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Discographies NA‑class

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Recent edit

• As far as my slight revert, I can explain several things:

1. I do not see how WP:BOLDTITLE applies because mention of the title doesn't sound right in the first sentence as is (if you can rework it though, more power to you).
2. The sources I listed clearly state that the songs I listed are all singles.
3. I do not see why a non-album single should have its own section.

All in all, if a few things seem out of place still, well, that's why the article has an {{underconstruction}} tag (and just for the record, I am not trying to own the article.) Erpert 02:43, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

1. The long-ago established consensus was not to bold the article's title in the lead of a discography article. This practice has been carried out in numerous, if not all, featured discography articles such as Audioslave discography and Faith No More discography.
2. You have not listed any sources claiming these songs are singles, and it's kind of bizarre to claim that you have. Please read Misplaced Pages's article Single (music), which clearly outlines and defines what a single is. It's a type of release that can be obtained independent of the parent album (if a parent album even exists). For example, here is where I can obtain the single for "Comeback Kid" and here is where I can obtain the single for "Tell 'Em". Where can I obtain the single for "Demons" or "End of the Line"? I don't see any physical or digital copies of any of the songs that you're adding, though Discogs (not considered a reliable source for Misplaced Pages, but is generally a good place to start) does show radio-promo copies of "Infinity Guitars", "Rill Rill" and "Riot Rhythm".
3. (A) "Irreplaceable" was not released as a single, and (B) it's common practice to separate out songs not released on an album by the band. For examples from featured discography articles, see Foo Fighters discography#Other appearances, Nine Inch Nails discography#Miscellaneous, Linkin Park discography#Other appearances and Smoking Popes discography#Other appearances.
4. Your "slight revert" also: changes the number of singles to 8 when there are 7 listed, but only 2 are truly singles; changes Gregory Kohn incorrectly back to Gregory Horn; incorrectly reintroduces a source that doesn't even mention Gregory Kohn, yet is being used to source the claim that he was the director for "Comeback Kid". Fezmar9 (talk) 08:10, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

• Okay, I added a source that clearly states that "Comeback Kid" was the official first single and that it was co-directed by Gregory Kohn (which you could have easily obtained from the "Comeback Kid" article, btw). Speaking of that, the "Demons" article has the actual single listed; and as for your suggestion to look at Single (music), that article hardly has any sources, so I don't really know how reliable that is. Also...

Is that a guideline though? If so, where is it? I'm not trying to be difficult, but I just don't see why you're making a big deal about this. Erpert 08:28, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

1. Nothing you're saying makes any logical sense to me anymore. When you say "which you could have easily obtained from the "Comeback Kid" article," that's exactly what I did. With this edit I took the exact same Stereogum story from the exact same article you did. You really need to be more careful when you mass revert someone's edits.
2. The article Demons (Sleigh Bells song) only states the song is a single because you're the only person who has edited the article. None of the four sources on that article call it a single. You also removed my notability tag there with no reason provided.
3. Speaking of removing something with no reason provided, you also removed all of the citation needed tags from this article. These songs were not released as singles as far as I can see. Above you said you already provided sources, but I sure don't see any. Now I'm challenging the information and requesting that sources be provided. If none can, the information will be removed.
4. I'm making a big deal about this because you are listing songs that are not singles as singles. It's about as intelligent as listing these songs as bananas. They're clearly not bananas, so they should not be listed as such. It shouldn't matter if there's a guideline (which there is) nor should it matter if Single (music) is lacking sources (it's linked in all single infoboxes and used in discussions to define a single, clearly its validity is supported by the community), I have provided more than adequate amounts of reasons for why this should not be.
5. I know that above you said you're not trying to own the article, but by reverting all of my edits without giving a reason or by completely avoiding the subject in conversation, you're behaving in a way that's similar to owning the article. Fezmar9 (talk) 17:23, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

• Excuse me, but I included an explanation in the edit summary of all the edits; did you just not read them? You just don't seem to care about my explanations for some reason, so I'm taking this to WP:3. (BTW, that "bananas" analogy is just that.) Erpert 00:55, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

• ....? Most of your edit summaries either say "oops" or "see talk page," but the talk page doesn't have any supporting explanations. For example, you removed the notability tag from the Demons article with a summary of See Talk:Sleigh Bells discography#Recent edit, but I don't see anywhere in this discussion where you state why the tag was removed. When you removed the citation needed tags from this article, you provided no edit summary, nor is there an explanation in this discussion. You added a category to this article with an edit summary of See talk page, but there's not a single mention of categories anywhere in this discussion. WP:IDHT is completely irrelevant since it pertains to consensus, not edit summaries. Fezmar9 (talk) 16:50, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

• I'm not going to keep re-explaining things to you, so let's just wait until someone gives a third opinion. Erpert 18:26, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

Hi. It looks like there are several questions here. First on the Bold Title: I don't think anything needs to be bold in the lede here. It's silly to bold " discography of the band" just to have something bolded, that doesn't add anything to the article. So my recommendation there is to just not bold anything. On what constitutes a single: These days, with digital promotional releases and such, the definition of single is not as straightforward as it once was. A single needs to have been published independently to the general public, and in my mind, needs to have been marketed as a separate product in some capacity. I don't know if we necessarily need a source to declare that it was a single, but if none at all can be located, then that is a very good hint that it was not a single in any meaningful sense. Consider whether it's even worth arguing over what to label something. If there was a single-like release that might not have been a fully fledged single, just note that in the article text. Tell the reader what the deal actually was, instead of trying to judge what to call something that secondary sources may not even have commented on one way or another. It's not our job to categorize the entire world, we can just tell people how something was and let them decide what to call it. Concentrate on the content, accusations of article ownership and conduct problems are generally counterproductive. Instead of throwing policies around, talk about why the content was added, and the thought processes behind it. Our guidelines are not magic spells to throw around, ultimately its up to us editors to decide what they mean, so listen to each other and only use the guidelines as input to guide you, not to try to shut down the other party. Hope this helps. Gigs (talk) 13:58, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

• Points taken. The cleanup I just did should be in line with this opinion. Erpert 15:01, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

• Except we're back at square one again with the singles issue. Gigs' definition of a single, which seems consistent with both the definition I gave above (albeit a more modern version) and the definition at Single (music), would not include "Infinity Guitars", "Rill Rill", "Demons" or "End of the Line". None of these songs were "published independently to the general public, and in my mind, needs to have been marketed as a separate product in some capacity." This is why the citation needed tags were added to the article—because even though I'm very familiar with the band, I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt to uncover some sort of evidence that these songs were released as singles that I had not yet seen. But as Gigs points out, if no sources can be provided (even though they shouldn't be required), it's "a very good hint that it was not a single in any meaningful sense." And now that I've had some time to think about it, I believe "Irreplaceable" should be removed entirely (and not moved to an "other appearances" section as I previously suggested) since it was recorded for a radio program but never officially released to the public, so it's really not part of Sleigh Bells' discography at all. Gigs mentions the phrase "single-like" that wasn't very well defined, but Erpert, how would you say that "Infinity Guitars", "Rill Rill", "Demons" or "End of the Line" are like a single? Fezmar9 (talk) 16:28, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

• Because the sources say they are. How long are you going to continue re-asking already answered questions? I figured you'd cease after the third opinion was given. Erpert 19:08, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

• Because what sources say? You've been mentioning sources for three days now but I fail to see any sources that you've added claiming that the songs in question were released as singles. The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. As Gibs pointed out, if there aren't any sources then they probably aren't singles. Fezmar9 (talk) 19:19, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

• You seem to be assuming that physical singles are the only kind of singles. How about digital singles, video-only singles or radio-only singles? (The latter constitutes much of the Billboard Hot 100 Airplay chart, for example.) Erpert 20:30, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

• I am not assuming that in the slightest. Sleigh Bells don't have any charted songs according to Billboard and a music video is distinctly different from a video single. For example, U2's song "Numb" was released as a video single, but their song "Red Hill Mining Town" was only released as a music video and is not considered a single. Fezmar9 (talk) 20:47, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

• I don't know if that distinction is 100% true, simply because video single doesn't have any sources (and it doesn't mention that distinction anyway; nor does music video, for that matter). Basically, if you think I'm wrong about music video and single being comparable, find a source that proves it and then add it; simple as that. I'm not trying to make this a battle, but you're dragging this on farther than it should be. Erpert 22:10, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

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