Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 03:21, 22 May 2006

Mediation Case: 2006-05-18 Iraq War

Please observe Misplaced Pages:Etiquette and Talk Page Etiquette in disputes. If you submit complaints or insults your edits are likely to be removed by the mediator, any other refactoring of the mediation case by anybody but the mediator is likely to be reverted. If you are not satisfied with the mediation procedure please submit your complaints to Misplaced Pages talk:Mediation Cabal.

Request Information

Request made by: Zer0faults 20:49, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Where is the issue taking place?

...Talk:Iraq_War#Opening_Paragraph

Who's involved?

...Myself Zer0faults 20:57, 18 May 2006 (UTC), User:Mr. Tibbs and to a lesser extent User:Wombdpsw

What's going on?

...User:Mr. Tibbs insists the casus belli for the Iraq War was WMD. However the term casus belli states "formal declaration of war" the closest thing being [http://italy.usembassy.gov/pdf/other/H.J.Res.114_RDS.pdf HJ Res 114(PDF) which is the Congressional document "To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq". He instead keeps posting links to what Powell said to the UN via CNN interviews and articles. The whole discussion is encompassed in trying to find a way to make the Iraq War articles opening paragraphs NPOV. I have tried finding middle grounds by offering to state all reasons for war, or none, and simply added that there were reasons other then WMD. None of those 3 compromises worked as he insists the opening paragraph he wrote stays the way he wrote it. He has even reverted stuff by User:Wombdpsw without stating a reason in the history.

What would you like to change about that?

...I would like User:Mr. Tibbs to at consider a middle ground, its WMD as reason and only reason or nothing it seems.

If you'd prefer we work discreetly, how can we reach you?

...webmaster@anarchys99.com however discreetly isnt particularly necessary.

Would you be willing to be a mediator yourself, and accept a mediation assignment in a different case?

This is, following the Categorical Imperative, the idea that you might want to do

what you expect others to do. You don't have to, of course, that's why it's a question.

...Sure if I know of the topic and feel I won't have a bias.

Mediator response

Evidence

Please report evidence in this section with {{Misplaced Pages:Mediation_Cabal/Evidence}} for misconduct and {{Misplaced Pages:Mediation_Cabal/Evidence3RR}} for 3RR violations. If you need help ask a mediator or an advocate. Evidence is of limited use in mediation as the mediator has no authority. Providing some evidence may, however, be useful in making both sides act more civil.
Misplaced Pages:Etiquette: Although it's understandably difficult in a heated argument, if the other party is not as civil as you'd like them to be, make sure to be more civil than him or her, not less.

The following comment was offensive and used by User:Mr. Tibbs:

"Again you are being purposely obtuse so you can editwar your POV into the article. Stop it"

he then went on to state:

"I have made no personal attacks. However I have ceased to assume good faith and realize full well what you are doing. Which is Purposely being obtuse about "casus belli" a term that I readded to the article in the first place. And Purposely distorting what HJ Res 114 is. And it's sad that I have to cease assuming good faith, but assume good faith does not mean "bend over""

So I have been called obtuse, and then accused of attempting to "Purposely distorting what HJ Res 114 is" and finally User:Mr. Tibbs has admitted that he will "cease assuming good faith" Even though he has never even attempted a compromise. --Zer0faults 22:24, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Compromise offers

This section is for listing and discussing compromise offers.

State all the reasons listed in HJ Res 114 in the opening paragraphs. State none of the reasons for going to war that appear in HJ Res 114. Specifically state the full reason in HJ Res 114 for WMD's being a threat, which is: they may be used on his own population, given to terrorists or used against US interests or Armed forces. Find another term other then casus belli as the pages stated definition does not match its use.

Comments by others

I would like the mediator to be aware that a very similiar situation just happened on 2003 Invasion of Iraq. In fact a vote was attempted to try and cease the edit war. A vote on the same issue was also conducted on the Iraq War page. Despite the community consensus showed by the vote Zer0faults continued to revert claiming that a "majority on talk page is not suitable grounds for removal". I think a similar straw poll could also easily resolve this dispute, but I am concerned that given Zero's history he will again refuse to abide by it. I would also like to note that I am unwilling to argue endlessly on various talkpages like Zero apparently wants. Also note the editwars on these pages regarding the same "Part of the War on Terror" phrase: Waziristan War, United States invasion of Afghanistan and similiar articles listed on this template: Template:War on Terrorism. -- Mr. Tibbs 21:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Really all thats need here is a simple straw poll initiated and monitored by an Admin Stating "Users who think the casus belli of the 2003 Invasion of Iraq was WMD" and another column for those who don't. But I am unwilling to let an intro that was forged by a group effort to be churned up so flippantly. -- Mr. Tibbs 21:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

While using the talk page of the article in question to solve a dispute is encouraged to involve a larger audience, feel free to discuss the case below if that is not possible. Other mediators are also encouraged to join in on the discussion as Misplaced Pages is based on consensus.

Discussion

Unfortunatly I will not adhere to a straw poll since too many times I have seen users state information that is not factual on both sides. Mr. Tibbs himself during that straw poll in 2003 invasion of Iraq even questioned if a user knew what they were voting for, so I am sure he sees this happening. The problem is unfortunatly that Anoranza and Mr. Tibbs have decided to go around to all articles that contain the information "war on terror" and added : US Dubbed , US Coined, (this term is disputed) etc to those articles without discussions. Perhaps they felt that since people in one article though the term was in dispute that the non binding straw poll then held domain over all other articles. Oddly enough Anoranza has stated Afghanistan was part of the War On Terror but Iraq was not, then continued to change Afghanistan to state the term was disputed. This is another example of people voting to get across a political agenda instead of to input factual information into the articles. I have tried 3 times to reach a middle ground with Mr. Tibbs however he states constantly that he will not accept any changes that do not particularly state WMD's as the casus belli. He has even gone as far as to state the Congressional resolution "To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq" is not valid for casus belli because Powell did not state all those reasons in front of the UN, however he fails to see that reasons put before the UN wouldnt have to be in a formal declaration of war for the US.

I am not against stating that WMD were a heavy influence, however casus belli refers to the "formal declaration of war" and HJ Res 114 is the closest thing considering the war has technically never ended, its been in a cease-fire.

I offered the following in terms of a compromise, changing:

The 2003 invasion was undertaken by a multinational "Coalition of the willing" led by the United States and the United Kingdom, which invaded Iraq and deposed Saddam Hussein's government on the basis that Hussein was in possession of weapons of mass destruction and so was a threat to the world

to

The 2003 invasion was undertaken by a multinational "Coalition of the willing" led by the United States and the United Kingdom. The reason that was most publicized for the invasion was the that Iraq was in possession of weapons of mass destruction and was willing to share those weapons with terrorist organizations, use them on his own civilian population or against the United States directly.

simply expanding on the reasons why WMD's were even an issue and that was completely ignored. --Zer0faults 22:20, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

No, this "compromise" is unacceptable. The Iraq disarmament crisis touched off the 2003 Invasion of Iraq not the "Iraq Terrorism Crisis". -- Mr. Tibbs 02:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Having read the discussion I believ that whilst Mr Tibbs is correct in tha fact that Iraq disarmament crisis was the major contributing factor to the war it should not be promoted as the ONLY reason.Zerofaults is offering the best compromise IMO which Mr Tibbs is refusing to accept for whatever reason. Perhaps this would be better to submit to the mediation commitee rather than this cabal as it is a high profile topic. -- Tmorton166 (Errant Emote) 10:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Tmorton, how would I go about submitting this to mediation committee? Or better yet is there an admin around who would setup and monitor a vote on Iraq War to resolve this dispute? -- Mr. Tibbs 03:20, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Go here to submit to the mediation commitee. Agreed though, you could get in touch with an admin to get a vote. -- Tmorton166 (Errant Emote) 16:48, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Does it matter which Admin sets up the vote? Looking on Misplaced Pages:Current surveys there isn't any set procedure. Think Misplaced Pages needs a Request:Survey system like it has a Request:ForAdminship system. Should I just write one up myself? Zero complained about the last one in a statement on this page so I would like to make it as fair as possible. Say with one column saying:

"Users who think the casus belli-(main officially stated reason) of the 2003 Invasion of Iraq Was WMD-(Iraq Disarmament Crisis)"

and another column saying

"Users who think the casus belli-(main officially stated reason) of the 2003 Invasion of Iraq Was Not WMD-(Iraq Disarmament Crisis)"

Or does that not make sense? -- Mr. Tibbs 23:00, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The community has already spoken regarding the issue of polls, you cannot hold a popularity contest because you ran out of ways to frame your point that have not been proven factual instable. Perhaps if you were willing to find a middleground as numerous people including one you asked to comment on the page,User:Nescio, have reccomended, then the issue could be solved. I will not yeild facts to popular opinion as you are only asking for a vote because polls worldwide show people are against the war, however that does not mean that the reasons for going to war change, also the whole debate shows that media coverage has in fact polluted the pool. I will not aceept a poll because most people have not read "The War Powers Act of 1973", "HJ Res 114", "UNSC Res 1441", "680", "668" etc, therefore they cannot comment as to what the official reasons for war are. Futhermore your questions you propose are incorrect, as they do not even frame the other side of the debate properly. We are stating there are numerous casus belli mentioned, not just WMD. This goes to show you why Straw Polls are not binding. --Zer0faults 13:46, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I got a note on my talk page asking me to look in here and possibly help guide a 'poll'. However, after briefly reviewing the situation I don't think a poll would neccessarily solve the dispute. It seems to me that Zer0faults is arguing that government documents listed various grounds for the current Iraq War while Mr. Tibbs is arguing that the over-riding publically proclaimed reason was the then believed refusal to comply with WMD disarmament. Based on my own recollection I would say that both of those statements are true. The debate seems to be over which of these frameworks should be included in the article or listed as the 'casus belli'... which in the most technical sense is the list of grievances in the formal 'declaration of war'... which was never actually issued for the current "use of force" in Iraq. I would urge everyone to put aside the terminology and any impulse to present the facts in a politically favorable way and take a little 'poll'...

1. Does anyone disagree that the 'WMD' argument was by far the most widely proclaimed reason used to 'sell the war' to the public?
2. Does anyone disagree that there were other grounds stated (verbally or in documents) for the invasion?
3. Would anyone claim that either of these facts should be excluded from an article on the Iraq War?

Please indicate your views on these three items in any response. If we can agree on those issues (I know, I'm a dreamer) then what we really need to work out is how to make sure the article includes all the information in a balanced way. --CBDunkerson 21:29, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

This doesn't really answer your questions but: The point I've been trying to make with several pages of "dialogue" with Zero is that the government documents Do Use WMD as the main reason to invade Iraq. Zero keeps on referring to HJ Res 114 and the "list of reasons" it contains. But the preamble section is Not a list of reasons. From HJ Res 114 Preamble: "Whereas the President has authority under the Constitution..." Is that a reason to do anything? No, if you look at the rest of HJ 114 and not just the Preamble you'll see what it authorizes: "strictly enforce through the United Nations Security Council all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq and encourages him in those efforts;...":"defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq" and so on. This government document makes it very clear what is being authorized and Why. So not only was WMD the most widely proclaimed reason to 'sell the war' all the government documents do the exact same thing. There wasn't any massive discrepancy between what was sold to the public and what was in HJ Res 114. In fact I'm sure Zero would take exception to such implied deceit. - Mr. Tibbs 03:21, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Here's an anonymous user doing a tally of HJ Res 114 following Zero's reasoning that the Preamble is just a long list of reasons: and look at the "response" from Zero: . - Mr. Tibbs 03:21, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Hell, lets let Bush explain this one in his own words. Helen Thomas recently asked him about all this:

"Q I'd like to ask you, Mr. President, your decision to invade Iraq has caused the deaths of thousands of Americans and Iraqis, wounds of Americans and Iraqis for a lifetime. Every reason given, publicly at least, has turned out not to be true. My question is, why did you really want to go to war? From the moment you stepped into the White House, from your Cabinet -- your Cabinet officers, intelligence people, and so forth -- what was your real reason? You have said it wasn't oil -- quest for oil, it hasn't been Israel, or anything else. What was it?"

"THE PRESIDENT: I think your premise -- in all due respect to your question and to you as a lifelong journalist -- is that -- I didn't want war. To assume I wanted war is just flat wrong, Helen, in all due respect -- "

"Q Everything -- "

"THE PRESIDENT: Hold on for a second, please."

"Q -- everything I've heard --"

"THE PRESIDENT: Excuse me, excuse me. No President wants war. Everything you may have heard is that, but it's just simply not true. My attitude about the defense of this country changed on September the 11th. We -- when we got attacked, I vowed then and there to use every asset at my disposal to protect the American people. Our foreign policy changed on that day, Helen. You know, we used to think we were secure because of oceans and previous diplomacy. But we realized on September the 11th, 2001, that killers could destroy innocent life. And I'm never going to forget it. And I'm never going to forget the vow I made to the American people that we will do everything in our power to protect our people. Part of that meant to make sure that we didn't allow people to provide safe haven to an enemy. And that's why I went into Iraq -- hold on for a second -- "

"Q They didn't do anything to you, or to our country."

"THE PRESIDENT: Look -- excuse me for a second, please. Excuse me for a second. They did. The Taliban provided safe haven for al Qaeda. That's where al Qaeda trained --"

"Q I'm talking about Iraq --"

"THE PRESIDENT: Helen, excuse me. That's where -- Afghanistan provided safe haven for al Qaeda. That's where they trained. That's where they plotted. That's where they planned the attacks that killed thousands of innocent Americans. I also saw a threat in Iraq. I was hoping to solve this problem diplomatically. That's why I went to the Security Council; that's why it was important to pass 1441, which was unanimously passed. And the world said, disarm, disclose, or face serious consequences --"

"Q -- go to war --"

"THE PRESIDENT: -- and therefore, we worked with the world, we worked to make sure that Saddam Hussein heard the message of the world. And when he chose to deny inspectors, when he chose not to disclose, then I had the difficult decision to make to remove him. And we did, and the world is safer for it. "

"Q Thank you, sir. Secretary Rumsfeld -- (laughter.)"

Source:

Were there secondary reasons? Sure, at one point Bush even talks about a "committment to children" in Iraq as part of an extension of his "No Child Left Behind Act". But the Main Official Reason for the war in Iraq, in HJ Res 114, in Bush's prewar ultimatum in all of his Public Statements, written, verbal, formal or informal is WMD. -- Mr. Tibbs 03:21, 22 May 2006 (UTC)