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Hi I am editing the article on Suzon Fuks, if I gained permission from the artist, may I use the statement on waterwheel in the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eusa65 (talk • contribs) 18:54, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Hello Pam!

The thing is, Kudpung has been putting immense pressure on me whenever I do not CSD/PROD a new page which (s)he thinks could have been tagged for deletion (sort of warned me 9 times for not CSD/PRODing new pages). This is seeming like a double-edged sword. I mean isn't that within my prerogatives to simply tag new pages with the appropriate tags and not nominate them for deletion if I sincerely feel that they deserve an article on Misplaced Pages? I am humbly trying to help wikipedia in whatever little way I can. But I am now in a terrible quandary. He keeps telling me to read WP:NPP but that page is very, very confusing (esp. when it comes to nominating pages for deletion) and the message is very foggy. I think from that page one message stands out which is, everything is at the reviewers' (plural) discretion. Mr T 12:31, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

The suggestion of 'pressure' is inaccurate, and there have never been any accusations of disruption. Standard polite messages with advice at which I suggest Mrt3366 may wish to accept with good faith. No one on Misplaced Pages needs to feel embarrassed to ask for help, but when the request finally comes in the form of a complaint. All users interpret the policies to their best, but the discretionary zone is, and must be very narrow. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:09, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

"The suggestion of 'pressure' is inaccurate" - how do you know that? I am the one who is feeling pressed. But, I am not saying you're unreasonable. No, I am simply saying that your reasonable warnings seem like pressure. And I want to know if there is anything I can do about it. I am already trying my best to understand the issues. I am not a deletionist. I am simply letting her know that I didn't mean to disrupt wikipedia and other problems, it's not about not nominating pages for CSD, the issue here is opposite, nominating pages for speedy deletion. I'd prefer if I weren't pushed to choose a side where I would either have to CSD/PROD every page others might feel unworthy of inclusion or have to totally avoid CSD/PRODing pages.

See, I CSD/PROD some and then I don't CSD/PROD some but I feel more guilty when CSD/PROD something incorrectly than when I do not CSD/PROD deletable pages. Mr T 13:31, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

As I said amongst all the other advice on my talk page, the simplest somution if you're not sure, is to move on and leave such pages for someone else to deal with. You're under no pressure whatsoever to attempt to tag every page - you can pick and choose as we all do. In fact I actually choose the difficult ones and leave the easy ones for the people who are still learning. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 14:05, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

But what if I feel that they deserve to be included in Misplaced Pages for some reason and do choose to leave them un-nominated? Now you're starting to sound like it's "my way or highway" (it's not that serious an issue). I need time. I am not here for any disingenuous agenda. If I leave everything and flee, then I will never learn ergo that's not a solution at all. I need to try. Please don't discourage me from trying! It's a collaborative process, isn't it? Nowhere does it say that one has to be a connoisseur/whiz before volunteering for a job. The only proviso I see in the dealings of Misplaced Pages is the willingness to learn. I am willing to learn. I will learn. Mr T 15:13, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

No, it's not 'My way, or the highway'; it's the Misplaced Pages way, or the highway. To be a good page patroller (or even an admin) you can't really decide for yourself whether you keep an article or nominate it for deletion - the rules have made that decision for you and you have to apply them whether you like them or not. And believe me, there are plenty of policies that I don't wholly agree with, but I have to obey the law and implement it. Now I think we should let Pam have her talk page back ;) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:23, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Wrong ! There is no "wikipedia way" as you put it. And even if so, I am at liberty to ignore a rule if it confuses me, hinders the maintenance of Misplaced Pages and leads me toward potentially damaging measures (CSD/PROD of salvageable/includible articles). Misplaced Pages rules are not applied consistently across Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages doesn't have firm rules. Rules are often bent, often ignored, even changed for the betterment of the project. Misplaced Pages is not a totalitarian institution. Rules in Misplaced Pages are not carved in stone. Their wording and interpretation are likely to change over time. And sometimes improving Misplaced Pages requires making an exception to a rule. I think it's better to refrain from nominating something for deletion if you're unsure (that way we are not trying to bring any major change) than nominating it. Misplaced Pages says perfection right from the word "go" is not required: wikipedia is a work in progress. Collaborative editing means that incomplete or poorly written first drafts can evolve over time into excellent articles.

Please do not push this far. Mr T 08:10, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

@PamD

"you should avoid trying to work on NPP." - I won't avoid trying to work on NPP. I am not a fool. I know what I am doing.
"Do not invent new criteria for CSD, because that is not how Misplaced Pages works" - I didn't wish to. It was just one mistake. I try to learn from my mistakes. The patrolling doesn't confuse me. WP:CIR does not mean "come down hard on someone as soon as they make a mistake". Misplaced Pages most certainly has a learning curve.
"I thought I'd replied here yesterday, but I guess I used "Preview" and then didn't hit "Save"!" - should one interpret this as you are not competent enough to edit wikipedia because you lack the necessary concentration to click on a button? No. Furthermore, I am not saying what Kudpung and you are saying to me, is summarily bogus. I am saying exactly the opposite. I am asking you to have a little bit of patience. And asking for advice, not repeated warnings. Mr T 14:36, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Árni Magnússon (politician)

As you check a thousand or two new articles every day and just might come across another Icelandic name...

Per WP:SUR, you forgot to add the sort value to the Icelandic category.Bgwhite (talk) 07:42, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out - I'd read the info but not digested the implication that having added a stub cat and a defaultsort I then needed to go back into the article to add the Icelandic sort key to the cat generated by the stub tag. Will try to remember next time round! PamD 07:04, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

In fact of course there are two Icelandic categories, the politicians and Category:Icelandic politician stubs (almost all of whom are sorting there by surname, and I'm sure it's not all my own work!). PamD 07:14, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

I hadn't thought about the stub template with a sortvalue before. Checked, there is no way to add a sort value there. Brazilian footballers are the only other "weird" name in which a WikiProject has decided to do something different. On a side note, a ($*#( spider just bit me 20 minutes ago and now I have a HUGE bump on my hand. Hmmm, I have this feeling to go swing between buildings now. Bgwhite (talk) 07:42, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

DB Move

It's my standard practice to just do the bit that actually needs an admin, i.e. the deletion, rather than the move as well. I normally pick these up working through the CSD lists, as just deletions waiting for action. I check my deletion logs daily, to see if anything has been recreated that shouldn't be, and I think few, if any, of these housekeeping speedies are not blue-linked within a day. Hope this helps, Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:30, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

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VIAF errors

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Nomination of M.G. Edwards for deletion

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/M.G. Edwards until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

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Sorry, this notification should have gone to User:Edworlds. Twinkle made a mistake because of the cut and paste move/history merge. Still, you can comment if you want to. :) — Mr. Stradivarius 05:08, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Bro (instrument)

Thanks Pam, I forgot ;) In ictu oculi (talk) 07:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Edmund Thomas (disambiguation)

You're right, my bad. --Meno25 (talk) 13:17, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit summary

Hi. Apologies, I'm new to AWB and wasn't aware that I could change it. I've worked out how to do it now. Thanks for pointing it out. Del_♉sion23 (talk) 17:40, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

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Page Curation newsletter - closing up!

Hey all :).

We're (very shortly) closing down this development cycle for Page Curation. It's genuinely been a pleasure to talk with you all and build software that is so close to my own heart, and also so effective. The current backlog is 9 days, and I've never seen it that low before.

However! Closing up shop does not mean not making any improvements. First-off, this is your last chance to give us a poke about unresolved bugs or report new ones on the talkpage. If something's going wrong, we want to know about it :). Second, we'll hopefully be taking another pass over the software next year. If you've got ideas for features Page Curation doesn't currently have, stick them here.

Again, it's been an honour. Thanks :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 12:26, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

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Michel Soymie

Hello PamD, sorry to mess up your work on the Michel Soymié (not Soymie) article I created earlier. It turns out that he is dead (2002), not a Living person - I don't know if there is an equivalent category Dead persons. Also I will need to ask an admin to change the name of the article to Michel Soymié with an e acute - I don't know whether that affects the Default Sort or whether accents are ignored anyway. Grateful for your advice/sorting out. Thanks. Opbeith (talk) 00:07, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Opbeith. Various replies:

• Please, when you mention an article on a talk page, make it a link - saves other editors a little time.
• You don't need to be an admin to move a page - I've just done it. Use the "Move" tag at the top of the article. Only problems are when there's already something at the title you want to move to (other than a redirect to the page being moved, with no edits after its creation): that's when you have to go to WP:RM if controversial, or use {{db-move}} if not.
• Forget "dead persons", but add categories for birth and death dates - I've done it. When stub-sorting I usually add sortkey and those cats all in one with this: {{subst:l|1924|2002|Soymie, Michel}} (that's a lower case "L" as name of the template, not a "1") For unknown dates but likely still to be living, leaving out both dates - {{subst:l|||Soymie, Michel}} - generates the cats you saw for this article previously: living and date of birth unknown.
• Sort key should definitely not have the accent: accented characters file weirdly, and the sort key should not include them.
• If you see a red link for something which your instinct says is likely to have a Misplaced Pages article, like Bibliotheque Nationale Française, then it's worth looking around to see if the article exists under a slightly different title. It does here: Bibliothèque nationale de France. I've now made a Redirect from your version (hence it's looking blue now), as a likely mistaken version! (In fact, looking at the wonderful list of redirects to that title, it's amazing you found a wrong name for it which wasn't already linked!)

Hope that helps! PamD 07:08, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Hello PamD - thanks for all that help, and at that hour of the morning too! Apologies for making unnecessary work for you, I found more extra material than I expected and was well past sleeptime, so I bailed out and left stuff for this morning (I need to go and put some accents in that I couldn't face last night as well).

The last time I was involved in trying to Move an article there was a controversy raging whether article titles should have accents, so I was being cautious. I'm certainly in favour of including accents - I picked up the subject from the BL Dunhuang list where there was no accent and I had the wrong pronunciation in my head until I found the Bibliotheque Muncipale site. That's helpful to know about the sort key and accents - I've created a few articles with accented titles and I noticed that when Sort Keys were added they never included accents - I didn't understand Sort Key but I suspected there might be an issue there.

The combination sort key and categories tip is very handy - I'll lodge a copy in at my Talk Page as an aide-memoire.

I'm a pretty messy operator, definitely not librarian material, so I'm very grateful for your tidying up behind me!

All the best. Opbeith (talk) 09:10, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

spider stacy

hi pam, i see you edited spider stacy's wiki page again. Please let me know what your problems are with the passages you deleted. many thanks, louise stacy Louise stacy (talk) 01:39, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can see I have never edited the page Spider Stacy. (When you refer to a page on a talk page, please provide a link as a courtesy to the editor you are addressing and others who may read the talk page). Please check your information. I see that you made a major edit with the misleading edit summary "returned page after edit by unknown", after it had been edited by a large number of different editors, both named and IP, since it was last anything like that size in Nov 2011: please make sure that your edit summaries are accurate, and that you do not remove other editors' sourced contributions. I see that you share a surname with the subject: if you are related to him please read and be aware of WP:COI. Thanks. PamD 07:27, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Hello

Hi PamD, Thanks for the polite talk-note on Misplaced Pages policy, & your contributions to the Peter Vogel stub. --winterstein (talk) 16:06, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Hina Khan (Pakistan)

Regarding the "notability" and "orphan" tags in the above-mentioned article, I have now inserted some more sources to help establish notability. I have also posted a more elaborate explanation on the article's talk page. Please review my response there. Regarding the "orphan" tag, I have added a link to the Fareeda Kokikhel Afridi article. Please discuss the issues on the article's talk page so that they may be resolved. Regards. OrangesRyellow (talk) 10:01, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

If we click Google News right now, and expand the section listing news reports on Malala Yousafzai, we find that google is giving a link to our above-mentioned article even when it is stub class. Is that enough to take off the notability tag?OrangesRyellow (talk) 18:08, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

The Google argument absolutely doesn't work: its computers have found our article, that's all - nothing there to give any "notability". But the four newspaper refs probably just about add up to it, though I worry it's a bit like WP:BLP1E. I've removed the tag. I've also formatted one of the references properly - please do your readers the courtesy of giving full information for all your references (name of newspaper, date published, author if stated, date retrieved - because online resources can change): they should not have to follow a link just to find out where the information comes from, whether it's a well-respected source or not. Please also note that the "See also" section isn't the place to list all the other articles you think are related. Create a "navbox" template for "Women's rights in Pakistan" or something, but please don't list so many articles this way. Thanks. PamD 18:40, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

I have expanded the refs as you suggested. Will add some more refs when I get around to expanding that article. Thanks for taking off the notability tag. I like the 'navbox' idea and though I am not familiar with the mechanics of creating a template, will give it a try...OrangesRyellow (talk) 19:29, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

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Talkback

ToniSant (talk) 14:10, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

University of Nottingham Students' Union Council

Hi, I'm writing up a motion to the UoN SU Council to promote the use and publication of media under free licences. As a UoN student/alumnus, I was wondering if you'd like to give your input.

Please comment at commons:Commons:Village pump#Motion to University of Nottingham Students' Union Council.

-mattbuck (Talk) 22:45, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Redirect

Hey Pam D

Thank you for your advice on my article on Stephen A. Schrum however I am a little confused as to what you mean as to how I go about adding the "Redirect" from "Stephen Schrum" - that you told me to, any further information of how I go about this would be helpful.

LydiaRDoyle1992 (talk) 12:39, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

I just managed to create it. I am getting use to editing wikipedia : )

LydiaRDoyle1992 (talk) 13:43, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

A barnstar for you!

	The Special Barnstar
	Thank you so very much for all the generous help you've been giving me and my students. -- ToniSant (talk) 09:38, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you so much - it's nice to see a UK university teaching students about Misplaced Pages, and I hope that some of them will continue to edit the encyclopedia even after the module is over. PamD 09:44, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Notability

Hey PamD

Due to the fact your advice has been so helpful I thought I connect you regarding my main problem at the moment. My article has been given a notability tag, I am in the process of trying to prevent my article from being deleted. Looking at number 4 of the Notability guidelines for academics it states if the person has authored several books that are widely used as textbooks, although Stephen A. Schrum has published several books would adding more details about these books more the article more notable? Also I have discovered this website which was suggested on wikipedia page for book citations world cat in which the date of the top is the year he was born.

Thank you for your help.

LydiaRDoyle1992 (talk) 16:41, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Lydia, well done for finding that Worldcat record - I think you could add "(born 1957)" and cite the Worldcat record as your reference. Then add Category:1957 births. (Hint: if you want to mention a category in a talk page, without adding that talk page to the category, add a colon as in ].)

You've also now got his middle name, so can usefully add that to the opening sentence - this tends to include full names even when the subject never uses them.

And you have some more publications which you can add to your article, with publisher and ISBN details (click on each book in turn to get full info). Adding the ISBN, if you format it right - the letters ISBN in caps, then space, then the number - makes an automatic link, which is always an asset to your article. Ah, actually looking at them, two are his dissertations - but that's more information about him which you could usefully add, sourced to Worldcat. But the other one is in 238 libraries: can you find a review of it anywhere? (Worldcat hasn't got any linked).

You may still struggle to get him "notable", though. The rules are very strange, in that any footballer who has once played a single professional game counts as "notable" while academics have quite a high barrier to cross.

Check your spelling for "CALLAB-L". When you spell it right and Google it there are quite a few hits and one or two might be worth citing, like page 230 of https://journals.ku.edu/index.php/jdtc/article/viewFile/1923/1886. Does it still exist? Or is it historic info? (Do any listservs still exist?)

Good luck! PamD 18:10, 28 October 2012 (UTC)