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I hope you enjoy editing and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Feel free to write a note on the bottom of my talk page if you want to get in touch with me. Again, welcome! ~Adjwilley (talk) 16:26, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Request for third party comment

Hello Adjwilley, I was wondering if you can bring in a third-party view to the editing and discussion that is happening at Huqúqu'lláh and Talk:Huqúqu'lláh (and actually a lot on my own talk page, which I'm trying to get onto the talk page of the article). The discussion is on the use of primary source material, as well as the removal of views which have secondary source citations, with them being replaced with views which have no secondary source citations.

It would be helpful if there can be some other viewpoints brought into the discussion. Warm regards, -- 10:07, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

I will have a look at it. ~Adjwilley (talk) 17:00, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for commenting; can you keep the page and the discussion on your watch page for a while to see if you think my edits are heavy-handed or not. The anonymous editor is removing a well sourced sentence from secondary sources, with either his understanding of the primary source, and/or a statement that is not collaborated by the secondary sources. Warm regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 19:48, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Yep, I've watchlisted the page. ~Adjwilley (talk) 19:54, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Concern/query

Hello Adjwilley. I am concerned about this note Srich recently left on Carolmooredc's talk page:

This looks to me like Canvassing or Meatpuppetry with respect to the Arbcom request. Am I mistaken? Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 22:26, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm not Adjwilley but I can address this: Yes, you are mistaken. Canvassing is trying to recruit likeminded editors to support one's side. Meatpuppetry is having another editor edit secretly on one's behalf and at one's direction, to avoid scrutiny of one's own edits. In the linked diff, SRich was expressing concern about the length of Carolmooredc's comments at the ArbCom request, and suggesting that she hold off on providing detailed diffs until the case is opened. There is no element of recruitment by SRich; Carolmooredc was already participating at that case request when the comment was made, so it cannot be canvassing. There is no element of secrecy or proxying either: the comment by SRich was made openly on Carolmooredc's talk page and was not couched in terms of doing anything on SRich's behalf, but rather a benign bit of advice that could have been offered by anyone. alanyst 23:01, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, we've also got this: in which @Carolmooredc: solicits @Binksternet: to consider adding certain diffs to his Arbcom statement. I'd hate to think that WP dispute resolution is about team play. SPECIFICO talk 23:42, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

So did Binksternet follow the supposed solicitation? No. Binksternet (talk) 02:16, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Alanyst. @Specifico, I pretty much concur with the above. Both look pretty much like people giving and receiving advice. I've made similar talk page edits many times myself. The second could potentially be read as a request to file a report, but it was just as much a request for advice and opinion, and I commented on the thread myself yesterday with my 2 cents. Either way I think that stirring this pot is probably not the most productive path forward. Thanks for dropping by. ~Adjwilley (talk) 02:44, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

It didn't even occur to me that that would be anything like canvassing. And I did add it myself when it became relevant. Mea culpa if it was bad. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:15, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

You're fine Carol, I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's good to be careful in situations like this, as it's easy to misinterpret others' intentions during a prolonged disagreement, but I understand your question was in good faith. ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:39, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Decision regarding Murzyn

Hello, thank you for your comment regarding Murzyn and the problem there. I will try to get along with VM, but to be honest I've tried to steer clear of him over the last two years following (what I still claim was) his outing of me to another Polish editor, but he edits Murzyn, Racism in Poland, and other pages which I started so it is hard not to come into contact with him. I do feel hard done by his gaming of the system - telling me not to post on his page then emailing me (he did it twice, not once as he claimed). He was previously banned for off-wiki activity (the infamous EEML) so it would seem part of his MO, as would passing on my email address and name. Anyway, I can assure you there was no hounding of him by me. I was the one who almost left WP due to the unpleasant atmosphere. Regards, Malick78 (talk) 10:27, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the note. I am on my phone right now so I won't be able to give a complete response, but I just wanted to say that I didn't mean to imply that you had actually hounded him, only that he may have felt that way. I am sorry for your experience as well ~Adjwilley (talk) 18:18, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Malick78, I would very much appreciate it if you stopped lying. If you stopped lying about me outing you, which I never did, and if you stopped lying about stuff that happened five years ago, stuff you weren't at all involved in (or were you? Either you're lying or you were involved but under a different username. These are the only possibilities). You are of course free to believe whatever fantasy pops into your head but you are not allowed to make these kinds of fantastical accusation without proof. Do not accuse me of outing you again.

As to I can assure you there was no hounding of him by me - the fact that OTHER users had to instruct you to leave me alone belies that statement. And let's recall that you did in fact use your talk page to allow anonymous users who were harassing me in real life, to post all kinds of nonsense about me. In fact you were downright gleeful about it. There's very few things as disgusting and distasteful as when an abuser tries to play the role of the victim. Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:53, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Bleh, not sure how much I want to get involved here, but Volunteer Marek, please. You complain about Malick78 making "accusation without proof" and in the same breath accuse Malick78 of "lying" four times and siccing anonymous editors on youentertaining the accusations of abusive anons...without proof. Please, both of you, try to leave the past behind you and avoid each other in the future.

@Malick78, I appreciate the thought behind this post, but you don't need to defend yourself on my account. If you're up for a little light reading, I highly recommend this Meatball essay. ~Adjwilley (talk) 03:30, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

You complain about Malick78 making "accusation without proof" and in the same breath accuse Malick78 of "lying" four times... ......without proof. Sigh. Well, yes. Please think for a second. He accused me of outing him. Without proof. I denied it. He accused me of it again. Without proof. What exactly am *I* supposed to "prove" here? That I didn't out him? Am I supposed to prove that I didn't kill John F. Kennedy too? If I say somewhere "Adjwilley beats his wife!", and you say "no, that's not true", then I say it again somewhere, "Adjwilley beats his wife!", then you say "you're lying!", would you really expect others to *require* you to prove that you're not in fact beating your wife? Like I said, think for a second first. It is up to a person making allegations and attacking others to back up their claims, not to the person being attacked!

Nevermind that what he is calling "outing" wouldn't even be "outing", even if it did somehow happen, which it didn't. How about I "accidentally" email you under my real name, then for the next couple years I'll go around telling everyone that Adjwilley "outed" me.

If you want proof of him enabling (not "siccing") the anon IPs you can look through the history of his talk page yourself.

Unfortunately, that "meatball" essay works only in functional communities. Not dysfunctional ones, such as ones, for example, where baseless accusations are cheap, and it's those who are being baselessly accused that are required to "prove" their innocence. Sheesh.

Goodnight. Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:42, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

VM, I believe the Meatball essay applies to you too, though your point about the "ideal" community is well taken. I think though that in practice it is possible to follow the essay most of the time. (I try to do it myself, and other than the occasional clarifying when someone has misunderstood my intention, pointing out a lack of evidence, or correcting a particularly bad accusation, I think I do a pretty good job. And I do occasionally beat my wife at Chess, Settlers of Catan, and Bananagrams, by the way.) Anyway, and this is just my opinion, you shouldn't have to defend yourself against the "outing" accusations, other than to say that you didn't do what he thinks you did when the occasion demands (like at AN/I). You certainly shouldn't go on the offensive by calling him a liar.

Re: It is up to a person making allegations and attacking others to back up their claims, not to the person being attacked! I agree 100%. You don't have to prove anything when he's making accusations about you, but if you start making allegations about him (enabling anons, lying, possibly socking...) then it's you who needs to start linking diffs. But I'm not asking for diffs here...especially if some of these issues are as old as 5 years. I really think both of you need to let this go. ~Adjwilley (talk) 07:40, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Adjwilley, thanks for your time and thoughts. I did try to put the past behind me but I started the Murzyn page and if VM edits it by mis-citing sources that were correctly quoted and then being rude when I ask him to desist, then problems are bound to happen. Over and out and thanks once again. Malick78 (talk) 23:13, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

On African American vs. Black American...

Okay what we need to understand is that the United States was formed on the basis of White Supremacy. Therefore, the entire cultural and historical identity of black people in the U.S. was formed by victimization by white supremacy/race/racism.

So the descendants of slaves in America are "Black Americans." "African American" is still useful as an umbrella term to refer to them AND African immigrants to the U.S., but "Black American" is us. "Black" is what we are now. This is how we think of ourselves, and that's what we call each other. "African American" is technically correct, but it's not our name.

See, "black" exists outside the U.S. as well, in the UK, there is an article for "black British." They have a different history.

We we don't REALLY identify with "African" except in name. It's really a PC name shoved on us without consensus. We call each other "black" but since we're in the U.S, we can be reasonable certain we're all black Americans. "Black" can either refer to the race, more internationally, or a local ethnic group.

But PLEASE get rid of "African American." It's really grinding my gears. And it also gets frustrating when people are too scared to call us what we are, or use "African American" when they're not even talking about people in the U.S. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DPhBeast (talk • contribs)

Hi DPhBeast, thank you for the message. That's good to know. Is there a particular article you had in mind when you were writing this? Some use of the term somewhere you'd like me to fix perhaps? ~Adjwilley (talk) 05:27, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

On the name of the article "African Americans," I'd prefer it to be named "Black Americans," but I don't have the authority to do so. Also, on the article on African Immigration to the U.S, I think it may be best to name that article "African Americans," then qualify on that article that the term can also be used to describe black Americans and/or those who have integrated with them.

On this issue, it's my understanding that most black Americans like the term "African American," though certainly OP's position is far from unheard of. We could note that some black Americans don't identify with the term, but it's hard to justify renaming the article altogether.

We can't equate "African Immigrants to the U.S." with "African Americans" because African immigrants include white (Afrikaaners) and brown (Berber/Arab people) people, not just blacks. The common sense definition of African American (reflected on the WP page) is American of sub-Saharan African descent. This is also the definition used by the federal government. Steeletrap (talk) 02:08, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Crossing vs. deletion

I'm puzzled by your comment apparently saying I shouldn't be concerned about this. First, I believe that crossing is generally (and strongly) encouraged over deletion in a talk page type setting. Second, in this particular case, another user has admitted that two of her allegations of misrepresentation against me were based on false statements. (all of them are, but those two were particularly easy to falsify.) Deleting the accusation, or rewriting it with a completely different rationale, is not fair to me, because it renders my (correct/conceded) accusations of misrepresentation in the evidence unintelligible. Steeletrap (talk) 20:51, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

As I understand it, strikethrough is encouraged in threaded talk page discussions when you're editing your own comments that others have already responded to. Carolmooredc's edit was to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Austrian economics/Evidence which is not a talk page, nor is it threaded. What I don't know is whether it was responded to on the evidence page before she removed it, but I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference whether it's stricken or removed completely. I imagine the arbs are most interested in the evidence itself, not so much the process in which the evidence was compiled. (A stricken diff that's not evidence on the evidence page isn't very helpful to anyone.) Like I said on the talk page, if you think Carol's mistake is serious enough to be used as evidence, you can add it to your own section. I commented because it seemed that Carol was acting in good faith and the strong language in the section heading ("...attempt to cover-up (admitedly) false allegations...") and subsequent piling on seemed out of proportion to what Carolmooredc actually did. ~Adjwilley (talk) 05:46, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Please comment on changes to the AfC mailing list

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WikiProject Articles for creation March 2014 Backlog Elimination Drive

Hello Adjwilley:

WikiProject AFC is holding a month long Backlog Elimination Drive!
The goal of this drive is to eliminate the backlog of unreviewed articles. The drive is running from March 1, 2014 to March 31, 2014.

Awards will be given out for all reviewers participating in the drive in the form of barnstars at the end of the drive.
There is a backlog of over 1700 articles, so start reviewing articles! Visit the drive's page and help out!

WP:AGF

Your criticisms of "stalking" are not only hypocritical (since they omit Carol, who admits to having followed me to pages recently) but false. It makes little sense that I would "follow" Carol to an article she hasn't frequented for a year. On the other hand, it makes a lot of sense that I (someone who has previously edited pages on anti-Semitism and the BLP of Alan Dershowitz, and is a proud Ashkenazi jew) would correct an attempt to portray Dersh's criticism of an explicitly pro-Holocaust denial book as mere opinion. I came to the page because I recently read an essay of Dershowitz' on the subject. That Carol was the one who misrepresented Dersh was incidental to my motives. She frequents pages on jewish subjects and tendentiously pushes for the inclusion of 'anti-Zionist' themes (was one of only a few regular editors to the deleted page "Allegations of Jewish Control of the Media", and pushed against its deletion until changing course after criticism. She also fails to live up to the common-sense standards outlined on the WP:Competence essay. So while it is a coincidence that she was the one I reverted, it was hardly an unforseeable one. Steeletrap (talk) 06:02, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Replied on your talk page. ~Adjwilley (talk) 06:31, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Since I do watch Steeletrap's edits to see where she's been inserting or deleting questionable material per her POV and vs policy, I did notice your exchange at her talk page (and we've banned each other, cutting out that round of back and forth anyway).

Of course, she's wrong the two places she accuses me of stalking her. WP:Competence was already being edited by Srich and Binksternet to deal with questionable Steeletrap edits during Arbitration when I joined in. And Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Jews_and_Communism is on lots of Wikiproject deletion lists and TFD nominated it so I was curious what TFD had to say. (And there's no consensus on the AfD since wikipedia is not as censored as some might like, which is why I was bold enough to opine.)

Considering that Steeletrap has barely learned a thing about presenting material in an NPOV way since she started, Senior editors do have to monitor her. (Though I haven't paid much attention on articles outside my areas of interest, especially since it looked like experienced editors were dealing with Steeletrap issues.) However, given Misplaced Pages's continuing failure to enforce BLP, I won't argue on the Atzmon edit. Unless of course something actually happens in next few days to show Misplaced Pages is serious about BLP... I think I would have complained to an Admin about enforcement in WP:ARBPIA about her edit summary, to get a warning on those only, if we weren't already in an Arbitration and don't want to double down.

Feel free to reply on my talk page to hopefully more quickly finish the discussion off. :-) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:32, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Sandbox the Tenth

I left a note for you here. Also I thought I'd point out the older discussions on that page that might need archiving, being no longer related to the present contents of the sandbox. alanyst 15:04, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Ludwig von Mises Institute faculty

Can you please edit the "faculty" section of Ludwig von Mises Institute? There are several typographical errors there involving the dashes; a couple names (Huerta de Soto and Napolitano) need dashes while the dash after Sam Francis is smaller than the others, and should be changed to match them. Also: Francis is dead and thus his lifespan (1947-2005) should appear before the dash as it does with Rothbard and Sobran. Also: Rothbard's work as a "theorist" is more informative and important than his work as a "pundit"; I would replace the latter term with the former after "paleolibertarian" in Rothbard's description. I almost made these changes, thinking that even though doing so would technically violate the no edit rule, common sense would absolve me of any criticism for it. (who can object to fixing typos?) But common sense rarely rules the day on WP. Thus, I ask you to do it for me. Steeletrap (talk) 00:17, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Seems reasonable enough. Thanks for erring on the side of caution. ~Adjwilley (talk) 05:22, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Srich32977 editing AE pages

This is unacceptable. Rich made an agreement not to edit these pages during the Arbitration. You should block or warn him for violating it. He also violated the IBAN by reverting my edit on another (non Austrian/LvMI/libertarian) article. I will not edit the lib/Austrian pages, but I am no longer abiding by the IBAN, because it is illogical to do so when the other parties insist on interacting with me.

You should ban him (from the AE pages) until the end of the proceedings or, at the very least, admonish him not to violate formal agreements with other editors.

Note: To my chagrin, SPECIFICO continues to edit AE articles. While this is inadvisable, he cannot be accused of breaking his word and breaking faith with the Committee because he never agreed to refrain from editing. Steeletrap (talk) 00:11, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I stand by my statement at Arbcom. I take responsibility for my edits and, unlike some of the others who continued to squabble and denigrate others, mine do not violate policy or civility. I note that there's been no similar "agreement" at Gun Control, where the same cast of characters continues to edit during their jury deliberations. As to why Srich would pledge not to edit and pledge not to interact -- and then proceed uninterrupted to do so, I have no idea. I think we all expected better of him. He's engaged in some EW behavior at Walter Block where he is deleting impeccably sourced factual statements. SPECIFICO talk 00:32, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I, too, regret that Specifico continues to edit certain articles. As he has done so, no one has the right to say I "blatantly violated" anything. What should I do – sit on my hands when improper editing occurs as it did here? Basically I reverted the material the IP put in (which Specifico seemed to endorse), and I opened a discussion about the particular edit. Specifico, the IP, and Steeletrap have yet to comment in that discussion. As for the template, Steeletrap should mention that she is the one who reverted the edit to the template parameters, but Steeletrap Template_talk:Infobox_economist had said nothing to rebut the March 4th rationale for keeping the parameter out. Is my edit to Block unacceptable? I had opened a discussion regarding the particular piece. Specifico (and Steeletrap) did not contribute to the discussion. "Edit warring" indeed – a completely unfounded accusation! – S. Rich (talk) 00:40, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

@Srich32977: while I don't see any problem with your edits, I'm disappointed that you chose to break your side of the agreement. There might be an argument that this edit fell under the "exceptions" (as calling an organization a "cult" in the Lead is almost always unacceptable) but on the others I don't see what was so pressing that it couldn't wait.

@SPECIFICO: I'm not impressed with your behavior either. It's one thing to decline to participate in the voluntary edit restrictions, but continuing to edit disputed topics when everyone but you has agreed to stop is poor form in my opinion.

@All, if this continues, the voluntary edit restrictions are soon going to become much less voluntary. It looks like the arbcom case is making some progress. Please take some time off and find something fun and unrelated to edit. ~Adjwilley (talk) 20:18, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

@Adjwilley: -- With all due respect, I stated that I take responsibility for my edits. If any of them violate policy, that is my responsibility. On the other hand I do not feel it's appropriate for you to judge me for doing ordinary course edits or for declining your invitation for a restriction. We have editors in the Gun Control arbitration continuing to edit. To be perfectly frank, Adjwilley, many editors have expressed disappointment that you and other Admins did not fulfill your responsibilities after the Community Sactions were put in place. If Admins had done so, this time consuming and unnecessary arbitration might have been avoided. With all due respect, you appear to me to be covering your ass by compensating for earlier lapses. That's my frank personal reaction to your gratuitous opinion of my conduct. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 20:43, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough, and thank you for sharing your frank opinion. Just to be clear on my perspective here, I am just as much a volunteer as you, and as such I tend to put real life ahead of my responsibilities on Misplaced Pages. I am sorry that my attempt at mediation failed, and I frankly admit that it was at least partially my fault, but please don't pin the arbitration on me or other admins, many of whom tried and unfortunately failed to head it off. ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:07, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Cool. I'm just concerned that, again to be frank, some of us have stopped the squabbling and ad hominems and as one of those, I don't like to be mentioned in the same breath with others who have not. On WP unfortunately there are many casual readers and amateur arbiters and guilt by association seems to be an unfortunate byproduct of the very important and otherwise productive openness of the project. Thanks for your note. SPECIFICO talk 21:53, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I have to question your judgment for thinking there is 'nothing wrong' with Srich's edits. He removed tons of superbly sourced content, from the New York Times and Inside Higher Ed. He claimed this was because the subject of the BLP disputed the RS reporting. Why not just include (as I did) Block's argument (which is not supported by any of the RS that have commented on the matter) that he was quoted out of context? It does not seem to be in compliance with policy to remove RS-supported material en masse, just because a subject of a BLP doesn't like it. Steeletrap (talk) 23:13, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I think you might have misunderstood. I'm talking policy and you're thinking content. There's no policy saying that reliably sourced material can't be removed. Whether SRich's edit was editorially sound is debatable, but from a policy and procedural perspective I don't see anything wrong with it. ~Adjwilley (talk) 23:49, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Succession to Muhammad Page

Hi Adjwilley I added some content into the Succession to Muhammad page but Kazemita1 keeps on removing it citing copy right violation even though I gave the references and the whole page is already full of quotes from various books. I want to avoid an edit war. I want to improve Misplaced Pages so that it contains researched scholarly content, that is useful to the readers. This whole article is full of people pushing their opinions. There needs to be a critical analysis of the content on this page. Various books have been written on this issues through out the ages and this content needs to be put into a table so that people could compare what was said when and by whom and why. Thanks --Johnleeds1 (talk) 21:05, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

@Johnleeds1: It looks like people aren't having issues as much with the content or the references, but the fact that you are using long quotes from the references. (WP:COPYVIO is the policy on this.) Even though the quotes are attributed, it can still be problematic. I suggest that instead of using quotes, you paraphrase what the authors said, using your own words, but still attributing the ideas to the authors in the text, and still providing the source. With that out of the way, it will be easier to see what the actual content issues are. ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:26, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

NOTICE of ANI

There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. – S. Rich (talk) 19:14, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Now that you have TB'd Steeletrap on AE subjects (because of the Hoppe edits), I wonder if hatting the first section of the ANI would help resolve the second section. I believe my request for restrictions as to Steele (because the the Walter Block edits & reverts) is moot. My goal is accomplished – we have general sanctions applied in at least one case. I am sorry it is Steeletrap who got sanctioned first. Until Steele did that last Block revert I thought we were making progress on improving the article. – S. Rich (talk) 04:11, 4 April 2014 (UTC) PS: Should you be signing the sanctions page? 04:46, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Edit War on Hoppe

Hello Adjwilley. You recently protected Hans-Hermann Hoppe but there's now been a resumption of edit warring there, and some manifest incivility: . I am not getting involved in the ANI except to respond to various false statments about myself but it seems to me that Darkness Shines should be added to the ANI at this point. SPECIFICO talk 21:52, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Please block Darkness from the page. Look at his block log and tell me with a straight face that he's a good-faith editor. Also, many of the earlier "reversions" you posted on my page were attempts to restore to a consensus version established by (of all people) Binksternet. DarknessShine, who has an incredibly long block log, edit-warred them out. But my new additions are of a different kind -- and I stopped them after two reverts. Why I am being singled out is beyond me, but please block Darkness as well. Steeletrap (talk) 01:54, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Topic ban

On the ANI, can you edit your post to specify that the topic ban you gave me is temporary, pending the Arbcom investigation? I also would appreciate if provided your reason for topic banning me on the ANI.

By the way, I'm sorry for blowing up at you earlier. The whole situation is making me anxious and sometimes I edit impulsively when I feel that way. You are right that I shouldn't have been editing the Hoppe page. I think the topic ban might be a good thing for me as an editor in the long run, particularly if it includes the other users mentioned on the ANI. It might be more productive to move to less contentious matters and be satisfied with the fact that most of my edits to the Austrian pages over the last 12 months have been upheld and improved the encyclopedia. Steeletrap (talk) 03:50, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

@Steeletrap: I suggest you go to the "blow up " and strike what you said. – S. Rich (talk) 05:56, 4 April 2014 (UTC)15:13, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Rich, your heavy-handed admonitions are not appreciated. I am apologizing and taking a topic ban in stride. Your 'mansplaining' is not a good addition to the discussion. Steeletrap (talk) 06:03, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

It's mind-boggling, actually. An editor volunteers for an IBAN. He violates it. He brings an ANI drawing many others into discussing whether to impose the same IBAN he chose to ignore. Then while advocating he be forced to stop the behavior he will not voluntarily adopt, he visits this page to demonstrate the same behavior which he seeks to have forcibly prevented. "Who is that masked man?" "That's no outlaw... He's the Lone Ranger!" SPECIFICO talk 15:43, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

@Steeletrap, thanks for the note. I hope this helps a bit. ~Adjwilley (talk) 16:25, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Hoppe

Could you add "He is Distinguished Fellow at the Ludwig von Mises Institute" to the lede? Apart from UNLV, LvMI has been the focal point of Hoppe's work. Steeletrap (talk) 17:07, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore you there. I had been spending all of my wiki-time on a tricky close, and this slipped my mind. You might try making an edit request on the article talk page. (This particular topic ban does allow for that.) ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:04, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Actors profile image

I was wondering if you could change a actors profile image for me? I can't figure it out. Thank you JamieDalton089 (talk) 02:29, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been offline for a while. (Fairly literally actually) We had been sharing Wifi with a neighboring apartment and they moved out...still working on a solution for internet that doesn't involve my phone's data plan. I'll have a look at it when I can. If you'll let me know which actor and which image you want changed I can probably help you. (It will probably be a matter of changing an "image=..." parameter in the infobox.) Sorry for the delay! ~Adjwilley (talk) 14:40, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton

Thanks for agreeing to help close this discussion - and thanks for your update saying that you have reached a conclusion and are working on wording. However, there is a problem: somehow the entire note at the top of the discussion (with TP's "discussion suspended" comment and your update note) has disappeared and is not visible at the page. Offhand I can't see why; can you figure out how to make that note visible? Thanks! --MelanieN (talk) 14:57, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Hillary Rodham Clinton‎

Hi Adjwilley, I read your analysis (with TParis) and I wanted to tell you how much I appreciate the careful thought you put into it. This was a very difficult decision to make in assessing consensus as understood on Misplaced Pages and the only way to do it correctly was the way you broke the problem down into its various subcomponents and assessing policy together with empirical evidence. I know you are going to catch a lot of heat for this decision, but you made it using a thoughtful rational process, which is all one can ask for. --I am One of Many (talk) 17:32, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Ditto. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:50, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you both for the note, it is very much appreciated. ~Adjwilley (talk) 18:24, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Same here. Thank you. Tvoz/talk 23:50, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Yet another thank you...with a gift:

		The Half Barnstar
		For your work on a complicated closing on a yet another move request at Hillary Rodham Clinton. The other half goes to TParis. Thanks again for all your hard work! (Mark Miller)Maleko Mela (talk) 06:37, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Mark, I appreciate that very much. ~Adjwilley (talk) 20:54, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Adultery article

Since you are well versed in religious topics, do you have anything to weigh in on with regard to this edit made by Ewawer? Seems to me that the term adultery has "an Abrahamic origin" and that the term adultery did not exist in the "Greco-Roman world," though the wording Lex Iulia de Adulteriis Coercendis is noted in the Greco-Roman world section of the Adultery article. The Abrahamic wording prior to Ewawer's edit clearly distinguished "term" from "concept," stating that while the concept existed pre-Abrahamic time, the term did not. I made this note in response to Ewawer's edit, quoting a line from the source in the first paragraph. I know that we could also take this matter to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Religion. Flyer22 (talk) 04:52, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, I actually didn't know about the origins of the word myself. I'll have a look at in on Sunday, as I probably won't get to it tomorrow. ~Adjwilley (talk) 05:39, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

My point is that the cultural objection to adultery was a common cultural feature of at least the Near East well before Abraham's time.Enthusiast (talk) 06:04, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Even if so, was the cultural objection termed adultery at that time? That's my point. The text you altered was distinguishing terminological use from the concept. Flyer22 (talk) 06:08, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Enthusiast (talk) 14:43, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I spent a half hour today looking for sources to clarify the issue for me, but I haven't found anything yet that would significantly alter the discussion. I'll return to it later when I get another chance. ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:33, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Ewawer (Enthusiast), I'm not sure what you are agreeing to there.

Thanks, Adjwilley. No rush. Flyer22 (talk) 21:05, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Pending move review notification

Per WP:MR - "Prior to requesting a review, you should attempt to resolve any issues with the closer on their talk page." - This is notification on your talk page that resolution is being sought over the closing of the Hillary Clinton RM7 discussion in which you were involved. The "issues" with the closing are obviously extensively discussed on the Hillary Clinton talk page. Do you feel you can offer resolution to the issues discussed? Thank you. NickCT (talk) 13:14, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Note that NickCT quite properly approached all 3 closers, and I have already replied on my talk page. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:31, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, NickCT for the notification. If I had to do it again I probably would have put the statement in paragraph 6 about WP:RS in paragraph 3, so as to not imply that WP:COMMONNAME or WP:RS was what tipped it into the no consensus zone. (WP:RS took some weight out of the pro-WP:COMMONNAME arguments, but WP:TITLECHANGES was the main tipper for myself and at least one of the other admins.) I also sympathize with the criticism that the move request was closed early. At the time it seemed like a good idea because the discussion seemed to have entered into a phase of more bickering and squabbling than new ideas, and we felt a speedy resolution would be less disruptive to Misplaced Pages overall. (We had no idea that real-life issues would be crippling one of our number for so long after the initial suspension of discussion.) It might have also been good to let it run for a little longer to let people adjust to the new information that had become available about Clinton's preference toward HRC, which apparently would have caused at least one person to change their vote to oppose, and may have influenced new voters, though probably not in a way that would have significantly changed the discussion or close, and probably not in a way that would help the case you plan to make at move review. I hope that provides at least a bit of "resolution" for yourself and other supporters, though I don't expect it will change any minds. Best, ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:54, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

No. It probably won't change minds. But the attempt is appreciated anyway.

For the record, I agree that WP:TITLECHANGES was probably the strongest "oppose" argument. The applicability of the "don't switch one controversial title for another controversial title" idea is clear. That said, >2/3 of folks supported HC, right? What level of support does a particular title actually need before you can say it's non-controversial?

Obviously this conversation could descend very quickly into one of those "What does consensus really mean" debates (let's not go there), but I think it's fair to say that HC was clearly the less controversial title (as evidenced by the considerable majority that supported it).

If you took WP:TITLECHANGES to its extreme, you'd say that you can never change titles because almost every potential title might be controversial to someone. Clearly that's wrong. Clearly one has to say that when a certain level of agreement surrounds a new title WP:TITLECHANGES no longer applies. What is that level? Is 2/3 not enough?

Anyways, regardless of your position, as I mentioned to Brown, your efforts, thoughts and attention on this matter were appreciated, and this move review is done with respectful dissent. NickCT (talk) 17:23, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

WP:TITLECHANGES clearly discourages title changes for no good reason. In this case that requires dismissing WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CRITERIA and WP:CONCISE, not to mention WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, as good reasons to change a title. I'm baffled as to how that could even be given any serious consideration.

Anyway, just to be clear, Adjwilley, have you seen the move review draft lately? We want to be sure these issues cannot be resolved with the panel in the hopes that we can spare the community a move review, if possible. Thanks! --В²C ☎ 15:04, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, B2C. Just to be clear on our side, none of the policy you listed above was dismissed or ignored. We didn't throw anything out the window, but did our best to weigh the competing issues and policies and the strength of the underlying arguments. Is shaving 7 bytes off an article's title per WP:CONCISE sufficient reason to move a high profile article that has been in the same place for a long time? Is systemic bias an issue? (Probably over 90% of the voters were male...did they consider what it means for a woman to keep her maiden name instead of taking her husband's name?) Does the subject's preference matter? How much? Should the random passerby who says "Move per commonname...I've always heard it X" get as much weight as someone like WastedTimeR who has obviously read several books on the subject and has made as many edits to the article as the next 20 contributors combined? Which name is the common name, and is there evidence to support that? How much weight do we give the "Official names" essay? Are book/print sources better than news/online sources? Few of these questions were fully answered, but I assure you that none of them were ignored, and none of them, by themselves, tipped the balance in one direction or another.

I just wanted to make one other thing clear, since I seem to remember you mentioning suspicions of personal bias clouding our decision. When I (naively) volunteered to close this I thought about how I might vote if I were participating in the discussion, and about as much as I came up with was "I dunno...flip a coin". I really didn't care enough about it to form a hard opinion, and I still don't. That is the reason I felt comfortable enough to volunteer as one of the closers. (A negative side effect of this, however, is that I fail to understand why people care so much about the issue.) While reading the discussion I know that I and at least one of the other admins changed our minds a number of times as to which way to close it, but we ended up on the same page in the end.

Anyway, thank you again for the note; I appreciate the time it took you to work up the move review draft. I read it, and though I don't agree with all of it, I can appreciate the concerns, as it was a close call. I'm not entirely sure how MR works (I haven't been over there in a long time) but I hope that it goes smoothly for everybody. ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:59, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I was just speculating about reasons for the decision, and personal bias was a theoretical possibility. I have no reason to believe that was actually a contributing factor for any of the panelists. Your statements here convince me it was just plain good faith faulty reasoning that lead to the "no consensus" decision.

Yes, shaving 7 bytes off an article's title per WP:CONCISE is sufficient reason to move a high profile article that has been in the same place for a long time, if no comparable policy supports the longer title (no one can identify any such policy), especially if no consensus support for the current title has been demonstrated during that long time (and it hasn't), and participant preference clearly favors the move.

The systemic bias argument is that participant preference should be discounted (if not dismissed) because of the bias of males who fail to "consider what it means for a woman to keep her maiden name instead of taking her husband's name". That might be relevant if the woman in question did not take her husband's name, and did not commonly refer to herself as "Hillary Clinton". Plus, our policy to follow usage in reliable sources protects us from (internal) systemic bias. That's the whole point of following usage in RS. Finally, theoretical possibility alone is no reason to give any consideration any weight, and theoretical possibility is all there is supporting the notion that systemic bias or sexism was at play here.

The Jimbo-supplied information about subject preference only came up after the discussion was closed and should not have been given any weight as the participants had no opportunity to weigh in on it.

Is the more natural and recognizable title to most readers likely to be more like that of a "random passerby", or more like that of a subject expert like WastedTimeR? For questions of appropriate article content I would definitely give WastedTimeR's view more credence - but for title determination the expert's view needs to be discounted, if weighted differently at all.

No one even disputed that HC is more commonly used in reliable sources. The only counter-argument was a novel one based on the claim that HRC was more commonly used in "high quality" RS. There was very little support for this novel counter-argument in the discussion, and none in policy or convention. It should not have been given much weight at all.

I accept that you saw this as a close call, but, perhaps due to a lack of experience in the area of title-decision making and RMs, I also think you made some serious errors in judgement in order to see it as a close call, which explains why TITLECHANGES was the "main tipper" for you. --В²C ☎ 17:06, 16 May 2014 (UTC)