Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:01, 16 November 2012

House of du Souich

House of du Souich (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

This article appears to be a complete fabrication. When I came across the article, I assumed that some of the idioms and spellings (fr:Duc for Duke, fr:Picardie for Picardy, and so on) indicated that it was a translation from a French source, and might quite probably have an article the French language Misplaced Pages, analogous to fr:Maison de Savoie, it:Casa Savoia and House of Savoy. There is no such article fr:Maison de Souich/fr:Maison du Souich. Le Souich is in the Nord-Pas-de-Calais région, not Picardy. Then there is this assertion:

"The House of du Souich is an ancient and illustrious French family. Connected by birth or marriage to a great number of the noble houses of France, the du Souich family reigned over northeastern France for hundreds of years as Lords of le Souich and Amiens as well as the surrounding territories."

For such a purportedly important noble family, there is as striking paucity of available online references. While there is a real place of this name, and a number of people with the surname "du Souich" or "de Souich", it would seem to me apparent that there is no such thing as a noble "House of du Souich". Shirt58 (talk) 08:59, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

KEEP

I must apologize for removing the two warnings that you posted yesterday. I am new to editing on Wiki and was unaware of how to reply to you about your concerns or what to do about the warnings.

This is not at all a fabrication. I am a member of this family. There are a number of sources related to the history of the du Souich lineage and I have marked as many as I can find online for the moment, as well as the books which have a great deal more information.

As to my use of duc rather than duke, etc, I simply wanted to use the two designations in this article. One is the French way of expressing the title, the other the English translation. If that is an error on Wiki, kindly let me know. My goal was to avoid repetition and to add a little flavor to the writing.

As to your concern that a family such as this would be known, well, that is simply not true in 'post-monarchy' Europe. There are thousands of noble families that have drifted off into the sunset after the abolision of their respective monarchies. I clearly explain the connection between the grand origins of the family and their noble but by no means royal destination in the 20th century. See the section Short History. That is, in fact, part of the interest in the family. A lesser known story.

Deleting this article would amount to cenorship of information for no just cause. Everything written on this page is factual. It took a great deal of research (months) on genelogical sites (which are sited, although in French), books, articles, archives, etc at the Bibliotheque Nationale de France to put all this together. This information is the beginnings of an eventual book on the subject. I wrote the page in English because the book will also be in English.

Le Souich is on the boarder of Pas de Calais, which if you continued to read a little further down you'd see is also called Picardy (Picardie) in France. And historically the region was always referred to as "Picardie" and not Pas de Calais (Nord or otherwise).

As to the point about the illustrious family, this was the case before the Revolution in what was called the Ancien Régime. From French history we know that many families lost their prominence at this period. That doesn't make the history false. It makes it less known, which is all the more reason it include the page.

There are many books (not digital) referencing the family. And in any ancient archives of the French Noblesse the du Souich family is present. Several of these books are included in the references.

One final thought, the name is properly spelt du Souich, so anytime you see de Souich, it is either false or a typo. The de, de la or du in French mean the same as di or van in other European countries - the family is landed gentry. It means 'of' a certain place. By virtue of the name, then, this page is not, as you say, a "complete fabrication". It is not a fabrication at all.

If you have some factual evidence to dispute my facts, kindly present them. Otherwise, I'd greatly appreciate if you'd remove this rather offense warning which basically states that I'm lying.

Many thanks in advance.--France2007 (talk) 12:50, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Keep

My point is more administrative than factual: it seems strange to me that someone who did a quick google search could lodge such a claim against what appears to be a thorough article. The beauty of wikipedia, if I'm not mistaken, is that information that has hitherto been ignored or forgotten can find the light of day. Not every bit of information is on the Internet already. Seems to me like the author knows what he is talking about (full disclosed, I know the author) and it seems contrary to Misplaced Pages principles to call someone a liar or their work a hoax without facts to support the claim. My two cent. Ollivia Morin du Souich. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.34.61.48 (talk) 14:33, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Keep

Hi, I just saw that this page was created and was set as 'Article for deletion'. So I'm just posting to testif that the article is correct.

Le Souich is in the department of Pas-de-Calais, Region Nord pas-de-calais, administratively. But this is not relevant to the House of du Souich because the family is from Amiens which is in the Picardie. The village is at the border between the Pas de Calais and Somme departments which respectively belong to Nord pas de calais region and Picardie region. Check out Google Maps for geographic position : The du Souich family comes from all of these regions and departments. Although Nord Pas de Calais is a very recent denomination of the land from the 1789 revolution. The old names of the territory are Flandre, Artois, Picardie, Champagne, Hainaut, Rethel, Ponthieu, Valois, Vermandois. Which back in the days where called Provinces and had their counts and Lords. Armorial web site lists all these families :

Interesting enough the actual commune borders (city district border) are common with the Department borders AND Region borders.

Additionally, there are large number of books at the Bibliothèque de France which are not yet digitised and speak to the origins of this family. Some of those are included, I see, in the references section. As a Frenchman, I can assure you that not even half of our noblesse have wikipedia pages. Only those that were created or continued by the new regime under the Empire and not the ancient régime. You may find some over the internet listing all the relations between families. On the following page they talk about the wedding of Lord Jean du Souich.

The House of du Souich is related as explained in the article to other noble families that already has wikipedia pages like the House of Chatillon : http://fr.wikipedia.org/Liste_de_maisons_(g%C3%A9n%C3%A9alogie) or the House of France back in the middle ages.

The link provided in the reference number 6, shows a lot of the genealogy of the du Souich family. All links to the Royal family can be found through reference number 4.

In addition to this article, we can add to the notable ancestors, "Floridas du Souich", who died in Azincourt Battle on the 25th of October 1415. The name appears in the book "AZINCOURT" of Gérard BACQUET published in 1977 :

1. https://maps.google.fr/maps?q=le+souich&hnear=Le+Souich,+Pas-de-Calais,+Nord-Pas-de-Calais&gl=fr&t=m&z=14
2. http://www.memodoc.fr/tablesDesNoms-table-44.html
3. http://books.google.fr/books?id=psDrF0ShnbAC&pg=RA1-PA322&lpg=RA1-PA322&dq=seigneur+du+souich&source=bl&ots=pNERFxxLzR&sig=wizfQ3mRxDjQlmwZqGBv6UlJhQQ&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=VVOmULKvJYqp0AXS54H4BA&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=seigneur%20du%20souich&f=false
4. http://membres.multimania.fr/ancienregime/azincourtchevalier.htm

• AfD debates (Not yet sorted)
• AfD debates