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Revision as of 21:06, 14 December 2012

	Female genital mutilation is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones Date Process Result September 19, 2011 Featured article candidate Not promoted

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Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17

This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

Bias

This article should also include prepucectomy in a separate definition or Type 0/-1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.96.68.199 (talk) 12:26, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Articles are based on reliable sources. The types are from a source. Johnuniq (talk) 02:22, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

that a source is reliable doesn't make your article about it not not NPOV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.218.249.191 (talk) 02:05, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

MGM

What about male genital mutilation? Shouldn't we add that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.190.107.179 (talk) 22:50, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Why isn't the removal of the clitoris called "clitoris removal" if the removal of the penis is called "penis removal" and slicing the penis head and performing an operation on it is called "circumcision"? It seems to me that this is a double standard. For women wikipedia uses the term "mutilation", but for men they use less harsh sounding word "removal" or the more medical term "circumcision"? Personally, I don't care which way one goes but it should be consistent. If a mans penis is removed and it's called "removal" than the removal of a clitoris should be called "removal" as well. If a woman's is call "mutilation" than a mans should be called that also...Instead the wikipedia page redirects the viewer to "circumcision"...which makes no sense and is not consistent. I'm aware body parts are different between men and women, but the clitoris and the penis are actually very similar and this is an area where there doesn't seem to be any other reason than political bias to call one "mutilation" and the other "removal".

72.89.197.168 (talk) 06:14, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

{{requested move/dated|NewName}}

Female genital mutilation → NewName –

For purposes as mentioned before, I believe this page is based in extreme bias and a Western ethnocentric thought. Even the title, "Female genital mutilation", is an extremely negative and value-laden title, reflecting a limited Western view. An easy way to work towards correcting this would be a simple name change: I suggest the title is changed to "Female circumcision", and the following use of the appropriate terms should be swapped.

For example, the article could be titled "Female circumcision", while the article begins, "Also known as female genital mutilation..." This is a small, easy step to curbing Western bias.

In the future, I believe heavier editing is worth consideration, merging the "Female circumcision" and "Circumcision" articles, and proceeding by separating between female and male circumcision within the same article. The current existence of this separation is based in very gender-normative thought (almost understandably so, given that it pertains to specific biological properties of the genders), but this doesn't mean that the articles should be separated as "Circumcision", meaning males, and "Female genital mutilation".

Thanks for the consideration! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.164.112.252 (talk • contribs) 20:45, 26 July 2012

As many other threads on this talk page have shown, we don't name it due to our own viewpoint, we name it according to what the reliable sources call it. The article is based on the sources, and so is the name. And merging both female and male circumcision into the same article makes no sense at all - they are really quite different practices (and the resulting article would be too long by far.) OohBunnies! (talk) 20:55, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

al-Qaeda is considered a terrorist organization by most sources, but we don't call it that in the lead because it's a NPOV violation. The current title is a Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view violation. The countries that practice this procedure do not consider the procedure mutilation anymore than western countries consider male circumcision to be mutilation. I'm in support for a move to a more neutral name. ScienceApe (talk) 21:58, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I have removed the template as it was not placed correctly (need to specify proposed new name),and for the more fundamental reason that the first step should be to discuss the matter here. If it were believed that there is a problem with the current set of editors here, ask at WP:HELPDESK for advice; they would probably suggest asking at WP:NPOVN for opinions on whether a discussion about a particular article were not compatible with policies such as WP:NPOV. As OohBunnies said, this has been discussed before. Please ask if you can't find those previous discussions (see this page and the Archives box near the top). The reason for mentioning that is that we do not repeat discussions over and over and over. Please address the issues from the last serious discussion, and only start a new discussion if a new viewpoint is available. Johnuniq (talk) 22:22, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree that this article should be renamed to "Female Circumcision". Otherwise the article on male circumcision should be renamed "Male Genital Manipulation". The exact tissue removed is not tremendously important. The terminology used by "reliable (western) sources" is not as important as gender neutrality. If the situation was reversed, women would not stand for it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.141.108.240 (talk) 01:25, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME and other guidance clearly support the current titles of the respective articles. Our sensibilities do not carry weight. -- Scray (talk) 03:50, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's "common names" policy should not be employed to buttress obvious gender politics like this. FGM is used as often as female circumcision, why is the latter used anyway? And why is it that cutting a mans penis off is simply called "penis removal"? Why only sterile, medical terms when a man's genitals are ruined and yet the term mutilation is used when a females genitals are ruined? If a male circumcision were commonly called "mutilation" and FGM were called "clitoris removal" that would probably be considered outrageous.

Please be reminded that Misplaced Pages's policy against original research applies to article talk pages as well as the articles. Your argument needs to be grounded in Misplaced Pages policy and backed by reliable sources for it to carry any weight. This article reflects the common name found in reliable sources. Zad68 05:37, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I was indirectly objecting to and questioning whether "common name" and "used by reliable western sources" holds more weight than "neutral point of view". I think the latter is more important than the two former excuses for sustaining this biased naming policy. Is this correct or incorrect? Does wikipedia actually hold "common naming" to a higher standard than "neutral point of view"? This sounds like the urban dictionary rather than what wikipedia should be, a fair approach to information handling. Another point is that the term "female circumcision" is indeed "commonly used". Is this "independent research"? I don't think so. I'm actually debating and questioning whether this article holds to wikipedias standards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.89.197.168 (talk • contribs) 06:07, 2 December 2012‎

The "neutral" in NPOV means that WP must represent reliable sources in a neutral manner, i.e. without introducing (or giving undue weight to) a POV not present in those sources. If reliable sources commonly use the term, then that's what we do (so, the two principles are not in conflict in the manner you suggest). Whether we like it or not does not matter - the WP:NPOV policy also says that WP "Articles mustn't take sides". -- Scray (talk) 06:28, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

So, essentially what you are saying is that naming things of symmetrical emotional damage with words of symmetrical emotional weight is irrelevant, and that by doing that we would be "taking sides?"...?...that what takes priority in wikipedia is appropriation of information, no matter how asymmetrical, and it does not matter if this is pointed out on demonstrative grounds. (because that's considered "independent research"). And so if many (cherry picked) "reliable" sources say "2+2=3", the mathematical argument that "2+2=4", by demonstrative proof, has no authority at wikipedia (because that would be "independent research" and "taking sides"?). I think this is a horrible misapplication of the original intent of those rules. I don't think they were put in place to back up obvious political and cultural bias against a particular group. Misplaced Pages may call male gential mutilation "penis removal" but I refuse to do this as long as female gential mutilation is called " mutilation". A mutilation is a mutilation or it is not, it is not relative to the sex of the victim...this isn't "taking sides". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.89.197.168 (talk • contribs) 11:31, 2 December 2012

its funny

it's funny how this is called mutilation with "how many women affected" and all this... where as male genital mutilation (circumcision) doesn't have 'number of men affected'. I wonder if we could change that. Juliegoldman77 (talk) 08:32, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

The articles are named according to reliable sources, according to WP policy and consensus. See"Requested move" section above for just one of many examples, here and at Talk:Circumcision, where this has already been discussed. -- Scray (talk) 10:33, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Sylvia Tamale

I'm surprised by the prominence given to Tamale's views in this article--half a paragraph of the lead section seems like a lot of space to give any one scholar on an issue that thousands of commentators have chimed in on. Perhaps the lead section could be rewritten to summarize various trends of thought in the scholarship generally? I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject to do this myself, unfortunately, but thought I'd put the suggestion out there. -- Khazar2 (talk) 17:17, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Beating a Dead Horse: FGM?

First, let me state that I almost never edit Misplaced Pages and am just attempting to get into the habit, so hello! If I'm wrong here, please point it out, thanks. Secondly, I personally believe that FGM is just that - genital mutilation. However, I am of the opinion that the practice should be referred to as "female genital cutting." I know this has been gone over a million times, but skimming through the archive, I can't really see a point where this was resolved. If this shouldn't be brought up again, please let me know.

So, my reasoning is as follows.

1. FGM is very POV. It implies disapproval of the practice, and while I think many of us do disapprove, we should be a bit less biased.

2. FGC is NPOV - Multiple pages I've seen that aim for a more...clinical tone? use this term. Womenshealth.gov, for example (http://www.womenshealth.gov/publications/our-publications/fact-sheet/female-genital-cutting.cfm)

3. FGC does not downplay the very real harms of the practice. I feel like, again, from skimming, a lot of the arguments for the FGM title come position of wanting to point out that this procedure is not medically needed and is quite harmful. While circumcision might downplay these things (since male circumcision has a pretty good public opinion track record in the US) I don't think FGC does.

Am I wrong? Anyways, if this shouldn't come up again, let me know. Thanks Wikipedians. Hopefully, I'll see you around again soon. 75.36.161.164 (talk) 04:59, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Hello. To answer your question in general I'll point you towards the Misplaced Pages policy over NPOV: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view, the specific sections that clarify the meaning of NPOV in the Misplaced Pages sense, and that apply to this case more specifically, are the sections "Naming" and the section on "Due and Undue Weight". To sum them up, the goal of being purely neutral in wording is balanced against the need to have clarity and the need to give due weight to the sources. In this case, FGM is the predominant medical term used in the literature (for instance by the World Health Organization, which is the classification used in the article). For more info on the debates specifically you can read up on the Request for Comment that led to this page maintaining it's current name: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Female_genital_mutilation/Archive_6#RfC:_how_should_we_refer_to_the_practice.3F. Hope this is helpful info. Vietminh (talk) 18:27, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

the WHO calls it female genital cutting http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/86/4/07-042093/en/index.html edit article to be in accordance with reliable sources please. (also if you read the sources past their titles you'll find that circumcision is the most common name) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.218.249.191 (talk) 21:05, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

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