Talk:Cosima Wagner: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 12:02, 30 December 2012 editMichael Bednarek (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users85,071 editsm →Infobox: (sign).← Previous edit		Revision as of 12:08, 30 December 2012 edit undoPigsonthewing (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Event coordinators, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, File movers, IP block exemptions, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers, Template editors266,334 edits →Infobox: rNext edit →
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	::::::I hope that your comment about "''sniping and counter-accusation''" isn't a response to me validly refuting false assertions. That adding an infobox gives the article machine readability which otherwise does not exist is irrefutable, whatever your opinion of its value. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); ]; ]</span> 12:56, 29 December 2012 (UTC)		::::::I hope that your comment about "''sniping and counter-accusation''" isn't a response to me validly refuting false assertions. That adding an infobox gives the article machine readability which otherwise does not exist is irrefutable, whatever your opinion of its value. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); ]; ]</span> 12:56, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::"Machine readability": doesn't {{Tl\|Persondata}} do that? -- ] (]) 12:01, 30 December 2012 (UTC)		:::::::"Machine readability": doesn't {{Tl\|Persondata}} do that? -- ] (]) 12:01, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
			::::::::Only in a very limited way: for far fewer parameters, and in a way unique to Misplaced Pages, so not understood by generic tools and parsers. The machine readability provided by infoboxes uses opens standards found across the web. There is consensus to use the later standards in Misplaced Pages. Also, because persondata is hidden, it is often not updated when article content changes. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); ]; ]</span> 12:08, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Revision as of 12:08, 30 December 2012

Cosima Wagner is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on December 24, 2012.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
June 26, 2012	Peer review	Reviewed
July 23, 2012	Featured article candidate	Promoted

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The Festivals under Cosima

I've put this section into a box because it's not really about Cosima and I wasn't sure whether it would be better here or in the Bayreuth festival article. Please let me know if this causes problems in browsers other than firefox or IE.--Dogbertd (talk) 11:30, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

"Wagner, née de Flavigny, from 1844 born as Cosima Liszt"

Is that opening sentence intended to make sense? And in which language might that be? Is this Flavigny business plain old-fashioned vandalism? Varlaam (talk) 04:04, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

She was not "born de Flavigny"; that was her mother's maiden name. According to Liszt's biographer Derek Watson she was baptised "Francesca Gaetana Cosima Liszt". I have corrected the order of names and other misinformation in the opening paragraph. I am about to embark on a major article expansion and refurbishment, so much will change anyway over the next few weeks. Brianboulton (talk) 14:10, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Infobox

I recently added an infobox to this article. My edit has just been reverted, for no given reason. The infobox should be restored. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:34, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Andy. While the article was TFA an infobox was added, removed, added again and removed again. Unsatisfactory, I agree, since the only justifications given for adding or removing were through (generally unhelpful) edit summaries. Changes likely to be contentious should always be raised on the talkpage before being implemented.

As I'm sure you know, WP:INFOBOX states: The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article. In this case, there was no infobox in place when I began the article's expansion, and I was effectively the sole editor responsible for the expansion, though I invited participation. The involvement of other editors came during the peer review and FAC stages; the question of an infobox never, so far as I can remember, arose during these discussions. The assumed consensus, obviously, was that an infobox was not necessary in this case.

You obviously think that an infobox would enhance this article; let us have the arguments for this. No consensus is absolute or eternal, but let us have the discussions first, before taking action. Brianboulton (talk) 00:25, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, congratulations on your achievements with this article. Yes, I'm aware of what WP:INFOBOX says, which is why I initiated the "D" stage of WP:BRD; neither of those pages require discussion before bold editing. If the inclusion of an infobox wasn't discussed during peer review or FAC (where, for reasons I've never been able to fathom, the FAC community generally decline to consider such matters), then that can't reasonably be assumed as consensus not to include one. The benefits of an infobox in this article, as for the many thousands of other articles that include one, are that it summarises key information from elsewhere in the article, including material not suitable for the lede, for the convenience of readers wanting a quick overview, not least those accessing the collapsed view on mobile devices. It makes that information available as machine-readable metadata on the page; and for use in dbpedia. And it will, shortly, provide an interface with Wikidata. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:11, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

My difficulty on the consensus question is that, as I have indicated, I was pretty much a one-man editorial team in bringing the article up to FAC standard, and one man doth not a consensus make. I agree that the PR/FAC consensus against an infobox is implied rather than actual; one way of testing this would be to ask the participants in these reviews whether they are happy with the addition of an infobox. Or at any rate to point them to this discussion and invite them to express a view. On the merits of an infobox in this particular case (leaving aside the zealots' justification that every article in all circumstances must have one) I have looked at your proposed infobox. Would a reader wanting a "quick overview" really learn from it anything significant beyond what is in the first paragraph of the lead? Place of schooling and place of cremation don't really help to understand her; this requires a reading of the article text. The danger is that infoboxes can stand as an alternative to reading the text, and thereby give casual readers an incomplete and sometimes inaccurate picture of the subject. Brianboulton (talk) 17:23, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I had a most helpful exchange recently with Pigsonthewing/Andy about info-boxes for cricket and political articles, which I am gratefully following up elsewhere on WP. We should, I am sure, have info-boxes when they add pithy and useful information to help the visiting reader, but when they add nothing much (as here and for most classical music articles) it is a waste of useful screen space, and I support the consensus to eschew them. Before I retired I ran an intranet for HMG, and not wasting "real estate" (groan at jargon, but point taken) was a prime requirement.– Tim Riley (talk) 17:55, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

The suggestion that the infobox "added nothing much" is baseless, and is clearly disproved by the explanation I gave above. There is no "consensus to eschew them", as I have pointed out to you previously. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:39, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

P.S. Misplaced Pages is not an HMG intranet and conserving "real estate" is not a consideration - much less a "prime requirement" - in laying out our articles. Even if it were, the version of the page with an infobox is, on my netbook (for example), 950x13340 = 12673000 pixels. The infobox is 275x722 = 198550, of which the image is 266x400 = 106400. In other words, only 0.7271% - less than three quarters of one percent - of the page's real estate is taken up by the non-image part of the infobox. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:22, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

"the PR/FAC consensus against an infobox" is not "implied"; it is non-existent. Individually, FAC contributors have no more - or less - say in this than any other editor; collectively, they have none. The suggestion that "the danger is that infoboxes can stand as an alternative to reading the text" is a non-sequitur. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:39, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I am hoping this discussion will not turn into the kind of sniping and counter-accusation that has disfigured other discussions on the suitability or otherwise of infoboxes. For the record, this is how I see things:

The opinion that in this case an infobox adds nothing much to the article is not "baseless", and is not "disproved" by any argument that you present. These are genuine differences of opinion.
I agree that in general FAC contributors have no more say than other contributors; in this case, however, they and the peer reviewers represent the only group apart from myself who have given detailed consideration to the article. I am quite happy for the discussion, here, to expand beyond this group and for an explicit consensus to form, whether for or against the addition of an infobox. I don't propose to lead that discussion, but will accept any outcome.
In advance of such an expanded discussion, while you may reasonably argue that there is no clear consensus against an infobox, it is equally clear that there is as yet no consensus for adding one – there was no such box before the TFA. I believe that the status quo should prevail until the matter is resolved. Brianboulton (talk) 12:35, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

I hope that your comment about "sniping and counter-accusation" isn't a response to me validly refuting false assertions. That adding an infobox gives the article machine readability which otherwise does not exist is irrefutable, whatever your opinion of its value. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:56, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

"Machine readability": doesn't {{Persondata}} do that? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:01, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Only in a very limited way: for far fewer parameters, and in a way unique to Misplaced Pages, so not understood by generic tools and parsers. The machine readability provided by infoboxes uses opens standards found across the web. There is consensus to use the later standards in Misplaced Pages. Also, because persondata is hidden, it is often not updated when article content changes. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:08, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

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