Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:17, 17 June 2014

To discuss conflict of interest problems with specific editors and articles, please go to Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard.

"Any editor who discusses proposed changes to WP:COI or to any conflict of interest policy or guideline, should disclose in that discussion if he or she has been paid to edit on Misplaced Pages." - WP:COI

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Conflict of interest page.

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Archive 1 (Dec 2004–Aug 2006) (old pagename: Vanity guidelines) Archive 2 (August–Sept 2006) WT:ECOI (August–October 2006) (Editing with a conflict of interest) Archive 3 (Oct 2006–March 2007) Archive 4 (March–July 2007) Archive 5 (August 2007) Archive 6 (Sept–December 2007) Archive 7 (Jan 2008–Feb 2009) Archive 8 (Feb–September 2009) Archive 9 (Oct–December 2009) Archive 10 (2010)

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Sources on conflict of interest

• Davis, Michael and Stark, Andrew (eds.). Conflict of Interest in the Professions, University of Oxford Press, 2001.
• Krimsky, Sheldon. "The Ethical and Legal Foundations of Scientific 'Conflict of Interest'", in Trudo Lemmings and Duff R. Waring (eds.), Law and Ethics in Biomedical Research: Regulation, Conflict of Interest, and Liability, University of Toronto Press, 2006.
• Lo, Bernard and Field, Marilyn J. (eds.). Conflict of Interest in Medical Research, Education, and Practice, National Academies Press, 2009.
• Stark, Andrew. Conflict of Interest in American Public Life, Harvard University Press, 2003.

Self-promotion

I'm puzzled by the first sentence in this section:

"Conflict of interest often presents itself in the form of self-promotion, including advertising links, personal website links, personal or semi-personal photos."

The puzzlement is with the last item, "personal or semi-personal photos". My strong impression is that we want people to submit photos of themselves, if they are the subject of an article (submitting to Commons, with appropriate copyrights, of course). But the above sentence seems to discourage such submissions. Perhaps someone could either clarify the sentence, or correct my misimpression of the desirability of such photos on Misplaced Pages.

And while I'm being nit-picky, I'll note that the first and second sentences of the section are quite redundant, which I believe is a undesirable. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 21:55, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

In fact, there is a separate section, "Photographs and media files", with a more mixed message. Perhaps an intra-page link to that section? -- John Broughton (♫♫) 22:01, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

The whole section seemed redundant, so I merged it into another one and left out the bit about images. SlimVirgin 22:13, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, I've never actually seen it happen but I can imagine that someone could take a picture of themselves at a location (say, Mount Rushmore) and upload that picture to the article as a sneaky form of self-promotion. The fact that I've never actually seen this, though, makes it such an unlikely occurrence that I don't think it's worth mentioning in the guideline (and probably should be excluded per WP:BEANS). I can't imagine how else it is self-promotion to upload an image, though.

We do sometimes identify a COI through a person's candid picture uploads. If someone takes a picture of a celebrity at the dinner table eating fried chicken in someone's personal home, there is the suggestion that the image uploader is a friend or acquaintance of the celebrity and thus may have a COI in regards to them. But while that might be worth mentioning somewhere, it's not a form of self-promotion. -- Atama頭 23:08, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

There was a recent case (see contribs) of a user who uploaded selfies and used them to replace images in articles. The images have been deleted, but as I recall the lead image at Thumbs signal was replaced by a picture of the user, and similar edits were made at other articles. Johnuniq (talk) 01:24, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Statement on Misplaced Pages from participating communications firms

WP:Statement on Misplaced Pages from participating communications firms everybody here should be aware of this. I'll note that I had nothing to do with this (though I was informed of their meeting beforehand). I think it's a great day for Misplaced Pages, but of course this is not the end of the Corporate PR COI problem on Misplaced Pages. Rather it is a great step to build on.

I've suggested on the talk page there, that WP:COI include some sort of statement that we encourage PR firms to sign on to this. Minor problem - the UK based CIPR made a similar statement off-Wiki a couple of years ago and it might be seen as disrespect to our UK fellow editors to favor this US based initiative. So I'll give no concrete suggestions now. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:43, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Very strongly discouraged

There is language in WP:COI that I believe works against the purpose of the guideline, though I'm sure that it was meant to increase the strength of it:

"Paid advocates are very strongly discouraged from direct article editing, and should instead propose changes on the talk page of the article in question."

I'll suggest instead:

"Paid advocates should not directly edit articles, and should instead propose changes on the talk page of the article in question."

The very strongly discouraged language underwent a slow transformation from "discouraged" to "strongly discouraged" to "very strongly discouraged" and then was put in bold. While I'm sure this was meant to increase the discouragement, instead it seems to read "something here is missing, you're allowed to do something but we're not going to say what it is."

My proposed "should not" language is the usual, direct way to get the meaning across. It means "It may not be an absolute prohibition for all cases, but you should not do it."

Very strongly discouraged occurs 3 times in the guideline and this suggested change should be made for all 3 cases. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:57, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Are you sure this shouldn't be "double extra very strongly discouraged"? And we can underline it and italicize it in addition to bold text.

Seriously, though, I agree. "Should not" is a fundamentally stronger statement, it's simpler, and cleaner. -- Atama頭 17:27, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Simpler, yes, but whether it is stronger or not is going to depend on the reader's perception of what "should" means. Some readers will see "should not = shall not = must not" and others will see it as "should not = generally discouraged, but allowed in some undefined circumstances." The latter reading is weaker than Very strongly discouraged. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 00:05, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

You have a valid objection here. But what about second issue? Why is "very strongly" is stronger than "strongly"? and why not "extremely strongly discouraged," etc. as someone quipped? If you want to get rid of "some undefined circumstances," then plain forbidden/verboten/prohibido/interdit should work just fine. Staszek Lem (talk) 01:31, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm thinking that both of you are joking a bit, but otherwise I'm not sure I understand. But don't worry. I am not very strongly discouraged. I'll assume you mean "simpler is better." Smallbones_(smalltalk) 02:58, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

(e/c) @Staszek Lem: WP:Ignore all rules means there will always be at least a few exceptional circumstances in which any rule can and should be ignored, so I don't want to "totally" get rid of the implied "allowed in some undefined circumstances." However, we probably do want to make sure that the implication is that this is a very narrow, don't-try-it-unless-you-know-what-you-are-doing exception. I would prefer "extremely strongly discouraged" over "forbidden" because it's more accurate, but I'd prefer "very strongly discouraged" over "extremely strongly encouraged" because the latter just sounds stilted. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 03:01, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

@Davidwr: If you want some slack left, please keep in mind that "forbidden" does have slack; just as with "discouraged", something has to be "strictly forbidden". I guess all this is today's progressive devaluation of emphasis (alternatively, progresssive ADD); compare: 20th-century "thank you" -> today's "thank you very much" -> "thank you so much" . Staszek Lem (talk) 03:32, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I think this will depend a lot on the circles you run in; in my experience, "forbidden" has the dictionary meaning of "not allowed", without any slack, and "strictly forbidden" is a redundant intensifier for emphasis. I agree that "should" has the connotation of a recommendation: it specifies something that ought to be done, or that the subject has an obligation to do, but this doesn't mean the subject will do it. In IETF RFC language, "should" denotes a recommendation. Perhaps making the statement more definitive, with a small exception carved out, would be more suitable, such as: Paid advocates must not edit articles related to their area of advocacy, and should instead propose changes on article talk pages, unless the Misplaced Pages community reaches a consensus agreement to the contrary. isaacl (talk) 08:27, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

The word "forbidden" should not be used, because it's incorrect. When something is forbidden, that means we frankly don't allow it. There are few things on Misplaced Pages that are forbidden; violating a ban, copyright, or other editor's privacy are examples of behavior that is forbidden because doing any of those actions generally leads to an uncontroversial revert and possible revdelete/oversight, and a warning or block. Paid editing, on the other hand, is not forbidden, not at this time at least. Changing the language in this way would take a dramatic step that would require a publicized RfC because it would change the entire approach to how COI is done. Isaacl has it correctly; the word "forbidden" does not "have slack". Look it up in the dictionary for crying out loud, it means "not allowed" or "banned". It's much stronger language than what we have now, which is saying that paid editing is not something that we disallow but the community doesn't care for it, and if you do act as a paid editor prepare for some resistance.

Unless I missed something somewhere? Was there some super-secret RfC done sometime between the discussion at Meta about possibly requiring paid contributors to disclose their affiliations and now? When did we suddenly start banning this behavior altogether? -- Atama頭 15:28, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Don't panic. I suggested the word "forbidden", but I am not a native language speaker. You proved that this word is not good. OK, relax. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:48, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Back to initial observation: "very strongly discouraged" was criticized because it borders with ridiculous. Do we need to throw a tantrum and bang with the fist on the table? I vote to get rid of "very": if "strongly discouraged" is not discouraging enough, then extra "very" will not help, because the most probable violators are either those who did not read the policy or those who chose to ignore it. And I am sure that the latter ones will not even be "super extra strongly discouraged or else". Staszek Lem (talk) 17:48, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Everybody seems to at least agree that very strongly discouraged is bad form - I'll make the changes I indicated above. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 17:00, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Very strongly discouraged ... or else?

Are there any sanctions for ignoring this discouragement? If yes, then what are they? If not, then what is the purpose of all this shouting? Neither boldface nor even large font will help against evil ones. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:03, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

There are no sanctions. If you ignore the prohibitions, you are more likely to get an article that looks like what your client wants it to look like, if you are any good at editing Misplaced Pages. Without empowering our editors and punishing people who ignore the sanctions in the mainspace, this will not be solved, because the cost-benefit of ignoring our meaningless rules is tremendously out of whack. Hipocrite (talk) 18:09, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

In other words, do you agree that instead of super-extra-boldfacing we must think of the ways of enforcement? Staszek Lem (talk) 18:15, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Yup. Hipocrite (talk) 18:19, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

If the changes to the Terms of Service end up going through, we'll be in a position of having teeth that can be used for enforcement. Without it, the odds of getting community consensus on how to proceed are remarkably small. - Bilby (talk) 04:08, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I didn't see this discussion before I reverted the change in policy. The change should be discussed community wide.(Littleolive oil (talk) 17:27, 14 June 2014 (UTC))

I think everybody agrees that it is just changing confusing wording to clear wording - little more than a grammatical change. Please read this section and the one above and state your objections - if any. Until then I'll change it back. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 18:16, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

First apologies for making the revert while this was in discussion. I missed it for some reason. Second, strongly discourage and should not are very different in meaning not just a grammar change. Should not is a definitive statement and it means you cannot edit. Strongly discouraged means not a good idea but possible. In my view the slow progression from discouraged, to strongly discouraged, to should not is a subtle but meaningful change in COI which should have wide community input. We are saying in effect now that a declared COI cannot edit. This is not what the guidleline used to say In the past; a declared COI could edit with care. This is a guideline for which we are using definitive language and suggesting sanctions? I'm not convinced its a good idea and would welcome wider community input.(Littleolive oil (talk) 14:44, 15 June 2014 (UTC))

As I understand it, both Davidwr and I believe that "should" is a weaker, more advisory statement than "strongly discouraged". Typically, in technical standards, "should" means something is recommended but not necessary. I disagree that this change is solely grammatical; the two phrases have different connotations and associated meanings. Accordingly, I do not believe there is a consensus to alter the wording from "strongly discouraged". isaacl (talk) 00:33, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't see this as a simple grammatical change, either, but a slow tightening of the rules. For me, "should not" is a prohibition, "strongly discouraged" is a recommendation. I'm uncomfortable with a significant change like this without more discussion. - Bilby (talk) 14:55, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Advertisements Prohibited

<post-fix of mist-threading due to my overlooked edit conflict>

BTW, talking about "prohibited": WP:COI has a phrase: "The writing of "puff pieces" and advertisements is prohibited." I am pretty sure this is a rather generic guideline. Is it covered somewhere? WP:NOT-ish? Staszek Lem (talk) 18:03, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, at WP:NOT, specifically WP:PROMO which includes "Advocacy, propaganda, or recruitment of any kind" as the first list item, "Self-promotion" as the fourth list item, and "Advertising, marketing or public relations" as the fifth item. All of those would apply ("Opinion pieces" and "Scandal mongering" seem less relevant in this case). Those are all examples of prohibited/forbidden behavior that can lead to uncontroversial reverts, blocks, and other consequences when done by anyone (whether the individual has a verified COI or not). -- Atama頭 18:26, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

WP:COI has a phrase: "The writing of "puff pieces" and advertisements is prohibited." I am pretty sure this is a rather generic guideline. Is it covered somewhere? WP:NOT-ish? Staszek Lem (talk) 18:03, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

On the other hand, what's wrong with "advertisements"? Earlier I was advised to look up a dictionary, so I did now], and I see nothing evil with adverts. The real problem is biased language. An advert may be pretty neutral and factual. "The Company Co. makes goodies for 150 years. Its goodies are ranked Extra Cute by Bite Me magazine survey and earned 2013 "Golden Armpit Award" . Concluding, I think this phrase must be fixed. Some ideas may be borrowed from WP:PEACOCK. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:15, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I answered you with more depth above, but WP:PROMO which is part of WP:NOT does cover this.

Sorry, it was my duplication due to edit conflict. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:58, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

As to the nature of advertisements, by definition an advertisement is never neutral. What you listed above as an example isn't really an advertisement, not as Misplaced Pages defines it. Misplaced Pages considers an advertisement to include "puffery" and is written with a subjective and biased style in violation of WP:NPOV. It's fine to include flattering information about an article subject if that information "fairly and proportionately" represents the significant views of published reliable sources. For example, check out our article on Citizen Kane. The lead of the article makes the bold claim that the film is "Considered by many critics, filmmakers, and fans to be the greatest film ever made," but it supports that claim later in the text of the article so that our neutrality policy is satisfied. I hope that helps clear up some of the confusion. -- Atama頭 18:35, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

re: "I hope that helps clear up some of the confusion". Well, no, it is not. It merely demonstrates that the jargon of wikipedia is not always evident to ordinary people. Since you wrote "not as Misplaced Pages defines it", this definition must be near at hand near at a mouse-click. You wrote: "What you listed above as an example isn't really an advertisement <deliberate snip>" . On the contrary, I happenned to contest several prods/speedies of articles written like my example, and classified as "adverts" by wikipedians. So I reiterate my request: this phrase must be clarified in the guideline, not in the talk. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:58, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

That's not a bad idea. We try to not duplicate information too much; see here, "When the scope of one advice page overlaps with the scope of another, minimize redundancy." But if a quick definition of advertising (borrowing from WP:NOT) helps clarify matters then I think it's helpful as long as it doesn't get too long.

Articles are going to get marked for deletion inappropriately, it's inevitable. When I do admin dashboard stuff, I usually review a number of G11 speedy deletion requests (it's one of, if not the most common speedy deletion request I see) and I tend to decline most of them, either because the info doesn't seem that promotional or because it's easy to remove the promotion without rewriting the whole article. But I don't know if that's because people don't understand what advertisements are, or if it's because they don't understand the G11 criterion. -- Atama頭 19:17, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

The definition of advertising is very simple (from dictionary.com)

ad·ver·tis·ing noun

• 1. the act or practice of calling public attention to one's product, service, need, etc., especially by paid announcements in newspapers and magazines, over radio or television, on billboards, etc.: to get more customers by advertising.
• 2. paid announcements; advertisements.

if you would like this restated in my own words "Any communication from a business meant to increase sales, attract customers, or otherwise increase the value of the business" but that's slightly narrower than the above definition. No matter - "promotion" is a broader term than advertising, and it is prohibited, "marketing" is broader still, and it is also prohibited. "Public relations" is a sub-set of promotion, and it is also prohibited.

So a very basic example of an ad would be - a farmer places the following notice in a newspaper. "Hay for sale, contact Ole McDonald at 555-1212." An example on Misplaced Pages would be when a company employee edits an article on the company and writes "The company sells widgets, doodads, zappers and other products."

So if we could find admins to enforce these rules, we'd be doing just fine. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 03:45, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Multiple accounts

Smallbones cited a provision of this policy with which I was not acquainted, WP:PAY. It is a very good policy but it warrants strengthening, to avoid multiple user accounts advocating for particular articles. I suggest wording saying in sum and substance as follows:

"To avoid undue burden on volunteer time and resources, every article subject should employ only one account."

-- Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 03:04, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Update to reflect new Terms of Use

I've updated the guideline to reflect the new Terms of Use, with this series of edits.

The Terms of Use are automatically policy. Since there were apparent contradictions the ToU automatically over-rides the version in this guideline. I don't think that any of these contradictions were serious, just minor things that became out-of-date with the new ToU. But please check the dif above. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 18:16, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Good job with the update. Just as a procedural point: the statement Terms of Use are automatically policy is a little misleading, because the community has the option of adopting a divergent standard that supersedes the ToU. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 00:01, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I've added a paragraph to clarify that point: "The terms of use express the default position. Individual projects may create their own policies to strengthen or reduce the default requirements (see Alternative paid contribution disclosure policies)." SlimVirgin 00:04, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I've add a sentence taken from the ToU FAQs Smallbones_(smalltalk) 00:20, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm puzzled by how the terms of use relate to the English Misplaced Pages. The terms of use describe the default position, according to the Foundation, but each project can have its own policy, including that no disclosure is necessary (see Commons, for example, which is supporting a no-disclosure position). A lot of projects may not have any COI policies, so the terms of use express the position for those projects.

But we do have this guideline, so is this guideline our default or the terms of use? If the terms of use is the default, we have a contradiction on our hands, namely between (a) direct article editing is very strongly discouraged (this guideline), and (b) all you have to do is disclose on the talk page or in an edit summary (the terms of use). SlimVirgin 16:47, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

My presumption is that the two merely combine rather than conflict. Actual editing is still very strongly discouraged but now disclosure is mandatory, for a (hopefully) minor edit, or even for just a talk page comment. We may need to 'ratify' that presumption with an RfC. Ocaasi 16:53, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

An RfC is probably a good idea, but it will be difficult to find precise wording. We need to ask whether the English Misplaced Pages requires disclosure, and if so to what extent and in which circumstances (only when engaged in direct article editing or also when engaged on talk, policies and elsewhere?). And how does this relate to asking about the bright line (if at all)?

In the meantime, I wonder whether our default is the terms of use or this guideline. The terms of use don't say that projects must introduce a new policy, simply that they can have a separate one. Before the terms of use, this guideline said of disclosure:

• "When investigating COI editing, be careful not to reveal the identity of editors against their wishes. Misplaced Pages's policy against harassment takes precedence over this guideline."
• "Paid advocates are also advised to disclose their conflict of interest."
• Then there was an advisory section, "Declaring an interest," which ended with "Do not publicly declare an interest if this could put you at harm in the real world, e.g., from stalkers."

I'm assuming that, prior to the conclusion of any RfC (which will take several weeks, at least, to prepare and be closed), the above is still our default position. SlimVirgin 17:47, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. We previously had a policy, but we have never reached consensus as a community to "adopt an alternative paid contribution disclosure policy." As such, where our old policy was at odds with the TOU, I would argue the TOU governs until such time as we adopt an alternative paid contribution disclosure policy. Specifically, "Adopting an alternative disclosure policy requires consensus, consistent with the project’s past practice and local understanding of what consensus is." You appear to state, above, that it would take several weeks to reach consensus per past practice - as such, we have no alternative disclosure policy, and the TOU governs where there is disparity. Hipocrite (talk) 18:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• @Smallbones: Please stop making changes to this policy unilaterally. Please propose changes and seek community consensus. Two changes in a row now have received criticism. You need to stop.--v/r - TP 17:59, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• One of the changes that concerns me is "Paid editors are required to name their employer, client and related affiliations for each paid edit." First, that seems to contradict the "very strongly discouraged" advice about avoiding direct article editing, and leaves the guideline looking less clear than before. Second, it's very intrusive. The previous version said: "Paid advocates are ... advised to disclose their conflict of interest." I don't think it's our business to know who exactly is paying someone. That they declare a COI is arguably enough. SlimVirgin 18:12, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. A user is required to disclose those things with respect to any "contribution," they are strongly discouraged from actually editing articles (if they were to, in fact, edit articles, they would be required to disclose). We are, in fact, per the TOU, allowed to know exactly who is paying for the edits. If you feel the community disagrees, seek consensus for an alternative disclosure policy. Hipocrite (talk) 18:18, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

m:Terms of use, "A Wikimedia Project community may adopt an alternative paid contribution disclosure policy. If a Project adopts an alternative disclosure policy, you may comply with that policy instead of the requirements in this section when contributing to that Project." We have a COI policy addressing this issue with community consensus. Smallbones changed it unilaterally without consensus.--v/r - TP 18:26, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

We have not adopted an "alternative disclosure policy." Hipocrite (talk) 18:34, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, we have, it's at WP:COI and it said, prior to Smallbones's no-consensus change, that disclosure was strongly encouraged. "You should provide full disclosure of your connection, when using talkpages, making edit requests, and similar." That is our policy on disclosure which the WMF Terms of Use allow to supercede their own and Smallbones has unilaterally changed without consensus--v/r - TP 18:39, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

No, we have not. First of all, "An alternative paid contribution policy will only supersede these requirements if it is ... listed in the alternative disclosure policy page." This policy was not listed on the page in question. Of course, since the page in question is free to edit, you could list it there, but there is absolutely no evidence that this guideline was approved as a policy by "the relevant Project community." Hipocrite (talk) 18:54, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Says who? Three editors a consensus does not make. You, Smallbones, and figureofnine do not make a consensus to demote this policy nor change it.--v/r - TP 18:58, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

This page was never a "policy," it was always a "guideline." Do you not know the difference between a policy and a guideline? Hipocrite (talk) 18:59, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

You're conflating English Misplaced Pages definition of policy with the wider world. The definition of a policy is "A policy is a principle or protocol to guide decisions and achieve rational outcomes." This "guideline" is a policy in the literal sense. This is simple, if you want a change, I'm not opposed to change. Simply start a RFC and gain consensus instead of Smallbone's underhanded insertion when he thought no one was looking. If you three are so confident in you're changes, that should be easy.--v/r - TP 19:01, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Hipocrite, this is not a disputed guideline just because one or two people don't like bits of it (most of us don't like bits of most policies). As for the policy/guideline distinction, there's no reason to assume that the Foundation is using the word policy in the distinctive way we use it on the English Misplaced Pages. By policy, they simply mean guidance that has consensus, and the guidance on this page regarding disclosure is the closest thing we have to consensus right now. SlimVirgin 19:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't care about one or two bits - it's disputed because you lot are edit warring over it. There's also no reason to assume the Foundation is not clearly aware of the distinction between policy and guideline, given that we are the highest traffic website they host, and the majority of their movers and shakers come from here and all. Who from the foundation told you that "By policy, they simply mean guidance that has consensus," or is that just your personal opinion of what they think? Hipocrite (talk) 19:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

PS: I note that m:Category:Global_policies makes it clear that meta understand the difference between "Policy" and "Guideline." Hipocrite (talk) 19:22, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Then hold on RFC about whether an English Misplaced Pages guideline does not meet the threshold of the Foundation's requirement for a 'policy'.--v/r - TP 19:11, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Do you believe it needs consensus to be a policy, or consensus to not be a policy? Hipocrite (talk) 19:12, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I believe it needs consensus to change.--v/r - TP 19:13, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Then there's no dispute - since it has been a guideline since forever and a day, you submit an RFC to have it upgraded to policy. Hipocrite (talk) 19:15, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I have nothing to change, I'm satisfied with the status quo.--v/r - TP 19:16, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm glad we all agree that this guideline is not a policy, and thus cannot be a policy that overrules the TOU. Hipocrite (talk) 19:18, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

You must be mistaken, I see we all agree that the current wording of our long standing standard for disclosure is that it is strongly encouraged. You clearly show no interest in starting the community-wide discussion needed to change that.--v/r - TP 19:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Your community standard has been overruled by the TOU. Disclosure is now required. Hipocrite (talk) 19:22, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Round and around we go then? You can open an RFC or not, I don't care. Wording isn't going to change until you get a consensus.--v/r - TP 19:29, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I haven't changed any wording in this inapplicable guideline except to switch "edit" to "contribution." It's you who is furiously reverting. Hipocrite (talk) 19:31, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Furiously? LOL. It was so quiet around Misplaced Pages while you were on your break. Welcome back.--v/r - TP 19:32, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Hipocrite, policy is not what is written on the page. It is what is enforced and respected. Any editor on the English Misplaced Pages trying to enforce "Paid editors are required to name their employer, client and related affiliations for each paid contribution" would run the risk of being blocked under WP:OUTING. So the wording you want to add to this guideline, or want to assume is now policy, is highly problematic and would almost certainly not gain consensus. SlimVirgin 20:13, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

A paid editor who failed to disclose those things also runs the risk of being blocked under the terms of use, true? Hipocrite (talk) 20:20, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

But blocked by whom? I'd be surprised if any admin on the English Misplaced Pages would do that. I can see an admin asking an editor to step aside if there's an obvious COI, or blocking a COI editor who had become disruptive, but I can't imagine anyone insisting on full disclosure or else. SlimVirgin 20:54, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Options

We have several options:

1. do nothing and continue to accept this page as our guideline;
2. hold a quick RfC to ask that the advice on this page about disclosure – "that paid editors are advised to disclose" – continue to be our guideline (or "policy" within the meaning of the terms of use), until further notice;
3. in conjunction with (2) or alone, start a discussion about holding a longer RfC asking whether the English WP is willing to ratify that part of the terms of use, and if not what it proposes instead;
4. gain consensus to add a sentence to WP:OUTING, which is already policy, that "Paid editors are advised, but not required, to disclose their conflict of interest."

Of these options, (4) would be the easiest, because it involves adding one sentence to an already established policy. We could then add that section of the policy to the meta page at Alternative paid contribution disclosure policies, which would satisfy the Foundation's requirement that disclosure policies be listed there. SlimVirgin 20:17, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I oppose 4, as there is no consensus to modify our policy in such a way, and certainly just "add a sentence and call it consensus" is not enough to codify as an APCDP. Hipocrite (talk) 20:20, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm supportive of 2 or 3. A discussion is needed. The lack of one would only continue to embolden both sides of this debate.--v/r - TP 20:22, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

The ToU update applies to Misplaced Pages until we decide to change it. We should change this page (the COI guideline) for now to reflect the reality of the ToU requirements, and move forward with an RfC to determine if we want an alternative. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 20:27, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

The COI guideline is our local policy regarding the ToU. The rest is just wikilawyering over the local ENWP status of a guideline versus a policy. This wouldn't be in doubt to anyone outside of this project and I certainly couldn't imagine that the WMF had any forethought to ENWP's 'special' treatment of guidelines when they wrote the exemption. Again, I dare anyone who disagrees and seeks change to open an RFC and ask the wider community. I'm not opposed to change, I'm opposed to underhanded sneaking insertion of material into the COI policy.--v/r - TP 20:33, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

No. The WP:TOU is policy. Obviously the TOU knows the difference between guidelines and policy, since to specifically refers to guidelines and policy in "may further limit paid contributions or require more detailed disclosure" and then goes on to say only a policy (after an RfC and which is properly listed) may adopt an alternative disclosure requirement. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:55, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Let's avoid distinctions between "guidelines" and "policy"; they're wikilawyering. In fact, we don't even need to use those words: we can use "rules" instead. As you said, the ToU rules override the COI rules until English Misplaced Pages adopts a rule specifying the reverse situation. In the meantime, I would like it if the COI rules are consistent with the ToU rules, so that we don't confuse people. Our goal should be to settle this debate over the (temporary) wording of the COI rules, and then to have an RfC on what the rules should be. How can we do that? {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 21:07, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

We can't, I don't think. The terms of use directly contradict the guideline on two key points: (a) the terms of use allow direct article editing with disclosure, where the COI guideline "very strongly discourages" direct article editing regardless of disclosure; and (b) the terms of use require detailed disclosure, where the COI guideline advises only that the existence of the COI be disclosed, and does not require even that. SlimVirgin 21:11, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

The TOU allows guidelines to be more restrictive regarding editing, so your a) is a non issue, at present. Your b) is also a non-issue, at present, if this guideline details no specific form of requirement for disclosure because the WP:TOU does state a form (so they don't conflict). Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Alan, my point was that if we accept the that terms of use override this guideline (for now), then we are accepting direct article editing with disclosure, and that the required disclosure be seriously privacy-violating. We can't pick and choose (now, without an RfC) which bits of the terms of use to allow to override the guideline. It's all or nothing (for now). SlimVirgin 21:34, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Seriously privacy violating? How so? No one has to disclose anything, just as no one has to be NPOV, as long as they don't edit the article (The TOU does not force anyone to edit an article). Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:38, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

As for your first point paid direct article editing without disclosure is against the TOU, it's also strongly discouraged, by this guideline, for someone with a COI to edit articles directly. There is no conflict there. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:46, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Alan, the terms of use require paid editors to disclose their employers, clients and affiliations for all their paid contributions, not only article edits: "you must disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation."

So it would no longer be enough for someone to say on a talk page "I have a COI here, so I won't edit directly. I just want to make a suggestion." According to the terms of use, they would have to tell us exactly who was paying them. But no one would enforce that on enwiki, so I don't see how it can become policy. SlimVirgin 21:48, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Only if they are being paid (not other COI). Moreover, it is doubtful that such a disclosure (as you describe) would not be deemed "in the spirit" (its the proposal that will disclose much of the rest) unless it gets much more involved than what you said and seriously pushes the envelope of conduct problems. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:59, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Why doesn't someone simply ask the Foundation whether this guideline is the "alternative policy" mentioned in their TOU? I was thinking that it might be, until I saw the "alternative policy" page to which SlimVirgin linked. That says to me that this guideline is not in fact the alternative policy contemplated int he TOU. But if there is any doubt, and there clearly is, just ask the Foundation. Coretheapple (talk) 21:30, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Some editors here seem confused. The ToU are not negotiable. Reality on enWP is defined by WMF unless we enact policy otherwise (that is explicitly what the ToU says in the relevant section). WP:COI is only a guideline. We have tried several times to enact a COI/paid editing/paid advocacy policy and failed every time. So yes, the ToU overrides this guideline until we make our own COI policy. My suggestion would be to copy the section from the ToU and paste it into the guideline, adding and taking away nothing, but introducing it by saying that "The following is copied from the WMF Terms of Use which govern everything that happens on Misplaced Pages. This text is presented simply for ease of reference". If anyone tries to revert that, refer them to ANI for vandalism. Which I may do, and start doing... Jytdog (talk) 22:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Question! Is anybody aware of the enWP community, or the WMF, enforcing disclosure or banning someone for violating the "Paid contributions without disclosure" clauses of the ToU? Asking for actual examples, ideally with difs. Thanks! Jytdog (talk) 22:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Jytdog, I completely endorse this line of thinking. I've been trying to say something similar here already. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 22:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Jytdog as well. However, even though the TOU is policy, it is not reflected (so far as I know) in any existing policy, and it appears to be contradicted by this laughable, flabby piece of non-paper that we call a "guideline." I agree that we should cut and paste from the TOU into this guideline. Coretheapple (talk) 22:14, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Reminder

It's at the top of this page, but I think that editors need to be reminded of this. The COI guideline says "Any editor who discusses proposed changes to WP:COI or to any conflict of interest policy or guideline, should disclose in that discussion if he or she has been paid to edit on Misplaced Pages." Coretheapple (talk) 22:16, 17 June 2014 (UTC)