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additional material deleted

I removed this material just now with edit summary which explains reason for removal: "remove additional sherwood personal material - please repost this on sherwood personal article - Stolen Honor is article is not about Sherwood, per se but other article is". ] 17:34, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

While Sherwood shared in a group Pulitzer for investigation of a fund-raising scandal involving a Vatican cover-up, the neutrality of his reportage has been questioned. In 1992 the PBS program Frontline examined Sherwood's book Inquisition, which claimed to be an independent investigation of the Reverend Sun Myung Moon. During that investigation, a letter surfaced in which James Gavin, an aide to Reverend Moon, stated that he had reviewed the book before publication, and suggested revisions that Sherwood had promised he would incorporate before the final manuscript went to the publisher. Sherwood had previously worked for the Washington Times, owned by Moon and the Unification Church.

I don't have too much of a problem, except what is the criteria for removing content of a central figure on another page, i.e. Glenn Smith on TfT and John O'Neill on SBVT?? I would suggest looking at either or both criteria to set policy rather than on a case-by-case basis:

1. Person has a significant amount of information that would go beyond a mere stub.
2. Person is known for any significant reason beyond founding the group.

Just a thought. --kizzle 17:40, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)

Feel free to make John O'Neill and Glenn Smith pages. This in fact, is the right way to go. Also, the infor which should go in on the personal pages ias all the personal flaws and foibles. They must go there so that any tit-for-tat edits and rebutals do not glog up related pages. This is the rule that was intsituted at TfT and which get rebuttals off that page: TfT argumwents are about issues relating to GWBMSC and for that reason are shunted there. Same thing here. Sherwood persomnal issues are about Sherwood himself. Glogging SH is POV edits such as Gamaliel is demanding is farcical. ] 17:57, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

If this stuff on Sherwood goes, all of the info on Sherwood should go, including the "decorated Vietnam veteran" and "pulitzer prize winner", as none of that relates to SH either. You can't keep the good Sherwood info and then ship off the Moonie stuff to another article. ] 17:44, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Gamaliel, you are totally off base again. A limited about of personal detail is fine as it helps segue the atricle flow in a rational manner. You are simply trying to inject "moonie" accusations here to discredit Stolen Honor itself. Frankly, the more you edit, the more it;s clear that your bias is the soruce of conflict. ] 17:53, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

No matter how many words you put in bold it won't change the fact that you are sugarcoating Sherwood's background by including only positive things about him like his pulitzer and his Vietnam service and excluding negative things about him like his moonie connections. ] 17:59, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The "Tom Ridge" connection is included at JML's insistance - as it tends to show Republican connections - a valid point to raise in a partisan race. The "moonie" accusation is a more generalized slur and belongs only on personal page -if anywhere. Also please note for the record that Gamaliel (see above) expressly calls the "moonie" connection a negative. This is precisely what I have said Gamaliel is up to: trying to insert POV material to drag down Sherwood and with him, the validity of the documentary itself. POV bias laid bare! ] 18:00, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Way to go Perry Mason. ] 18:12, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

By saying to exclude all the Information, Gamaliel is attempting to INCLUDE POV stuff? Lyellin 18:17, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)

I thought the key point of the passage about Sherwood's book was not that he had ties to the Unification Church, but rather that, while purporting to produce an independent investigation, he was actually giving the subject of the investigation prior review of the text, and even making changes requested by the subject. This violation of normal journalistic procedure is relevant to his credibility. JamesMLane 18:53, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

JML, if (and only if) you can make a rational case for journalistic flaws, provided that there is a genuine - and reported on - issue there, then it would be enough to detail that issue on the personal page and have a one or two sentence pointer link to that page. Personal problems belong on the personal page. I am simply amazed at how you are disregarding the very principles you've previously insisted on regarding segregation of material. Frankly, you are simply trying to muck things up here. This is the lowest you have ever stooped. ] 18:58, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I would like to share the following information which Rex just left on my talk page:

If you restore that text again, I am going to file an RfA against you. Rex071404 19:16, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

He is, of course, referring to the text discussed here, which he has currently reverted five times in about 2-3 hours. I assume that, if it comes to the RfA he threatens, I will have witnesses that the issue had not been "already been debated and resolved", as he claimed? -- Antaeus Feldspar 19:37, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Rex just makes it up as he goes along. Let him file, there's already two open RfAs against him. It'll just save us the trouble of filing the third. ] 19:42, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sherwood information in Stolen Honor article

As the prior talk page (see archive ) and my edit summaries have made clear, the personal information for Sherwood belongs on his personal article, not in the Stolen Honor article. ] 20:36, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The article is about the documentary. The documentarian in question has been praised for past efforts, and he has also been criticized for violations of journalistic integrity. That is relevant to the documentary. The information which is personal, rather than professional, is the information you keep putting in about the documentarian being an executive vice-president of the WVC3 group and the like.

No matter how much you claim that "the prior talk page" and "my edit summaries" "made it clear", as much as you claim the issue "has already been debated and resolved", these claims are not true. Continuing to make false claims simply establishes further that you have either no intention or no capability to participate in Misplaced Pages in good faith. -- Antaeus Feldspar 21:00, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Feldspar, your bad faith is evidenced by the title change you made here ] 21:20, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You are coming late to this dialog. This core group of editors has already discussed this and as evidenced by the treatment of a number of articles - not just this one - the apporpriate place for the additional material is the personal article page for Sherwood himself. Frankly, I am beginning to think you hate "moonies" or something and are hoping to slander Sherwood by association. ] 21:18, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Either that, or you were acting in bad faith to call it "personal" information in the first place. I have changed it again, to something more accurate.

Yes, I am coming late to this dialog. This is presumably why you believed that if you falsely asserted that the issue had "already been discussed and resolved", that I would not know better. Now you are asserting that the "core group of editors" has already resolved that the place for "the additional material" is the personal article page for Sherwood.

Firstly, given your unwillingness or inability to represent others accurately, I feel no reason to accept your representation that the "core group" has settled the issue for all articles. Secondly, by grouping it all together as "the additional material", you are obscuring the fact that some of the material (mostly that which you yourself added) is purely about Sherwood the person, and some of the material (including everything that I have added) is about Sherwood's record as a documentarian. Falsely describing it all as "personal" information that should go in the personal article does not resolve the question.

Finally, your accusation that I "hate 'moonies'" is laughable. Do you have any evidence for this? Any particular reason you're ignoring the very logical reasons I've presented why the quality of a documentarian's work is relevant to a documentary, in favor of your unsupported theory of a prejudice against "moonies"? It doesn't matter if it's the Unification Church, the Roman Catholic Church, Citibank, the Oddfellows, the ACLU or the Flat Earth Society. If a journalist says he's doing an "independent investigation" and then it turns out that the topmost levels of the organization he's "investigating" had access to and any amount of editorial veto power over that "independent investigation", then it says something about that documentarian's work that is relevant to any future "independent investigations".

You saying this "given your unwillingness or inability to represent others accurately" shows that you are off base here. The article is about the documentary. There is no "others" (as in person) at issue in this article. ] 22:58, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Then what about John O'Neill on SBVT and Glenn Smith on TfT? Do we take off all personal info about them as well? --kizzle 23:29, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)

Oh, and Rex? There's a thing called the three revert rule. Please abide by it. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:32, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Does not apply when reverting overt vandalism, which is what your repeated injection of inappropriate content is. ] 22:56, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, could you cite the exact text that states that more than three reverts are allowed to revert overt vandalism. AlistairMcMillan 23:12, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Firstly, Rex, I am sure you would like to believe that you are the sole determiner of what is relevant to this article and what is not. However, your merely wishing to believe it, pretending to believe it, or even actually believing it, does not make it fact: there are others such as myself, such as James M. Lane, such as Gamaliel, who do not agree with you about what is relevant to the article. These are the others whom you misrepresented when you asserted on my talk page that the issue "has already been debated and resolved".

Now even giving you the benefit of the doubt that you actually understood this, and were saying something along the lines of "We are not the issue here, and should not be under discussion; we should confine our debate to the article subject itself," well, I can only point out that you violated this yourself with your bizarre accusation that I must hate the Unification Church, since that is who Sherwood worked for and whom he chose to do an "independent investigation" of and whom he turned over some measure of editorial power to.

Finally, do you have some basis for classifying an edit made in good faith that you do not happen to like as "overt vandalism"? Besides, of course, your assertion that the page as it stands represents a group consensus, an assertion which we have already determined to be false. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:53, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The issue has been resolved. Fishboy tightened the offending section of text. I have tweaked Fishboy's edit. I am ok with this now, if the others are too. ] 23:38, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You do not have the authority to declare that the issue is "resolved". -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:04, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Nor you, to dominate or inject POV edits. ] 00:15, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

If you can explain where I got the power to "dominate", I'd be interested to hear it. It'd be a bummer if I was omnipotent and everyone forgot to tell me. As for POV edits, very well. I'll continue my unbroken record of making only those edits to this article that add more relevant information. -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:43, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

While you may consider your POV vandalism "relevant" it does not belong here. Your anti-Sherwood information belongs on the article page that deals with Sherwood. This page deales with the Stolen Honor documentary and only slightly with Sherwood himself. ] 01:01, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, I like the Fishboy version. I don't mind a wording tweak to imply that no one has suggested the contract is improper, but I do think a whole sentence (as in Rex's) is a bit heavy stylistically. Wolfman 02:09, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes, if someone found a way to integrate that information into the wording, I would not object. However, the idea that a sentence should be inserted to defend Sherwood against claims that no one has made, while sentences that describe claims that have been made about his journalistic work are not relevant because they are about Sherwood, is inconsistent on the face of it. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:21, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sounds ok I guess, but if we don't stop the sockpuppet vandal Sahara then we won't have a stable base to build on. Will someone please inform Sahara that Fishboy, Wolfman and Rex071404 are in essential agreement which does not include the text which keeps getting injected (see edit history). ] 02:12, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Jam it up your ass. I'm not in agreement - and you expect anything from me while you're still calling me a "sockpuppet vandal". Yeah...right. Sahara 02:15, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sahara, any simple review of your edits reveals that you appear to be a sockpuppet. This edit by you makes it clear that you are well versed in proper formatting of wiki links. Such skill is not does not develop in just (7) edits, as yours appears to have. Also, you have only 13 edits total, all but one relating to this article and all in the last 45 minutes. Also, while you may think it's funny to tell people to "Jam it up your ass" or to call them a "nazi" in your edit summaries, I do not think it is. On the other hand, on the outside chance you actually are a bona fide new user, I am happy to start over with you. To start over, please join the in progress dialog here and stop the insertion of that text unless and until you get group consensus. ] 02:25, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I guess you could say I'm "well versed". I've made a handful of contributions as an anon, anyway, and I've been browsing pages for a few days. And my edits are all in the last 45 minutes because I only registered the account today. If you are actually willing to dialog with me and stop simply trying to censor opinions you don't agree with, then fine - I'm happy to talk. Sahara 02:29, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Don't worry about it. Rex accuses many people of being a sockpuppet. --kizzle 04:09, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)

Kizzle don't stoke the flames. Gamaliel and I have reached a mutually acceptable version. Please see if you are ok with what's in there now. If not please comment here. ] 04:28, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Personal attacks by Sahara and Rex

Sahara has called Rex071404 "nazi boy". Rex has reciprocated by calling Sahara "sockpuppet vandal". All these comments are improper under the policy of no personal attacks. It's Sahara's first day on Misplaced Pages, but Rex, you've certainly been around enough to know better. A mere ability to wikilink is no proof that a user is experienced. In any event, Misplaced Pages allows the creation of multiple accounts as long as they're not used for improper purposes, e.g. voting more than once. For example, if some other user chose to set up a different account name for editing political articles, so as not to have you engaging in your ususal practice of namecalling, threatening, and leaving diatribes on other people's talk pages, that would be permitted. Although you frequently cry "sockpuppet", you toss around allegations of vandalism even more freely. You've been told already that the term "vandalism" means something other than "disagrees with Rex". As is stated on Misplaced Pages:Vandalism#What vandalism is not, even a violation of the NPOV policy doesn't render an edit vandalism. Your listing of Sahara on Misplaced Pages:Vandalism in progress is a blatant abuse. JamesMLane 02:35, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Okay. I'm sorry, I didn't know this was against policy. If he refrains from calling me "vandal" and "sockpuppet", I'll try to refrain from calling him other things. Sahara 02:37, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

One of the curses of dealing with Rex and his ilk is that even if he engages in personal attacks, you aren't allowed to respond in kind. Believe me, I know what a pain it is. I've been putting up with Rex's nonstop harassment for more than two months now. But we have a couple of arbitration proceedings pending against him already, and losing your cool in response to his outrageous provocations only gives him the opportunity to raise his favorite defense, namely that he's under constant attack by a cabal of people who hate him. Try not to use personal attacks to express your justifiable anger with him. Focus instead on the merits of the specific question at issue. JamesMLane 02:51, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The specific (question at) issue being the insertion of too much BIO information about Sherwood into this article. As JML's edits will show, he wanted something in so as to show the Republican/Sherwood nexus. And since JML's wishes are also part of a good Consensus decision making dialog, I agreed to that. With no objections from others, the text went in. Then after others such as Gamaliel demanded even more - basing their demand on the point that the little which was in, mandated more - and after many reverts back an forth, Fishboy stepped in with an edit, which until Antaeus Feldspar and then Sahara stepped in to attempt to re-inject Gamaliel's preferred addtional text, sufficed to meet (more or less) all stated complaints to date. Now Sahara is going against the general consensus of Fishboy, Wolfman and myself (Rex0717404) who more or less agree on Fishboy's last version. At best, Gamaliel's version is supported by himself, Feldspar and Sahara with JamesMLane seemingly sitting this out. Having said all that, I am going to keep reverting that revert edit of Sahara until he stops acting unilaterally and addresses the principle of personal criticisms belonging on the Sherwood personal article, not here. ] 03:23, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Oh, so you and two people is a consensus, and three people (perhaps four) against you is, well, irrelevant? I'm afraid I don't see how that works. Sahara 06:43, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I was "sitting this out" only because I didn't have time to deal with this plus all the other things that called for my attention. I devoted a lot of time to putting together Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#User:Rex071404 3, which I mention here because it arises primarily from Rex's conduct in the course of the dispute about this article. Contrary to Rex's comment below, the dispute cannot be considered "resolved" at this point. The "not up to par" language doesn't seem very good to me. JamesMLane 07:19, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

JML, please offer you concerns here ASAP. It is equally important that your concerns be heard and accomodated by the group as anyone else's. I am very interested in hearing your editorial concerns regarding this article. [[User

Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 16:29, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Read this please

I have added this:

Some critics of Sherwood have contended that his journalistic methods are not up to par - see Carlton Sherwood for more information about him personally.

Hopefully, this will address the concerns of those who think negatives about Sherwood himself must get some ink in this article too. ] 03:32, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Gamaliel's / Rex's edit just now

Please note, the dispute appears resolved. Also note, the previously mentioned .gov web site domain name does not bring up any site, nor did I find it in a .gov whois database. I have deleted that name as a result. ] 03:58, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

A suggestion for actual consensus

I have a suggestion for how we might get a better idea of where consensus really lies. I think we can all agree on two basic principles:

• Not all information about Carlton Sherwood is relevant to an article about the documentary Stolen Honor.

• Not all information about Carlton Sherwood is irrelevant to an article about the documentary Stolen Honor.

My suggestion is that we list out the information, in statement form, that any of us feel is relevant to the article, and discuss them individually. Proposed variations on statements already listed should be listed with their original statement.

Example:

• AA. Carlton Sherwood is a Vietnam veteran.
  • AB. Carlton Sherwood is a decorated Vietnam veteran.
• BA. Carlton Sherwood has won a Pulitzer prize.
  • BB. Carlton Sherwood was in a group that won a Pulitzer prize.

Once the consensus on which statements are actually relevant to this article is determined, it should be easier to come up with a text that represents that consensus. -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:05, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Feldspar, you are beating a dead horse. There is nothing much terribly wrong with the most recent version which arose after Gamaliel's and my last edit. Please go find another article to fixate on. I'd like to suggest John Kerry. There's a plethora of minutia there for you to to hyper-analyze. ] 18:23, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Please see Misplaced Pages:Civility. ] 18:26, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Gamaliel, why don't you see Beating a dead horse? ] 21:04, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thank you, Rex, but as we have seen numerous times, you are not an accurate judge of when actual consensus has been reached. -- Antaeus Feldspar 19:11, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind word "Feldspar". ] 21:04, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)