Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 08:11, 27 May 2014

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are SJ, Phoebe, and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is Maggie Dennis.

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

Archives: Index, Index, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252Auto-archiving period: 1 day

This user talk page might be watched by friendly talk page stalkers, which means that someone other than me might reply to your query. Their input is welcome and their help with messages that I cannot reply to quickly is appreciated.

Archives

Index –index– October 28, 2001 – April 12, 2004 April 16, 2004 – August 23, 2004 August 28, 2004 – December 8, 2004 December 9, 2004 – March 23, 2005 March 23, 2005 – July 24, 2005 July 26, 2005 – September 9, 2005 September 9, 2005 – September 24, 2005 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 – late May 2006 May 24 – July 2006 July 2006 – August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 – Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 – December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 – Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 – Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007– Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2–5, 2007 March 5–11, 2007 March 11 – April 3, 2007 April 2 – May 2, 2007 May 3 – June 7, 2007 June 9 – July 4, 2007 July 13 – August 17, 2007 August 17 – September 11, 2007 September 14 – October 7, 2007 October 28 – December 1, 2007 December 2 – December 16, 2007 December 15 – January 4, 2008 January 4 – January 30, 2008 January 30 – February 28, 2008 February 28 – March 11, 2008 March 9 – April 18, 2008 April 18 – May 30, 2008 May 30 – July 27, 2008 July 26 – October 4, 2008 October 4 – November 12, 2008 November 10 – December 10, 2008 December 5 – December 25, 2008 December 25 – January 16, 2009 January 15 – January 27, 2009 January 26 – February 10, 2009 February 8 – March 18, 2009 March 18 – May 6, 2009 May 5 – June 9, 2009 June 10 – July 11, 2009 July 12 – August 25, 2009 August 26 – October 3, 2009 October 4 – November 20, 2009 November 20 – December 21, 2009 December 22, 2009 – January 25, 2010 January 22, 2010 – February 22, 2010 February 22, 2010 – March 17, 2010 March 17, 2010 – April 9, 2010 April 11, 2010 – April 24, 2010 April 23, 2010 – May 12, 2010 May 10, 2010 – June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 – June 26, 2010 June 26, 2010 – July 22, 2010 July 22, 2010 – August 23, 2010 August 4, 2010 – August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 – September 14, 2010 September 13, 2010 – October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 – November 8, 2010 November 8, 2010 – November 21, 2010 November 21, 2010 – December 6, 2010 December 6, 2010 – December 22, 2010 December 21, 2010 – January 17, 2011 January 16, 2011 – February 10, 2011 February 6, 2011 – March 19, 2011 March 16, 2011 – March 26, 2011 March 26, 2011 – April 22, 2011 April 22, 2011 – May 16, 2011 May 17, 2011 – June 9, 2011 June 10, 2011 – July 1, 2011 July 1, 2011 – July 15, 2011 July 16, 2011 – July 26, 2011 July 26, 2011 – August 15, 2011 August 14, 2011 – August 23, 2011 August 21, 2011 – August 31, 2011 August 30, 2011 – September 7, 2011 September 4, 2011 – September 25, 2011 September 26, 2011 – October 19, 2011 October 16, 2011 – November 5, 2011 November 4, 2011 – November 12, 2011 November 11, 2011 – November 24, 2011 November 24, 2011 – December 6, 2011 December 3, 2011 – December 14, 2011 December 10, 2011 – December 16, 2011 (RFC about the Stop Online Piracy Act) December 15, 2011 – December 30, 2011 December 27, 2011 – January 9, 2012 January 9, 2012 – January 18, 2012 January 17, 2012 – January 30, 2012 January 28, 2012 – February 12, 2012 February 7, 2012 – February 25, 2012 February 19, 2012 – March 4, 2012 February 27, 2012 – March 18, 2012 March 17, 2012 – April 2, 2012 March 31, 2012 – April 13, 2012 April 12, 2012 – April 18, 2012 April 18, 2012 – April 26, 2012 April 26, 2012 – May 6, 2012 May 2, 2012 – May 22, 2012 May 19, 2012 – June 9, 2012 June 4, 2012 – June 20, 2012 June 18, 2012 – June 28, 2012 June 26, 2012 – July 12, 2012 July 3, 2012 – July 22, 2012 July 19, 2012 – July 29, 2012 July 25, 2012 – August 9, 2012 August 7, 2012 – August 30, 2012 August 29, 2012 – September 13, 2012 September 13, 2012 – September 27, 2012 September 26, 2012 – October 5, 2012 September 24, 2012 – October 20, 2012 October 9, 2012 – October 31, 2012 October 29, 2012 – November 19, 2012 November 17, 2012 – December 5, 2012 December 2–15, 2012 December 15–28, 2012 December 24, 2012 – January 12, 2013 January 13–31, 2013 February 1–10, 2013 February 11–28, 2013 March 1–16, 2013 March 17–27, 2013 March 28 – April 6, 2013 April 6–19, 2013 April 19 – May 3, 2013 April 25 – May 8, 2013 May 6–19, 2013 May 18–30, 2013 May 27 – June 16, 2013 June 17–30, 2013 June 27 – July 30, 2013 July 31 – August 4, 2013 August 4–12, 2013 August 13–27, 2013 August 28 – September 4, 2013 September 5–10, 2013 September 11–22, 2013 September 24 – October 6, 2013 October 7–16, 2013 October 17–27, 2103 October 28 – November 6, 2013 November 7–19, 2013 November 20–27, 2013 November 28 – December 5, 2013 December 6–24, 2013 December 25–30, 2013 December 31, 2013 – January 14, 2014 January 15–24, 2014 January 25–29, 2014 January 30 – February 10, 2014 Archives not yet dated: 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 This manual archive index may be out of date. Future archives: 184 185 186

This page has archives. Sections older than 24 hours may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 2 sections are present.

Inclusive growth relative to employment growth per tax incidence

Hi Jimbo,

Would you please respond at Talk:Tax policy and economic inequality in the United States#Top marginal rate versus job growth graph again?

For reference please see . This is particularly important because your pre-Misplaced Pages activities may be contributing to systemic bias starkly opposed to WP:SECONDARY economics evaluations of peer reviewed academic journals as per this discussion.

Thank you. Best regards, EllenCT (talk) 10:43, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

As far as I can tell my views are not controversial in this matter, and reflect the ongoing consensus of the editors in this area. I think rather than fighting about this one clearly misleading and oversimplified graph, your time might be better spent documenting in some detail the specific "evaluations of peer reviewed academic journals".

Note well that my position is purely editorial here: I take no position at all on the underlying question of the relation between income inequality and tax rates on the one hand, and growth/prosperity on the other hand. The point is that the reader deserves a clear and appropriate explanation of the current state of research into that question, and not a cartoonish oversimplification of the question.

And finally, my views do not determine what belongs in Misplaced Pages, so it isn't me you have to convince.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:57, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. Do you have any reason to doubt the accuracy of the data presented in the graph? Is there a source which you believe contradicts the implications of the graph? If not, why do you say it is oversimplified and misleading? There is a popular treatment of a corresponding correction stemming from a different error at , which may be more accessible than the Ostry and Berg work. As those corrections agree with each other, I urge you to reflect on whether your views are in fact controversial relative to the secondary sources in economics. EllenCT (talk) 10:05, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

I think it's not controversial to suggest that the post WWII boom had nothing to do with high marginal tax rates, and more to do with strong demand for goods and services. Where in this Misplaced Pages article do you see any reference to high marginal tax rates for the wealthy? If EllenCT were correct, and high taxes and growth were causally related, you'd think reputable economists would have mentioned it.Mattnad (talk) 14:38, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Strong demand for goods and services is the result of a strong and growing middle class. You ask an excellent question. As the sources above show, economists have been mentioning it by correcting a series of math errors since 2011. EllenCT (talk) 23:54, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

You are quite close to economic consensus on this. The examples chosen are all ones where specific external factors (that is, other than "income inequality" are rather easily noted. The WP article on Cameroon states An economic crisis took effect in the mid-1980s to late 1990s as a result of international economic conditions, drought, falling petroleum prices, and years of corruption, mismanagement, and cronyism which gives a couple or more other factors other than "income inequality" for the economic problems at that time. The reader is invited to guess why Chile had instability in the early 1970s, and it has nothing to do with "income inequality." Jordan ditto - I suggest the authors of the "correlation" failed to note major external events. Brazil is interesting -- as the military left it with hyperinflation, which means that "income inequality" was among the least of its problems. Chart 4 manages to leave out "major regime change", "hyperinflation", "war" and "major drought" as factors at all, yet any economist would note those as quite substantial factors indeed. Collect (talk) 16:24, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Anecdotes are not data. EllenCT (talk) 23:54, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Yep. Wars, droughts and hyperinflation are "anecdotes." Collect (talk) 00:07, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Are there any reasons to believe that those factors are more significant predictors of the duration of growth spells than the five which Ostry and Berg identified as the principle components in their study of several decades of data series from 140 countries? EllenCT (talk) 10:05, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

For starters, yes. A world war has a bigger impact on an economy than marginal (and not even effective) tax rates. Also, we're not discussing the esoteric Ostry and Berg graph, but a graph with selective data created by an editor that has been critiqued extensively as WP:OR and misleading.Mattnad (talk) 00:14, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo, you may also be interested in and . EllenCT (talk) 23:54, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

BLP violation in signpost?

Hi Jimbo. Happy Memorial Day weekend.

I've enjoyed some of the recent updates in the signpost, but today's entry on the election of Narendra Modi in the notes section of the Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2014-05-21/Traffic report troubled me and looking into it more I find it problematic.

Perhaps I am nitpicking, but why is Narendra Modi tied to the assassin of Gandhi and is it appropriate to call his campaign "slick"? Wouldn't "effective" be more appropriate and neutral wording? This seems like a badly biased entry.

I looked into it a bit and the assasination of Gandhi appears to have occurred 2 years before Modi was born and the assassin was a former member of Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh who left to form a more militant group according to sources in our article on the subject (the signpost entry describes him as having been a "proud member" of the group). Wouldn't this be a bit like mentioning the Democrat Party's support for segregation in an article on a Democrat Party politician? It seems awfully smeary. This bias seems to extend to the RSS article as well. I think we should be careful about throwing around terms like right-wing wily nily (for example).

India is the second most populous nation in the world and I think we can do a better job covering their elected leaders. Thanks for any insights and input from you and your talkpage watchers. Have a good one. Candleabracadabra (talk) 03:48, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Hmmmm. I would love to hear user Sitush's opinion on this.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:52, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

I looked at the Modi article and the actual article looks pretty good to me. So it's not all bad news. Candleabracadabra (talk) 04:00, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Looking at it again, perhaps the word "slick" doesn't have the same negative connotation in Indian English as in American English (especially in relation to politicians)? Trying to see things in the most positive light. Candleabracadabra (talk) 04:10, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

• I've long been concerned with the neutrality of that section, as a lot of it is editorialising. BTW, I think the writer, Serendipodous, should be informed. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:12, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

• Note the hypocrisy. "Democrat" as an adjective is a smear already, and that party's support of segregation dates from quite some time ago. One might as well generalize that US whites approve of owning slaves, also a statement that was at some point in time perhaps partly true. Someone doesn't like to be reminded that the Civil Rights movement wasn't powered by Republicans--but the point was to stir the shit pot, of course. Drmies (talk) 15:53, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Curiously enough, MLK sr. and jr. were registered Republicans (According to his niece and records as of 1956 at least), and the 1964 Civil Rights Act was primarily supported by Republicans. Goldwater opposed it on constitutional issues, but the Senate vote had 82% of GOP support, and the House had 80% GOP support. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:24, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

I just noticed that the signpost is editable? Can I change it? Or should I leave it be for the sake of discussion? The editorializing does seem to be intended to be provocative and thought provoking, so I'm willing to grant some latitude. But the factual discrepancy seems a clear problem. I fixed it in one of the articles where the source said the assassin was a former member and the article said "active member". Perhaps that's where the error came from? Candleabracadabra (talk) 04:24, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

• I did not realize the Signpost was a newsletter I could edit, so the mistake is mine. I could just have fixed the problems. Have done so now. Candleabracadabra (talk) 14:20, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
• Signpost is not neutral in the sense of NPOV, nor is it intended to be. Among other things it advocates for open knowledge, obviously. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 20:46, 24 May 2014 (UTC).
  
  • Tying a person who wasn't born yet with the assassination of Indira Gandhi is far from the "yay free speech" POV you're suggesting. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:07, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

DRN

Harassment of the incoming executive director

Mr Wales, this appears very unprofessional and extremely unkind. Please remind the people on the list that Mr Tretikov is a person too. Hell might be other people (talk) 08:16, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the link—that thread is a real eye-opener. However, the very good advice being offered to Lila Tretikov's partner is not at all unprofessional or unkind. The thread starts here. Johnuniq (talk) 11:07, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Obviously my interests are a bit narrower in some respects than other editors, but I noticed in a WSJ article here about the appointment Jay Walsh says that Misplaced Pages is pushing for "more transparency" and "reinforcing that paid advocacy is not welcome". However in the string provided above she says she prefers to focus on the message, not the messenger, and that she listens to advocates from Wikipediaocracy despite their corrupted motives and habitual spin. So I was rather getting the impression that she might be soft on paid advocacy, but perhaps I am drawing a false comparison between different types of POV pushers. In either case, I was wondering how her appointment may influence issues like the new Terms of Service or the Wiki-PR legal dispute and what the latest was on these. CorporateM (Talk) 13:23, 25 May 2014 (UTC) (A frequent COI/marketing contributor)

It seems unlikely that her appointment will have any impact on the ongoing trend to root out and further ban paid advocacy editing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:31, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

@CorporateM: re: "However in the string provided above she says she prefers". (Emphasis added) Unless I've missed something the thread is by and about her partner, so the above should read he. He's stated multiple times that he is operating independently of his partner, the new ED. When I first heard about him contacting Wikipediocracy, I thought it was a nice, if somewhat naive, gesture on the part of the new ED to offer an olive branch to WO. So I was confused about who was contacting them, and many others likely were as well, but that confusion should now be cleared up.

Since he is an independent editor, he should feel free to ignore my advice, which is:

• Pick a role of either "totally independent editor" or "Caesar's wife" (avoiding even the suspicion of doing something improper), and maintain that distinction without fail
• You may be sorry if you don't take the Caesar's Wife role
• Never trust the "facts" or even the motivations of WO contributors, check everything, assume nothing
• Ignore most of the advice you've gotten on the matter - just folks blowing off steam in a contentious area.

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 21:22, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Oh thank you very much for clarifying. It seems I falsely presumed the comments in the string were from her. CorporateM (Talk) 22:10, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Mr Wales, I don't know why this thread is being hijacked to talk about corporate editing, but I am very concerned by the tone and contents of the messages on that official wikimedia mailing list. If you could please read the thread there and do something about the horrible harassment I would appreciate it. Hell might be other people (talk) 01:28, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Has the subject expressed an opinion that they feel harassed? Tarc (talk) 01:40, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Many people read this page and would have viewed the link in the OP. The fact that no one has commented about "horrible harassment" is a good indication that there is no such harassment. The linked message is blunt, but it comes after a long sequence of messages providing very accurate and sensationally helpful advice—advice that unfortunately is falling on deaf ears. As noted in the thread, the mess will give the new ED a wonderful opportunity to show her negotiating skills. Johnuniq (talk) 01:51, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

'The subject' has a name. Please at this point, do not objectify him. Wil seems to be keeping a positive spin on events, but which of us can really know if he feels harassed. I cannot incorporate, but just the tone of the veiled threats are a form of harassment, even if he does not issue an audible or visible complaint. So there, I have complained about harassment against Wil, but I will stop short of naming it "horrible". Fylbecatulous talk 20:47, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

• I'm pleased that Wil showed up at WPO and launched a transparent account there. I also think he is right on when he says "Here's where I get confused. If they are exposing serious problems that desperately need fixing, then what does it matter what their motives are? They may or may not choose to be part of the solution, but if we want to build the healthiest community possible isn't it important that we know what's not going right. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I personally care more about the message than the messenger, so it seems to make sense for me to participate there, too..." Of course, his very reasonable perspective has been met with a torrent of abuse of WPO from The Usual Suspects, but that's to be expected. I'm sure that as an intelligent man Wil can figure out who is who and why the shrill people are so shrill. Carrite (talk) 04:52, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

BLP concerns - James T. Butts, Jr.

I would like to take advantage of Jimbo's prior offer for editors with a COI to use his Talk page to vet concerns about a particular article.

This BLP page about a marginally notable city mayor in California has stuff like:

• Accusations of "bias, bigotry, and sham investigations" cited to an op-ed
• Two more op-eds are used to say he has contentious relationships with the community.
• It also makes extensive use of weak, primary or advocacy-type sources regarding allegations of police abuse. And it doesn't mention that these allegations were launched by convicted criminals and killers he arrested as a police officer.
• It uses a statement from the owner of a marijuana dispensary that was shut down (source) for broad statements about an alleged campaign he has against marijuana
• It uses political attack pieces from CityWatch in order to say that he had a contentious career.

Links:

• BLPN discussion
• a draft I threw together

I bring it up here because I felt the BLP violations were severe enough that my sense of urgency in addressing them was reasonable, but have been unable to do so in a Bright Line fashion over the last week. Note that most editors (I think) seem to support my depiction of things, however user:Tomwsulcer feels the current article is neutral and should remain as-is.

Thanks in advance for your time and attention. CorporateM (Talk) 12:16, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Suggestion for Jimbo? Ignore this request. You're much too important to get bogged down in this controversial subject. Rest assured there are numerous competent editors hashing it out, and will continue to hash it out until the next Big Bang. How about? Enjoy a fresh cup of coffee.:)--Tomwsulcer (talk) 12:46, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

When it comes to issues like this, I am important - as important as any Wikipedian. Because a BLP is at issue, I recommend that we put the dignity of the subject first and respond promptly to the concerns raised with a bias towards initially removing all remarks with even somewhat questionable sourcing and then having a discussion about adding back whatever is most helpful to the reader attempting to learn the full story ( good and bad). As a side note, as of this moment, I have not look at the article or any of the discussions at all. My main point is that the community should try very hard to deprive unethical editors (and I'm not saying CorporateM is one, since as I understand it he works hard to observe the Bright Line rule) of all kinds of the opportunity to claim that they have to do things the wrong way in order to prevent BLP violations.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:35, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Jimbo and user:Candleabracadabra. I know there is some sensitivity about COIs being demanding, but I felt this was a situation where my sense of urgency was appropriate. This is the kind of non-controversial edits I make routinely that are not Bright Line compliant, but I think even you wouldn't find to be problematic and are too mundane to bother other editors with. (we discussed this previously) As I was doing my best to over-compensate for my COI in the draft, there are still some questionable things. Like if you watch the video in this source it's questionable whether a single member of the audience heckling him really belongs in his biography. However these are more or less areas where editors may disagree I think and more reasonable to take at the normal NORUSH pace. CorporateM (Talk) 17:29, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the recent changes, notice anything missing? Butts was a named defendant in a court case that was upheld by the Supreme Court. His police officers continued to question suspects even after they asserted their Miranda rights to remain silent. The ACLU filed suit in 1995; in 1996, it was initially dismissed for lack of standing, but appealed in 1999, the the 9th circuit court ruled against the officers; see here also. Check out this source. In 2000, a law firm advised their clients about the law firm advising clients about the ruling. Here is another source. In 2000, the ACLU applauded the Supreme Court decision. In 2000, the Santa Monica city council, in closed session, discussed the Butts case. Essentially, in February 2000, the Supreme Court, by deciding not to review the Butts case, let the lower court case stand (the 9th circuit). In 2004, Supreme Court Justice Souter cited the Butts case. So, what is going on? All this information was artfully removed from the article, and now the focus seems to be on Butts' SWAT team efforts and such. Butts is a politician; it is likely there are public relations people working hard to obscure this information. As I said, this article will be constantly the subject of much battling, on and on, on and on. I hope you don't mind that I spent my Sunday drinking your coffee.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 20:10, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

It looks to me like there's an entire paragraph in the article about it. It's also discussed on the article talk page with a request for quality sources covering any role Butts had in the case beyond being named in the suit. Probably best to discuss it there and I would note that content requests are best served with specifics about exactly what additions are desired along with the sources that support the assertions. Candleabracadabra (talk) 20:26, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

The current treatment says there was a disputed lawsuit, but fails to mention that it went to the 9th Circuit Court and was upheld by the Supreme Court. CACJ v Butts is the law of the land. This detail gets lost among Butts and his SWAT teams fighting gangs, Butts building the Forum, Butts rising from the ranks, etc etc. Look, I got involved in this article a while back when the anti-Butts people really took him to task; I strove for a neutral tone; now it looks like Butts is ready for governor of California. Best version was the most recent one by Drmies -- solid, right tone, neutral, not the current puff piece.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 20:47, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

I have previously notified user:Drmies about the misleading use of "Drmies' version". He made a couple edits is all and that does not make the article "his version". Regarding the lawsuit, the only thing stated in reliable, secondary sources like The New York Times and the Seattle Times is that he was one of the defendants named. We have no idea if his involvement was trivial or more substantial. It is seriously questionable whether it should be in his article at all, because it veers off-topic into describing this lawsuit and not his involvement in it, of which we know nothing about. It's also difficult to evaluate if we are covering gossip, when the media reports on speculative accusations, but does not also report on the actual outcome. The article is about the BLP and if the lawsuit was substantial enough to have an abundance of source material, the proper place for it would be as a separate article, whereas his article would only describe his involvement in it. CorporateM (Talk) 21:13, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Puh-leeze. What about Police Magazine? Supreme Court Justice David Souter is the ideal secondary source: an impartial judge, writing a Supreme Court opinion, asking readers to refer to the CACJ v Butts decision since it is the law of the land, or would you say Souter is a biased source?--Tomwsulcer (talk) 21:27, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Drmies (that's me) indeed made only a few edits, removing some of the not so well-written material, and trimming some of the lengthy quotes. In no way did I stamp my approval (whatever that stamp may be worth) on anything, and I do believe that I noted also that quality, non-primary sources are needed. BTW, CorpM is a fairly regular and most welcome visitor on my talk page; COI or not, I have some faith that they are editing properly, and I always appreciate their openness. Finally, hey Jimbo, how are things? Hot down here in Alabama. We're having a little pool party tomorrow and you're welcome to drop by. Drmies (talk) 21:57, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Town, What is needed is a secondary source that says "James T. Butts was found guilty/innocent of <insert> and fined/imprisoned for $<insert>" or something. The sources need to have information that is actually about James Butts. I do notice that Police Magazine says that a police officer Chavez was found guilty of forceful questioning, but doesn't say anything about Butts, just about the case in general. It does show that his name is in the case title, but presumably that is because he was the commanding officer. Also, please keep in mind that WP:BLPPRIMARY, specificaly says "Do not use... court records." Your suggestion that it was "artfully removed" (when it wasn't actually) suggests to me that this conversation will not be productive between us. My advice is that you seek input from other editors besides myself. A request for comment is a good way to do this. CorporateM (Talk) 22:06, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

It seems straightforward to me, that when you have a police chief, responsible for the conduct of officers under his supervision, whose department is charged with improper procedure, such that the police chief's name goes on the court case upheld by the Supreme Court, that it merits attention in Misplaced Pages, particularly when the sum total of references (LA Times, Seattle Times, NY Times, Police Magazine, Souter's opinion) point to improper procedure.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 00:06, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

They point to allegations of improper procedure and those allegations are from convicted criminals. If a source like The New York Times said "James Butts led a department that was charged for improper procedure" then we would be in business. However, we can't make assumptions. OTOH, I think there is an acorn here, that we can reasonably assume albeit with poor sources that the lawsuit went on for quite some time and it was not dismissed immediately as baseless or as legal harassment, therefore it definitely warrants inclusion. Additionally, you provided what I could not find myself, which is a proper secondary source that seems to identify the case outcome, which is something we always want to include. Anyways, it is best for you to have this conversation with other editors I think, who are not subject to the same speculation regarding spin or deception. CorporateM (Talk) 00:52, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Incest in popular culture

Hey Jimbo,

Is it just me, or do you find it incredibly problematic that we have a 160KB article about Incest in popular culture with only thirteen references? I mean, I get the point of some discussion of it, but… Christ, this seems like incredibly creepy cataloguing. Sceptre 23:50, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

'Popular culture' = 'unsourced trivia'. Hadn't you noticed? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:21, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

The article in question is worrisome in more than one way. Beyond questions about verifiability and potential uneasiness about incest, the exclusion of Lot (biblical person) from the list strongly implies that the text which Guinness World Records calls "the worlds best-selling and most widely distributed book" is not considered a part of popular culture. --Allen3  00:30, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Heh, I've been banging that drum for other half a decade, Andy. Sceptre 01:06, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

And have you seen the quality of most of those "references"? What a load of.... If it wasn't after 2am here and I was about to go to bed, I'd take it to AfD right now. If nobody has by the time I'm back tomorrow, I will. Anyone willing to beat me to it? — Scott • talk 01:11, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Out of curiousity... is the intention to AFD just this one article due to squick factor, or to go after all of these ...in popular culture articles? Resolute 04:57, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Neither. It's because this list is a colossal heap of unreferenced crap, as Allen3 explains below, and an embarrassment to the project. It's been that way for at least seven years without any sign of improvement. Spartaz has started a new AfD. — Scott • talk 11:44, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I'd rather get rid of most IPC articles, but this one is egregious. Sceptre 05:06, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

"X in popular culture" articles tend to all share a common set of problems. First, they almost always violate Misplaced Pages is not a publisher of original thought by introducing the new and novel concept that X is in some manner an important part of/concept in popular culture. Second, because reliable sources defining the scope and limits of popular culture rarely exist they require the editor(s) creating the article to perform some form of "I know it when I see it" test to determine what is or is not part of popular culture. Third, the way to avoid the second problem is to ignore Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information and crowd source an unbounded list of anything that kinda, sorta looks like X. --Allen3  07:32, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

E.g. Necrophilia in popular culture (...1 reference). DeCausa (talk) 07:48, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I have to disagree here. First this is about pop culture, not history or mythology. "Creepy" is a matter of opinion. Sorry, but it is. I have a few incestual relationships in my genealogy. That is how things work in the real world so, yes, pop culture does reflect that. The best example in pop culture are the two characters portrayed by Patricia Quinn (Lady Stephens} and Richard O'Brien in The Rocky Horror Picture Show. Magenta and Riff Raff are brother and sister and carry on an incestual relationship throughout the film. I believe this is what the category should be about. And yes...this can be sourced.--Mark Miller (talk) 08:45, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Maybe, but that doesn't have a bearing on what's actually in these articles. Allen3 has it right: what we actually have is a crowd sourced list of what people think is an example of "X in popular culture". For it to be retained as an article there needs to be sourcing to RS discussing the topic "X in popular culture"...and that rarely exists. But sometimes it does so it's a question of sorting the few specks of wheat from huge amounts of chaff. But most times these articles are just a huge pile of WP:SYNTH DeCausa (talk) 08:58, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes. it has a direct bearing on what is in these articles. As I said, this is pop culture not history. The article should not be touching on subjects outside its scope. I agree that sourcing is important but seriously disagree that it rarely exists.--Mark Miller (talk) 09:13, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

And just about everything in Misplaced Pages is crowd sourced.--Mark Miller (talk) 09:16, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't follow on the comment about pop culture/history. It doesn't matter what the subject area is, to establish encyclopedic notability and avoid OR/SYNTH the topic needs to be discussed in RS, rather than editors deciding a topic exists and then hitting the internet to find examples.DeCausa (talk) 09:33, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

For example, in a historical context we would write about actual, historical figures only. But in pop culture we write about examples only found in popular culture such as "Game of Thrones" or other significant Pop Culture relationships. It doesn't have to be fictitious, but must be a part of the pop culture phenomenon.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:12, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't think anyone said that "X in popular culture" was a problem because it didn't cover actual peolple/things. DeCausa (talk) 20:00, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree in general, DeCausa, but I suspect that this might ironically be a justifiable in popular culture article topic. Certainly the use of incest is a known trope due to its squick factor (i.e.: Cersei and Jaime Lannister). I wouldn't be surprised if there is a reasonable amount of literature from which to write an actual article. These bare trivia lists are no good, however. Resolute 18:55, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I really agree that "Bare trivia list are no good". I generally don't like those bullet listed pop culture sections. I like fully researched and sourced prose and I prefer it be more along the lines of "Cultural impact" or "Cultural significance" or something along those lines. I tend to dislike the straight trivia listings.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:07, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I've added the following remark at the deletion discussion (addressing Scott):

• "The Beatles' influence on popular culture likewise consists of hundreds of snippets of information and has just 22 citations. Of course you wouldn't have the slightest chance of getting that article deleted, although the arguments you cite here are just as valid there. In reality there's no need to cite most of the assertions here, verifiability is easily accomplished simply by turning to the work cited (a review perhaps, or its own wiki article) and checking that what is asserted for it is matter of fact true. Just as there is a genuinely encyclopaedic article for the Beatles, so is there scope for a genuinely encyclopaedic article for Incest in Fiction. Since you're proposing a total re-write, why not just write it under that article name and allow this one to coexist? "

It worries me that Scott has brought the discussion here. This is the second AfD discussion for that article. I can't relly see what's changed. This time the article is faring badly, Keeps being reverted to Deletes under prompting from Scott. One can surmise that a more sophisticated editor, less likely tolerant of popular list type articles, congregate here at Jimbo's Talk page. I don't think it's quite fair. Can someone suggest a Talk page of an administrator known to be sympathetic to popular articles where I can raise the article in an effort at counterbalance? There is already a scholarly article Transgressive fiction that addresses inter alia the theme of incest in fiction. If Scott feels there should be a scholarly article devoted to incest alone, then I think in the first place he should take the time to write it, or at least provide a stub making it clear the kind of treatment he would wish to see. We can then sensibly debate whether the popular article should or should not coexist. I'm quite clear in mind it should be allowed to coexist. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 19:34, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

• I think you'll find that this discussion was not "brought here", it was started here; nor was it started by me; nor did I file the AfD first. Also, what, exactly, has my being an administrator got to do with any of this? I'll answer for you: nothing. As to if Scott feels there should be a scholarly article devoted to incest alone, I think in the first place he should take the time to write it - no. That's not how it works. — Scott • talk 20:02, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

  Ah yes, that's right about "bringing it here". Beg your pardon. I made no suggestion about your being an administrator. I meant someone likely to have a frequently visited Talk page as Jimbo has. With respect, I'm suggesting that's how it should work regarding the rewrite. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 20:18, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is supposed to be an encyclopaedia. Can you point to any other encyclopaedias that have 'popular list type articles' of the form our article takes? AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:39, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Don't believe I can. That's one of the things that makes Misplaced Pages special for me. An article like The Starry Night (Vincent van Gogh's most popular painting) contains elements of both scholarship and popular culture, and I applaud that and would want to encourage it. I can't believe this has not been debated before. If you want to get rid of all these popular culture articles Andy, then reopen the debate at an appropriate forum, but I don't see why a particular example should be singled out in this way and in this manner. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 19:46, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

It is being 'singled out' as a particularly obvious example of something that doesn't belong in anything describing itself as an encyclopaedia. Or are all the other encyclopaedias wrong to exclude lists of random examples cobbled together for no good reason? AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:59, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

No idea really why it's being singled out. Creepy as far as I can make out, perhaps because it's an easy target? Your guess as good as mine. But it is being singled out is it not? The same points apply just as equally the Beatles article. Yes they are in my view. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 20:18, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Ok, if you think that other encyclopaedias are wrong to exclude such material, what arguments would you put forward for its inclusion if you had the opportunity to make the suggestion? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:28, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

The point is that other encyclopaedias aren't able to provide these kind of articles. Misplaced Pages is uniquely able to and does so. I would like to see Misplaced Pages eventually become a repository of ongoing commentary about the world we live, a digest of social media commentary. Thus I embrace the popular. I notice you oversee at the Strauss-Kahn affair article. You might have noticed I started a "Popular Culture" section there, including in it the recent 2014 film Welcome to New York in the section. It's consistent. But this is not the discussion I came to contribute here. Rather I wanted to express my concerns about this particular article that Scott said he would AfD, whether it was he or not that eventually initiated. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 20:55, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Ok, if you think Misplaced Pages should transform itself into "a digest of social media commentary", make the proposal in the appropriate place. Meanwhile, since it purports to be an encyclopaedia, I suggest we carry on acting accordingly. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:04, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

No, I'm saying the popular should be allowed to coexist beside the scholarly, and I look forward to a time when Misplaced Pages becomes a repository of ongoing commentary (I imagine a store of digital ostraka) but I wasn't implying "transform itself". Off to watch Kick Ass and get drunk. Enjoy the rest of your evening with someone else. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 21:19, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

personal privacy verses free information

Suzannah Lipscomb - I thought wiki was a reporter of reported stories? this persons unreported birth name is being publicized by your website, why is that violation of privacy ok with you? Is this primary location http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/no2010030157.html something you want wiki to be republishing? Do you think investigative reporting is something your project should be doing?

Mosfetfaser (talk) 13:08, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

This is currently being discussed in a thread at Talk:Suzannah Lipscomb, so it would be best for any interested parties to reply there.--♦IanMacM♦ 13:23, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Not really - this is a question for Jimbo Wales- a question , a simple one, about his project - I thought wiki was a reporter of reported stories? this persons unreported birth name is being publicized by your website, why is that violation of privacy ok with you? Is this primary location http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/no2010030157.html something you want wiki to be republishing? Do you think investigative reporting is something your project should be doing? Mosfetfaser (talk) 13:33, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I believe that on both full names and dates of birth we should consider the wishes of the subject as one of several key factors in deciding what to publish. Reasonable requests from subjects should be honored whenever we can, but of course if a full name or date of birth is widely reported in multiple sources (as this one may not be?) it's not reasonable to ask us to omit it. Primary sources should be used with care and existence in a database record of births is not generally sufficient to show that the name is notable in the sense of Misplaced Pages. It can, however, be a nice way to give support to a subject's preferred name, if it is the same as their birth record although reported differently elsewhere. In this particular case - which I have not investigated in any detail - is there evidence that the subject objects? That's relevant.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:37, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Addendum - the reference in this case is not to a birth record as I had originally supposed, but to "found: Maids, wives, and mistresses, 2009: t.p. (Suzannah Lipscomb; Univ. of Oxford D.Phil. thesis) thesis cat. inf. form (Suzannah Rebecca Gabriella Lipscomb; b. Dec. 7, 1978)" If I understand that, it's from the publication data of her D. Phil thesis. That doesn't make it notable, I think, I'm just saying where it appears to have come from!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:40, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

thank you for your comments Jimbo Wales - it is clear that the support is from a primary external not reported anywhere else but wikipidia - sadly - attempting to remove it will get me blocked - Mosfetfaser (talk) 13:48, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

privacy, unreported detail - https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Suzannah_Lipscomb&diff=prev&oldid=610205867 - Mosfetfaser (talk) 13:55, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Replaced by one of your administrators - User:NeilN with the position,If the *subject* objects, then we'll discuss.- so is it the position of your website is publish any primary details about living people and only remove it if the subject objects is it jimmy? - https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Suzannah_Lipscomb&diff=610208508&oldid=610205867 - Mosfetfaser (talk) 17:30, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

1) Not an admin. 2) Yes, we do publish full names and birth dates unless there's a good reason not to. We are an encyclopedia after all. Our articles contain standard biographical details. Have you looked at Encyclopedia Britannica perchance? Full birth dates in their biographies. 3) Discussing it here won't affect article content there. --NeilN 17:37, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

1:User:NeilN - Not an admin - good - 2 - you claim " we do publish full names and birth dates unless there's a good reason not to" - jimmy do you support that comment when the details are from a primary location such as this ? http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/no2010030157.html - is your website supposed to be the primary reporter of that source? Mosfetfaser (talk) 17:45, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I believe I have already given you a thorough answer to the same question.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:56, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

yes - you have, but your website and user Neil do not follow your position - I removed Neils addition again - with a comment of remove primary source - wikipedia is a reporter of secondary details about living people - it will be replaced jimmy - please answer - is is this websites place to report primary personal details about living people from sites such as http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/no2010030157.html Mosfetfaser (talk) 18:00, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

User:NeilN is threatening to ban me - https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Mosfetfaser&diff=prev&oldid=610235794

Jimmy, is is this websites place to report primary personal details about living people from sites such as http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/no2010030157.html - Mosfetfaser (talk) 18:07, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Where did you get the idea a primary source shouldn't be used? "Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Misplaced Pages; but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them... A primary source may only be used on Misplaced Pages to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts..." DeCausa (talk) 18:09, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

So is that it Jimmy? - is that the policy that allows primary reporting of unreported personal details? 18:13, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Sadly I can answer my own question Jimmy, although you have good intentions you are unable to implement them on your website - I predict that because you do actually care that one day you will disown this site Jimmy - Mosfetfaser (talk) 18:23, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

To add: it's subject to WP:BLPPRIMARY: "Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses." DeCausa (talk) 18:26, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes. See Talk:Suzannah_Lipscomb#Date_of_Birth_per_WP:BLPPRIMARY. JoeSperrazza (talk)

Also see User_talk:MdeBohun#WP:OTRS_regarding_Suzannah_Lipscomb_Date_of_Birth_and_middle_names. JoeSperrazza (talk) 22:25, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I think that the whole idea in a nutshell is power: the more power someone has, the less you're allowed to know about them; the less power you have, the less you're allowed to say. This is an international state that allows surveillance, not sousveillance. Those who come to Misplaced Pages and countless other sites online looking for the advertised inexhaustible well of knowledge ever so gradually need to be re-educated to understand that they must trust their betters to decide what is true, and what they're allowed to ask about at all: to transition from communication to worship. It is a long, slow process, and it may not end until one day their descendants are single cubic feet of neural capacity slotted into the instrument panels of the star-crossing gods. Wnt (talk) 02:17, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps as a librarian I can explain the source of the data: The information is the LIbrary of Congress authority file, the primary repository of publicly known basic data about individuals who have written books. It is used universally for all library cataloging in the United States and, for US authors, internationally by way of the international VIAF file. It is used a as a source in many WP articles--I normally use it to help select the authoritative name and to add the birthdate for all articles on authors which do not have the information. The information is added normally at the time the first book by the author is cataloged, and the information is usually taken from the book itself, or information supplied by the author or publisher. In this case it was taken from the title page and publisher's dust jacket of the book mentioned, and from her doctoral thesis. Since the information comes from sources affiliated with the author, it is not absolutely authoritative, for she and her publisher can use what name they choose, and provide or not provide the year and date of birth. In the past, the information also came from a search of reliable sources, but for over the last 20 years at least, the information is taken just as it is supplied. I do not consider it a "public record" in the usual sense; I consider it just a reliable secondary source for the author's public statement in her published works. In general, I think we would be remiss in not using it. DGG ( talk ) 03:30, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages retaining what pages you visited indefinitely?

I just clicked on the banner and was not at all pleased with m:Data_retention_guidelines. I had been under the impression that Misplaced Pages did not make a practice of tracking user reading history at all. But according to the policy, not only do they retain it 90 days, but they then can retain it indefinitely by "anonymizing" the IP addresses by "encrypting" the "most specific" part of the IP address, a process which they admit may not actually protect identity. Now I understand that UKUSA is the supreme law of every land (even in EU, for all the new consumer-end censorship in the guise of privacy that will only affect the peasants), but how did things go this quickly from the situation where it was supposed to be untracked to the point where it seems entirely plausible for an agency to subpoena all the Misplaced Pages queries for the past ten years and crack the trivial encryption to target one or a million specific users based on their interests? Wnt (talk) 08:11, 27 May 2014 (UTC)