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Urgent discussion at Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2013

There is an urgent discussion taking place at Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2013#Elitsa Todorova & Stoyan Yankulov naming issue in regards to how the Bulgarian participants should be enlisted as on Eurovision Song Contest 2013. It would be highly appreciated if we could have as many project members as possible engaging in the discussion, so that a mutual consensus can be achieved. Thank You! Wesley♦ 10:56, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

"Location" section

I continue to have serious problems with this section. I have expressed these reservations to User:Wesley Mouse some time ago, and acted on them when I happened into the 1970 article. In a nutshell, it's this: the section is useless. A paragraph on the history of the host country/city adds nothing whatsoever to the article itself, and the usual accompanying map is nothing but article padding (besides, nothing of value is added by being able to pinpoint Amsterdam on the map of the Netherlands in relation to the 1970 contest--who needs this map?). In Eurovision Song Contest 1970 we read that Amsterdam is the constitutional capital of the country--so what? How does that affect the performances, the ratings, the results, the votes? Why is the etymology of the city of interest? Or its peak economic performance? Besides the fact that there seems to be no rationale behind which information to include and how much space to give it, there's the basic thing that, well, it's useless to the article. I think I know where it comes from: the TV shows of the contests work the same way, with a promotional film about the host city--and that's understandable, but there is no reason for us to follow that format. I think those sections should be scrapped. (And that they're in GAs doesn't really matter much: we all know that the guidelines for GA content aren't that strict.) Drmies (talk) 17:35, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I do think that the section isn't useless, but should be edited in the context of the time period and the contest. Why was it chosen to host? What's so special about the city that made Eurovision go there? That sort of stuff. I tried this in the articles for 1956, 1957, and 1958, if you'd like to see. Mr. Gerbear (talk) 08:51, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I have to support this, as I talked briefly about this myself here (archive), and furthermore as I totally agree with what you both claim from both aspects. As Drmies says and I wanna detail some examples: Population-figures/30% of Malmo are foreigners-origins/Malmo is the capital of Skane county/Sweden's map etc', has no value to cover the organisation and furthermore the contest itself. This belongs in Malmo's and Sweden's independent articles (as any other ESC-host city+country, which are linked from annual ESC articles). And I support what Mr. Gerbear focuses on for relevence, with adding examples that I find feat (and some are covered at the bidding phase section): Malmo as a relatively small city in order to easily devote it's central streets and hang-out places for ESC-symbols decorations and ESC-theme-parties to increase the contest's atmosphere to the city's visitors. Plus using the bridge at Mlmo's location-spot as a motive of connecting "coltures". Also a smaller venue compared to pevious Eurovisions for more personal and modest approach of the producers (making the performances more "touching" to the viewers, make the stadium-crowd phisically-closer to the performers-stage), etc'. This are things that show connection to the reasons of organising the contest in this city and venue and not in other bigger available places as Stockolm with mighty "Friends Arena" and Gothenburg. I Also add in this chance that the "OGAE" section details too much about "OGAE" backgound in the same style of the location-details - it's enough to write 1-2 sentences explenation (with also existing link to OGAE article) and go straight to detail about the results of OGAE members for 2013 contest. The same for "Marcel Bezençon Awards" - though this section is written more to the point so it's better - but still needs to be shorten a bit as well. That's what I think.

As a side note for where this location-details came from - I personaly saw this host country+city statistics written very widely on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages like already 3-4 years ago, and later saw it added to the articles here (though here in a much smaller amount and I'm not saying it's inspired by Portuguese Misplaced Pages). Back a few months ago I thought I'm the only one that it bothers him as I saw this location-section developed in a lot of articles here, and as I figured it was a lot of work for the people that contribute all this info. So now I join my opinion to Drmies and Mr. Gerbear. אומנות (talk) 17:10, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately The OGAE and Marcel Bezençon Awards sections were previously discussed back in July 2012 with the outcome being "No clear consensus has been established on inclusion/exclusion or the presentation of this section, with various proposals being made. However, a new format with a mixture of tables and prose with full sourcing has received significant support and has been rolled out.". The current version that is in use for these are more favourable according to that RfC outcome. We shouldn't use a table of results for these sections, without providing a written prose explaining what these tables are for - which is what we have done. If we don't provide information, then we are not being informative or encyclopaedic towards the non-familiar person who wouldn't know what Eurovision is if it slapped them in the face. Wesley♦Mouse 17:22, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• And I don't think there is a connection with nor an "inspiration" to our Portuguese Misplaced Pages counterparts. That would be pure coincidence, especially when the idea of improving the location section was mentioned by 2 editors that I can remember (one of which was myself, and I don't know a word of Portuguese). The location section could probably do with being improved a little better, without the demography details - something which I now wish I had thought of better during the previous RfC. The main idealogical thesis for the location section was to provide information as to why a city was chosen to host the contest?, anything notable about the venue choice, such as if it has been used previously to host Eurovision, or was there a specific reason why it was selected to host the contest. But location is vital for the articles, we don't mention anything about the host city anywhere within the article other than in the lead section - and the lead is suppose to provide a summary of what is in the article. So how can we summaries about a location in the lead, if it is not mentioned in more detail further in the article? Wesley♦Mouse 17:31, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

The 1st paragraph of "Location" refers to previous hostings in Sweden+Malmo, and the "Bidding phase" section refers to the choice of Malmo+venue over other cities+venues. So basically this 2 views already provide further details for the location-summaries in the lead - when taking 2013 ESC article as an example. However, the 2nd paragraph at the "Location" + the map of Sweden at 2013 article - is what that is basically not relevent (demography but also details as: Skane municipality capital/Copenhagen, the capital of Denmark, is only a trainride of about 30 minutes away, and such). However, it can be added to the "Bidding Phase" that Malmo was chosen with it's venue while it's the 3rd largest city in Sweden, with adding to Stockholm and Gothenburg biddings details, that these are the 2 bigger cities. That way, this size-detail which furthers information about Malmo - becomes relevant as highlighting SVT and EBU approach to make the contest smaller and more personal than previous years. Also, if there is a statement from SVT as favoring Malmo beause of easy access and closeness to Denmark (for Danish ESC-fans for example) - the detail of Denmark-Copenhagen's distance is to be mentioned - as another factor within the "Bidding Phase" section. BTW, I referred to Portuguese-Wiki as the place I saw it, with writting I didn't think it was inspired from there, but thanks for explaining how it developed here within your hard work on the articles.

About "OGAE", I wrote to make a brief introduction, not to jump straight to it's voting results for 2013 ESC, and yea I saw there wasn't 100% agreement on 2012 discussion and why I thought of bringing it up. I mean like this:

OGAE, which was created in 1984, is one of two main ESC-fans organizations and includes OGAE sections from most countries that take part or took part in the Eurovision and other regions which operate "Rest of the world" OGAE. As of 2002, "OGAE" sections held a voting for this year's songs, with Denmark wining the concluded voting, and Norway, San-Marino, Germany and Italy finishing 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th respectively".

In other words, I think this sentences are too much: Though ESC began in 1956, OGAE began in 1984/Every year, the organization puts together four non-profit competitions (Song Contest, Second Chance Contest, Video Contest and Home Composed Song Contest). Such details and phrasing belong to the main "OGAE" article with it's entire background and operations. And as I showed above, I think the top 5 songs should be mentioned along with the text of “OGAE”'s basic introduction (Marcel Bezencon too). If it was widely agreed on the 2012 discussion to introduce tables for top songs (with flags and all songs details again), and I’m alone on that - at least I got to contribute my humble opinion. :) אומנות (talk) 23:24, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

We are not just discussion location on the 2013 article here, but on all articles (1956 - 2014). The bidding phase section was only introduced in 2011, when several cities in Germany wanted to host the contest. The map was implemented to show where each of the bidding cities where located (although it was not implemented by myself though). From thereafter, (2012 and 2013) maps to show city locations of the bidding phases where continued. This prompted the discussion during the RfC last year, and maps have been implemented across all the articles to maintain a consistent look throughout every article, seeing as there is a Eurovision-theme throughout them all. The 2012 article achieved GA status through all of the hard work put into it by several project members, and the GA reviewer was impressed with the location section and especially the map idea to show where the cities are located - so these must be providing some sort good in terms of educational value to the non-familiar person to Eurovision. What seems to be an issue is what is written in the prose, as at first (and probably a temporary measure until we can think of a better solution) was to add the lead section from the relevant city's article into the ESC article, and then evolve it better from there.

As for the other awards section, the new layout has become more favourable with members throughout the project. I don't see anything wrong with having a table showing the top 5 OGAE winners, along with the scores achieved. It is providing factual evidence in an encyclopaedic style. Previously, these sections used wikilinked headers to allow a reader to visit the OGAE page to find out more about that particular contest, but guidelines state we cannot use wikilinks on article section headers, so the only way around that was to evolve it into a brief prose explaining what the OGAE is about, and then show the top-5 results for that particular year. If we were to only show the results, and then someone came along to view the article who hasn't got a clue what OGAE is about, then they would be confused and probably think the results are part of Eurovision. Is it not wise to make things clear to someone who doesn't know, rather than use jargon that only Eurovision-fans would know? We need to think of the general audience here, and not just ESC fans. Wesley♦Mouse 11:34, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I wrote that I'm using the 2013 ESC article as a good example to demonstrate an approach to each annual article with his host country+city - meaning 1956-2014 and beyond. There is some issue with the map as well. You wrote that the map "must be providing some sort good in terms of educational value to the non-familiar person to Eurovision". I see these as true - only replacing it with the key word: "non-familiar person to Sweden's-Geography - similarly to what Drmius said - as it doesn't teach about the show/organization but rather about geography, as another example to each country and it's map on an annual ESC article. Though indeed the map doesn't personally bother me as much as the things written in the prose.

About "OGAE" - I detailed an example that include those sentences that introduce the organization, and afterwards describing the results of this year - so the reader understands that the scores refer to OGAE's-organization and not part of Eurovision regular results. I just suggested to drop from this section contents that seems off, as: "Although ESC began in 1956, OGAE began in 1984 in Finland and the sentence about other events that aren't even related to ESC: Every year, the organization puts together four non-profit competitions (Home-video song Contest...) etc'. The scores of the top 5 OGAE songs can be easily added to the body of the text, like this: Denmark winning with 281 points, Norway finishing second with 200 points, etc'. I think it's most weird that the OGAE top 5 introduced also with their composers and lyricists, while the other ESC songs aren't. I can understand that the "Marcel Bezencon" introduce composers and lyricists since it also awards them, but still think they should be mentioned as well in a regular text body. אומנות (talk) 13:36, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to suggest that we pause here for now, as CT Cooper and I have spoken about rebooting an RfC for ' in the Eurovision Song Contest', which was put on hold late last year. Once that is out of the way, then we could look into reviewing the RfC which finalised in July 2012, for which we discussed layout of 'Eurovision Song Contest ' articles. Although consensus can change, I pretty much doubt the layout would change dramatically, especially when the current layout has gained 3 GA's on annual articles - and that is a first for this project. Changing layout dramatically could bear a major impact on those GA articles, which would subsequently need to be reviewed for GA status again. And a lot of editors worked very hard to get those articles to GA standards based on the curren t format. Wesley♦Mouse 14:10, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how the issue of rebooting RfC for Countris in ESC should put on hold the progress of this discussion. It causes putting on hold 2 issues instead of at least progressing 1 while the other is on hold anyway. And of course that the suggestions here are supposed, hopefully, to strengh the article as being GA status, and are written with work of thinking about and trying to improve as possible. I see there are few people that have issues at least in regards to the "Location" and that think it needs to be changed. In regards to "OGAE" and "Marcel Bezencon" I understand that currently I'm the only one who refered to this and that it can just be expressed here as my one-humble opinion - without being changed at the article. Anyway, in my last-previous comment I feel that I managed to explain and finalize my views and my suggestions about what I meant exactly regarding shaping this matters layouts, so I personally currently don't have something to add. אומנות (talk) 15:16, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• I have looked (following a suggestion made above) at ] (and 1957). But what I see there is a summary of the history of those cities. Those cities have articles; there is no need for any information on the city in these articles especially since none of the sections in the articles I've looked at have anything at all to say on the Contest in those cities. Wesley, that some of the articles are GAs doesn't change anything. They didn't become GAs because of those sections--if I had been the reviewer and passed them, they would have been passed despite those sections. To recap: "location" information is only relevant if there is information relevant to the subject of the article. But don't take my word for it: nominate one of them for FA, where content matters are more closely looked at, and see what happens. You will also find that the flags will all be erased per MOS:FLAG, no doubt. Drmies (talk) 16:27, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• I am starting to see that the location sections should really be reflecting on information as to why the host city was allocated (such as winning the previous year's contest) and why the host city was elected. Was it because of hotel capacity to be able to hold a large number of delegates, or were there other reasons behind the decision to elect a particular host city. The current method of repeating what is used on each respective city article may be someone monotonous and boring to the general reader. They probably would prefer to know why a city was chosen rather than reading the history and demographics of a city. If anyone wants to improve those sections, then feel free. At the moment, I'm up to my neck with real-life personal issues. Drmies, you know of one of them already, as we have spoken about it over the last year. Wesley♦Mouse 16:35, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Yes: that's the kind of information that will be valuable. Take care, Wesley. There's no rush. Drmies (talk) 16:49, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Germany or West Germany?

Hey, WikiProject Eurovision. I noticed that Mike22r (talk · contribs) edited a bunch of the yearly Eurovision pages, changing Germany to West Germany. Do we have policy on this? I think that it should be presented as West Germany if they were introduced as West Germany in the contest itself, which will have to be double-checked. (Also, said user changed "spokespersons" to "spokesmen", which I undid per the Manual of Style on gender-neutrality). Mr. Gerbear (talk) 08:48, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Kazakhstan in Eurovision

Please could we be extra cautious in regards to Kazakhstan in the Eurovision Song Contest. Sources are saying they are renegotiating, so why have we decided to create an article for them and classifying as "unsuccessful attempts", when they have never applied to participate yet, due to the fact they know they are not EBU active members. Slow down folks, please! Wesley♦Mouse 19:34, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Contest result made it to main page news.

Exactly what it says on the title. I guess it has been there since Saturday, but I only saw it now. Congrats to everybody here! Not A Superhero (talk) 03:46, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, but ESC winners are WP:ITN/R, which means they are usually guaranteed to appear on the main page ever year. :) --] 13:23, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

MGP Junior (Denmark)

I've just come from Talk:Dansk Melodi Grand Prix#MGP, where an IP has said that MGP refers specifically in Denmark to the Junior version (MGP Junior (Denmark)), and not to Dansk Melodi Grand Prix which retains its full name. To put it short, the 'Junior' in MGP Junior (Denmark) seems to have come from somewhere but is not included in the name, I'm considering moving the article, put unsure of to where? MGP (Denmark) redirects to MGP which could be use, but can anyone else think of something else? --] 13:32, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I suppose the article for the adult version could be renamed "Melodi Grand Prix", and the Junior version be renamed MGP. Wesley♦Mouse 15:33, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

But the official name is 'Dansk Melodi Grand Prix', which should stay where it is. It's 'MGP Junior (Denmark)' which needs moving, it can't be moved to MGP since that is a disambiguation. --] 11:42, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Ahhh that is a tricky move then. Hmmm perhaps the junior one could be renamed 'Dansk Melodi Grand Prix Junior'. But failing that, then I guess its one of those articles that we cannot rename due to technicality disambiguated pages. Wesley♦Mouse 13:16, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Rewrite of OGAE article

I've done a complete rewrite of OGAE, and improved it from the poorly written version it used to be; most of which was word-for-word copy of the "about" section on OGAE's official Facebook page. It assessment was start-class, and I've upgraded it to C-class. I would appreciate for someone to have a glance and cast a second opinion on my reassessment and/or do some tweaking that may be necessary. Thank you. Wesley♦Mouse 15:44, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Belgium @ ESC 2014

Talk:Belgium in the Eurovision Song Contest 2014. --Edgars2007 11:33, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

It is way too soon for that article to be created. I will redirect it to Belgium in the Eurovision Song Contest for now. Wesley♦Mouse 13:18, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

1996 Semi-Final/Pre Qualifying Round

Why aren't the results of the 1996 pre qualifying round on all of the countries pages. At the end of the day the pre qualifying round is officially a 1996 non televised semi-final. I just think that the 1996 semi-final results should be added to all competing countries individual results. For example Russia, Macedonia, Israel and Denmark all competed in 1996 but they didn't qualify from the semi-final, so why isn't this stated in their results on their pages? User talk:Karlwhen 00:03am, 8 June 2013 (GMT)

The results themselves are mentioned in the main article Eurovision Song Contest 1996#Pre-qualifying round, and in some of the country articles that did not qualify such as Denmark in the Eurovision Song Contest 1996. But if you notice, not every country in the 1996 Contest has yet got an article in its own right. Why that is, I have no idea. But I suppose it is like the old proverb "Rome Wasn't Built in a Day"; which is basically a Misplaced Pages guideline meaning there is no rush to get everything done immediately. Although, this is something which will probably be brought up again when I get around to re-booting the RfC on '' in the Eurovision Song Contest; and '' in the Eurovision Song Contest ''.

I have mentioned to a couple of Project Members regarding OGAE Second Chance Contests, purely because I've taken on the burden of extensive work on all OGAE-related article and bring them up to a near-high standard. Songs that take part in OGAE Second Chance, are songs that competed in National Finals and missed out on the winning ticket to represent their country at the main Eurovision Song Contest. These songs that take part in OGAE could really be done with having a mention about their participation at OGAE and how well (or badly) they did. And this is something which I intend to raise at that aforementioned RfC. Wesley♦Mouse 23:15, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Template for the Sanremo Music Festival

Hi! A few months ago, I created an infobox template to be used in the articles about each annual edition of the Sanremo Music Festival, the {{Infobox Sanremo Music Festival}}. However, the template is currently under discussion for deletion, and another user suggested to generalize it. I think the better solution would be to generalize the {{Infobox Eurovision national final}}, adding some fields that are currently missing. In particular, we should add fields to specifiy the winners of additional sections (the "Newcomers section" and the additional ones which were occasionally introduced) and the winners of the critics' prize, as well as a field to specify the name of the artist selected as the Italian entry to the ESC. Moreover, the Sanremo Music Festival is not properly a national final, since it took place even when Italy did not compete in the ESC, and it was established before the ESC itself, therefore I think the "Eurovision heart" logo should not appear in that case. If there is consesus on this, I'll start to work on "merging" these templates. Any additional comment or suggestion is welcome! --Stee888 (talk) 20:26, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Other templates

Keeping on the topic of templates, we current have Template:Escyr which is {{ESCYr|1999}} → 1999 (and I have found the template very useful especially when it comes to providing links to annual pages). But we don't appear to have one for Junior Eurovision. Is it possible to have this template modified so that we can include JESC or would a new template need to be made? Also would it be possible to have one for OGAE Second Chance Contests and OGAE Video Contests? Wesley♦Mouse 05:37, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

RfC on the article layout of Eurovision Song Contest by country articles

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This RfC will attempt to address what sections and content should normally be included in Eurovision Song Contest by country articles, such as Romania in the Eurovision Song Contest, United Kingdom in the Eurovision Song Contest, as well as Ukraine in the Junior Eurovision Song Contest and so on. Wesley♦Mouse 11:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

As promised at the previous RfC on the layout of Eurovision Song Contest by year articles, now that the dust has settled, it is time to restart an RfC on the country ones as well (the previous RfC can be found in the talk archives. Like before, at least initially, this RfC will primarily be on a section-by-section basis with discussion on if a section listed should be included or not, and if so, what content should it contain and how should it be formatted i.e. as a table, list, or prose? This would be also a good opportunity to discuss if any sections should be split into sub-articles. The results of this RfC will be used to determine how such articles should be laid out in the future. Please note that this RfC also covers the Junior Eurovision Song Contest and any other sister/spin-off contests covered under WikiProject Eurovision where applicable. Wesley♦Mouse 11:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Section-by-section

Feel free to add any other sections which need discussion as appropriate. This listing includes a section if it is present in two or more Eurovision Song Contest by country articles, these being articls listed under countries at Template:Eurovision Song Contest. Wesley♦Mouse 11:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Lead

• Add comments here.

Infobox

• Add comments here.

History

• There are many variations in how history content is presented across articles. Often there is simply a history section, as in Albania in the Eurovision Song Contest as the heading across articles, or there is just an absences section instead (e.g. Portugal in the Eurovision Song Contest), or sometimes history related content is split into several sections, as in Italy in the Eurovision Song Contest. Wesley♦Mouse 11:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

We should probably standardize what goes in the history section, and some sort of outline on how it should be written, just for consistency's sake. Mr. Gerbear (talk) 06:31, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Records

• Sometimes appears, as in Ireland in the Eurovision Song Contest. Wesley♦Mouse 11:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Seems very trivial and unnecessary. If it can't be incorporated into the history section then it's probably not worth mentioning at all. Pickette (talk) 19:40, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Contestants

Should incorporate links to individual country by year articles. Also, a limit on the amount of pictures that get added? Pickette (talk) 19:40, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Voting history

About the "Most points given" and "Most points received", I think that we should make it clear what points are given and how. I am personally in favor of separating completely points given in finals and points given in semifinals, and I'm not too strongly opposed to keep only points given in finals.

One think I'm completely in favor is removing anything that goes like "NOTE: The tables with points from 2004 include points awarded in both finals and semi-finals where the highest point from the final/semi-final is picked." I think this metodology is kind of arbitrary and the results are unclear. Not A Superhero (talk) 15:39, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I had mentioned on the old RfC for these that the voting history can be a bit of a hindrance at times. They are constantly a target of IP vandals, and when they do alter them, then we are having to manually re-calculate the voting history (which is now in its 58th year) and goes against WP:SYNTHNOT, which then makes the calculation original research as there is no actual website that contains these overall voting results. And also it was pointed out last time by CT Cooper that they violate the spirit of WP:NOR and WP:SYNTHESIS. So I still support a full removal them, unless someone can convince me that they are more valuable than a headache and are not violating any guidelines. Wesley♦Mouse 15:55, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Does this website suffice for a source? I think that it's best to keep this information in the article as it is valuable. Mr. Gerbear (talk) 06:35, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Ooohh something like that would mean that we're not infringing WP:SYHTHNOT, WP:NOR, and WP:SYNTHESIS. I wonder if there is a way that we could protect just these sections from the grubby hands of vandals? Wesley♦Mouse 13:48, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

MrGerbear, that website you provided has been an absolute godsend of help. All this week I've done an extensive exercise across all the country articles and updated the voting history sections accordingly using the database from that website. So if any of them change between now and the next Eurovision, then we are safe to say they're vandalism edits. I've also been bold and simplified the section headers for these sections. All of them used "Voting history (19xx - 20xx)". Why have include a chronological period in the section header? A simple "Voting history" as a title is very self-explanatory to show what that section is all about. A very brief prose that I have used (for example "As of xxxx, 'Country' voting history is as follows..."). That allows us to be flexible with the years, and removed the need to include years in the section header. I've also modified the tables themselves, and the look much better than they previously were. So I am now more inclined to support these sections existence. Although perhaps a short paragraph to explain a bit about them would be an even bigger improvement. Wesley ☮ Mouse 13:39, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Hostings

• Present in Austria in the Eurovision Song Contest and a few others. Wesley♦Mouse 11:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Marcel Bezençon Awards

• As I wrote under at the OGAE section and as I wrote above at the ESC annual articles at the location section - presenting only brief-necessery background on this organization, after and in relation, to country's achievements in one or more of it's awards-categories, and blend it as a paragraph alongside OGAE paragraph, split public/jury results paragraph under sub-section "Achivements", and alongside sub-section of "Incidents" - and put all of this under the scope of section "Country's participation in public" or "Country's participation in public and media". אומנות (talk) 22:29, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Winnner by OGAE members

• Example: Hungary in the Eurovision Song Contest. Wesley♦Mouse 11:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Winning a fan poll doesn't seem that important to highlight in such a way. Pickette (talk) 19:40, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Well actually, I think the OGAE sections are just as important of a section as the rest of the Eurovision-related material. It did seem to be in favour by some at the last RfC that this could do with being improved in the way we did on Eurovision by Year articles merge this, the Marcel Bezençon and the Congratulations:50 Years sections together under the header "Other awards". Add a brief prose to explain what they are with a hatnote to direct to the main article. And then style them in the same way as we have on ESC by year articles too. Besides, some of the songs from national selections go onto OGAE Second Chance Contests and furthermore win those contests. So we could do with finding a way to tie-together the two (Eurovision/OGAE). And IMHO the only way we could do that is by using the "country" articles. Would be a shame to see all that hard work on improving the OGAE articles go to waste. Wesley♦Mouse 02:03, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't think so. The Marcel Bezençon awards and the Congratulations: 50 Years event are created/endorsed by the EBU, while the OGAE voting is just a fan poll for fans and who they pick as the "winner" is irrelevant and pretty trivial. The other contests OGAE organizes are as notable as the various fan contests organized across the internet. Pickette (talk) 13:59, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Actually you are incorrect there Pickette, believe me I should know - I have been spending long hours researching these so that I can get the respective articles improved to a high standard. The Marcel Bezençon awards have been around since 2002. In 2002/2003 OGAE were responsible for awarding the "Fan Award", which was endorsed by the EBU. Since then the award recipients have been decided by the international press, the commentators, and a jury. Also OGAE is recognised by the EBU as a trustworthy organisation. The inclusion of OGAE material is just as important to country articles as they are to the annual articles - and with a lot of significant support from a lot of project members in the past in regards to the inclusion on annual articles. Wesley♦Mouse 14:14, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd only include the 2002/2003 Marcel Bezençon Fan award then as that is the only time the OGAE voting was actually recognized as an achievement of some kind. It has since been discontinued for whatever reason. I don't support the inclusion of various OGAE factoids across the Eurovision articles. Just because the EBU has recognized the OGAE as a trustworthy organisation for fans doesn't make everything they vote on or do notable and relevant. Pickette (talk) 14:34, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

So the simple fact that OGAE are voting on Eurovision songs that are mentioned on Eurovision articles means they should be ignored!? Have you forgotten Pickete that we are discussing Country in the Eurovision Song Contest articles here? Marcel Bezençon has its own article, so if we're to no longer include OGAE, then we should no longer include Marcel Bezençon either. We shouldn't be favouring one over the other - they are both as equally recognised as the other, and they are both in relation to Eurovision, which is the main factor here. OGAE is just as notable as the Eurovision Song Contest - so to exclude something that is notable from an article is just utterly pathetic. I think one needs to familiarise themselves with WP:GNG guidelines. Wesley♦Mouse 15:21, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Before saying that OGAE is as notable as the ESC (which I don't follow: how does a fan organization match the contest in notability?) are there multiple, third-party, non-Eurovision-centric sources that cover the OGAE? Only then can they be notable enough for inclusion. You also say that OGAE is trustworthy to the EBU, but you link to an OGAE page. We need third-party sources to verify everything. Re-read WP:GNG, sources must be ""independent of the subject".

Try taking yourself out of the Eurovision bubble: would you think the OGAE is notable? Mr. Gerbear (talk) 15:26, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

In answer to your question regarding third-party sources Gerbear, yes. ESCToday, ESCXtra, and other Eurovision websites all mention and have links to OGAE clubs. And one only needs to search for OGAE on Eurovision.tv to find that they too show support for OGAE by reading the numerous articles published by the EBU. We have also used OGAE sources for citing material such as confirmed participation on Eurovision by Year articles throughout the years. As for the other contests, OK they are organised by a "fan club", but those contests contain songs from national preselections, and unless I have misunderstood the meaning of a national selection for the last god knows how many years, then there is the connection between OGAE and Eurovision, which the two could do with being tied together to add knowledge to the general reader. And the only way to do that would be via Eurovision articles and vice versa. Take for example 2012 contest. Pastora from Spain went to Baku with the song that won the national selection, although she did not win in Baku. Yet on the otherhand, one of the other songs from the same national final went onto the OGAE Second Chance Contest and won that. Notability that one of Spain's songs from their preselection process (which are mentioned on Country in Eurovision articles) should really have a mention. Wesley♦Mouse 15:49, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Hardly any source outside of Eurovision fansites mention OGAE contests and fanclubs and the winners of their voting. Eurovision fansites only report on it because they cater specifically to Eurovision fans. In the scope of the contest and the country in the contest, it's entirely irrelevant. The Marcel Bezençon Awards are organized and distributed by the EBU during the contest and are a part of the contest. OGAE voting and their various contest results are only relevant to Eurovision fans. Pickette (talk) 16:33, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Well naturally OGAE will only be mentioned on Eurovision-related fansites - the clue is in the name "Organisation Générale des Amateurs de l'Eurovision". You're not exactly going to find them mentioned elsewhere now are you! The same goes for Eurovision; the majority of news is reported on Eurovision-related fansites. The Marcel Bezençon Awards were not created by the EBU, they were founded in 2002 by Christer Björkman, who was Sweden's representative at Eurovision 1992. And if OGAE contest results are only relevant to Eurovision fans, then why do so many former Eurovision participants agree to participate in the respective OGAE contests, and graciously accept the awards they win? Why do so many representatives also attend OGAE club meetings? If OGAE is not important to this project, then why do we include them within out project scope? The fact that it is fan-based is irrelevant here. The fact that there is a connection between Eurovision and OGAE, needs to be outlined and that connection portrayed across to the unfamiliar reader (one who is none the wiser about Eurovision) about the success that some participants from National Selection Shows, which are organised by the national broadcasters, which are also members of the EBU. So when we write about Pastora Soler in Spain in the Eurovision Song Contest 2012, and mention that "Quédate conmigo" won the ticket to Baku, while another of her entries from the same selection show "Tu vida es tu vida", which finished 2nd in the national selection, went on to OGAE Second Chance Contest 2012, and came 1st. That isn't important enough to mention to the general reader? Well if that's the case, then why bother even mentioning any of the other songs that too part in national selections on these articles? Might as well be simple and only write about the songs that were only selected. Wesley♦Mouse 16:55, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

The fact that OGAE contests aren't mentioned elsewhere is a good reason why they shouldn't be mentioned on Misplaced Pages either. The fanclub results are irrelevant to the entry and the contest. I don't know why OGAE is in this project's scope, to me it seems like a bunch of fan articles with information only a fan would ever look for. It instills some kind of false importance that a song with no competing stake won an online second chance fan contest. It's way too trivial and irrelevant in my opinion. As for covering national finals, they provide background into how an entry was selected to represent a particular nation; an entry that is actually competing in the Eurovision Song Contest. And the Marcel Bezençon Awards are integrated into the lead-up to the contest and covered on eurovision.tv with a news article and a video recording. Pickette (talk) 17:26, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Wesley, the important thing here is that we must only include things from sources that are independent from the topic in discussion. Things that don't primarily have to do with Eurovision.

Also, it's faulty logic in saying that taking a closer look at OGAE's notability would lead to ignoring national selections. They have little to do with each other's notability. Mr. Gerbear (talk) 18:46, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

My view is that both OGAE and Marcel Bezencon achivements are sided with additional but not main value achievemnts, can't be equal to the actual voting and info of ESC evening-shows, but also that OGAE have value and interest for the ESC from public-fans point of view.
Story: I myself was involved in some activities-parties of OGAE-Israel and I saw that after all, it's a very small group of fans (like 70) and that the voting is very casual. Also, there is the simple fact that OGAE and Marcel voting isn't influencing ESC outcome (unlike ESC vote and also national finals that choose entries for forming the international contest, like has been said). Also, the OGAE consists of only hundreds of amateur fans, while ESC vote is based on hundred-thousands of people with maybe millions of text-votes and professional juries with some of them being well-known. On the other hand, OGAE members doing vast activities including making organized trips in different ESC countries as well as bringing many ESC singers (like in 2012 Izabo from Israel and Valentina Monetta from San-Marino attended the party in Israel), and in 2013 it is known that SVT saved many standing-places close to the stage for OGAE mambers, as well that in previous years OGAE members get "journalists-cards" to attend press-centers and get places in the audiance. Overall, during the last years the OGAE is one of the factors that keep ESC alive with it's massive-eager fan support and activities, while some of the public lost interest in ESC compared to older years. And I also agree that it's natural that OGAE news will are mentioned on ESC news sites - since this is their place and connection. Also news about ESC contest itself are mostly mentioned on ESC-sites throughout the year and only mentioned in the wider-media some days before and after the international contest and on a certain country's wider-media some days before and after it's own national contest/selection.
So I agree in parts and disagree in parts with the other views. (And my view relate to both Countries in ESC articles and Annual ESC articles - as I wrote here above at the Location section). Both this OGAE and Marcel awards shouldn't be emphasized equally with different sections and tables like the info and table of the country's ESC entries and voting achievements. They should be mentioned briefly in a regular text of seperate paragraphs under a united section, with focusing on the country's awards in them and then give only necessery background informtaion about OGAE and Marcel Bezencon - so the article stays focused on the relevent issue and not written in a way that it enters the OGAE and and Marcel Bezencon "worlds". Only information about the essence and function of the organization in relations to ESC - without mentioning founders and things as that it's not political/non-govermental. It's enough to write that it's a fan club organization and give reference within the paragraph to the main OGAE article - where all this other details are elaborating on the organization.
אומנות (talk) 22:19, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Proposed idea

Hypothetical example with Italy with imaginary examples of winning some Marcel awards, some OGAE awards : Taking achivements and incidents of this country's overall ESC participation and specific entries - in regards to media and public attention and acceptance - and put them on "Italy in the Eurovision Song Contest" article like this:

(SECTION:) Country's participation in public (or: Country's participation in public and media)

(SMALLER TITLE OF SUB-SECTION:) Achivements

(paragraph and table about Public vs. Jury results:) From the year 2008 onwards, the EBU based the Eurovision Song Contest voting on the scale of counting the public votes as 50% and the jury votes as 50% of the outcome, with also publishing after the contest's finals the split results. Here is how the public and the jury voted for Italy seperately since 2008:
(Underneath this paragraph adding a table with columns of Year, Public's placing, Jury placing on final and semi-final - in the case of Italy only final. This table elaborates on the first table that shows the final and semi song's title/language/performer/overall-combined placing - and give the achivement of each song from 2008 onwards from the public and jury's views. However there is no need for scores, only placings - useless to write how many points the song achieved when there isn't introduction of other country's songs from that year to compare with. On the other hand it's good to write placing and in brackets how many songs competed in each year - giving an idea about the quntity, competing field).

(Paragraph about Marcel Bezencon:) In 2007, Italy's entry "La-Li-Pop" performed by "x" and compsed by "Xx", "Z" and "M", won the Composer Award of the Marcel Bezençon Awards for most original composition, as voted by a jury consisting of the 2007 contest's entries composers. In 2011, Italy's entry "Madness of Love" won the Press Award, as voted on by the accredited media and press during the 2011 event, and the Artistic Award as voted on by the commentators, with the Marcel Bezencon organization holding three categories; Press Award, Artistic Award and Composer Award, first handed out during the Eurovision Song Contest 2002 and which are named after the creator of the Eurovision Song Contest - Marcel Bezençon.

(Paragraph about OGAE:) In 2007 and 2012, Italy's respective entries: "La-Li-Pop" and "L'amore è femmina (Out of Love)", won the voting of OGAE - Organisation Générale des Amateurs de l'Eurovision, an international organisation that was founded in 1984 and consists of a network of 40 Eurovision Song Contest fan clubs across Europe and beyond.

(SMALLER TITLE OF SUB-SECTION:) Incidents
In 1974, Italy's entry "Si" by Gigliola Cinquetti was censored from radio and television stations in Italy due to claims of political message before the Italian elections, in 1985 Italy originaly had an entry named "I love Italy" which was accused by critics of plagiarism and was replaced with the entry "Magic ho Magic"...

In my view, this is the most valuable and interesting way to present such public and media information in all ESC articles - capturing it under such section of public and media acceptance and achivements. As for other contests of OGAE (like with the example of Pastora Soler which her song that finished 2nd in the NF won OGAE second chance), my view is that it's not relevent anymore to "Country in Eurovision" articles since it's about songs that didn't reach ESC to begin with. But on the same scale, I think such information can be blend in more specific articles such as: "Spain in the 2012 Eurovision Song Contest" or "Spain's National Final for 2012 ESC" - in a way that shows how this specific national final songs that were performed by Pastora Soler, as comprising this specific national-final event - got accepted and what other awards and titles they achieved within the public and the media.
אומנות (talk) 22:19, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeah I think an Other Awards section with a brief paragraph referring only to whether a particular entry was the winner of the OGAE vote is better than letting it have its own section and including a table. But I would only support OGAE facts being referred to when they are in regards to voting for the entries in a particular Eurovision Song Contest. References to contests that the OGAE organize, such as Second Chance, should be left out of all Eurovision articles, in my opinion. The contests they organize are purely fan material of interest to only OGAE members and possibly some other Eurovision fans. Pickette (talk) 18:46, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I have noticed a slight error on my part. I forgot the RfC I rebooted was just for Country in Eurovision; and not Country in Eurovision by Year articles. When I mentioned about national selection songs that went onto OGAE being noted in articles, it was on the Country by Year articles; to which they would be better included; as it we would be providing informative details regarding a song that took part in a national final. Wesley♦Mouse 12:42, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Eurovision fans are NOT automatic OGAE members though, which is what I getting at. Pickette (talk) 14:29, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

You should stick to discussing the matter at hand rather than me as a user. Pickette (talk) 15:27, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I've simply been discussing this OGAE matter here. I never made a personal remark about you or discussed anything other than the topic of this particular discussion. Feel free to re-read this discussion. Pickette (talk) 16:20, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I wont comment on that because I'm not going to derail this discussion with stuff like this. I've done nothing wrong here and I've stayed on topic. If you have a personal issue with me, you can comment on my talk page. Pickette (talk) 17:04, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't know what your question is really? But maybe you can clarify a bit and ask it on my talk page and I'll answer. Pickette (talk) 18:22, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Wesley, I don't know what the history is here between you and Pickette, but I can see nothing rude about the way he has responded to you above. Please could you lower the tone - this is after all a public place for discussing the article. AndrewRT(Talk) 15:28, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

OK, Wesley, I think it's you that needs to take a Wikibreak. I saw no condescension coming from Pickette at all. The first sign of hostility was when you said "OGAE members are Eurovision fans, d'oh!" This was unwarranted; her statement never contradicted that. All she was saying that in the greater scheme of things, OGAE-organized contests are non-notable. And then you say "Calm down Pickette before you give yourself a hernia," after what seemed like a natural, non-offensive response from Pickette. The only attitude I see in this entire discussion stemmed from you, Wesley, which mostly comes from a lack of comprehension in what Pickette is trying to say. Please assume good faith, and keep calm and rational. Disagreement does not equal a personal attack.

Also, I chanced upon Pickette's talk page where you both agreed on an Interaction Ban. Does this mean that Pickette is no longer welcome in this discussion, as you are involved as well, Wesley? I find this rather disconcerting.

All in all though, I agree with אומנות's format. I do prefer sticking to prose rather than putting things into tables, which is more encyclopedic. Mr. Gerbear (talk) 06:12, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Mr. Gerbear, we are discussing the matter on Wesley Mouse's talk page. If you're interested in knowing what is happening in regards to this, you can look there. For the record, I don't endorse Wesley Mouse's account of the events on AndrewRT's talk page and I've never sent malicious emails to Wesley Mouse or anyone on Misplaced Pages for that matter. I didn't even know email was possible on Misplaced Pages until I was accused of doing such a thing. Pickette (talk) 20:15, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for trying to make amends with each other. Hopefully everything turns out well for the good of the Project. Mr. Gerbear (talk) 00:41, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I've had a bit of an idea regarding this section, and would love to read the views of others. Details on OGAE would probably be better off being included in articles such as Austria in the OGAE Second Chance Contests, although there are no such articles as of yet, and they would probably fail the odd wikipolicy here or there. But if such articles were allowed, then would this be a better solution to the whole OGAE issue? At the end of the day the contests must be notable enough for them to be reported on Eurovision-related websites. What is notable to one may not be notable to another, but nevertheless notability is there. It is like what is common knowledge to one person may not be as common of knowledge to another. And without spreading that knowledge, then we would not be assisting it to become common knowledge to everyone. And then perhaps in articles that this RfC is covering, we would only need to briefly mention them in prose format perhaps using the suggestion that אומנות (talk · contribs) mentioned above? And I still think that mentioning any song that failed in a national final but gained success in an OGAE contest could be worthwhile adding brief detail about, but of course in their respective annual pages such as Spain in the Eurovision Song Contest 2012. Wesley ☮ Mouse 13:50, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Commentators and spokespersons

• Some variations in the heading across articles. Wesley♦Mouse 11:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Congratulations: 50 Years of the Eurovision Song Contest

• Present where applicable, such as in Turkey in the Eurovision Song Contest. Wesley♦Mouse 11:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Incorporate into history section? Pickette (talk) 19:40, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Notes

• Add comments here.

See also

• Add comments here.

References

• Add comments here.

External links

• Add comments here.

Other issues

• Discuss any other issues which don't fit under a section heading here. And I would suggest that all project members be notified of this discussion. Wesley♦Mouse 11:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I have been invited to comment here by the RFC Bot and come here as an outsider not aware of the history, so apologies if I'm repeating something that has already been discussed.

I am entirely unconvinced of the value of this approach. What is relevant, reliably supported or stylistically desirable will vary considerably over the articles in this section. It would make more sense to write each article individually based on the information that is available in reliable sources and relevant to the particular country and/or year. The danger with the standardised template approach is that we will end up forcing in unsourced or poorly sourced information just because it says so in the template. Hope this is helpful. AndrewRT(Talk) 15:18, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

San Marino in the Eurovision Song Contest 2014

Is it still too early to create such an article? I thought about making it but the information announced so far is limited to the announcement of the artist. Pickette (talk) 19:38, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm 50/50 on this one. In my opinion I would say such articles should be created as soon as there is information regarding national selections. However, others tend to say wait until there is a plethora of details, so that we avoid premature articles becoming victim to the deletionists, who are always so eager to place WP:PRODs on such "minimal" articles (which is a phrase I have seen deletionists use in the past) - although I would probably defend the article if a PROD did appear on it. We know Valentina has been pre-selected for now, but that's about as much information that we know. Would it be better to highlight this early information on San Marino in the Eurovision Song Contest for now, and then expand into its own annual article once we know more on the selection process? Wesley ☮ Mouse 19:56, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

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