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This is a discussion to decide the content of the lead section of the Jerusalem article. It was mandated by the Arbitration Committee by motion in January 2013, and its result will be binding for three years. The structure of this page was arrived at through a moderated discussion conducted by Mr. Stradivarius. The RfC began at 11:00, 23 May 2013 (UTC), and will end at 11:00, 22 June 2013 (UTC). It will be closed by a panel of three experienced editors: Keilana, RegentsPark, and Pgallert.

The dispute over the lead of the Jerusalem article is one of the oldest on Misplaced Pages, having first been debated in 2003. Since then it has generated more than 2784 KiB of wikitext in 149 discussion threads, including at least three previous RfCs. The dispute focuses on whether or not it is neutral to say that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. Detailed information on legal and diplomatic positions held about Jerusalem by the international community can be seen in our article Positions on Jerusalem. — Mr. Stradivarius 11:00, 23 May 2013

Discussion structure

We have included two general discussion questions for you to answer, and seven drafts for you to comment on. Please answer the general questions using the "yes", "no", "other", and "threaded discussion" subsections provided. Similarly, when commenting on the drafts please use the "support", "support with revisions", "oppose", and "threaded discussion" subsections. Also, please note that the drafts may not be intended to be the first sentence of the lead, and that you may support as many drafts as you like.

In order to keep the general discussion questions on topic, we ask you to please refrain from asking new numbered questions after the two we have already worked out. However, you are of course welcome to ask new questions in the general discussion section. Also, regarding the drafts, we agreed in the moderated discussion that we would like editors to bring in fresh opinions. So you may add new drafts using the mechanism provided below. However, to keep us from having many similar drafts, we ask that you add a comment in the "support with revisions" section if you are only suggesting a minor improvement of an existing draft. New drafts should be reserved for major changes from existing drafts.

Finally, rather than include a detailed breakdown of all the talk page arguments made over the years, we have opted to include a summary of what reliable sources say about the subject of the dispute. We hope you will consider the positions of the sources carefully, and make informed comments based on both the sources and on Misplaced Pages policy. — Mr. Stradivarius 15:03, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Source summary

The capital status of Jerusalem is complex, and there have been many different views expressed on it in reliable sources. The participants of the moderated discussion have collaboratively created a summary of these views:

• Jerusalem is the capital of Israel under Israeli law.
• Few or no countries recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
• The capital status of Jerusalem is controversial. It is controversial to refer to Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, and it is also controversial not to refer to it as the capital of Israel. It is also controversial to refer to Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine.
• Some reputable sources use "Tel Aviv" as a metonym, as shorthand for 'Israel', and some reputable sources refer to Tel Aviv as the capital of Israel.
• East Jerusalem, which our article treats as part of Jerusalem, is in the Palestinian territories and is occupied by Israel.
• Many sources list Jerusalem as the capital of Israel when there is little room for nuance, but in prose, sources often use qualifiers which show that the status as capital was achieved unilaterally.
• Palestine aspires to make Jerusalem its capital.
• The Israeli government made Jerusalem its seat of government and declared it its capital.
• There is very little support for the Israeli view regarding the sovereignty and capital status of Jerusalem (especially East Jerusalem).

General questions

Question one

Is it compliant with WP:NPOV to state 'Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.'?

Please answer either "yes", "no", or "other" in the relevant section below, giving a detailed rationale for your choice.

Question one: Yes

1. Yes, Israel has a capital and it is in Jerusalem. There's no "point of view" involved here, just simple fact. Chris Troutman (talk) 15:52, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Yes, it is strictly compliant with NPOV, although the wisdom of stating it without any reference to those who reject this fact is worthy of discussion. --GHcool (talk) 16:34, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Yes, all three branches of Israel's government are based in Jerusalem, so that makes it the de facto captial. Jerusalem is considered capital of Israel under Israeli law, so that makes it the de jure capital as well. --PiMaster3 23:28, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. Yes, because of the facts PiMaster mentions. This isn't a matter of some group claiming as its capital a place that it doesn't control, or a matter of a country officially making one place its capital while putting its government in a different place; Israel controls and operates its government out of Jerusalem. Nyttend (talk) 05:05, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Question one: No

1. The statement is too simplistic. A more nuanced statement composed from the sourced statements above would be better. Jehochman 12:23, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. No. Too simple, no room for details.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:47, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. No. Agreed that it is "too simple" and that details or qualifications of that statement should be appended to it. Sure it is a truth, but it's a qualified truth, so logically a qualified truth that doesn't explain the mitigating conditions associated with its truth is a lie by omission. --ColonelHenry (talk) 14:08, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. No, that ignores the POV of nearly the entire world. nableezy - 14:17, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. No, since sources say most of the world doesn't refer to Jerusalem as Israel's capital. --Dailycare (talk) 14:44, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
6. Clearly not. --Wickey-nl (talk) 15:08, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
7. No, too simple - Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:11, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
8. Echoing about oversimplifying a complex topic. Collect (talk) 15:35, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
9. No. It implies East Jerusalem is in Israel, which in international law, it is not. It is not treated as such either in many spheres of Israeli law. The apparently innocuous proposition is, implicitly, territorially appropriative and therefore violates WP:NPOV. Nishidani (talk) 15:45, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
10. It needs to be neutral and not simplified. Ramaksoud2000 15:46, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
11. Per WP:V : it does not because East-Jerusalem is part of Jesuralem but is a Palestinian occupied territory. More, WP:NPoV require all reliable points of views are taken into account and this option doesn't take into account the Palestinian point of view and more important the UNO and international community point of view that reject or refuse to validate that de facto situation. Pluto2012 (talk) 16:37, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
12. No, as per others here. Martin Hogbin (talk) 16:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
13. Capital status is unrecognized by pretty much the entire world save Israel so no.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:30, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
14. "X is Y" reads as a definitive statement of fact, and while that is fine for almost all situations, e.g. "Boston is the capital of Massachusetts", it is controversial here, as it represents a point-of-view that is a distinct minority. Tarc (talk) 17:52, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
15. No. I didn't dig deep on this topic, but I usually read on news websites (Arabic and English) that Tel Aviv is the capital, but Israeli leaders keep referring to Jerusalem as "the eternal capital of Israel". So I see this as reflecting the Israeli POV in Misplaced Pages words, which is not acceptable. Mohamed CJ (talk) 20:11, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
16. No. While I agree with the general principle that states are permitted to decide their own capital, this is a special case. The fact that multiple sovereign nations claim the city as their capital, as well as the UN declaration of corpus separatum, means that a large number of references do not treat the statement "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" as an unqualified fact. WP:V and WP:NPOV require that we do the same. Evanh2008  20:27, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
17. No, too simplistic. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
18. No, because what must follow is: "but it is complicated..." Fylbecatulous talk 20:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
19. No. WP:NPOV says: "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts." Sources do contest that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel or indicate that the matter is in dispute. Sovereignty over Jerusalem, both East and West, is also disputed. After Israel passed laws regarding the sovereignty and status of Jerusalem, the "international community", through UN motions, affirmed that no country had sovereignty over Jerusalem, that no country could unilaterally alter the status of Jerusalem and that any such acts, including laws regarding Jerusalem passed by Israel, were invalid.     ←   ZScarpia   03:45, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
20. Although legally recognized by Israel as its capital, the eastern portion of Jerusalem is claimed by the Palestinians. To say unequivocally that Jerusalem is "the capital of Israel" within the lead sentence will inevitably give the impression of bias. Kurtis 04:37, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Question one: Other

1. Is one statement with no context NPOV? Generally, not how NPOV works, but could it be in context, sure. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. This question is irrelevant. During the discussion that led to this RfC, some editors wanted this question alone (rather than also Question 2) to be asked, because if this sentence here didn't comply with NPOV, no sentence including it could comply with NPOV. On the other hand, I (and others) argued that the whole "sentence", including the key phrase though not internationally recognized as such, should be queried, as that's what the article says. The compromise was what we have now -- asking about both. Well, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Considering a number of people have said "no" to Question 1, but "yes" to Question 2 -- and others have explicitly mentioned context in their remarks -- the idea that this phrase needs to satisfy NPOV in order for any sentence or paragraph that includes this material to satisfy NPOV is far from universal. No one is arguing to remove though not internationally recognized as such from the article, so there is no reason we need to discuss a sentence like this one without the added context in Question 2. -- tariqabjotu 01:13, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
3. It can be NPOV, but it's not helpful. It would be a very bad idea to include the first sentence without following it up with more context, if for no other reason than that it's a complicated situation that readers should understand. Nyttend (talk) 05:06, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Question one threaded discussion

Question two

Is it compliant with WP:NPOV to state 'Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such.'?

Please answer either "yes", "no", or "other" in the relevant section below, giving a detailed rationale for your choice.

Question two: Yes

1. Yes. A country decides what it's capital is going to be, and that decision is usually recognized by other countries. When it isn't, a statement is required to explain the issue. Jehochman 12:24, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Yes, I have no problem with this statement, It is de-facto capital of Israel, not recognized by the majority of countries.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Yes. Agree with the two comments above, though the sentence could be written more accurately and more explanation is expected to follow.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:09, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. Yes. This is clearly accurate - capitals are self-determined (so even if no-one recognised Jerusalem as the country's capital, it still factually is), but as it isn't widely recognised, it's worth pointing it out. Number 57 14:17, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. Yes, per User:Jehochman. Chris Troutman (talk) 15:55, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
6. Yes, in fact, The Continuum Political Encyclopedia of the Middle East begins its article on Jerusalem in almost exactly the same words (p. 491). --GHcool (talk) 16:36, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
7. Yes. Jerusalem is Israel's de jure (if not entirely de facto) capital. Israel exercises direct jurisdiction over the city, whether or not that jurisdiction is legitimate or legal. Skimming over the definition of the city as capital, with deference to Palestinian claims of sovereignty, ignores nearly fifty years of status quo. If the current diplomatic standstill continues for another thousand years with Israel in complete control of the city, will we still be dodging the issue of capital status? Evanh2008  20:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
8. Yes. Israel has declared Jerusalem its capital, and Israel's government is located in Jerusalem. Therefore, Jerusalem is Israel's capital. I also see no evidence, nor have I ever seen evidence, that the lack of recognition by other countries or the fact that part of the city is occupied territory (or "not within Israeli territory") affects that. The absence of another capital city located on occupied territory is not proof that a city on occupied territory cannot be a country's capital. This is a statement of an indisputable fact -- that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel -- followed by an acknowledgement that the rest of the world doesn't like it (for reasons noted here and detailed in so many other places on and off Misplaced Pages). That position from the rest of the world can be elaborated upon elsewhere -- and it already is: elsewhere in our current lead, in a footnote linked in the lead, in the body of the article in a dedicated section, and in a separate article. Sufficient context and information is given about this issue for this statement to be in the lead. And making this statement does not mean we'd also be saying Jerusalem is indisputably Israeli; yes, the Israeli government does believe that, but the fact that one agrees with them on one thing (that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel) does not necessarily mean one agrees with them on everything. -- tariqabjotu 02:12, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
9. Yes, per what I said to the first question, and it shouldn't be that hard to show that lots of governments refuse to acknowledge it. Nyttend (talk) 05:07, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Question two: No

1. No. Much of what Israel calls "Jerusalem" is not in Israel. By giving the Israeli claim to it being the capital, we imply that it is "Israeli". The overwhelming majority of sources reject that position, and nearly every state on the planet considers East Jerusalem to be in the Palestinian territories, not in Israel. To call it the Israeli capital, even with the condition given, implicitly supports a position that the majority of sources reject. nableezy - 14:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. This is not neutral since sources describe Jerusalem's alleged capital status as a major controversy and Misplaced Pages shouldn't take sides in those, rather we should describe the sides' arguments. Many sources say that Israel claims/considers/proclaims/etc Jerusalem to be its capital, but that this isn't accepted internationally. That should be the gist of our message. If most of the international community don't say Jerusalem is Israel's capital, neither should we.

   Here are a few sources that describe the issue:

   Israel (...) claims it as its capital

   Israel considers all of Jerusalem (...) as its capital, a position not accepted internationally

   While Israel calls Jerusalem its (...) capital, few other states accept that status

   "Jerusalem is Israel's capital and will remain as such." That position is universally rejected by other countries

   page 87: "most States (...) do not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, as claimed by Israel"

   Mr Romney referred to Jerusalem as Israel's capital, something the current US administration and most of the international community do not do --Dailycare (talk) 14:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
   

3. No as the first half of the sentence states as a fact a widely rejected fringe position. Something like "Israel and Palestine view Jerusalem as their capital, though its not internationally recognized as such" would be npov. Sepsis II (talk) 14:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. No. People have said countries get to define their own capital. True, but in the modern nation state system they do not get to unilaterally define their own territory. Israel has designated its capital outside of its internationally recognized territory - which is why there is so much controversy over the issue. The statement under discussion assumes the minority Israeli position at the expense of the overwhelming majority opinion and is therefore inconsistent with WP:NPOV. For a fairly standard account of the issue see eg (P R. Kumaraswamy 2009): "The international community, however, does not recognize even West Jerusalem, let alone the post-1967 unified city, as Israel's capital. The United Nations and various other international forums and organisations have adopted innumerable resolutions condemning Israel's policy on Jerusalem. With the exception of a few Latin American countries, most states that have diplomatic ties with Israel consider Tel Aviv to be its capital."

   Israel has declared Jerusalem its capital and moved its government buildings to Jerusalem (these are facts), but what this means for the status of Jerusalem, both in terms of Israeli sovereignty and capital status is not decided. There is a significant divergence of opinions in WP:RELIABLE SOURCES on this and therefore per WP:NPOV we should not be stating it as a fact. A sample of viewpoints diverging from the Israeli opinion of the capital/sovereignty status of Jerusalem can be viewed here.

   Neutral, balanced sources such as the Encyclopaedia Britanica use language that is careful to state only the agreed facts without adopting the opinions of one of the parties ("Jerusalem is the seat of government and the proclaimed capital, although the latter status has not received wide international recognition.") We aim to be a neutral and balanced source and we should be taking a similar approach. Dlv999 (talk) 14:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

5. No ... still misses the point Collect (talk) 15:36, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
6. No. The UN has rejected this. Ramaksoud2000 15:49, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
7. No rmally, I would say: "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and Palestine", but this case is not normal. If the whole world except Israel says "Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel", then stating that it is the capital, especially in the first sentence, is simply not true.

   You can only say "Israel has declared Jerusalem the capital of Israel, although this is internationally not recognized", and only combined with the Palestinian counterpart "Palestine has declared Jerusalem the capital of the State of Palestine". Whereby noticed, that the Palestinians speak of Jerusalem and not of East Jerusalem, even when it is East Jerusalem de facto. The whole point should preferably not be mentioned in the lead, but in the body, just because of its controversial character. --Wickey-nl (talk) 15:50, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

8. No.' A country decides what its capital is going to be' (Jehochman). True, but no country, except Israel here, has decided its capital is outside of its legally defined, internationally recognized and sanctioned borders. That is the problem. You cannot stake your claim on both ground you own but include in the stake another man's contiguous patch. It is therefore, intrinsically, a contested claim. Nishidani (talk) 15:58, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
9. Jehochman is right that a country decides where to establish its capital and he is right that this choice is then recognized or not by the international community but this solution does not comply with WP:NPoV because it doesn't give the Palesitnian point of view and because it forgets to remind that East-JErusalem is an occupied territory as widely reminded in all UN resolutions regarding the topic. Pluto2012 (talk) 16:42, 23 May 2013 (UTC) 16:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
10. A country can choose its capital within its own undisputed borders or, only with agreement, elsewhere. Martin Hogbin (talk) 16:44, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
11. Gives insufficient context for this statement to be neutral, though it is better than just saying it is the capital.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:32, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
12. Per Nableezy, Sepsis II and Wickey-nl. Mohamed CJ (talk) 20:18, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
13. No, it is still too simplistic, because it leaves out too much context and nuance, and it seems to imply that the lack of recognition is a lesser dispute than it actually is. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:40, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
14. No, because 'Jerusalem is the declared capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such.' This sentence still cannot be neutrally stated without a modifier or caveat. Fylbecatulous talk 20:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
15. No. The sentence is asserting as a fact that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel when that is something under dispute and therefore breaches WP:NPOV. Many of those voting Yes are using the argument, as the Israeli government and its supporters do, that states have the right to nominate their own capital. That argument is irrelevant as far as WP:NOV is concerned; it doesn't change the fact that the status of Jerusalem IS disputed and therefore should be presented in terms of points of view. The argument is an attempt to bypass WP:NPOV; it argues that a point of view should be presented as a fact, that is, it is pushing a point of view. If there was agreement that Israel had sovereignty over Jerusalem, nobody sensible would object to Israel nominating it's own capital. The point is, though, that there is widespread agreement that Israel does NOT have sovereignty over Jerusalem, nor the right to unilaterally change that city's status, which is why Israel's choice of capital is rejected. Simply, that view could be expressed as that Jerusalem is not Israel's capital because Jerusalem is not Israel's.     ←   ZScarpia   04:20, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
16. Per my rationale directly above, outright ignoring the Palestinian claim to East Jerusalem creates the perception of a pro-Israel bias. It also flies in the face of international consensus. Kurtis 04:40, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Question two: Other

1. This has more context then the first but still not enough to determine NPOV. Also, probably too weasily (eg. "generally") to serve in this article well, from a "due" standpoint, or from a three year lockdown standpoint. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:06, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Question two threaded discussion

I agree that there are valid objections to this statement. It needs to be expanded to explain that "Jerusalem" is only partly within Israel, as recognized by the world, though Israel asserts that it has all of Jerusalem. This is the very heart of the dispute between Israel and the Palestinians, and it should be clearly explained. Jehochman 20:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this question is proving problematic. "Insufficient context", "too simplistic", and "still not enough context" are among the phrases used to describe the sentence queried here. So, it seems some people are evaluating this sentence as if its in a vacuum. Yes, if this sentence were the only thing the entire article were to say about the capital status of Jerusalem, it would be woefully insufficient. But, I do not see that as the idea being queried; rather, I see this more as the question Do you think an article with this sentence included could possibly satisfy NPOV? In other words, we must assume that further elaboration and detail you would look would be provided along with this statement. This is not unreasonable assumption because, let's recall, this sentence is currently in the article in the lead. And, as you can see in the article, there's ample context farther in the lead, as well as in a footnote linked from the lead, in the body of the article in a dedicated section, and in the associated article Positions on Jerusalem. All of the information you provided, for example, is explained in the article and, in fact, in the lead too. This question was not intended to override the information already provided in the article. -- tariqabjotu 02:21, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Drafts

Drafts at a glance

We have created seven drafts for you to comment on. Please note that not all of these drafts are intended to be the first sentence of the lead. Some are intended to come later on in the lead, so please bear this in mind when you comment. Also, you may support as many drafts as you like. If you think a draft has merit, then please support it regardless of whether you have also supported other drafts. This will help us to judge what features of what drafts have the widest support, so that we can create new composite drafts if desired. And finally, please give detailed rationales for your choice of draft, based on Misplaced Pages policy. Some applicable policies and guidelines include:

• Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view
• Misplaced Pages:Verifiability
• Misplaced Pages:No original research
• Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Lead section

Below is a list of all the drafts constructed for easy comparison. To comment on a draft, please use the discussion sections further down the page. — Mr. Stradivarius 15:37, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

1. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such. (discuss)
2. Jerusalem is a city in Israel and the Palestinian territories. Since the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel has occupied East Jerusalem and has included it within its capital city. Palestine has designated Jerusalem its capital, though neither the Israeli or Palestinian claims have gained international recognition. (discuss)
3. Jerusalem is the seat of the Israeli government, but its status as the capital of Israel has been unrecognized abroad. Instead, the international community considers the status of Jerusalem a matter to be resolved with Palestinians, who also see the city as the capital of a future independent state of their own. (discuss)
4. Both Israel and Palestine claim Jerusalem as their respective capital, but the city isn't recognized internationally as a capital. (discuss)
5. Jerusalem is the proclaimed capital and seat of the Israeli government and the proclaimed capital of Palestine, though the international community does not recognize either proclamation or ownership of the city. (discuss)
6. Jerusalem has long been a point of contention in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, with both Israelis and Palestinians seeing it as capital of their respective states. Although the Israeli government operates out of the city and has called the city its capital for decades, most nations do not recognize this status. (discuss)
7. Jerusalem is one of the oldest cities in the world, considered holy to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam Israelis and Palestinians both claim Jerusalem as their capital, as Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions there and the State of Palestine ultimately foresees it as its seat of power; however, neither claim is widely recognized internationally. (discuss)
8. Jerusalem is one of the oldest cities in the world, considered holy to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The status of Jerusalem has long been a point of contention throughout history and in recent years in the context of the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Since the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel has occupied East Jerusalem and has included it within its capital city. Israelis and Palestinians both claim Jerusalem as their capital, as Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions there and the State of Palestine ultimately foresees it as its seat of power; however, neither claim is widely recognized internationally. Instead, the international community considers the status of Jerusalem a matter to be resolved with Palestinians, who also see the city as the capital of a future independent state of their own. (discuss)
9. Jerusalem is one of the oldest cities in the world, considered holy to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The status of Jerusalem has often been a point of contention, most recently in the context of the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions in the city and considers East Jerusalem, which it controls since the Six Day's War, as an integral part of its capital. The Palestinian authorities however claim Jerusalem as the capital of a future Palestinian state. Neither claim is widely recognized internationally. (discuss)

Draft one

^ view all drafts

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft one

1. Factually correct - capitals are self-determined, so what the international community thinks is irrelevant to that fact. However, that it is a controversy is also worth mentioning. Number 57 14:55, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. The Continuum Political Encyclopedia of the Middle East opens its article on Jerusalem in almost exactly the same way (p. 491). it is is incredibly succinct and accurate on Jerusalem's status. --GHcool (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. As I expected during the discussion leading to this RfC, this draft is handicapped by the fact that it doesn't explicitly elaborate with the additional information that would be included along with it. But, we need to remember that this option is basically just the status quo. And when you look at that status quo, you see an entire paragraph in the lead (Today, the status of Jerusalem remains one of the core issues in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. The international community has rejected the latter annexation as illegal and treats East Jerusalem as Palestinian territory occupied by Israel. ) that includes some of the same information explicitly stated in other drafts that people like. This draft was never intended to be a request to excise that additional background information. -- tariqabjotu 02:27, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft one with revisions

Oppose draft one

1. Oppose as the first half of the sentence states a widely rejected fringe position as a fact in violation of NPOV. Sepsis II (talk) 14:47, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" shouldn't be stated in wikipedia's neutral voice since most countries don't refer to Jerusalem as Israel's capital. --Dailycare (talk) 14:49, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Oppose because of the NPOV statement (per question 1 vide supra). This draft lacks all context that would adequately summarize and explain the issue.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. Per comments on if it is NPOV above. nableezy - 15:12, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. Oppose, while it might be viewed as being technically correct by some, there are so many better choices that we might as well eliminate it. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:16, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
6. As explained above, not the whole truth. Thus factually not correct. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:09, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
7. A country decides where to establish its capital and this choice is then recognized or not by the international community but this solution does not comply with WP:NPoV because it doesn't give the Palestinian point of view and because it forgets to remind that East-Jerusalem was chosen as capital of the State of Palestine as well and also is an occupied territory. (This last point is widely reminded in all UN resolutions regarding the topic.) Pluto2012 (talk) 16:45, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
8. Per reasons here and responses to question about NPOV above. Significant omissions are made.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
9. This is the third question out of three in which my objection is about the statement that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel". My rationale is as above. Mohamed CJ (talk) 20:24, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
10. Oppose, as being too simplistic, and thus inferior to other draft options that are below. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:42, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
11. Oppose, echoing what I said above in answer to question one re: NPOV. The first half remains POV and with the additional text, the entire statement now becomes paradoxical. How can Jerusalem be an unrecognized capital? Complications alone make it so, which leads one down the garden path of POV explanations to give context. Fylbecatulous talk 21:26, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
12. Per my answers to the two questions in the above section. Kurtis 04:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft one threaded discussion

Draft two

^ view all drafts

Jerusalem is a city in Israel and the Palestinian territories. Since the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel has occupied East Jerusalem and has included it within its capital city. Palestine has designated Jerusalem its capital, though neither the Israeli or Palestinian claims have gained international recognition.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft two

1. This draft actually says where Jerusalem is and how it functions. 3rd choice. nableezy - 14:21, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft two with revisions

1. This sounds good, although it may be read as endorsing Israel's universally rejected claim to having Jerusalem as its capital. Suggest to re-phrase this to " (...) has included it within its proclaimed capital city. Palestine has designated Jerusalem (...)".--Dailycare (talk) 14:52, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. I think this draft does a good job of neutrally summarizing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (and ongoing international situation), but elements of political facts (i.e. defining the nature of the capital status) and historical context is lacking. I proposed a combination of these elements in Draft 8.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Jerusalem is before all one of the oldest city in the world and the most symbolic one. The current Israeli-Palesitian conflict should not hide this per WP:Due weight. Anyway the presentation of the other facts is precise enough and consice to comply with WP:Due weight and complies with WP:NPoV. A merging in draft 7 would be good. Pluto2012 (talk) 16:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. Could use some clarifications and noting the historical status of the city would be important in the opening of the article. It's mainly notable for being an old-ass city that a bunch of people can't stop arguing about.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. This is more of a provisional support in the absence of anything else which better captures the issue in its entirety. One important addition to make is the fact that the Palestinians only claim East Jerusalem as their capital, rather than the whole city. Kurtis 05:04, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose draft two

1. Jerusalem is occupied by force and formally never recognized as Israeli territory, even West Jerusalem. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:14, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. I don't like the Palestinian claim over Jerusalem (there's no way they'll ever get West Jerusalem in any peace agreement). --GHcool (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. I think that the official British position is that in neither such place as it was meant to be a Corpus Separatum. "Straddles the border of" or some such might get round that problem.--Peter cohen (talk) 18:34, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. This is only a weak oppose. I know what is meant by saying that it is a city in two places, but that's a really awkward way of saying it. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:45, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. This version introduces the status of Jerusalem as Israel's capital as being with aggression (Since the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel has occupied East Jerusalem... and now ...and included it within its capital city). I don't see that as a neutral way to introduce that point. Further, it doesn't make clear a key difference between the Israeli and Palestinian capital claims: that Israel's government is actually located in the city. -- tariqabjotu 02:35, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft two threaded discussion

GHcool, what does not liking the claim have to do with it being the claim? And to that point, I dont know that Template:Rtl-lang (al-quds al-sharif, commonly translated as simply Jerusalem), which is what was proclaimed as the capital, even refers to West Jerusalem. nableezy - 17:57, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

GHcool. When Ben-Gurion declared Jerusalem the capital of Israel, in 1949, he was referring to the Jerusalem within Israel, on Israel's side of the armistice line. When Palestinians in their declaration of 1988 declared Jerusalem as their capital, they were mimicking the same device. The positions of the negotiators for Israel and the State of Palestine have been, since 1993, when the Oslo Accords relegated the final status of Jerusalem to the end of the peace process negotiations, consistent and are as follows:-

• Israel: All of Jerusalem, West and East, is Israel’s eternal, undivided capital. All of Jerusalem must remain under Israeli sovereignty forever.
• PLO: All of East Jerusalem (the area beyond the Green Line) is the capital of the Palestinian state. All of the territories of East Jerusalem must be under Palestinian sovereignty forever. This includes the Jewish “neighborhoods” in East Jerusalem.
• This has been confirmed as recently as 2011 by Saeb Erekat, who went on the record as affirming that by Jerusalem as its capital, the Palestinians mean ‘East Jerusalem’ within the 1967 borders, just as Ben-Gurion, in declaring Jerusalem the capital of Israel in 1949-50, was referring implicitly to Western Jerusalem.

So, the Palestinian position is that they do not intend to take over West Jerusalem, as Israel took over and cleansed the Palestinian Arab suburbs of Katamon and Malha in that sector in 1948-9. History moves on, and we do well to follow in its wake, picking up the details thrown overboard, rather than raise fearful spectres of awesomely undocumented claims. Nishidani (talk) 19:09, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

All of the proclamations, etc, should be in the body of the article. The lead should succinctly and clearly summarize the facts. As of this writing, Jerusalem is (both in theory and in practice) the capital of no country other than Israel. --GHcool (talk) 19:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I.e. the fact you like should be in the lead. The fact you dislike, that part of Jerusalem is not in Israel, should be swept down the page, to some note in the body of the article. That too fails WP:NPOV, by selectively privileging one fact over another. Nishidani (talk) 22:05, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft three

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Jerusalem is the seat of the Israeli government, but its status as the capital of Israel has been unrecognized abroad. Instead, the international community considers the status of Jerusalem a matter to be resolved with Palestinians, who also see the city as the capital of a future independent state of their own.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft three

1. Excellent. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Reads fine to me. Historical context would be provided in the lead, just as it is now. -- tariqabjotu 02:40, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft three with revisions

1. Support, but would replace "with Palestinians" with "with the Palestinian authorities" - the Jerusalem case won't be negotiated with the Palestinian people(s) as a whole. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:02, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Support as closest to the actual state of affairs. Collect (talk) 15:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. I like this a lot, but its less succint than Draft One. --GHcool (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. With the revision suggested above this would also be a suitable addition.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. I could live with this but I would prefer one of the options below that mention the historical and religious context.--Peter cohen (talk) 18:37, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
6. I feel the same way that Peter cohen does. It's also rather simplistic in treating the view of the international community as monolithic. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose draft three

1. Not clear enough. Everybody will not make the link between the "seat of the governement" and the capital status; even less that according to some definitions, the capital is where the embassies stand and not where the government seats... Pluto2012 (talk) 16:53, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft three threaded discussion

• The phrase "has been unrecognized" doesn't make sense. Do you mean "is unrecognized" or "has not been recognized"? — This, that and the other (talk) 01:52, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

  I don't think it makes a difference. They all read as meaning the same thing, even if one of those formulations may (or may not) be incorrect. -- tariqabjotu 02:38, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft four

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Both Israel and Palestine claim Jerusalem as their respective capital, but the city isn't recognized internationally as a capital.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft four

Support draft four with revisions

1. More succinct then suggestions above, but "isn't recognized as a capital" is a bit confusing. Noting that the claim is what is not recognized would be better. We should also mention the de-facto control of the city by Israel.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. For one thing, please change "isn't" to "is not". I recognize that this draft would not be the opening of the lead, so how well it would work depends a lot on what comes before it. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:50, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. My suggested revision: "Both Israel and Palestine claim Jerusalem as their respective capital, but the city is not recognized internationally as such". Using "capital" twice reads awkwardly and is redundant. If "as such" would have worked in earlier drafts or questions, why not now? Otherwise, I like this as being rational and well stated. Fylbecatulous talk 22:11, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose draft four

1. Oppose: "Palestine" is a virtual and/or future state/concept. What there is now should not be described as some "Palestine" claiming a capital. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Jerusalem actually is the capital of Israel right now and not the capital of Palestine at the moment. The article ought to reflect this reality. --GHcool (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Probably my last choice. Like Draft 2, but in a more overt fashion here, this puts the Israeli and Palestinian claims to Jerusalem as capital on an (unnecessarily) equal level. Israel's government is located in the city, Palestine's is not. That is a key difference when we're talking about capital city and that needs to be noted, or at the very least implied with slightly different language referring to the two claims. -- tariqabjotu 02:43, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft four threaded discussion

The view that "Palestine" is not a state is something without any basis in the sources. Palestine is a state that has been recognized by the vast majority of other states. It isnt a country (it doesnt control its territory, it doesnt exercise a monopoly on violence, ...), but it certainly is a state. nableezy - 16:09, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Two countries vie for the city, so 'Israel and Palestine' is fine. The problem is stylistic. I.e.capital in 'but the city isn't recognized internationally as a capital,' is repetitive, since the word was already used in the preceding sentence. I suggest reformulating as 'Both Israel and Palestine claim Jerusalem as their respective capital, though neither claim is internationally recognized.}} or something like that (there I go, objecting to repeating, and replacing one type with another (viz.claim).Nishidani (talk) 16:27, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft five

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Jerusalem is the proclaimed capital and seat of the Israeli government and the proclaimed capital of Palestine, though the international community does not recognize either proclamation or ownership of the city.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft five

1. Neutral, informative, with no room for misinterpretation. Sepsis II (talk) 14:44, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. This one seems fine in its current state, at best one could switch "seat of the Israeli government" with "the proclaimed capital" to be clear that it is de-facto the seat of the Israeli government and not just proclaimed as such.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft five with revisions

1. Question of ownership was missing in draft 3. either should be both. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:29, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Another acceptable option thay could be merged in draft 7. Pluto2012 (talk) 16:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose draft five

1. Oppose: "Palestine" is a virtual and/or future state/concept. What there is now should not be described as some "Palestine" claiming a capital. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:23, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Jerusalem actually is the capital of Israel right now and not the capital of Palestine at the moment. The article ought to reflect this reality. --GHcool (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. I think the language about proclamation and ownership creates more problems than it solves. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:52, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. The word "proclaimed" is so forced in this draft and makes this sentence read terribly. -- tariqabjotu 02:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft five threaded discussion

The first two opposing !votes are detached from reality and should be ignored as such. Sepsis II (talk) 18:16, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

'Jerusalem actually is the capital of Israel right now and not the capital of Palestine at the moment.'

GHcool. Well, in what capital of the world do you find the utilities divided nationally? East Jerusalem's predominantly Palestinian sector has its water and electricity supplied by the Palestinian Authority's grids; the allocation of 'Jerusalem' municipal funds runs 92-94% overwhelmingly in favour of Jewish residents, to the West or in the encircling settlements. Sewage and road infrastructure idem: they're 'their problem'. The Jerusalem muncipality refuses most applications for building permits for Palestinians in East Jerusalem: 33% of its housing infrastructure is thus illegal and can be bulldozed on court order. The whole curriculum of Palestinian East Jerusalem schools is based on the curriculum established by the PA in the West Bank, by another country. The fact is, while Israeli law applies to East Jerusalem's status as part of Israel's unilaterally declared 'eternal and unified Jerusalem', in de facto terms it is abandoned to its own resources, and the equal application of the laws of Israeli does not apply. That is a very peculiar state of law(lessness) for a putatively united capital city, incongruent with all other cases I am familiar with.Nishidani (talk) 19:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Jerusalem was the capital of Israel since 1948. It remains the capital today. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel despite any injustices Israel may or may not have committed against Palestinians. I will accept that it is the capital of Palestine only when Palestine's seat of government actually exists in Jerusalem. --GHcool (talk) 19:58, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

West Jerusalem, not Jerusalem, was the capital of Israel since 1948. The use of Orient House as an official office of representation in East Jerusalem by the Palestinian Authority was denied by the occupying power under Ariel Sharon (the wiki article doesn't tell you the full story). The State of Palestine cannot have its government in East Jerusalem simply because the occupying power refuses to allow it to host diplomatic functions there, its role being limited to supplying its Arab residents with the water, electricity etc., that the occupying power doesn't worry about.Nishidani (talk) 22:18, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft six

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Jerusalem has long been a point of contention in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, with both Israelis and Palestinians seeing it as capital of their respective states. Although the Israeli government operates out of the city and has called the city its capital for decades, most nations do not recognize this status.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft six

1. I'll give this draft weak support because I strongly disagree with the oppose rationales that have been given prior to my timestamp. However I would definitely prefer some of the more nuanced and detailed versions below. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. I can't for the life of me understand what some of the opposers are talking about. Too pro-Palestinian. The Government of Israel is based out of Jerusalem. Ok... Are you reading the correct draft? It says that. Afaik, the Israeli government operates in the city. Saying something operates in a city and out of a city is functionally equal. Some of the others seem equally puzzling. -- tariqabjotu 02:51, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft six with revisions

1. I think this draft does a good job of neutrally summarizing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (and ongoing international situation), but elements of political facts (i.e. defining the nature of the capital status) and historical context is lacking. I proposed a combination of these elements in Draft 8.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose draft six

1. Too pro-Palestinian. The Government of Israel is based out of Jerusalem.Chris Troutman (talk) 15:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. "Israelis," "Palestinians" and "most nations" do not hold unambiguous collective opinions as if they were borgs. Also, the Israeli government is not claiming J. as "its" capital, but as the capital of Israel. Skäpperöd (talk) 16:02, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Afaik, the Israeli government operates in the city. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:32, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. As of this writing, Palestine does not operate out of Jerusalem and therefore cannot reasonably called its "capital" right now. --GHcool (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. Seems too POV in its description of the Israeli claims. Seems to be trivializing Israeli control when that is actually a significant detail.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft six threaded discussion

The rationals behind opposition votes 1 and 4 doesn't seem to match this draft. To Wickey-nl, yes it does operate "in", but it also operates out of (out over the nation) Jerusalem too so the grammar is fine. Sepsis II (talk) 18:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft seven

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Jerusalem is one of the oldest cities in the world, considered holy to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam Israelis and Palestinians both claim Jerusalem as their capital, as Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions there and the State of Palestine ultimately foresees it as its seat of power; however, neither claim is widely recognized internationally.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft seven

1. I think this is my favourite of the various original seven drafts though there are interesting developments below. Jerusalem was fought over long before the modern State of Israel was thought of, let alone the State of Palestine. The religious context explains a lot of the modern dispute and avoids WP:Recentism. (Equally I think that there are problems with Rome where the city being the core of an ancient imperial state and its role as the base of the largest branch of one of the major religions are more important than its being the capital of a medium-sized modern state.)--Peter cohen (talk) 13:58, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Second choice, almost a perfect draft, though I would like to see something on the city being in Israel and the Palestinian territories. nableezy - 14:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. This is a very good draft that manages to both comply with policy and present the situation dispassionately in deep context. --Dailycare (talk) 14:58, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. 1. Per WP:due weight : the religious history of the city touches several billions people and is thousands years old ; the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict and its political impacts touches a few millions people and a hundred year old. -> That is totally in compliance with wikipedia principles to start talking about this and discussing about the capital issue later 2. Per WP:NPoV, both claims should be placed on the same level because : both Israelis and Palestinians claim Jerusalem as the capital of their State (max. 10,000,000 people each) ; both are supported by their allies (of course for a political question) but all neutral countries and the majority of the internatinal community (the remaining billions people) do no recognize one claim or the other and ask the problem is solved through peace negociations. Pluto2012 (talk) 16:20, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. Factually accurate and NPOV. Religion has to be mentioned as it is the main cause of the disputes. Martin Hogbin (talk) 16:46, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

   I disagree with you to a certain extent. Certainly it is an important aspect of the dispute, but I think the clash between Zionism and Arab nationalism is the primary factor in the decades-long conflict. Although this is the best wording proposed so far, I'm working on a newer revision that will begin with Jerusalem's present-day status. Kurtis 04:54, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

6. Enthusiastic support. I strongly prefer this general approach. Beginning with the historical and cultural context is very helpful, because of the role of religion in the geopolitical disputes, and the description of the Israeli and Palestinian positions is a balanced summary. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
7. As stated below, I think this the most of the first seven. Jehochman 21:27, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
8. So far, this is my first choice. Mohamed CJ (talk) 21:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
9. This reflects everything that is needed and nothing more. Fylbecatulous talk 23:05, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
10. This is an excellent draft and my personal favorite of the ones submitted so far. It's clear, to the point, and not too wordy. --Septagons (talk) 05:32, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
11. I would say this is the most appropriate choice, though I second Nableezy's concern for an inclusion of a mention that Jerusalem is located both In Israel and in Palestine. Solntsa90 (talk) 05:25, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
12. I feel this version best summarizes the various points without casting unnecessary aspersions on reasonable positions. It also directly acknowledges that the city's storied history and religious importance is more significant than, and therefore should be placed before, the recent conflict. -- tariqabjotu 06:02, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft seven with revisions

1. I think this draft was the best of the original 7 as it begins to draw the discourse by setting the historical context adequately, but needs to provide political/international relations information as presented in other drafts above. I proposed a combination of these elements in Draft 8. --ColonelHenry (talk) 14:50, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. I would suggest that the revisions Skäpperöd mentions with regards to "Israelis" and "Palestinians" would be a good idea, but keep State of Palestine per nableezy's comments on Skäpperöd's draft. Even if not formally established as a state given the occupation, it is a partially-recognized state.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose draft seven

1. Oppose, as the shortcomings of this proposal outweigh its benefits. The additional information of draft eight is missing, and "Palestinians" and "State of Palestine" should be replaced with "Palestinian authorities," and "Israelis" with "Israel." We can neither proclaim some opinion/legal claim as being held by a whole non-borg people, nor should we imply that the "State of Palestine" is, atm, any more than a concept. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:57, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Long winded and confuses more than it clarifies. --GHcool (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft seven threaded discussion

I wounder how is this draft confusing? (By the way, is it just me or do other people have to click "save" twice for edits to go through too??) Mohamed CJ (talk) 21:57, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't know if this is the cause of your needing to double-save, but ... if you've activated the gadget to remind yourself to put an edit summary ... and then don't put an edit summary ... then you'll have to save twice. StevenJ81 (talk) 03:17, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft eight by ColonelHenry

^ view all drafts
I chose to combine the important elements from the 7 previous drafts to make one comprehensive stand-alone paragraph.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:42, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Jerusalem is one of the oldest cities in the world, considered holy to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The status of Jerusalem has long been a point of contention throughout history and in recent years in the context of the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Since the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel has occupied East Jerusalem and has included it within its capital city. Israelis and Palestinians both claim Jerusalem as their capital, as Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions there and the State of Palestine ultimately foresees it as its seat of power; however, neither claim is widely recognized internationally. Instead, the international community considers the status of Jerusalem a matter to be resolved with Palestinians, who also see the city as the capital of a future independent state of their own.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft eight

1. First choice - I don't understand how anybody could say that their POV is not included here, which ultimately is what NPOV is all about. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:34, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. First choice; more than fair to everyone concerned. Chris Troutman (talk) 15:57, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Also first choice for me.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:10, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

   Support; this is clear and concise, represents all POVs, and places the issue in historical context, all in just a few sentences. -- Ypnypn (talk) 19:45, 23 May 2013 (UTC) changed to support with revisions -- Ypnypn (talk) 19:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft eight with revisions

1. This is also a very good text, I'd leave out the "and has included it within its capital city" wording as Israel's claim that Jerusalem "is" its capital is universally rejected internationally. Otherwise, I'd be ready to support this. --Dailycare (talk) 15:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

   Support, but "Palestinians" and "State of Palestine" should be replaced with "Palestinian authorities," and "Israelis" with "Israel." We can neither proclaim some opinion/legal claim as being held by a whole non-borg people, nor should we imply that the "State of Palestine" is, atm, any more than a concept. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:46, 23 May 2013 (UTC)Switch to oppose. Skäpperöd (talk) 16:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

2. First choice, with one modification. The part Israel has occupied East Jerusalem and has included it within its capital city. Israelis and Palestinians both claim Jerusalem as their capital, as Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions there and the State of Palestine ultimately foresees it as its seat of power is a bit repetitive. So get rid of and has included it within its capital city and that would be my first choice. But thanks for putting this together. Hits everything as far as I can tell. nableezy - 16:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. "throughout history" is rather sweeping. I would be happier with an explicit mention of the crusades and "often".--Peter cohen (talk) 19:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

   See History of Jerusalem. This issue extends far beyond the Crusades. -- Ypnypn (talk) 19:43, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

4. Support, but change "...and in recent years in the context..." to "...and, more recently, in the context..." The two ins are confusing. -- Ypnypn (talk) 19:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. I actually like this draft just as much as draft 7, which it resembles. However, I think that it should indicate that the resolution has to be reached with both Israel and Palestine, as opposed to the language that only names the Palestinians. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:02, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
6. ... and the State of Palestine ultimately foresees it as its seat of power; however, neither claim is widely recognized internationally. Instead, the international community considers the status of Jerusalem a matter to be resolved with Palestinians... Make a cut in the middle of this first sentence at "however" and incorporate "neither claim is widely recognized internationally" into the next sentence...somehow. Or just make the statement neither claim is widely recognized internationally a separate sentence. Otherwise I support, although I'm more in favor of draft seven because I really prefer a succinct style. Fylbecatulous talk 22:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose draft eight

1. Per WP:due weight in comparison with draft 7. First I consider very important the that is suggested in draft 7 and that lacks in draft 8 and which means that the political status of the city should be moved farther in the article. Second, even if what is written in draft 8 is more accurate than in draft 7, I think it is too much for the lead which must remain a summary and not explain everything. If the capital controversy deserves these 4 lines on my screen then the history and symbolic weight of the city would deserse 20 and not just half one... (Anyway Draft 8 is much better than drafts 1 to 6 regarding my reasonning.) Pluto2012 (talk) 16:32, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Oppose. ColonelHenry did a good job combining the relevant pieces of the first seven proposals, but I see a need for further improvement. First, "Palestinians" and "State of Palestine" should be replaced with "Palestinian authorities," and "Israelis" with "Israel." We can neither proclaim some opinion/legal claim as being held by a whole non-borg people, nor should we imply that the "State of Palestine" is, atm, any more than a concept. Second, the paragraph can easily be condensed without loosing any information. See proposal nine below. Skäpperöd (talk) 16:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Too long for lead. That is why I proposed to place in the body. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:39, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. Long winded and confuses more than it clarifies. --GHcool (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. Way too much detail for the lede. Summary style should still be a priority.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
6. Too much detail for the lead, especially in succession. The way it's worded shifts the focus too strongly and abruptly to the recent issue, being almost dismissive to its historical and religious importance. -- tariqabjotu 06:12, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft eight threaded discussion

One thing I'd add, though this could go elsewhere in the lead, is that the city is split between Israel and the Palestinian territories by the Green Line. Yes I know many states dont recognize any part of Jerusalem being anything other than a corpus separatum, but in practice it is widely understood that west of the Green Line = Israel and east of the Green Line = Palestinian territories. nableezy - 15:52, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Concerning Palestine, the State of Palestine has been recognized by more than 100 countries and has been admitted to the UN as a non-member state, so I'd call it more than just a theoretical concept. Israel hasn't been universally recognized either, yet we have no problems saying "Israel" here, instead of "Zionists". --Dailycare (talk) 16:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Even though I tend to be on the side of Israel in the conflict, I would disagree with any euphemism (i.e. "Palestinian authorities") that denies the statehood of Palestine. An independent Palestinian state is inevitable. It is here to stay and not just a "concept"--as it is both recognized by a sizeable portion of the world's countries, and working towards evolving into an established entity/presence. It won't go away and to diminish the status of Palestine and the Palestinian people by reverting to denial of it or calling it just an "authority" is POV.--ColonelHenry (talk) 17:05, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

On claims that Draft 8 is "too long", I ask what should be revised or left out? I do note there is a tautology in that the latter sentences are repetitive and can be condensed. However, WP:LEAD advises a lede should "briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article" While concise implies brevity (as an attribute), concise does not equal brevity. We're at no impelling need to be austere. The concepts have to be discussed to make it stand on its own, we have before us the task of summarizing historical context, political context, international context, and cultural context in one brief section. If we do not address these four areas in the lede, it can't stand on its own, and we do so by omitting essential summaries of the reality of Jerusalem. While it refers mostly to article size, it can apply adequately to the scope of a lede, WP:SUMMARY states: Opinions vary as to what counts as an ideal length; judging the appropriate size depends on the topic... and specifically regarding ledes...make a concise intro that works as a standalone. Per WP:LEAD: The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies.--ColonelHenry (talk) 17:20, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft nine by Skäpperöd

^ view all drafts
Rephrased and shortened draft eight per concerns there.

Jerusalem is one of the oldest cities in the world, considered holy to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The status of Jerusalem has often been a point of contention, most recently in the context of the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions in the city and considers East Jerusalem, which it controls since the Six Day's War, as an integral part of its capital. The Palestinian authorities however claim Jerusalem as the capital of a future Palestinian state. Neither claim is widely recognized internationally.

Support draft nine

1. Support as nom. Skäpperöd (talk) 16:30, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Support draft nine with revisions

1. I can support this draft as taking a similar approach to drafts 7 and 8, but I can also agree with some of the opposition, that the wording about the Authority should be corrected. There's something to be said for the greater concision, although I expect that 7 or 8 will prove better able to satisfy competing concerns about neutrality. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:06, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose draft nine

1. As draft 8, too long. Plus the POV of Skäpperöd, that the Palestinian authorities should be mentioned instead of the Palestinians or the State of Palestine. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:42, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
2. It is not Palestinian authorities that have claimed Jerusalem as a capital, it is the State of Palestine. Somebody can believe that such a state does not exist, but that person is wrong. A state exists when other states say it exists through the act of recognition. Palestine has been recognized as state by other states and as such it exists as a state. And it was the State of Palestine that declared, in its declaration of independence, that Jerusalem is its capital. The draft also uses euphemisms in place of factual content on the status of East Jerusalem. In sum, this is, in my view, a considerable downgrade from either 7 or 8. nableezy - 16:46, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
3. Long winded and confuses more than it clarifies. --GHcool (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
4. While I like the excising the tautology present in the latter sentence of Draft 8, I disagree with the POV in downgrading the Palestinian state to "authorities"--ColonelHenry (talk) 17:07, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
5. Per Nableezy, it is a partially-recognized state and it is appropriate to acknowledge it as such.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
6. This rephrasing has strayed into something that reads like an essay. As I've said above, I prefer my encyclopaedic style to be succinct. Although this draft covers pertinent facts, it needs to stand up straight and look sharp! Fylbecatulous talk 03:43, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft nine threaded discussion

Draft ten by Kurtis

^ view all drafts

I propose that the following text be considered as the introduction to the article's lead paragraph.

Jerusalem is a disputed municipality within the region of Palestine. It is one of the oldest continuously inhabited municipalities in the world, considered holy by each of the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The city is currently divided between the state of Israel and the Palestinian National Authority, both of which officially recognize Jerusalem as their nation's capital.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft ten

Support draft ten with revisions

Oppose draft ten

Draft ten threaded discussion

I borrowed some of the text from draft 7 above and expanded on it so as to include what I hope will become the introductory sentences of the article. If anyone has some suggestions on what can be changed, I'd be glad to hear it. Kurtis 05:36, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Draft eleven by Solntsa90

^ view all drafts

Tell me what you think. I used the current revision as a template, tweaked it a bit, and created a scenario that should be mostly satisfactory to both parties, or at least, international law:

Jerusalem (/dʒəˈruːsələm/; Template:Lang-he-n Yerushaláyim  ; Template:Lang-ar al-Quds  ) is a city located in Israel and Palestine, and is claimed as national capital by both states. One of the oldest continuously inhabited urban areas in the world, Jerusalem is considered holy by each of the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. It is located in the Judean Mountains (also known as the Hebron Hills), between the Mediterranean Sea and the northern edge of the Dead Sea. Jerusalem is both Israel and Palestine's largest city in terms of both population and area, with a population of 801,000 residents over an area of 125.1 km2 (48.3 sq mi).

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft eleven

Support draft eleven with revisions

Oppose draft eleven

Draft eleven threaded discussion

General discussion

Aspects of drafts

I think all seven drafts are accurate and neutral. It comes down to what aspect (holiness, power, recent history) should be emphasized. Perhaps the last one, number seven, is the best initial sentence for the article because it provides the broadest context about what's going on with Jerusalem. Some of the other statements, or pieces of them, could be incorporated into the lede as well. This should not be so contentious. The situation is that both sides claim Jerusalem as their capital, and Misplaced Pages has no business deciding who's claim is superior. Jehochman 12:29, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Can we get a draft that unifies the key aspects of the other drafts. Each draft has great points but is inadequate stand-alone. A proposed paragraph that combines those points in a single statement would be much preferred, and far more comprehensive.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:12, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

• I took a few moments and combined several elements of the first seven drafts and propose Draft 8 (vide supra).--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

This came up in the prep for the RFC. The people that put together the drafts were focused on the capital issue and how it should be described. That is to say that content being lacking in a draft should not be read as saying that such content should not be included in the lead of the article. nableezy - 15:16, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks for providing some backstory. I agree on the content inclusion issue as well. It is a complex issue, and the more comprehensive we approach it in the view of concision, we can get as close to a clear, neutral and factual statement. Without content/context, a simple statement is inherently controversial.--ColonelHenry (talk) 15:37, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Participation

Not sure whether this belongs here, but I created the item on Jerusalem on Wikidata, and added the description "city in Israel". It was immediately changed to "capital of Israel", and when I tried to make it more neutral I was harassed by a number of Israeli participants. A thread was open in Hebrew Misplaced Pages, where I was called "antisemitic" (if the Google translate gives it right) and some other unpleasant and ungrounded names. The participants of this thread subsequently came to Wikidata to accuse me in God knows what. I am not sure how harassment of participants of this discussion can be prevented, but for me it was certainly less then pleasant experience.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:52, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Source Summary

There are numerous problems with the source summary section.

• First, just before this RFC went live an editor decided he wanted to remove an extremely important point, then went on to make the usual I don't consent, therefore no consensus argument. The point was

No news agency with a guideline for neutral reporting allows Jerusalem to be reported as the capital of Israel.

• Second there are many problems with the "source summary" of "Many sources list Jerusalem as the capital of Israel when there is little room for nuance, but in prose, sources often use qualifiers which show that the status as capital was achieved unilaterally."
• The problems are, "many sources" is actually only a single source so this violates WP:WEASEL. Second, there is no mention at all about the numerous sources which leave blank the capital of Israel when there is no room for nuance, meaning there is no balance and thus bias. Third the statement that "the status as capital was achieved" is from a POV held by less than 1% of the world and disagreed with by the other 99%, meaning it should never be stated as a fact like it has. Sepsis II (talk) 14:27, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

1. http://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=J#Jerusalem
2. http://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=T#Tel_Aviv
3. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/middle_east/israel_and_the_palestinians/key_documents/6044090.stm#jerusalem
4. http://www.guardian.co.uk/styleguide/j
5. http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/propaganda-or-news-associated-press-names-jerusalem-israeli-city
6. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/11/16/ap-issues-correction-after-calling-jerusalem-isreals-capital/
7. http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/STYLEBOOK.20041110.style_1775/Stylebook/National/

Offensive remarks

While I'm all for free discussion, I feel there are a few things that should not be tolerated. For example, I already see one user spewing out denial of the existence of Palestine. I do hope we can all agree that offensive falsehoods like this should be erased as they do nothing to further this RFC and can only detract from it. Sepsis II (talk) 16:35, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree that denial of the existence of Palestine is very inappropriate. Nevertheless, this procedure is for collecting views. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

The best way to deal with extreme views is not to draw attention to them. I am sure they will be ignored in the final outcome. Jehochman 21:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Can someone also deal with GHcool, his !vote rationals like "I don't like the Palestinian claim over Jerusalem (there's no way they'll ever get West Jerusalem in any peace agreement" are ridiculous while his other comments go against the source summary. As an aside, isn't is against policy for GHcool to use his user page to host offensive original polemics? Sepsis II (talk) 17:33, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Can you not do this here? Pretty please? People are going to have opinions you dont like, just as you will have opinions that others dont like. If you think he is wrong refute them. nableezy - 18:00, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Say what you want, and don't focus on what other people say that you don't like. Try to be positive rather than negative. Jehochman 21:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

More sources

Had I come to this discussion earlier, I would have added a few more sources to the source summary above. I've decided to take Mr. Stradivarus's suggestion and give the sources here:

The Continuum Political Encyclopedia of the Middle East is incredibly succinct on Jerusalem's status: "apital of the State of Israel though not recognized as such by most of the international community" (p. 491). This is the first sentence of the encyclopedia's entry under "Jerusalem." Other reference books that explicitly denote Jerusalem as the capital of Israel include The World Almanac and Book of Facts 2007 (p. 785), The Statesman's Yearbook (2005 ed., p. 939), TIME Almanac 2005 with Information Please (p. 797), The Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Religions (p. 285), The World Book Encyclopedia (Vol. 11, p. 94a), Atlas of World Geography (Rand McNally: 2000, p. 44), Webster's New Explorer Desk Encyclopedia (2003 ed., p. 628), and Britanica Online Encyclopedia. Many of the above state that most countries' embassies are in Tel Aviv, but most of them simply identify the capital of Israel as Jerusalem just as they identify the capital of the United States as Washington, D.C. --GHcool (talk) 21:45, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Well I only have access to the one online source you presented, Britanica, which states that "Jerusalem is the seat of government and the proclaimed capital, although the latter status has not received wide international recognition." So that source has obviously made sure NOT to call Jerusalem the capital of Israel. Sepsis II (talk) 21:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I know this is not a source, but a google search for "capital of Israel" reveals, unambiguously, Jerusalen: Israel, capital. -- Ypnypn (talk) 22:08, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Google's source for that is...Misplaced Pages. Sepsis II (talk) 22:11, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

The link to Google above doesn't work, thanks to bugzilla:707. -- Ypnypn (talk) 22:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

An ideal lead sentence would look something like Continuum or Britanica's lead. --GHcool (talk) 22:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi GHcool, looking at the Continuum and Britannica' leads I think there is a significant difference in approach:

• "apital of the State of Israel though not recognized as such by most of the international community" (Continuum p. 491) - I did not check the source, I am transcribing from your comment above
• "Jerusalem is the seat of government and the proclaimed capital, although the latter status has not received wide international recognition." (Britanica)

My view is that Britannica states as fact what is fact: that Jerusalem is Israel's seat of government and Israel has proclaimed that it is it's capital. But it does not state opinion as fact: i.e. that the Israeli actions have had a definitive effect on the city;s status (which is disputed).

Contrariwise continuum adopts the Israeli position on the status of Jerusalem: that it is the capital of Israel. My view here is that there is an important distinction between the two approaches and that the Britannica is more consistent with our policies such as WP:NPOV and the principles on which we write the encyclopaedia. Just a brief note on the continuum source. It appears to be an encyclopaedia of the Middle East written entirely by Israeli scholars. This is not to say it's not a good source or that we shouldn't take it into account. Only that it is not necessarily a source that would be entirely representative of the totality of global views in RS on the topic. Dlv999 (talk) 05:59, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Why should we care about it being unilaterally declared? That sounds rather anti-Israel in POV as long as we say that about Jerusalem but not about other countries' capitals; I doubt that there was much multilateral input about having Thimphu, Bogotá, or Abidjan become or remain the capitals of their countries. Nyttend (talk) 05:11, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Why ? Because much of the spatial object called "Jerusalem" described by the Misplaced Pages article Jerusalem is not inside the spatial object called "Israel" described by the Misplaced Pages article Israel according to anyone but the State of Israel. The situation is not similar to Thimphu, Bogotá, or Abidjan at all. It is more like the Democratic Republic of the Congo ignoring the existence of the Republic of the Congo, treating Brazzaville as part of Kinshasa and unilaterally declaring the combined spatial object as Kinshasa, the "complete and united" capital of the Democratic Republic of the Congo. "anti-Israel in POV" ? I think not. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:35, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

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