Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:57, 23 August 2013

The contents of the Roundup (herbicide) page were merged into Glyphosate on 26 August, 2012. For the contribution history and old versions of the merged article please see its history.

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This article is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine, which recommends that medicine-related articles follow the Manual of Style for medicine-related articles and that biomedical information in any article use high-quality medical sources. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine.MedicineWikipedia:WikiProject MedicineTemplate:WikiProject Medicinemedicine C This article has been rated as C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Toxicology task force (assessed as High-importance).

Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2

This page has archives. Sections older than 100 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

Coca

"The growing popularity of Boliviana Negra amongst growers could have serious repercussions for the U.S. war on drugs but nobody really wants to talk about because it could put an end to U.S. aid money in Colombia and the coca farmers who grow the new strain would stop receiving free weed control on behalf of the U.S. government and taxpayers."

This sentence should be rewritten in a more formal and more neutral manner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.165.29.44 (talk) 16:26, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up! Interesting article, BTW. Gandydancer (talk) 17:31, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Scotts Miracle-Gro

This product is actually produced for consumers not by Monsanto, but by Scotts Miracle-Gro. Shouldn't that be mentioned somewhere? --CastAStone/ 14:28, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

merge

This article was nominated for merging with Glyphosate on 26 July 2012. The result of the discussion was to proceed with the merge.

User:Jytdog 19:14, August 26, 2012

I see no link to the discussion. Binksternet (talk) 14:44, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

The three merges I found were very curious. En:wp and two other languages were tagged to merge 26, 27, 29 July, 2012. The other two never did merge. On August 1, 2012, a few days later, the jury ended the court case in favor of Monsanto. I doubt the jury verdict was announced ahead of time but three language wikis all tagged to merge beforehand seems odd. I haven't checked the other languages yet to see if they were merged early as well. Estonian and Czech We could probably unmerge this one and have an actual discussion on it this time.--Canoe1967 (talk) 15:21, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it will be productive to try and identify a conspiracy with regard to the Monsanto court case. Let's just concentrate on whether Misplaced Pages will benefit from having two articles, one on Roundup and one on glyphosate. Binksternet (talk) 02:00, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Unless glyphosate and Roundup are identical in makeup, etc., there is no question Misplaced Pages should deal with them separately. (They are most assuredly not identical.) petrarchan47tc 02:21, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

It's in the Glyphosate archives, IRWolfie- (talk) 01:07, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Ah, okay. I see the following discussions:

• February–April 2007 – Talk:Glyphosate/Archive_1#Roundup_Article. Casual suggestion to redirect Roundup to glyphosate. No action taken.
• June 2008 – Talk:Glyphosate/Archive_1#Merge. Official discussion of merge, with seven editors arguing for a merge and five editors arguing against. (Rifleman 82 first said 'merge' but then discussed the benefits of separate articles.) No action taken. Here's what the Roundup article looked like at the end of June 2008.
• July–August 2012 – Talk:Glyphosate/Archive_2#Proposal_to_merge_this_article_with_Roundup_article. Jytdog proposes a merge, and three other editors point to previous successful discussions in favor of a merge. Here's what the Roundup article looked like in July 2012.
• August 26, 2012 – Jytdog performs the merge, redirecting Roundup to glyphosate.
• June 2013 – Talk:Glyphosate#Glyphosate_v._Roundup. All four editors who commented agreed upon an un-merge, including Jytdog (!).
• June 2013 – Talk:Glyphosate#Please disable Roundup redirect. Two editors argue for a separate article but Jytdog argued that it was okay with both combined.

So it looks to me as if there was never a strong consensus for merging, just the slim majority in June 2008, with good arguments brought forward by both sides. The June 2008 discussion was critically flawed by the OP stating that Roundup only had one "active ingredient" and it was glyphosate. However, Roundup differs substantially from glyphosate in the supposedly inactive "inert" ingredient polyoxyethylene alkylamine (POEA) which can too easily be contaminated with dioxane to make for very toxic side effects, according to Scientific American. Mother Earth News talks about the concern over further "inert" ingredients of Roundup including the surfactants and solvents. Thus the June 2008 merge discussion was carried out under a false assumption. I think the two articles should be un-merged. Binksternet (talk) 02:58, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Additional note, Binkster. Neither of those two sources mentions "dioxane" with respect to POEA. I would guess you are thinking of a different herbicide, 2,4-D (which is an active ingredient, not a surfactant or other additive) Jytdog (talk) 11:45, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

No, I was not wrong in discussing dioxane, which I'm sure you know is found in POEA. The US State Department assembled a glyphosate health study which identifies dioxane in typical glyphosate recipes: "Evaluation of the Effects of Glyphosate on Human Health in Illicit Crop Eradication Program Influence Zones", July 2003. Binksternet (talk) 14:13, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I have never been able to find a reliable source for that claim about POEA being contaminate with dioxane. The link you provide there is not an RS - the claim about dioxane is not even sourced. Can you find one? I cannot.Jytdog (talk) 19:39, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Disagree strongly. There is only one active ingredident in Roundup - glyphosate. Glyphosate is NEVER used alone - it is always in a formulation. One of the key elements in every formulation is a surfactant - glyphosate is highly water soluble and cannot penetrate waxy leaves - a surfactant holds the glyphosate on the leaf surface and helps it penetrate. Binkster is correct that the surfactant in some Roundup formulations is POEA Polyethoxylated tallow amine. One of the key things I brought up in the discussion that led to the merge decision, is that the content of the glyphosate and Roundup articles had become almost completely overlapping. Pointless to have two overlapping articles. More importantly, while the anti-GMO crowd remains obsessed with Monsanto's Roundup (which formulation of Roundup they never say because most times folks seem unaware there are about 10 formulations of Roundup, all with different qualities), w in the real world, the patent expired on glyphosate 13 years ago. 13 years ago. Now, in 2013, China makes and sells more glyphosate than anybody, and the focus on Roundup has more to do with politics than with realities of glyphosate and how it used in the real world. I have not had time to work on this article for a long time, but you can see that I left tags where we need to do a lot of work to provide the full glyphosate picture. An unmerge makes no sense, outside of politics. Jytdog (talk) 05:22, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Now you are talking about three things: Roundup, Roundup clones or generic competitors, and glyphosate by itself, without solvents, surfactants or carriers. The glyphosate article should not have to heft the load of Roundup controversy, including Roundup patent challenges, Roundup legal troubles and Roundup-related GMO crops. The glyphosate article should be a fairly simple affair which concentrates on the chemical and its characteristics, history and usage. The Roundup article should cover the historically important contribution of Roundup (notability does not diminish over time) and of course all the controversy related to Monsanto's Roundup product. A small subsection can cover the generic or clone products. Binksternet (talk) 05:40, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for talking! I would not characterize what I said that way. I said that there is one active ingredient, and many formulations of it -- including many formulations under the Roundup brand. "Roundup" is one brand, but it is not one thing - there are many formulations under that brand, each of which act differently. I'm also not sure what you mean about some specific "Roundup patent challenges" and "roundup-related GMO crops". The GM crops are glyphosate-resistant and Monsanto does not and cannot obligate farmers who buy that seed to also buy Roundup (that kind of forced sale of a related good is called "patent misuse" in patent law - that is a technical term in patent law - and if you try to do it and get caught, your patent can be invalidated in civil court). During the time before the glyphosate patent expired, Roundup was the only game in town, but for 13 years now farmers have had a wide range of glyphosate formulations to buy, to use with the glyphosate-resistant seed they buy. Also the patent was on glyphosate, not Roundup per se, so there are no "Roundup patent challenges" per se. Finally on this, you did not respond to one of the key arguments, was that Misplaced Pages tried to keep them separate for a long time - earlier merge discussions left them separate - and one of the key reasons to combine them is that they kept creeping back together, which is pretty inevitable if you have one article on an active ingredient and another on a set of formulations. Jytdog (talk) 11:45, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Wanted to correct something I wrote above! So, back when Roundup was the only glyphosate formulation approved by the EPA, Monsanto did have "typing" language in its contracts with farmers - farmers had to buy Roundup. During that time Monsanto caught a farmer saving seeds and sued him for infringement, and the farmer counter-sued, saying that the tying practice violated anti-trust and Monsanto's patent on the glyphosate resistant seed should be found invalid. The farmer lost, and appealed to the CAFC - and lost again. The reason the court gave, was that there was no anti-competitive effect of the tying language, because there was no product that competed with Roundup. The article describing this (here notes that when glyphosate went off patent, Monsanto dropped this language from its contracts with farmers - -they knew that once there was competition, they would put their glyphosate-resistant seed patents in jeapordy if they kept doing this. So we were each wrong, and each right, Binkster.Jytdog (talk) 21:24, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Your assertion that Roundup comes in various formulations is an argument for its own article, one separate from glyphosate. Binksternet (talk) 14:15, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't follow... there are probably ~100 formulations of glyphosate, many grouped under brand names... what is special about the ~10 Roundup ones? Jytdog (talk) 19:39, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Some additional points, already made above in different threads. We have wikipedia articles on acetaminophen (here, actually the british generic name, Paracetamol), not Tylenol or Excedrin - and likewise for other drugs; the articles are on the active ingredient, not the branded formulations which have other stuff in them along with the active ingredient. On the herbicide side, we have an article on Glufosinate (not the formulations like Basta, Rely, Finale, Ignite, Challenge, and Liberty); on 2,4-D not "Weed B Gon MAX", "PAR III", "Trillion", "Tri-Kil", "Killex" and "Weedaway Premium 3-Way XP Turf Herbicide. And so on with other chemicals. I cannot think of a case like what you propose here, where we have separate articles on one subset of formulations and another on the active ingredient. Do you have examples? Jytdog (talk) 11:45, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

• Jell-O for gelatin, Kool-Aid for sugar water, Raid (insecticide) for allethrin, Cottonelle for paper, and Ivory (soap) for soap etc. Popular products usually get their own articles so they don't spam the main ingredient ones. --Canoe1967 (talk) 12:23, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

gelatin is not an active ingredient, nor is sugar water, nor paper, nor is soap. The Raid (insecticide) example is interesting for existing in parallel to the active ingredient article on Allethrins, but the Raid article sucks (as evidenced by its multiple tags), and has sucked for a long time. Not a great example. Almost all relevant articles are focused on the active ingredient.Jytdog (talk) 19:39, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Why do we have five articles on Salt water then. They all taste the same to me.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:44, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

RfC: Un-merge from Glyphosate?

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists: Economy, trade, and companies Maths, science, and technology When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Should the article Roundup (herbicide) be un-merged from the article about glyphosate, the active ingredient in Roundup? Binksternet (talk) 23:09, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Previous merge discussions

• March–April 2007 – Talk:Roundup_(herbicide)/Archive_1#Proposed_Merge_with_Glyphosate. No action taken.
• June–July 2008 – Talk:Glyphosate/Archive_1#Merge. No action taken.
• April 15, 2009 – Talk:Roundup_(herbicide)/Archive_1#Merge_to_glyphosate and Talk:Glyphosate/Archive_2#Merge_completed. ImperfectlyInformed proposes a merge then two hours later reports that the articles have been merged. User:Nutriveg soon reverts the merge.
• July–August 2012 – Talk:Glyphosate/Archive_2#Proposal_to_merge_this_article_with_Roundup_article. Articles merged by User:Jytdog.

Related articles: Monsanto, Polyethoxylated tallow amine, John E. Franz, Genetically modified crops, CP4, Aminomethylphosphonic acid, Glufosinate, Asgrow, Genetically modified food controversies, Genetically modified maize, Genetically modified rice, Genetically modified soybean, The Scotts Miracle-Gro Company, Monsanto Canada Inc. v. Schmeiser, Séralini affair, Monsanto Co. v. Geertson Seed Farms, Bowman v. Monsanto Co., and Monsanto Technology LLC v Cefetra BV and Others.

Survey

• Support. I think Monsanto's Roundup, being a very prominent herbicide product which has made Monsanto billions of dollars, should have its own article. Historically, Misplaced Pages hosted the article for nearly ten years from late September 2002 to late August 2012. This is what the article looked like in July 2012 before it was merged by Jytdog. Throughout the various merge discussions I saw good arguments for keeping the articles separate, while those in favor of merging were concerned over the amount of duplication between the Roundup and glyphosate articles. I think the Roundup article should concentrate on the brand, product and patent, and the interlinked product families, while the glyphosate article should focus on the chemistry. Binksternet (talk) 23:09, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose

1) The merge was agreed to several months ago because:

a) despite previously stated good intentions like those Binksternet states now, the two articles came to be nearly identical as different editors worked separately on them, and it was clear several months ago that efforts to keep them distinct were pointless in the wiki-world;

b) glyphosate went off patent 13 years ago and ever since then Roundup has been only one brand among many, and China has come to dominate the worldwide market (the relevant patents were on glyphosate, not Roundup per se);

c) it is the norm in Misplaced Pages for articles about chemical products to focus on the active ingredient, not the branded formulation e.g. Paracetamol, not Tylenol or Excedrin and likewise for other drugs; herbicides Glufosinate (not the formulations like Basta, Rely, Finale, Ignite, Challenge, and Liberty) and 2,4-D not "Weed B Gon MAX", "PAR III", "Trillion", "Tri-Kil", "Killex" and "Weedaway Premium 3-Way XP Turf Herbicide. And so on with other chemicals.

2) Additionally, let me state that:

a) a reader interested in this herbicide should be able to find information about all formulations in one place, including all additives and surfactants used in those formulations;

b) The glyphosate article is not so long that it needs a fork for the Roundup branded products; and

c) pretty much the only reason I can see to having a separate Roundup article is to serve as a WP:POVFORK which we don't do in Misplaced Pages.

I think split-supporters need to explain how a Roundup article is not a POV fork. Jytdog (talk) 00:01, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Negatives are hard to prove. No one has demonstrated that the Roundup article is a POV fork. Even if it were, a separate article could easily be edited so that it would not be a POV fork. Boghog (talk) 18:20, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

In theory yes, but please see this dif above, by the originator of this RfC. Basically all the controversy goes into the Roundup article, which I think pretty well fits the definition of a POV fork. Jytdog (talk) 18:25, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Huh??? How does that fit the definition of a POV fork? I am not seeing it. And again, even assuming if it were a POV fork, it can be certainly be edited to remove any POV. The Roundup story, just like Tylenol and Excedrin is noteworthy from a purely business perspective. Furthermore Roundup was fascinating from the standpoint of how the Monsanto was able to establish extend a proprietary position, not based on composition of matter use, but rather an efficient synthesis. The scope of Misplaced Pages is not just science. It also includes business. The glyphosate article should focus on the science while the Roundup article should focus on the substantial historical/commercial aspects specific to Roundup. Boghog (talk) 18:52, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

If it is left in the article on the chemical then that may be considered POV as well. If we have a section on this brand there then we should have a section for all brands. As it is now it can be construed as spam material for Monsanto.--Canoe1967 (talk) 19:06, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Two responses (both kind of agreeing with you, Canoe, but not completely): a) wikipedia articles get built up over time; I think it would be great to have sections on the major formulations and a table showing market shares among them. This can all be built over time. b) there is no doubt that some readers want to find information on Roundup in particular - they should be able to find it, and find it with information on the other formulations, so the reader can see the real world and not a sliver of it. Jytdog (talk) 19:26, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages should be expanding and creating articles not collapsing and deleting. I think these two seem to clash far too often. I can see articles deleted on the grounds of notability but this is not the case here. By moving the material to the chemical article is just turns it into a huge spam section. In order to balance a perceived corporate POV we should create sections for all brands there. That would cause a huge raft of non-notable material. This is far more POV of a merge than any claims of a POV fork.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:02, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

How is this spam? Again, I am not seeing this. Misplaced Pages is full of article about specific products (e.g., Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Big Mac, Whopper, Microsoft Windows, iPad, Google Search, Pentium, etc.). As long as these products are notable as documented by independent sources, these articles are not spam. Boghog (talk) 21:25, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand. If we merged Big Mac into hamburger without including an equal section on Whopper and all the smaller burgers then that would be spamming the hamburger article with one of the main products. If we trimmed the material way down it may wash but then we lose material our readers should see.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The scope of Misplaced Pages also includes history. As the innovator product, from a historical perspective, a Roundup section in this article or as a separate article is clearly justified. Boghog (talk) 19:36, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per the sensible proposal of Zad68 (talk · contribs), Talk:Glyphosate#Glyphosate_v._Roundup. The Glyphosate article should be developed first, and then content split off when a significant amount of Roundup specific content builds up. The old article is of poor quality, including a hodge podge of primary sources making medical claims, particularly of note are those by Seralini of Seralini affair fame. It's an editorial decision to have an article, being notable doesn't mean it is required to exist, and the content is better covered at Glyphosate. I don't see why we would separate the chemistry from the brand Roundup. It provides more context than each separated from the other. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:54, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

These issues can be solved as suggested below. Unmerge the article, repair it, and then decide whether to merge the remaining material. I still feel that so much will remain that our readers will think the chemical article will look like Monsanto spam.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose The summary above notes that I merged these a while back, but it suggests that I went ahead without much notice or discussion which isn't quite true. I believe that a merge proposal tag was up for a long time and a discussion occurred on a separate page. These topics are closely related and easier to monitor when combined. II | (t - c) 23:58, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

The discussion didn't have much input. After it was closed then one editor did the merge according to his POV of what should be merged. There was no discussion on what should be kept and what shouldn't be. This resulted in material lost that our readers can no longer see.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support Copied:"Products should not feature so prominently in an chemical article, at best they are to be discussed in a general fashion. It would be like discussing low-carbon steel, hex-nuts in the iron article. Moreover, there is an abundance of information on Roundup to warrant a separate article. Plasmic Physics (talk) 23:59, 20 August 2013 (UTC)"

• Support per my own comments above, common sense, and Plasmic Physics. It might be said that the 'abundance of information on Roundup' becomes somewhat hidden from the reader because of this merge, which should not have happened according to the guidelines. Also agree with Binksternet: "the glyphosate article should focus on the chemistry". I think this is what the reader would expect. petrarchan47tc 02:03, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support. The chemistry and product articles should be separate. Having them together dilutes the potential quality of both articles and impacts on clarity. I also believe Roundup meets the Wiki Notability guidelines. LT90001 (talk) 06:54, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

And what would it contain? Would it just be Glyphosate#Monsanto? What about the issue where some scientific papers discuss Glyphosate, and some discuss Roundup? IRWolfie- (talk) 10:59, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Those papers can either be included in either article or both depending on the paper.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:34, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose We generally name products by their generic names rather than brand names. Thus we should keep the merge. We do not for example have articles on Plavix and clopidogrel we simply redirect the former to the latter. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 12:57, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

The problem with that is the material on this one product is far larger than many other sections in the chemical article. Our readers would just see that as spamming Monsanto. Much good material was removed in the merge. If it were added back it would just amplify it.--Canoe1967 (talk) 13:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose split Binksternet is correct that it would be nice to have a separate article for Roundup as it is a product which meets Misplaced Pages notability criteria, but I will oppose any split for so long as there is not sufficient unique content with which to make a unique article for this specific brand. The article on Roundup, if it exists, should contain information about the brand and marketing and not about the chemical. Information about the chemical should go in the chemical name article. Right now, there is not enough information about the brand to justify breaking the Misplaced Pages precedent of not having distinct articles for brands when all the available information is about the generic name for the product. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:08, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

• A separate article for Roundup could go into much greater detail about the brand activity. Plenty of books, papers, reports and articles discuss the brand:

• Strategic Brand Management, pages 171–173. Roundup as a case study for brand management.
• Resistance Is Fertile: Canadian Struggles on the Biocommons, pages 39–53, by Dr. Wilhelm Peekhaus. Section on "corporate biotechnological control of seeds and agriculture".
• Kent and Riegel's Handbook of Industrial Chemistry and Biotechnology, page 1553. Section on "Biotechnology in Agriculture and Processing".
• Wildlife Ecotoxicology: Forensic Approaches, pages 266–300, chapter 9 by Dr. Rick A. Relyea.

There are many more sources we can draw from to discuss the Roundup brand—quite a lot has been written about it. The current section of Glyphosate#Monsanto barely scratches the surface. That section is what I consider to be a summary style section which should be headed by a link to the main article about Roundup. Binksternet (talk) 20:41, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

The Wildlife Ecotoxicology one is especially interesting. One big focus of that, is on POEA which is known to have bad effects on fish and ambphibians. Do you know what other brands of glyphosate use that surfactant? I don't know and I am still trying to find out. It bothers me not to know. Jytdog (talk) 21:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

That should be brought up at the other article not in a merge discussion of this redirect.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. I have a suggestion: instead of a Roundup article, why not split to Phosphonic herbicides? Plasmic Physics (talk) 14:18, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support: per LT910001; Tylenol and Paracetamol are separate articles, I see this situation as analogous. Just because the old Roundup article was not the best doesn't mean we tear down the house while it is being built. The company's product has sufficient independent notability to warrant a split, and the unique product has its own history. Montanabw 20:14, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Just because we can have an article does not mean we must. We can arrive at an editorial decision to merge articles. There has not been any specific proposed text for an unmerge. The cart is being put before the horse here, IRWolfie- (talk) 09:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

It isn't a matter of 'can' or 'must' but a matter of 'should'. If the article was merged correctly and it filled the chemical article with too much material on one product then our readers may see that as spam. In that case we 'should' split it off. There is plenty of "specific proposed text for an unmerge" for this here.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support I support separate articles for several of the reasons already offered above. This statement also has a bearing on my decision: Monsanto has responded, saying that (a) Roundup formulations do contain surfactants (detergents) to help the active ingredient penetrate the waxy cuticle of the plant. (b) The surfactants are indeed more toxic than the glyphosate. Gandydancer (talk) 21:39, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Round-up is just a brand name stuck on glyphosate. Except the turnover and profits made by Monsanto, there is not much left that is unique for Round-up and not related to glyphosate. The Banner talk 12:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

There is much material left. If you look at the last historical version you can see it. If we can have that version restored then we can work on it. If it is trimmed to the point where it won't look like spam in the chemical article then it could be merged. Many readers will still think there may too much material on one product though. If you look at Broad Arrow (pigeon), All Alone (pigeon), War pigeon, and the other Dickin Medal recipients you will find that they all have their own articles. Most of these articles will never expand but they are still worthy of stand alone articles. RoundUp is far more notable than most of them so it should have its own article.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:49, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Having a separate article on a specific brand of glyphosate could be seen as both unduly promotional and as an attack on the product, neither of which is WP's purpose. It would clearly be an unnecessary and contentious article. Martin Hogbin (talk) 14:48, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Any attack material should be removed or made NPOV. To keep it listed in the chemical article is spam of one brand over the other brands. Since it may be the historical main brand then it does warrant its own article to avoid these issues.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

"spam of one brand over the other brands", as Doc James has shown this is fairly standard practice for articles of this type, IRWolfie- (talk) 09:53, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Just because other articles are corrupted by spam does not mean more need to be.--Canoe1967 (talk) 13:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Motions before Discussion

I've split this off to keep the RfC being bogged down with irrelevant side tracks, IRWolfie- (talk) 11:00, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

You are the one that brought up both issues. I don't suppose you would like to list the primary sources below. If you feel these issues are irrelevant then why did you use them as an argument?--Canoe1967 (talk) 20:24, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Me saying an article is a hodge podge mess does not mean I think you need to go start an RfC question on listing the sources. It does not follow, IRWolfie- (talk) 09:54, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

That isn't an RfC. You brought up that it had too many primary sources. Should we list all the sources and remove the ones you think should not be included as being primary? Thee are 138 sources now. You could just list the numbers of the ones you think are primary. If we have consensus that those shouldn't be included then we can remove the material related to them. That would develop the article as well, which is your second objection to an unmerge.--Canoe1967 (talk) 13:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

"Thee are 138 sources now". There are no sources because the article is a redirect. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

See the last version in history. Click the history button at the top of the page and then select the last version before the merge to view the article in its final state before the merge.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Unmerge so we can work on it

• Support.--Canoe1967 (talk) 00:17, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

• If you want to work on the Roundup article, choose one or more historic versions and copy them into your user space. We are not going to un-merge the article before this un-merge RfC is concluded. Binksternet (talk) 20:41, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

What is the problem with unmerging it first? Many arguments for keeping it merged are problems with the article. If we unmerge it we can address those problems and keep it as one history database and not a second one from user space.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:11, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Because considering the previous discussions, you need consensus before unmerging. You can address the issues in your userspace. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Any user space creation would split the histories. This was fine as an article for years and the merge discussion was far too minimal. It should be unmerged to correct your issues with primary sources and article repair needed. The aim of the project is to expand and split, not collapse and delete.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support -- Montanabw 20:14, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
• OpposeThere is clearly no consensus for this. Martin Hogbin (talk) 14:46, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Are you claiming no consensus based on the two votes above that support it?--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:32, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support petrarchan47tc 03:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• 'Oppose - this is the opposite of how articles grow! There is plenty of work to be done on this article - if and when any section becomes too big, we can discuss a split at that time. I have seen no one make an argument that the article is too long now and that it makes sense, content-wise, to cut it down by splitting off Roundup (or anything else). Jytdog (talk) 11:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

It isn't the fact that it is too long. It is the fact that much material was removed during the merge. If all that material were added then it would look like a Monsanto spam article. We merge when all material fits, not to shrink and remove material.--Canoe1967 (talk) 12:50, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Canoe, I did the merge and I worked hard to preserve everything that was not OR, was NPOV, and was well sourced, (and for some content, I kept it but found better sources), and I and others have added lots of material too. If there is material that I left out that you feel should be put back in, please bring it, with sources! Really, there is plenty of room to improve the article. There is no need to be inflammatory or make accusations about intent, so please stop using ABF language, like calling it "spam" with respect to naming Monsanto or Roundup in the context of discussing Roundup formulations. It is just common sense, and a matter of fact, to call Roundup formulations, "Roundup." Additionally, readers expect to find discussion of brands - especially Roundup - here. Other brand names and formulations are named too, and are not fleshed out yet, but should be. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 13:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

One person doing a merge should not have happened in such a drastic way. It is too selective by one editor's POV about what should be merged and what shouldn't be. The material should have sought consensus for removal first. After that removal then all the remaining material should have been merged. If there is too much remaining it would seem like a spam article to our readers and in that case there shouldn't be a merge. That is why this article should be unmerged, discussed/repaired, and then decided to move the entire contents or leave it as an article.--Canoe1967 (talk) 13:48, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Things happen on Misplaced Pages when individual editors do them. Lots of people were watching and did stuff to do. more importantly - if there is material from the old roundup article that was left out and that you feel should be included, please bring it. Please focus on improving the article. Again canoe, please do not personalize this - what is the point you are making, in now criticizing how I did the merge months ago, "alone", with my "POV"? Again, this is what you promised to stop doing! Please stick to discussing content. Please. Content. Improving the article. Please.Jytdog (talk) 14:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The merge was done incorrectly. The article should have been trimmed according to discussion. After that trim the last accepted historical version should have been merged. If I were to take the last historical version as it is now and replace it with the material in the chemical article then it would probably be reverted. One editor cherry picking his choices of material is not the correct method. My method would not involve a POV. It would just be a copy/paste of consensus material. This is why the last historical version should be restored and discussed before any merger.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:57, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

List primary sources, or at least count them

• This suggestion does not need a vote, it just needs action. Binksternet (talk) 20:41, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Correct. I removed my vote above and requested that the editor that didn't like the primary sources to list the ones he has issues with.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:07, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Unmerge to a different article with a broader scope

In the case that there is not enough information on Roundup specifically, it would be better to collect similar products together. When enough information is accumulated thereafter, relevant articles specific to one particular product could then be split off. In this case, as well as providing a useful method of comparison, the collective article acts as a depository for prospective stub product-articles.

I suggest that the collective article should be named Phosphonic herbicide. Other names are welcome, although, at this time, the choice of a name is a different matter. This subsurvey is primarily concerned with the unmerging to a collective article as described above. Plasmic Physics (talk) 10:34, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

You are free to create List of herbicides. If some of those are large and notable enough they may need to have their own articles to avoid spamming the list. Disney has is own article to avoid spamming animation articles.--Canoe1967 (talk) 13:14, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

A mere list hardly satisfies the proposal, the article is meant to record, discuss, and contrast (in that order). Plasmic Physics (talk) 14:23, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

That is an interesting and creative proposal! But it appears that there is only one other member of that class - at least according to this. Are you aware of others? Jytdog (talk) 11:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

We don't have to settle on that name, for the sake of argument, how about EPSPS inhibiting herbicide, or some variant thereof? That is more general and would still qualify under the above proposal. Plasmic Physics (talk) 13:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

This should actually be discussed elsewhere. If someone wishes to create a new article and then merge this on into it then that should be a different merge discussion. This discussion should be about merging it back into the original article.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:09, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

As I see it, the result of this discussion directly affects the main unmerge discussion. If I were to move it elsewhere, and discuss it in parallel, then the outcome would become a moot point if the main discussion is closed first - it will just be another motion lost in bureaucracy. Plasmic Physics (talk) 14:23, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

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