Misplaced Pages

• Delete per above. --Coredesat talk. o.o;; 02:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Isn't this exactly what lists are for? There isn't a category that exists for this, and, frankly, I don't see how this is different from say List of fruits or List of gay, lesbian or bisexual composers. Also, don't be afraid of red links, my friends--they're a good way of showing what needs to be done. See Misplaced Pages:Lists (stand-alone lists)#Appropriate topics for lists AdamBiswanger1 13:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Please see Category:Tango musicians, which seem to cover this a lot better. Thanks. --Ragib 17:21, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid that musicians and vocalists are two very different things. Also, lists are helpful because they can be annotated and explained, like "So and so released one tango album early in his career". AdamBiswanger1 17:25, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Wao, at least someone here with some knowledge of the subject. Yes, musicians and singer is not an identity. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 20:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Some of these tango singers have contributed nothing - nada to tango music in se, because they followed the Argentine tango conventions of their days to the letter. But their voice and the way they sang invited millions to the world of tango. *Delete; my suggestion is to start a tango singer WP:Wikiproject, if sufficient interest exists. Walter Siegmund (talk) 15:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

• • chico, there is a tango project which can cover this perfectly. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 20:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep as per AdamBiswanger1. A list like this should be treated with care - it is not the only controversial one. I see that a page like Oleg doubles up as a list of every famous Russian called Oleg, and as a redirect page to rulers called Oleg. Calling tango singers "tango musicians" may sometimes be inappropriate (some of them may find it funny themselves) and in the case of my addition to the list, Pyotr Leshchenko - who rearranged texts of Russian romance songs to make them conform to Argentine tango, but never (re)composed anything rather contoversial. Most of the singers who are (also) mentioned as tango musicians seem to have done some acting in films. Perhaps that made them "tango musicians" in the popular mind? Talking about Wikiprojects, I see Tobias Conradi has recently started Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Tango. He IS rather pushy, but hopefully there is no hidden agenda here - a lot of his stuff seems to be getting AfDed at this moment? --Pan Gerwazy 16:46, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. I request you withdraw your last comment, unless you can reveal the hidden link between me and anything related to Tango. Feel free to dig up my contribution tree. --Ragib 17:21, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

chico,do we need a contribution tree? After attacking tango.info now it's list of singers. All within few days. All during or near to a 8 week block of mine, which was reduced. And you say there is no agenda? What a coincidence. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 20:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Tobias, please refrain from such personal attacks. I haven't even read any Tango related articles before I nominated this, while going for cleanup of random articles. And I looked at the other article you have mentioned, which is under afd by someone I have never even communicated with. Whether you are under block or not is not a something I know or want to know. So, UNLESS you can show I am part of the global anti-Tango conspiracy, please refrain from making ridiculous claims. I hope you would retract your comments. As I said, my contribution list is open for you to look and find any relation with Tango. Thank you. --Ragib 21:06, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I was not suggesting that you had something against Tobias, or something against tango. It just seemed like "there was something in the air". Someone got himself blocked, and all of a sudden ... But OK, since at this moment no more than two persons are voting "delete" on both AfDs, my impression looks unfounded and I will have to withdraw the comment.--Pan Gerwazy 23:13, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. --Ragib 23:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

If you really were not invited by any anti Tobias, or anti tango.info wikipedians, then at least at that front it is fine. Since I have read somewhere that a community my recent attackers belong to use other channels of communication, a contrib list does not really help. But I trust you. Anyway, would be nice if you would have contacted some of the contributers or the creator before Afd'ing or at least inform them. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 14:32, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Notability concerns also. The JPS 19:41, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
  • The are all very notable. Seems you are not very familiar with this topic. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 20:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. If somebody is non-notable, take them off the list. There's a reference given in the talk page. Have the delete voters ever read WP:CLS? This is a textbook case of when a list is a good thing. Not all the singers have articles yet (it looks like they'll be along in the future, though) so there's a definitely improvement over categories for a start. How on earth is this meaningless? I am really struggling to understand. There have been tango singers in human history, that's pretty clear, what would be wrong with a list that listed a selection of the more notable ones (notable enough to eventually deserve an article, perhaps) and provided some brief biographical details? This list isn't there yet but there's no reason why it shouldn't. AFD is not cleanup. TheGrappler 20:45, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

And for those who haven't read WP:CLS, a short and unbiased summary is "lists, categories and series boxes have different advantages and disadvantages, and sometimes one, two or even all three of these are appropriate". If you read WP:CLS you will understand why Category:Tango musicians does not in the least make this list defunct, nor is at simple as "the category does it better" - the category does different things better. Does the category do red links, for instance? No! They are for different things and will work just fine side by side. TheGrappler 20:49, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment Consider, though, that WP:CLS is a guideline and that there are those who believe, for sundry reasons, all lists to be unencyclopedic; I'm not certain that I count myself amongst their number any longer, but it should be noted that there are those who are familiar with CLS and, indeed, believe it to miliate in favor of our keeping the article but nevertheless support deletion because they do not believe that the community writ large approve, generally, of the use of lists—to be sure, I am not one of the latter. Joe 05:43, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. We have "Lists of Jews" and other things, why lists or Tango Singers are bad? Lots of people like Tango and these singers are notable to them. What if somebody is researching on Tango music? I can thing of about at least 10 reasons why this list should be kept. Let us not forget that non-notability is sometimes on the eye of the beholder, I'm a Tango-ignorant and know at least 10-15 percent of this list. As the previous voter said, "real" non-notable people should be removed ("real", in this case, should be defined as non-notable within the Tango world), but that's it. Sebastian Kessel 21:13, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - and if you don't have this music you are all invited to Berlin, I can lead you each night to a milonga where you can listen to their voices. Of, course you can also travel to Buenos Aires, but you would need another guide. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 21:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Alternatively, they could come to the "Feesten" in Gent-Belgium , Baudelo Park. Start next Saturday.--Pan Gerwazy 23:13, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - per Sebastian Kessel. Red links are also quite useful as an inspirations for the new articles abakharev 21:47, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Delete Listcruft, this is possibly endless. What merits inclusion? Do you sing it in the shower and get added? What about a "List of people who whistle the 1812 overture while walking the dog" I am sure that is equally as encyclopedic and useful. List of fruits, used as an example in a keep vote above is well defined (the criteria for a fruit is definate) and limited. Keep ridiculous things like this as catagories for the selected few who are notable enough to warrant a full article. Viridae 00:24, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

  Comment Tango is a popular form of music in the Spanish-speaking world. A tango singer is as definable as a pop singer or an opera singer or a rock singer, or any other type of vocalist that you can think of. Let's not crumble in the face of a trick task, which would be defining "tango singer". Also, we need to come to terms with the fact that lists can and will exist peacefully on Misplaced Pages. See WP:CLS. Lists are good. People like them. People learn from them. They are accepted. And this is about as legit a list as any other that exists on Misplaced Pages. Here is a series of axioms for people who like logic:

1. This list is of a useful and notable subject
2. This list can be more than a category (with annotation and explanations)
3. Any list fulfilling these two requirements should be included

Conclusion: Keep the list. AdamBiswanger1 00:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment Lists should always include unambiguous statements of membership criteria based on definitions made by reputable sources, especially in difficult or contentious topics. Taken from WP:LISTS. Change it to "List of notable tango singers" and I would be happy to support its inclusion in wikipedia. The same satandards would apply to me supporting the inclusion of any similar lists such as "List of rock singers". Viridae 02:02, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

How about we write in the first sentence that inclusions must be notable? Something along these lines: "This is a list of notable singers whose main musical genre is tango, or who can be said to be at one time identified as a "tango singer" in sincerity." AdamBiswanger1 02:13, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Better, but can verification be provided that all the names in that list are notable? Viridae 02:21, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunetly not, but usually in these situations the best thing to do is keep the number of red links down, and if too many arise and it looks like a sea of red, then we can talk to someone from WikiProject:Tango to find out which ones are the junk names. AdamBiswanger1 02:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The membership criteria is essentially "they deserve an article". There's a lot of red links but that is basically because this entire subject seems to have been completely forgotten about. Unfortunately, the upshot of "they deserve an article" is that the real notability concerns are decided by WP:MUSIC, but it's inappropriate either to copy and paste that entire definition of notability or to give a link into Misplaced Pages space. As a compromise what I've done is moved the list to "List of notable tango singers" and put in a scary hidden comment (you'll only see it in edit mode) that basically says "put in a referenced assertion of notability, or your entry will be removed from the list". In this kind of list that's the best that can be done - that doesn't mean it's a write-off. It certainly seems to pass the criteria on WP:CLS which are the ones that really matter here. In fact (and as a person who hangs out at WP:FLC a lot I have some experience in this) this must already be one of Misplaced Pages's best referenced lists! TheGrappler 05:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete- per TBC. pschemp | talk 01:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
  • voter admin pschemp probably is only here, because she watches everything I do in WP. I once called this stalking for which this admin blocked me. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 20:39, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
• As was stated above 3 or 4 times, musicians are not necessarily singers. AdamBiswanger1 01:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - per Sebastian Kessel --San Marcos 03:17, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per above; there is a reason we use lists at Wiki. syphonbyte 16:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
• Unmaintainable list, insufficient evidence of notability for current entries. Closing admin should take votestacking into account and discount spurious keeps that Tobias marshalled. Delete ++Lar: t/c 17:02, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm afraid that this is not simply a vote, and all concerns of the "delete" voters have been soundly addressed, if not defeated by myself and others. The questions that face this list are the same as any other on Misplaced Pages AdamBiswanger1 17:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Correct! It is NOT simply a vote, and therefore Tobias's votestacking and the folk who turned up as a result of it, needs to be discounted. You haven't addressed my concerns to my satisfaction, far from it. Correct again, the questions that face this list are the same that face others, but this particular list and its creators, fail to address them successfully. This list would be marginally notable and marginally encyclopedic, even if thoroughly sourced, which it is not. (most lists are not, I comment delete on most lists, but not all) Your argumentatively replying to every comment is not going to work, I don't think. You also might want to check your assumptions about users as well. ++Lar: t/c 17:23, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
      • • hi admin lar. did you vote here because you saw the discussion on my talk? Do you WP:STALK me too like pschemp does? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 20:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
      • I don't wish to offend anyone, and I'm sorry if you object to my watchlisting this page. The fact is that no matter what, if I suspect that someone has submitted an uninformed opinion, I am going to very civilly and maturely challenge it. That's my right- in fact I consider it my duty. If I wasn't so weary from writing out my rationale so many times, I'd be happy to tell you again. I realize that I'm half-obsessing on this AfD, but do you have any specific concerns that you would like me to address so that we can call this process a consensus and not an instance of votestacking? AdamBiswanger1 17:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
        • Go mark (with a reply that the comment is from a votestacked person) all the comments that are from people Tobias notified, that would address one of my concerns, and help the closing admin out a lot (that admin can then evaluate if the comment is just a flippant driveby or a comment that adds to the discussion in a significant way and should be counted toward consensus). The other concern really boils down to this, why is this list on a very obscure topic encyclopedic? Lists of random things are not. Why wouldn't a category do the trick instead? Easier to maintain and a better approach. I only support lists when a clear case is made that the list transcends what a category can do. (for example this one: List_of_European_Union_member_states_by_political_system which adds a lot of information beyond a mere list, it's really an article in disguise) Further, almost every person on this tango singer list is redlinked, meaning that their notability is not even known, much less established satisfactorily (I don't consider the cited sources as verifiable enough to confer notability, sorry) This list, on further reflection, smacks of OR in that the list composers are deciding who is notable and who isn't. ++Lar: t/c 18:19, 13 July 2006 (UTC) PS I take no offense at your watchlisting an AfD, I do that too! My issue is that you shouldn't repeat the same points to try to rebut.
          • Honestly I don't think that the closing admin needs any help, because at the moment it seems to be quite on the side of "keep". That was a long comment with many points, so I'll just state a few unrelated sentences.
            1. Tango is not obscure in Latin America.
            2. Redlinks allow for the creation of other articles
            3. An expert in Tango music can decide which names are too obscure. Or we could just use google.
          • Now as far as your votestacking allegations go, I see a slight bit happening with Tobias alerting fellow editors, but I see no problem with alerting all contributors to the page, which is what I did. Hence the raison d'etre of {{adw|pagename}}. Oh and one more thing. I am very consciously making the same points over and over because, well, they're true. Unless they are addressed by the other party to my satisfaction, I'm not going to stop my line of attack. AdamBiswanger1 18:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
          • My comment was placed because Tobias alerted me. So what? Does it count any less? Are my opinions less important because I didn't have the page in my watchlist and I only found out by an alert user? Tobias was just letting people that potentially cared about the article that they should express their opinions. Mine must have been good enough for two other editors to cite it for their own votes. Sebastian Kessel 18:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep This discussion may have gotten a little too agresive, but the article has improved and seems to be a legitimate list of singers with real qualifications. This list could be improved with creation of articles that address the subjects mentioned. However, that is not a reason for deletion, this list can be expanded and can become a solid article. Yanksox 17:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC)