Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:09, 8 August 2013

8 August 2013

Elexis Monroe

Elexis Monroe (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I believe this article was deleted for an inaccurate reason. What complicated things is that the relevant guideline it satisfied, WP:PORNBIO, was under discussion at the time, and it was thus interpreted to not be a valid guideline for proving notability (btw, that guideline ended up not being changed at all). I contacted the original admin who deleted the article about it before I realized that s/he is on vacation, so I re-created the article with an explanation as to why I did so...because the subject passes point #1 of PORNBIO: having been nominated for two non-scene-related awards in multiple years (Acting Performance of the Year - Female in 2011 and MILF Performer of the Year in 2012). Still, another admin speedily deleted the article without warning earlier today, and attempts to get him/her to even userfy the article were unsuccessful, so I brought it here. Erpert 00:59, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

• If we're talking about the recent G4 speedy deletion, then I'm inclined to overturn. The articles appear more than cosmetically different, and it's been over a year since the deletion debate. Consensus can change, and I think Hut 8.5 (talk · contribs) was wrong to assert that "...you can't reverse the results of AfD discussions simply because you don't agree with the outcome" (see User_talk:Erpert#Elexis_Monroe for full discussion). That's simply not the case. Re-creations are permitted all the time. If we were talking two, three weeks after the original deletion then that would be a different matter. Mackensen (talk) 02:24, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

  That comment was not intended to imply that AfDed articles can never be recreated, but that an editor who disagrees with the outcome of an AfD cannot restart the page with the same content. G4 doesn't have any sort of time limit and the AfD is only from last year. Hut 8.5 08:58, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - A few questions and/or concerns. First, it would nice to be able to view the actual article that was recently speedily deleted to judge whether it really does meet PORNBIO, but it appears that it would based on the info here, which shows two 2012 (AVN & XBIZ) "MILF Performer of the Year" nominations and one 2011 XBIZ "Acting Performance of the Year - Female" nomination. Second, are there any lingering copyright issues (as hinted to here) with this recent re-creation? Third, it doesn't appear to me that the former AfD discussion is really relevant here in any event...so maybe taking this article back to AfD might be a solution? Frankly, I'm unsure how to vote here given the limited options presented here. Guy1890 (talk) 02:37, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
  • If I may, let me clear up a few procedural questions. The original AfD is irrelevant; all that matters is the speedy deletion. I've undeleted both the article and the talk page to help. I believe the talk page also helps address the copyvio issue (sounds like a false positive). Mackensen (talk) 02:45, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
• Overturn speedy deletion - based on the above discussion & a review of the most recent article talk page & article content. Thanx for restoring both histories as well. Guy1890 (talk) 03:03, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
• I agree, the article should be restored since it passes WP:PORNBIO, which states "Has won a well-known and significant industry award, or has been nominated for such an award several times". While PORNBIO doesn't specify what "several times" means, I feel that two awards is sufficient for "several", but some users don't believe that two is enough and that is why articles like these are often deleted. I was planning on creating this article myself and I know of other award nominations she has received. Elexis Monroe has been nominated for an XBIZ Award for Acting Performance of the Year - Female in 2011, AVN Award for MILF/Cougar Performer of the Year in 2012, and two XBIZ Awards for MILF Performer of the Year in 2012 and 2013. Four performer awards is more than enough to pass WP:PORNBIO. Rebecca1990 (talk) 02:59, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
• Deleting admin: the article did not differ significantly from the version that was nominated for deletion. Be careful with your versions if you check this: the recreation was based on the article at the time it was nominated for deletion, not the article at the time it was deleted. Some material was removed during the AfD for WP:BLP/WP:OR concerns which has now been put back. Here is the comparison you should be using. The only non-trivial difference is the addition of a section on "Health issues", which should have been mostly or entirely removed for BLP concerns (it includes an allegation that the subject was fraudulently using donations referenced only to someone's blog). The recreator left a comment on the article talk page in which they said they had recreated the article not because they had addressed the concerns in the AfD but because they thought the AfD decision was wrong and they felt they could overturn community consensus unilaterally. This is the kind of situation G4 is meant for. The article did not claim that the subject has been nominated for any more awards than the AfDed version did, and those nominations were not considered sufficient to confer notability at the AfD. Hut 8.5 08:58, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. The deleting admin's analysis is entirely correct. Note that the original AFD was conducted under a less stringent version of PORNBIO than exists today; that the guideline is now more restrictive is hardly a basis for overturning the AFD. The underlying AFD concluded that such awards as "MILF Performer of the Year" did not satisfy the "well-known and significant" standard of the PORNBIO guideline (supporters of deletion described it variously as "a downlevel category with no discernible standards" and an "industry-promoting award"), and no reason has been provided here for setting that consensus aside, nor has any reason been presented here for disregarding the AFD consensus that the subject fell so far below the GNG that possible technical satisfaction of the SNG was irrelevant. It's also curious that comments from prominent porn enthusiasts have shown up so rapidly here, and suspect canvassing. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 11:27, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

• The nominator did notify a wikiproject here (not that this is necessarily inappropriate). Hut 8.5 11:30, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

• DRV has always been reluctant to enforce year-old AfDs. PORNBIO was a defective guideline at the time that AfD took place, and at that time DRV was openly refusing to implement it. The guideline has changed for the better since. Although I can't see any reasonable basis on which one could contend that Elexis Monroe is notable, I agree that procedurally speaking, it would take a fresh AfD to establish that.—S Marshall T/C 12:15, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry; I just don't see any logic to the position that because a guideline has been tightened up, a deletion consensus under the less restrictive version is somehow suspect or needs revisiting. It's already too easy for porn publicists to get promotional pieces into the project, and allowing past deletions to be revisited every time another set of tinfoil trophies is handed out en masse is just a formula for wasting constructive editors' time and effort. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 12:23, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

• list at AfD It's been a year. I personally will be voting to delete I think (I'm not seeing WP:GNG met and I'm not sure two==several) but consensus can change. Hobit (talk) 15:08, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. Straightforward case of G4, evidently the exact same article (largely the same wording), but most crucially: still exactly the same situation with respect to notability. No new arguments. There was a legitimate consensus for deletion in the AfD, and just because the author doesn't like the outcome doesn't give him the right to unilaterally overrule it, as he evidently wishes to do. Yes, theoretically, consensus could change, but there isn't the slightest indication suggesting that it has, or that it should (as others have noted, the relevant guideline has, if anything, become more rigid in the meantime). The argument that "it's been a year" is unconvincing: we don't just re-run every contentious AfD every twelve months just because somebody feels like it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:50, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
  • A lot of the !votes discounted PORNBIO as flawed. Now that it has become more rigid, it might get more traction. Seems worth holding an AfD to find out... Hobit (talk) 16:55, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
    • According to the closer there was consensus that even if PORNBIO was valid then the subject would not pass it. Hut 8.5 16:59, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
• Comment. Just to let the closing admin know, the users who are !voting to delete here are the same users that !voted delete before, but...it's because they don't like the guideline, the category the subject is nominated for, or pornography at all. Since when are those valid reasons to delete? And as far as Future Perfect at Sunrise's allegation that I am reopening this because I didn't like the outcome, I already clearly explained to Hut 8.5 that that isn't what I'm doing. Since last year, people have started to realize in these porn-related AfD discussions that that's what some of the delete !voters have been doing, which thus resulted in some such articles being restored (why do you think Capri Anderson came back?). And as far as WP:PORNBIO becoming more rigid, well, point #1 of that guideline (which Ms. Monroe still passes, and she passed back then too) hasn't changed at all, and it is still satisfied. Care to explain how it isn't? Erpert 17:09, 8 August 2013 (UTC)