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Access to deleted images on Commons

Jimbo, as you know, when images are deleted on Commons those images can still be viewed by admins. Without going into the details, I recently contacted Commons' Oversight Committee about nude images whose filenames contained the name of the subject and were uploaded without the subject's consent. I was told by one oversighter "I am not convinced that these images fall under our oversight policy and would prefer them to be taken care of by regular deletion". "Regular deletion" would mean that these images could be viewed by any of the current 271 admins on Commons.

Oversight should be automatic in cases where there is reason to suspect that the subject has not consented to the uploading of the image. Removing the image from public view while leaving it visible to hundreds of people (the vast majority of whom have not identified themselves to the WMF) is unacceptable. While this situation occurs all the time on Commons, it may also occur on any other project that allows image uploads. In the case that I refer to earlier, admins would have had access to naked images of the subject, along with her name. That was more than enough to track her down online, should anyone wish to.

Jimbo, can you help me to get the WMF's Access to nonpublic data policy changed or amended to take this situation into account? Point 6 of the policy seems to say that deleted revisions are not covered by the policy. I do not believe that the intention of the policy is to allow any admin to access non-public information of the nature I have described. How can I get the board to review the policy with my example in mind? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:49, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

While in general I trust Commons admin to not access such private images without an administrative reason to do so, currently such views are not tracked and so there are no checks or audits on this. On the other hand oversight can make it more difficult for Commons admins to do their job when undeletion is requested, or when validating that other admins are deleting images according to policy. While I tentatively support Delicious carbuncle's proposal under the present circumstances, I think an audit log recording views of deleted material is a better option and necessary in any case. Dcoetzee 15:46, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

This is about admins having access to private and personal information, which is exactly the type of information that is meant to be restricted by WMF policy. I take it as a given that admins will access deleted images without cause. It would be both naive to assume otherwise. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:17, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

My take on this is that, assuming the above description of the image and associated personal data is correct, the image should indeed be oversighted. (I have no personal experience with oversight decisions, so this is based only on my reading of Commons:Commons:Oversight and meta:Oversight policy.) However I'm not convinced that a "reason to suspect" subject consent for upload wasn't given should automatically trigger oversight, although IMO a "reason to believe" should probably be enough.

IMO admin tools shouldn't be a big deal, and admins shouldn't generally be placed in a position where they are dealing with such private information. But I also don't see a great need to track views of deleted material. Disclaimer: I'm an admin on Commons, and I've viewed deleted material when I've felt this would help me follow or contribute to a discussion on Commons. --Avenue (talk) 05:29, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

On second thought, tracking views of deleted material might not be a bad idea. Viewing deleted material does require admin tools, and I believe that for all such tools there should be a way to audit their use to establish whether or not any abuse may have occurred (even for tools like these which have no direct effect on the wiki). --Avenue (talk) 06:08, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Moreover, I think already deleted images like File:Teen boy's Nipple.jpg should be reported to legal-reports AT wikimedia.org for a bolder action per inappropriate image of a child. JKadavoor Jee 13:51, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

That particular image was "kept" in each of the three deletion requests. It was courtesy-deleted some months later, which should clearly have been the result of the original deletion request. I am suggesting that all courtesy deletions also be oversighted (no additional request should be required) in order to be in compliance with the WMF policies. If we have reason to delete the image from public view, why would we allow hundreds of admins free access to the image? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:57, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

All courtesy deletions, even ones that don't show a human being? I hope not. Courtesy deletions with privacy implications? Perhaps, nothing against such a change to the oversight policy. Tracking anything and then perhaps asking admins to explain themselves simply for looking at something? I strongly oppose that, this should be left for extremely sensitive information like the information available to checkusers, not standard admin tools. darkweasel94 (talk) 00:05, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Whether or not an image shows a human being is not a good way of determining if there are privacy implications. I suggest that in every case of courtesy deletion, the image and logs are oversighted. Having had much experience with the judgment of some Commons admins, I would not leave it up individual discretion. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:10, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I think there's a big difference between a few hundred admins being potentially able to view your image, if they happen to find out about it and feel the need to do so, versus your image being the top Google hit for certain searches, for instance. There are legitimate reasons for admins to review deleted content, including some courtesy deletions I think.

By the way, a guideline for courtesy deletions on Commons is currently being developed here (talk), so that might be a more effective place to raise these concerns. --Avenue (talk) 06:11, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

That would require DC to contribute constructively, so it won't happen. -mattbuck (Talk) 07:12, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Moreover, it would require people to understand that this applies to all projects and that I am asking Jimbo to help me get the WMF policy (not the Commons policy) fixed. I know better than to waste my time trying to get the Commons problems addressed on Commons. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 14:41, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Quoted there. JKadavoor Jee 08:04, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Very disturbing and eye-opening essay by retiring editor on how "Wikidata" is turning WP volunteers into unpaid workers for Google and other corporations

I invite Jimbo and others to comment on the reasons why this editor is leaving : User:Riggr Mortis - "As long as Misplaced Pages drifts from its origins as a tool for human learning to a second-rate quasi-database—apparently to the benefit of ADD-inducing tech companies—I will no longer participate as a volunteer. Neither should you." If this has been discussed here before, apologies.Smeat75 (talk) 03:23, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

not sure how he can say that. wikipedia has zero tracking scripts. ghostery does not show any analytics at all, beyond wikipedia's own. -- Aunva6 03:30, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

One of the factors leading to that essay is the ongoing infobox war, now at Arbcom. Johnuniq (talk) 04:09, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, so as a community we're putting effort into structured data. But why should that imply that we're losing interest in the traditional encyclopedia text? Aren't projects like Wikidata additive? GabrielF (talk) 04:16, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

There is a long and very ugly backstory associated with the link in my above comment. In brief, about a dozen good editors who develop content for classical music (and related) articles have come to an agreement that certain articles are best without an infobox (example—check its talk). Another group of editors, smaller in numbers but much more vocal and prone to litter talk pages with links to prove their case, insists that infoboxes are mother's milk—one reason mentioned concerns metadata that infoboxes provide. For example, Google (and a host of others) crawl articles developed by volunteers, and extract key points, and that is done most easily from an infobox (or other structured data template, but infoboxes are the most common, and are maintained by volunteers). Google (and others) can then display that key information to their readers to save them the bother of going to Misplaced Pages to see the article. The essay mentioned above is strongly objecting to the battles that have been fought by those trying to insert infoboxes against the wishes of those who have built the article (which leads to questions like "are we editing for our readers, or for Google's commercial interests?"). You can read the views of both sides (rather confused, I'm afraid) at the Arbcom case I mentioned. Johnuniq (talk) 05:48, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

One possible compromise is to go the route of persondata and have hidden structured data which is present but not displayed in the article. This comes with disadvantages though, like errors being less likely to be detected. Dcoetzee 15:40, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

• An ageing bureaucracy spends more time shifting departments: For years, management experts have warned about expensive distractions when work is split among different departments in a bureaucracy. Data records might be shifted from one computer system into another, where the rules change ("only one interwiki link per language per article", "infobox for every person"). Because of the implicit overhead in running an wp:ageing bureaucracy, attention (and resources) will divert from the core mission, from the original goals. Each department might develop competing, alternate tools: Platform Engineering would have a wikitext editor, while the User Engagement department would promote a VisualEditor. Each department would want to be represented in the user interface, most likely with dedicated menu options for each department, rather than hide the less-used tool (VE 9%) as a preference option, and instead receive "top billing" with the other department's tools. In the ageing bureaucracy, there will be periods of huge restructuring (typically recalled "reorg"), where the original work is overshadowed by the busy efforts of the reorg. When Wikidata took control of interwiki links, then page edits soared by +30% that month (+1 million edits) not to improve references, nor copy-edit for grammar, nor reword to clarify pages, but instead, total edits soared by +30% to remove the interwiki links from pages while being shifted into the Wikidata department. As could be expected, Misplaced Pages's bureaucratic growth has risen faster than the original goal as an encyclopedia, which would have written articles about the problems of bureaucracy, such as: ageing bureaucracy, reorg, division of command, duplication of effort, department rivalry, interdepartmental conflict, interoffice conflict, or even Management by Objective. However, there is a minimal article about "The Peter Principle" (and "creative incompetence") for workers to avoid promotion outside their limited expertise. In many cases, the office bloat is unstoppable; however, it can inspire people to research and write about similar problems in other old-growth organizations, before the burgeoning layers of bureaucracy become (more) unbearable. -Wikid77 (talk) 06:02/15:48, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

There is some validity to the original argument - there has long been a debate about CC-by-NC versus CC-by-SA, GPL versus LGPL, etc. Misplaced Pages chose to make its product available to corporations, and so far this seems reflected mostly in online drivel that comes up at the tail end of Google's search results. My feeling is that if we are developing only for Google, then this is a problem; but if we are creating a resource that actually serves competitors also, and one wishes even some free alternatives, that is another story. (This goes all the way back to the unfortunate 'WP:NOT' and the failure of Misplaced Pages, or preferably a sister project, to act as a primary search engine and directory to begin with)

There is a very good argument to be made that Wikipedians are unpaid laborers in general, and from a class war perspective (which is ever more valid nowadays) that is a big problem and you can weigh whether the class-war advantage of getting information to people outweighs it, and whether that is retained when your goal is to get out data more easily used by corporations. However, when we recognize that copyright and intellectual property is a failed system, that it is failed for rich and poor alike, a block to overall technological progress so that even the ultra-wealthy elite commanding those legal powers finds itself without the medicines, entertainments, and inventions that they would have had if it were reformed, then we should see Misplaced Pages as more importantly a proof of principle of voluntary collaboration (as well as a demonstration of its pitfalls whenever a central authority exists).

In short, Misplaced Pages editors should not be unpaid -- we should reform the copyright system so that individual taxpayers set aside an amount of money roughly equal to what they would have spent on copyright, and choose how to allocate it to independent funding organizations that support content generation (subject to very small monetary upper limits per recipient per taxpayer vote to prevent abuse). In other words, instead of copyright royalties we should have voluntary choice of who to fund, so that filmmakers, Google back-end programmers and Misplaced Pages editors all can collect actual cash for their work according to what voters think is important, without anyone being prohibited from reading or copying anything. Wnt (talk) 15:36, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

So someone is led to retiring because we're making it easier to reuse data and make Misplaced Pages interoperable with other tools? I am sorry but I can't think of anything else but "insane" when reading this essay. -- cyclopia 15:47, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

The issue is to "reuse data" but also not trample the wishes of the people who wrote the original data. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:07, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Licensing is how we deal with wishes of people who wrote the data. If you don't want your contributions to be used in ways you wouldn't think of, you better not contributing to a project under a free license.-- cyclopia 16:47, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

In Misplaced Pages, how we deal with wishes of people is by wp:Consensus, so pages would not be changed in "ways you wouldn't think of". When someone says "no" it means "no" and so a dialog must begin. -Wikid77 17:20, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

No. What can be done with your contributions only depends from the CC licensing. So much that it is perfectly legit to rip WP, print it and sell it as books, even if this infuriates many people. Consensus is instead only about what we here, on WP, actually manage such contributions. And consensus can decide to do everything which is permitted by the licensing, including things the original contributor would have never thought about and that maybe even despises. The contributor surely then has the freedom to disagree and retire, but cannot say that he couldn't expect this to happen. If someone doesn't understand the consequences of the licensing, it's their fault, not ours. -- cyclopia 11:24, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's vision is to help create a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. I'm sure you know who formulated that laudable goal. At present there are 7 billion people on Earth and we have only 116,790 active editors on the English Misplaced Pages, so we are going to need some help to reach every person on the planet. The big players like Google are our fellow-travellers in that mission - for whatever their reason, I don't care; I only know that these people are generous with their time and resources and you only need look at Google Summer of Code for a good example. A Google Talk on "Intelligence in Misplaced Pages" shows some of the innovative ways that they use our data. I fully endorse making our content more easily available to all of our re-users, because without them, we're going to have an uphill battle to fulfil Jimbo's vision. And before some little troll tries to smear me with unsupported innuendo, I have no connection whatsoever with Google (or any other commercial interest - I'm happily and comfortably retired, thank you). --RexxS (talk) 16:44, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

A reasonable sentiment - still, to be fair, if people are going to tell us that Misplaced Pages is "not a directory", why must we avoid saying it is not a repository for machine-oriented datasets? (To be sure, I'd rather resolve this by allowing a directory function) There's a certain perverse bias with the Wikidata implementation so far - you can make really good use of the data if you run a server and import json or xml, but you can't put that into a straight Misplaced Pages page. So far the Lua is more limited, hardwired to only access fields from a specific article name, and the #property tag even more so. Mind you, I'm not agreeing with the person the OP referenced, but ... he's not altogether without a point. Wnt (talk) 00:01, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Which is good for him. How is your own search for a point going on, Wnt? Let me know if I can help. Begoon  00:17, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

If Misplaced Pages were a directory, every two-bit holiday company would be writing about itself in every scuba diving article, so that prohibition is useful. There's no corresponding reason for us to suggest that Misplaced Pages doesn't contain a massive collection of machine-readable datasets. On the other point, back in May, three of us demonstrated how you can use a Lua module with a slightly modified template {{Infobox person/Wikidata}} to pull the relevant parameter value from the Wikidata entry for whichever article contains that template - there's a quick report at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/Wikidata Phase 2 #Progress in implementation with Lua. It was set up to allow a local value to override the Wikidata one. Allowing us to draw our data from a source common to all language Wikipedias (when we choose to) offers considerable potential advantages in gathering and maintaining that data, not only to us, but to many smaller wikis who don't have the resources of enWP. --RexxS (talk) 01:52, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

• Just because we're making it easier for someone else to make money, yes even a "big" company like Google, doesn't mean we're not benefiting humanity in a manner similar to Misplaced Pages's roots. Money grubbers already mirror Misplaced Pages directly, and I didn't sign up to help them out, but I don't care much that they exist. In contrast, at least Google uses my efforts to provide services people actually find useful. Equazcion 02:25, 8 Aug 2013 (UTC)

I hate Infoboxes. Infoboxes should be eliminated. They are a bad idea. A well-written article doesn't need an Infobox because information is easy to find in the body of the article. Section headings and a table of contents should be tailored to that particular article with the aim of making the information in that article easy to find. Bus stop (talk) 02:51, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

@Equazcion: That's not really the issue—nearly all content builders accept that any good article they create will end up being sold by someone in a "book". Content builders object to having infoboxes forced into articles they have developed, with one of the justifications being the metadata matter. As a matter of interest, there is a proposal here to add "gender" for metadata purposes. Johnuniq (talk) 03:02, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I fail to see the difference. Services that benefit people should be hindered because a company is also profiting from it? Why? To prove a point? To stick it to the man? Misplaced Pages is about providing your knowledge for free to whoever might use it for whatever purpose. What's the difference if it's structured data or prose? The same argument holds either way. I guess it sounds scarier when you throw around words like "Google" (big ie. evil) and metadata (automated ie. evil), but really, it's all the same. Equazcion 03:16, 8 Aug 2013 (UTC)

You say "What's the difference if it's structured data or prose?" In some cases there is no difference. But in many cases we are forcing information into fields in Infoboxes in which it does not quite fit. There is compromise involved in filling in fields in Infoboxes, in many cases. Prose is much more expressive. Information can be presented with much more subtlety in prose form than it can in the limited choices of possible terms for filling out the fields in an Infobox. At issue is accuracy versus inaccuracy. The potential is there to be accurate when using prose but sometimes accuracy is impossible when filling out Infoboxes. Bus stop (talk) 13:00, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Perfect is the enemy of the good. Yes, the strict format of an infobox may sacrifice some accuracy. But infoboxes and prose, AFAIK, are not meant to be mutually exclusive. You can have a quick, at-a-glance, machine-readable box, but of course you refer to the article prose to get the full, nuanced picture. Best of both worlds. You say you hate infoboxes because "a well-written article does not need an infobox". I don't agree in general with arguments of the form "if we have X, Y is useless". That you don't find them useful doesn't mean nobody finds them useful. I think well written articles can still benefit of the structured, quick, standardized presentation of an infobox. You may find them redundant, but some people do not, and if you choose to remove them, you remove a useful tool for many only because you don't find it useful yourself. -- cyclopia 13:44, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

If you want to get a taste of the sort of thing Johnuniq is talking about, you could have a look at , just for one instance of many. A volunteer has spent hours, days, weeks, months or years working on an article out of love and desire to share his/her knowledge, along comes someone else who has made no previous contribution and adds an infobox which the creator of the article does not want. When the objection is made "the infobox does not add anything useful" the retort is "Yes it does, it emits "metadata" that people can see on their mobiles and Google, etc., can re-use." This is an all-purpose reason for a combative and aggressive campaign to attempt to force infoboxes on articles all over the project and quite a few content creators do not like it at all. Primary contributors to articles who do not want infoboxes in the articles they have worked on are also sure to be told "You don't own this page. Smeat75 (talk) 04:16, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

The issue is the fact that there is an infobox war, and metadata is just something that arose during skirmishes. There would be no problem if a group of people were adding invisible metadata boxes to articles. This is not the place to continue that battle (and I am not advocating for either side)—I'm just reporting that good reasons have been provided by the developers of certain articles as to why they find infoboxes to be unsatisfactory, and the issue is that a group of people with no interest in developing an article have insisted that an infobox be added (I am advocating that the latter is unsatisfactory in the absence of a policy mandating infoboxes). Johnuniq (talk) 04:24, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I guess I can't speak to other arguments against infoboxes since I haven't seen them, assuming they exist beyond the general distaste I have seen from some. I will say that the wishes of the "primary" contributors shouldn't take any kind of precedence; The counter-arguments based on WP:OWN are perfectly valid in response to arguments referencing the amount of time or effort contributors spent creating or developing articles. We have that policy to deal precisely with these types of situations. You shouldn't contribute here if you think you have some sort of right to maintain control because it was "your" work. Equazcion 05:02, 8 Aug 2013 (UTC)

The situation is not as you imagine it. Let's AGF and assume there are plausible arguments against an infobox in some articles, and we know there is no policy or guideline mandating their use. For any particular article, the question then becomes "does consensus favor the addition of an infobox?". Everyone knows that consensus is not local, and that no individual is more important than another, and that no one owns an article—everyone involved knows that basic stuff. The problem is that one side says that consensus favors their view because only their arguments are policy based, while the views from the other side are simply IDONTLIKEIT. Meanwhile, the other side says pretty much exactly the same thing, and there is no procedure to decide the outcome—that's why it is at Arbcom. Often third parties form a view based on whether they favor infoboxes, but that is not the issue. The problem is the disruption caused by the combative nature of the campaign. One resolution would be to ban both sides from making changes while a community-wide RfC is held to settle the question—are infoboxes mandatory? However, leaving it to the present participants is causing enormous damage. Johnuniq (talk) 06:37, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I came to post my thoughts on User:Riggr Mortis's essay that the OP pointed out, and various subsequent comments in this section. Whether those concerns are being voiced on their own or they are being used as an argument in a larger war, I find them invalid. I wouldn't get into the larger matter here. Equazcion 06:52, 8 Aug 2013 (UTC)

"The problem is the disruption caused by the combative nature of the campaign." Quite so, and it appears to me that the handful of aggressive pushers of infoboxes have "ownership" issues not just with single pages but the entire project - "Gotta move with the times and put machine-readable metadata in every article!" Smeat75 (talk) 12:34, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

• Encyclopedia anyone can edit with database certification: Previously, we tried to limit the Misplaced Pages data to free-form lists which any user could edit, as any typical page with rows of data, such as rare population-data templates. But now, it has become official data-identifier groups. Misplaced Pages has become total schizo, like Jekyll/Hyde+Eddy, with Dr Jekyll saying, "Remain calm and use the point-and-click editor" to change the page; meanwhile Mr Hyde says, "Please complete the data description in third normal form and select the data-identifier" to be changed. Meanwhile, both Jekyll and Hyde are trying to deny their alter-ego Eddy Conflict, who insures, whether too simple or too complex, the data update will fail to save. Whatever happened to simply editing the wikitext page, and building tools that checked for problems or Bot-edited the repetitive data? Instead, people are asked to use peculiar data-entry screens because the simple wikitext pages are now too-easy-no-too-hard (which is it?) for newcomers to handle. This is apparently another aspect of an wp:ageing bureaucracy, where one department argues how the data is too complex, while another department argues how the same data is too simple and requires data id-codes for the end-users. -Wikid77 (talk) 07:16/07:27, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
• If you don't want your contributions edited or reused elsewhere do not post here - To the question of the infobox wars - the ARBCOM case makes interesting reading and highlights how a small number of people can hold the rest of wikipedia to ransom until there is a final decision by the community. There is a similar issue on the various policy and MOS pages where a small number of people can dictate what should be done. On the subject of woring for Google. The German Misplaced Pages has developed an internal project on listed buildings where in a number of the German states the responsible departments are using the feedback and edits of our editors to update their data. Agathoclea (talk) 11:42, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
• I am late to this - I was busy in the ArbCom case.

1. The heading reads as if someone is retiring now, but it was last year.
2. The essay is as old and not related to 2013.
3. Adding structured data does not take away the prose text, so how does it "trample the wishes of the people who wrote the original"?
4. May I point you to a simple comparison of an article with infobox and without? I would like like to learn how consensus can be achieved. I am late to the wars as well which - I was told - have been named so in 2005. Can we move forward? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:41, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

" The essay is as old and not related to 2013." The person who wrote it amended the essay on 13 July.Smeat75 (talk) 14:08, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Taken. I was just so used to people repeating in the arbcom case their experiences of past years instead of looking at evidence from 2013. I would like an answer to "Adding structured data does not take away the prose text, so how does it "trample the wishes of the people who wrote the original"? I compare the prose to a book, the infobox to its cover, with structured data like title, subtitle, author, year, publisher, location? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:52, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Also, for wider problems with Wikidata, people are complaining that interwiki links are forced now as one-to-one ("That link is already used by another page"), whereas enwiki allowed many articles to all consider the same target-language page as their "interwiki link" to that language. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:20, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

For what it's worth - the person who wrote the essay is one of the brightest and valued contributors to scores of important articles related to the arts. His absence is a major loss...Modernist (talk) 17:20, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

• Similar fears about other long-term editors: Many of us were similarly scared that the turmoil about VE, derailing the "" button to force VE on prior (all) JavaScript users, and subjecting people to buggy software (while edit-conflicts not yet fixed), would discourage the power users, further destroying user morale; however, I think most of the long-term users are persistent and continue to help despite all the turmoil. Plus, now we have more examples of how the power users work on WP, with 96% of username-based edits using the wikitext editor instead of VE this week. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:21, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

First of all:

• A longstanding problem on Wikimedia Commons - I've heard this talked about at least five years ago - is that a child from, say, France has no way to find a picture of a duck, since the category tree is based on either English or Latin. One aspect of Wikidata is that we may be able to link the commons category for ducks with the Wikidata links to articles on ducks in other languages... thus getting the local-language names.
• Searching is a two-way street. It may make things easier for Google, but it makes it easier for Google to direct people to us.

So, honestly? It may have incidental benefits to Google, but it'll benefit us first. Adam Cuerden 10:27, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Readership statistics by public organizations

It seems reasonable to publish readership statistics localized to the IP ranges of Congress, the White House, the Supreme Court, etc., but how about public companies? Would anyone's privacy be violated if we found out what Koch Industries was reading about? How about private prisons? Do prisoners even have access to Misplaced Pages or some supposedly sanitized subset? Is it fair to know what Australia is reading about? Should each range of IP addresses be associated with a CIDR-style subrange over which readership statistics may be queried by interested parties? 70.59.30.138 (talk) 07:59, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Keeping track of which IP addresses read a page would be an irresistible lure to various spies looking to subpoena or otherwise obtain records, and its use even in aggregate would be highly unethical and partisan (as in the Koch Industries case). If the NSA wants to keep those sort of records they can pay their own bill for the server to track and store the connection data, not sponge off Misplaced Pages donors. Wnt (talk) 11:30, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

But the IP address information is already in the squid logs. Why would studying the aggregate readership statistics of a corporation be unethical? 70.59.30.138 (talk) 08:42, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Wow, Jimbo's talk page must be where stupid ideas come to die. - 50.195.59.125 (talk) 02:43, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Constructive debate involves providing reasons for beliefs. 70.59.30.138 (talk) 02:52, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Question

Jimbo a month ago you said "I personally think in general Snowden is an "innocent party" - a hero, in fact." Yesterday one of your admins said "Good point, there are some (non-pedophile) subject-matter experts in prison who could be very helpful. It would be great if we could get, say, Bradley Manning to start editing. Mark Arsten (talk) 23:07, 7 August 2013 (UTC)" So it looks like Wikipedians and you personally praise Whistleblowers, then why Misplaced Pages's Whistleblowers are treated so badly here, on Misplaced Pages? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.240.35.86 (talk) 22:52, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

To clarify, my statement about Manning should really be read in the context of the thread at the village pump. What I was saying (in response to some editors who were categorically opposed to anyone in jail editing Misplaced Pages) is that there are some people in jail who would probably make good Wikipedians. I suspect that Manning or Snowden would make fine Wikipedians. But I don't think I've ever stated on Misplaced Pages my opinion of whether their leaks were heroic or misguided. Mark Arsten (talk) 02:20, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

And I'll respond by saying that I'm unaware of any "Misplaced Pages whistleblowers" being treated badly.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:32, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I guess I don't count as a whistleblower. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:10, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Why did you think that you would? And why would you want to? So now you know, Delicious carbuncle. Please arrange to fix this disagreement. Thank you.--Demiurge1000 (talk) 04:23, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure who you are quoting or which disagreement you wish me to fix. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:37, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Does it sound to you like a well-adjusted person or not? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 04:47, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I'd rather not speculate. Perhaps you can just say whatever it is you are trying to say. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:55, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Don't worry sweetie, I'll wait. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 04:58, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, honey. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:39, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

DC, you do count as a whistleblower, and a very successful one. Not only you were able to free Misplaced Pages from some of its trash, but so far you've survived your whistleblowing. Hope it stays this way. Your noble task hasn't finished yet. 71.202.121.42 (talk) 14:24, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

The overwrought screed that Demiurge1000 quoted has been rev-deleted by User:Mark Arsten with the comment "Removing per WP:POSTEMAIL". Demiurge1000 does not seem to have been warned either for posting it or for his rather obtuse comments here. Anyone who know the origin of the quote is welcome to contact me. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:09, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

To hark back at the past somewhat, William Chester Minor would be a good case to consider. -- Hillbillyholiday 05:03, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Great link! The OED has always been so snooty about its precious copyright, and meanwhile it's being written by a volunteer in a loony bin. We should never forget that copyrights are not meant to reward creators, rather those with power in the marketplace. Wnt (talk) 11:16, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Is that so, Mr. Wales? Then maybe you could comment on the case in which the Misplaced Pages inner circle banned edits from 1,000 homes and one massive online retailer in an attempt to suppress the voice of one man? ""We aren't democratic." That's how Misplaced Pages founder Jimmy "Jimbo" Wales described his famously-collaborative online encyclopedia in a recent puff piece from The New York Times Magazine. "The core community appreciates when someone is knowledgeable," he said, "and thinks some people are idiots and shouldn't be writing."This is true. Despite its popular reputation as a Web 2.0 wonderland, Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. But the totalitarian attitudes of the site's ruling clique go much further than Jimbo cares to acknowledge. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.240.37.48 (talk) 16:12, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, if nothing else this is a rather enlightening piece that demonstrates why we don't block IP editors indefinitely.--Mark _{Just ask! WER TEA DR/N} 21:24, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Block log here. Wnt (talk) 21:35, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I think you may have misunderstood my point, but I was rather vague. Sorry. I meant that a recent discussion on AN about blocking IP users for only a short period verses indef block seems to be reasonably demonstrated in that old 2007 article.--Mark _{Just ask! WER TEA DR/N} 21:57, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm still catching insults related to when I helped blow the whistle on an abusive group of editors/admins in Misplaced Pages about five years ago. Notice that nothing has been done to stop this particular editor from continuing to hector me about it. There is no protection for whistleblowers in Misplaced Pages. Also, Jimbo, I think you sent me a rather critical email when I spoke to the media about yours and David Gerard's range block of that town in Utah that someone else mentioned above. Cla68 (talk) 12:17, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

It's absolutely fascinating to hear Jimbo say, "I'm unaware of any 'Misplaced Pages whistleblowers' being treated badly." Sometimes the whistleblowers are journalists who carry a problematic Misplaced Pages story to a wider audience. Take, for instance, when Seth Finkelstein (at the time, a journalist for The Guardian and a winner of the Electronic Frontier Foundation's Pioneer Award) observed how a member of ArbCom released a controversial decision without the consent of the rest of ArbCom, Finkelstein asked for a NPOV summary of the personnel involved in the matter, Seth was treated rather badly by being told, "Real journalists don't involve themselves in stories they are writing about." It's difficult to imagine a more dismissive tone than this being leveled at a sort of Misplaced Pages whistleblower, but the Wikipedian who treated Finkelstein so badly was never admonished for this rotten attitude. More recently, a professional journalist named Kevin Morris blew the whistle about former "Wikipedian of the Year" winners not actually receiving the money they had been promised. Morris is a former ABC News Carnegie Fellow, with a Masters degree in Journalism. Nonetheless, his reception on Misplaced Pages was as follows: "The author is not a real journalist." I can't imagine a more insulting thing to say to a professional who has studied and practices in a particular craft, but the Wikipedian who treated Morris so badly was never admonished for this rotten attitude, either. So, it's fairly reprehensible for Jimmy Wales himself to say he's "unaware of any Misplaced Pages whistleblowers being treated badly", when he himself is a prime nominee for the "Worst Treatment of Misplaced Pages Whistleblowers Award", if one should exist. - 50.195.59.125 (talk) 12:16, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Not to mention, Larry Sanger was roundly vilified on Misplaced Pages for his publicizing the problematic nature of certain "youth focused" sexual material on Commons. There also was the case of Danny Wool (employee #2 of the Wikimedia Foundation) blowing the whistle on inappropriate financial transactions at the Foundation. Within days, Sue Gardner was conducting a video interview on CNET to discredit Wool as a "disgruntled former employee". It's hard to imagine that Jimmy Wales has blocked these events from his memory, or perhaps he doesn't consider the revelations of these two individuals as legitimate "whistle blowing". Whatever the case, it's highly likely that some excuse will be found, so that Jimbo's claim above will be held in front of us as "completely reasonable" or "highly accurate", and that we should just get back to editing his encyclopedia and donating in December, just like we always do. - 50.195.59.125 (talk) 13:39, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

ScienceApologist disaster

ScienceApologist has recently asked to be unblocked. He has proven himself to be a highly problematic editor in so many ways. He is chronically unable to recognize that he behaved inappropriately in the past and always comes up with ridiculous excuses to justify himself. He appears to believe that he is entitled to sock if blocked, and is proven to have socked as recently as two months ago. Somehow we are supposed to believe that he will suddenly start to respect Misplaced Pages policies if unblocked, even though he has blatantly failed to observe said policies for years and has always considered himself to be above the rules.

Users such as IRWolfie, Bishonen, MONGO, MastCell, LeadSongDog, Mathsci and others have all shown up on the relevant AN thread and they all (predictably enough) have exactly the same opinion on this matter... which wouldn't be so problematic except for the fact that in addition to his old clique of wiki-friends, ScienceApologist became a Wikipediocracy member some time ago, made a lot of new friends there, and they are all coming here to support the unblock. I don't know whether they're doing this to support their new friend, as part of a long-term strategy to help Thekohser, or just to troll Misplaced Pages (many of them have openly admitted to do this in the past).

Jimbo, do you find it acceptable that an editor can open disrespect all rules and get rewarded for this just because he is able to mount a coalition of his clique of wiki-friends here and a bunch of WO trolls? If not what do you intend to do about it?

173.178.185.39 (talk) 23:47, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't know what Jimbo would do about it, but if I saw what you just wrote here, I would feel bad for this "ScienceApologist" person that he had people that cared so much about trying to keep him off Misplaced Pages.

I might feel so bad that I would find whatever discussion it is that you're trying so hard not to refer to, and go and !vote unblock there.

What were you expecting by posting such nonsense here? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:01, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Funny...that was exactly what I was thinking...and I know where the discussion is.--Mark _{Just ask! WER TEA DR/N} 01:59, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Helpful link: Misplaced Pages:Administrators noticeboard#Discussion about unblocking Science Apologist. Cheers. Begoon  02:04, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I was just being humorous. I really didn't add any input. While I think the standard offer should apply, I also know very little about this situation.--Mark _{Just ask! WER TEA DR/N} 02:38, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah - I knew you were kidding - but a link in a discussion is never a bad thing, is it? Begoon  02:53, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

• old clique? I think you will find that we never interacted before. It was reading the archives of edits and arbcom dealings in the fringe area that I became aware of SA. IRWolfie- (talk) 08:54, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

• Blame Karl Popper. Count Iblis (talk) 00:13, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Why is it that every comment you make sounds like you are stoned? IRWolfie- (talk) 00:47, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Because you tend to take things too seriously. People like you really need to smoke pot to relax, while I can simply be myself :) .Count Iblis (talk) 14:18, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Are any of these reliable sources for DOB

I give up. I really don't understand why this isn't being taken care of by the subject in a manner that is acceptable to Misplaced Pages so, I will just ask you Jimbo, as you were very helpful with the DOB situation at the Paloma Faith article.

Is this a reliable source for DOB: File:Rick Remender showing his birthdate.jpg

Is this a reliable source for DOB:

Uncategorized blog from "Rick"

I have no additional comment on either of these. I have made it more than clear on the subjects talk page how to source their date of birth if they are communicating with an editor they trust via e-mail. For some reason "Rick" can't seem to get the official website biography changed and that seems odd to me. It could be that they are just resisting any of the advice given or it could be they really don't care that much but it seems to me if this is the limited amount of sourcing we have we shouldn't include a DOB. What do you think Jimbo?--Mark _{Just ask! WER TEA DR/N} 00:16, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

wouldn't that fall under WP:SPS? -- Aunva6 01:04, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I would only assume not from the wording:

Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. Take care when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so. Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer.

From reading that it seems that the information and how it was 'Published" do not qualify as self published.--Mark _{Just ask! WER TEA DR/N} 01:34, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

But it would seem to me that if the DOB was simply placed into the biography section of the official website it would.--Mark _{Just ask! WER TEA DR/N} 01:36, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I think Aunva6 meant the closely named WP:SELFPUB. Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:47, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Possibly. That might be acceptable but for one problem.....it appears to me that the subject of the article taking a picture of himself holding a notepad with their date of birth for sourcing is very much unduly self-serving as is a blog post directed to Misplaced Pages stating a partial DOB and not placed into the official biography.--Mark _{Just ask! WER TEA DR/N} 02:54, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

What? What is "self-serving" about his DoB? Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:54, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Of course it's not reliable as in WP:RS—it might be a doctored image, or a joke, or a lie, or an attempt to show how silly Misplaced Pages is. However, if someone says they born on a certain date, and if there is no reason to believe otherwise, and if it is not of some critical importance (like if a particular DoB involved some legal matter regarding age), what is the problem with accepting it? Do you doubt the date? Is there a reason to believe it is implausible? Johnuniq (talk) 04:21, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

You're basically right about this, but there's actually noting in WP:RS that requires sources to be immune from doctoring etc in the first place. What we have here is just an example of a self-published source, completely usable within our policies. There's always a theoretical possibility that self-published sources contain false information. Formerip (talk) 14:22, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I disagree with virtually everything that Mark Miller has said on this topic, both here and on the discussion page of the article. I would say that out of the more absurd antisocial bizarre behaviors that we can engage in at Misplaced Pages, doubting people about their date of birth when there is zero evidence of any kind that they are lying, is near the top of the list. I've seen it multiple times now, and it really needs to stop. There are cases where a person's date of birth is legitimately in dispute, but they are extremely rare.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:57, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Jimbo, for you response. It appears I have stuck too close to the letter of the policy here. I don't doubt the DOB Jimbo and absolutely do not feel I have ever said anyone is lying. I certainly hope you do not feel I have stated that in any way as I have strived to remove such claims against BLP subjects even at your own direction. I am trying to figure out how to source it and if either two of these attempts are usable. While it appears you did not address my question I am pretty sure the spirit of what you stated makes it clear we can just trust the subject themselves on this issue. My apologies for making this more than it need be.--Mark _{Just ask! WER TEA DR/N} 18:08, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Just curious, how would you classify the "dispute" over your own DOB on your article? I don't remember all the gory details and drahma, but I do remember that it was a serious serious time sink and pretty ridiculous. Cheers, --Malerooster (talk) 15:22, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not so sure that was a fair comparison, but I know very little about the dispute. Jimbo was talking specifically about me and I see no reason to turn this around on him.--Mark _{Just ask! WER TEA DR/N} 18:50, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

• Mark, you might think that based on reading that passage, but you are not reading the correct policy. BLP is the correct one. Let me quote Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons#Avoid_self-published_sources: "Never use self-published sources – including but not limited to books, zines, websites, blogs, and tweets – as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject". Emphasis mine. Living people can self publish certain details about themselves which should generally be accepted unless there are reasons for doubt, IRWolfie- (talk) 09:00, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
  • We'll just assume "written or published" means in any form.--Mark _{Just ask! WER TEA DR/N} 18:10, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

He wrote the words. If someone took a photo of a book, its still a written source. He also published the image. So I've got you coming and going :) IRWolfie- (talk) 00:49, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Exactly, because if we are assuming written and published to mean exactly that and nothing more it should be applicable to just what you mention.--Mark _{Just ask! WER TEA DR/N} 00:55, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

That's not the assumption. He wrote and he published it -- in a format that assures it is public and that he wrote it -- a freely licensed publication (that is an image). Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:51, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments at Wikimania

I appreciate the "State of the Wiki" comments, seeing as how I had asked for such a statement when you first returned from vacation. (It may be that you do this annually, however.) The CNN article makes note of your concerns "in the era of Snowden and Assange" and your fears of governmental hanky-panky are well-founded, in my view. I also consider your views of Misplaced Pages journalism versus "tabloid" news designed to distract, not inform, to be of high value. Snowden's girlfriend, as opposed to real accountability at the NSA, was a good example. We do need to be a bit more radical! As an WP:ITN volunteer for years, however, I can assure you that any such efforts will be contentious in the extreme. And yes, the need to involve more women as content writers is indeed an important ongoing project. Thanks again for an excellent speech, and if there is a link up yet to the actual speech itself, I'd love to see it. Jusdafax 10:41, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Ref.: http://new.livestream.com/socreclive/wikimania/videos/26773569 Does anyone know how to link directly to the "State of the Wiki" address without activating the livestream when it is on? 70.59.30.138 (talk) 02:48, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing this. I, Jethrobot (note: not a bot!) 03:45, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Request to remove Russavia's bureaucrat status on Commons

Jimbo, following a discussion on COM:AN/U, a request has been opened to remove Russavia's status as a bureaucrat on Commons. I thought you would like to know as this is in part related to that portrait of you, although I don't expect you will participate there. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 14:38, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

This could have all been solved if he would have painted my picture instead. I would have laughed my ass off and posted it on facebook but this is the cost of being a celebrity. People sometimes do things we don't like. Would Jimbo have been offended if Weird Al wrote a sing about him and Misplaced Pages? I doubt it. This pricasso guy is an odd ball I'll grant you but I really think we are making more of this than what needs to be. Kumioko (talk) 15:41, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

I think that oversimplifies the larger behavioural issues which lead up to this point. The Pricasso portrait simply brought it to wider attention. Even then, Russavia probably could have avoided having a formal request for removal of some of his rights, but he chose to prevaricate and delay whenever he was asked to participate in discussions about this particular episode. The Commons community could have forgiven the Pricasso image, but his responses to it show a lack of respect that will be hard for them to forgive. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:57, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

This is a farce that has gone on long enough, honestly. Russavia still doesn't have the sligtest understanding as to what he did wrong, e.g. posts here like "This ridiculous indefinite block means that I am not able to deal with copyright violations and other problematic files on this project." Then when Spartaz steps in to shut down this joker's talk page access, that access is restored by PeterForsyth, a buddy of Russavia's from Commons. Tarc (talk) 15:53, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually, Weird Al's White & Nerdy does mention editing Misplaced Pages. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:57, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

A farce, yes - and gone on long enough, certainly - but I disagree that he has no understanding as to what he did wrong. I think he knows only too well, and believes he is safe, surrounded by people who will support and condone this kind of behaviour at Commons. I voted there, for what it's worth, but I think that mess will take more action than a few community votes to sort out. Begoon  16:00, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, well we have a choice of which community of people who "support and condone" one another's behavior we want to support. Either we support Commons admins who tirelessly deal with an endless torrent of donated content, turning it into a massive and invaluable free archive for all the Internet to enjoy -- or we support the goons from Wikipediocracy lining up to knock off an admin who they see as thwarting their agenda to censor images, humiliate volunteers, lambast Misplaced Pages in any news medium that will listen to them, and get our project banned in the halls of Parliament. Wnt (talk) 16:21, 11 August 2013 (UTC)