| Revision as of 20:14, 6 December 2014 view sourceDave Dial (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers13,119 edits →I give up: bullshit← Previous edit | Revision as of 20:17, 6 December 2014 view source John Carter (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users176,670 edits →I give up: For the rest of us who have this page on their watchlist and wonder what is happening here, some sort of clarification of what is being discussed would be more than welcome.Next edit → | ||
| Line 214: | Line 214: | ||
| :I wish you well in life.--] (]) 20:10, 6 December 2014 (UTC) | :I wish you well in life.--] (]) 20:10, 6 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
| ::No you don't. Nor do you care how much time your 'volunteers' have to put in to try and make the project better. Unilateral overruling numerous editors and a month long merge discussion for an article mirrored by the Neo-Nazi Metapedia is beyond the pale. All you've shown is just how much you don't give a fuck. ] (]) 20:14, 6 December 2014 (UTC) | ::No you don't. Nor do you care how much time your 'volunteers' have to put in to try and make the project better. Unilateral overruling numerous editors and a month long merge discussion for an article mirrored by the Neo-Nazi Metapedia is beyond the pale. All you've shown is just how much you don't give a fuck. ] (]) 20:14, 6 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
| :::For the rest of us who have this page on their watchlist and wonder what is happening here, some sort of clarification of what is being discussed would be more than welcome. ] (]) 20:17, 6 December 2014 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 20:17, 6 December 2014
| Welcome to my talk page. Please sign and date your entries by inserting ~~~~ at the end. Start a new talk topic. |
 | He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are SJ, Phoebe, and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is Maggie Dennis. |
 | This user talk page might be watched by friendly talk page stalkers, which means that someone other than me might reply to your query. Their input is welcome and their help with messages that I cannot reply to quickly is appreciated. |
| (Manual archive list) |
Article in the Register
The Register has published another article criticizing the Wikimedia Foundation for not using the $60 million in assets it has, which according to the article is "far more than the Wikimedia Foundation (WMF) needs to run a website." (I say "another" because of articles like this). Do you, Mr. Wales, have anything to say about this? I.e. what is the purpose of the $60 million that the foundation is said to be "sitting on"? Everymorning talk to me 18:45, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- The article is by Andrew Orlowski, someone's whose journalistic skills I can't comment on here. --NeilN 19:07, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- I can. Past experience shows he's got a very long history of attacking Misplaced Pages, often with one-sided and inaccurate or downright untrue claims. He's also got form as an egregious climate change denialist. Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus. Prioryman (talk) 19:18, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- Orlowski used to be amusing. About ten years ago. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:05, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- More diplomatic than I would have put it. :-) --NeilN 20:23, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- Orlowski used to be amusing. About ten years ago. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:05, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for adding the link, NeilN. I must have forgotten to do so myself for some reason. Everymorning talk to me 20:32, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- This one is easy. I'm extremely proud of our financial track record and consider our level of reserves to be prudent and sensible - neither too large nor too small. Here is some typical advice about nonprofit reserves: "A commonly used reserve goal is 3-6 months' expenses. At the high end, reserves should not exceed the amount of two years' budget." How much should my nonprofit have in its operating reserve? For further information from the Wikimedia Foundation, see this question and answer.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:01, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks Jimbo, that's really useful. It's strange that Orlowski, who is apparently a professional journalist, didn't do the basic fact-finding that would have given him those answers before he started frantically hammering his keyboard. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:59, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- Just to expound on what Jimbo Wales said, the document he linked shows the 2014-2015 budget to be "$58.5 million in spending, including $8.2 million in spending allocated for grants". The article linked describes $60 million in reserve which is in line with a 12 month reserve, which is common. Rmosler | ● 22:22, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- Whoever said Orlowski was a professional journalist? He appears to come up with his story before he writes it, then cherry-picks or misrepresents facts to support his preferred spin. This is just more of the same. Prioryman (talk) 10:49, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks Jimbo, that's really useful. It's strange that Orlowski, who is apparently a professional journalist, didn't do the basic fact-finding that would have given him those answers before he started frantically hammering his keyboard. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:59, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- I meant professional in what I consider the original sense, that is, someone who makes their living by means of full time employment in a particular activity. I did not intend to imply anything about the quality of the work carried out during that employment, nor about any ethical principles underlying the execution of it. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:00, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- You allege Misplaced Pages runs no adds, but how about 14,000+ advertisement articles you have? How many more are there]? For example User:CorporateM is an openly payed editor who writes good advertisement articles, yet still advertisements, and get paid for writing them.121.40.91.74 (talk) 19:12, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Example, please? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:00, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- It is important for a non-profit to be able to support its operations for a suitable period if funds dry up for some reason, note also that this figure is for assets - so it includes the servers, any advanced payments, office furniture - and it doesn't take account of liabilities. Orlowski has been attacking Misplaced Pages for years, and has really lost all credibility where Misplaced Pages is concerned. See for example where he implied that only Misplaced Pages editors would want to read Misplaced Pages... (and here for why his Immanuel Kant argument was wrong.) However it might be ethical to go back to the model where the banner is removed the minute we hit our target. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 19:04, 4 December 2014 (UTC).
- The longevity of many very small non-profits (and especially large ones) rely on their endowments and safe investments to operate through tough times. Even minor things like accounting for inflation and increases in the cost of services becomes important when you operate off donations. Immanuel Kant is never someone I'd want to argue with, but his arguments have sizable holes once you pick through the layers. Gosh... David Hume is at Good Article nominations and we are here bringing Kant into the matter! Small world, especially since it is you who is bringing it up Rich! Haha. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:11, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Anyone who wants to know how easy it is to end up with an endowment that loses significant amount of its worth through bad investing can ask Harvard what happened to its endowment causing it to institute a hiring freeze and stop its new science campus plans when the economy imploded and the Great Recession began. The core of an endowment shouldn't be used for day to day expenses, it is a rainy day fund and a source of dividend creation that can subsidize the ebb and flow inherent in normal flows of revenue.Camelbinky (talk) 20:35, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- The longevity of many very small non-profits (and especially large ones) rely on their endowments and safe investments to operate through tough times. Even minor things like accounting for inflation and increases in the cost of services becomes important when you operate off donations. Immanuel Kant is never someone I'd want to argue with, but his arguments have sizable holes once you pick through the layers. Gosh... David Hume is at Good Article nominations and we are here bringing Kant into the matter! Small world, especially since it is you who is bringing it up Rich! Haha. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:11, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- It's typical that the very first reaction here to the Register's article is to demean its writer. The issue many people have with this fundraising campaign is that the ads clearly imply that Misplaced Pages's survival is at stake, when it is not. The ads are clearly deceptive, and may violate laws in some countries. According to this discussion, more than a few Misplaced Pages insiders think the ads are misleading also. Misplaced Pages's survival is not at stake. Costs, mainly for programming staff have doubled while the number of users is steady or even declining. Even if the site had no fundraising revenues, it could easily cut staff and survive for years. Most people are donating because of the content, yet very little of the funds goes to content creators. And there's the issue of the fundraising banners taking up 50% of user's screens. Here's my line-by-line analysis of the fundraising banner, and here's another article on the The Daily Dot. -- Sparkzilla talk! 01:22, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Those who attack the person and not their arguments are not helping the matter, but criticism of Misplaced Pages is a key part of understanding and correcting flaws. Most of us are here to build and maintain the growing encyclopedia and the argument about the ads does deserve some discussion. I have found them more intrusive, but I still think they are a major improvement over donation ads appearing over every article. I'm sure Jimbo is aware of the "humor" that campaign enabled and the WMF moved on from that style. Could the current ads be excessive, yes, but trying new things is an important part of trying to improve. It is probably just not best to do so on this page, at this time. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:36, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- It's typical that the very first reaction here to the Register's article is to demean its writer. The issue many people have with this fundraising campaign is that the ads clearly imply that Misplaced Pages's survival is at stake, when it is not. The ads are clearly deceptive, and may violate laws in some countries. According to this discussion, more than a few Misplaced Pages insiders think the ads are misleading also. Misplaced Pages's survival is not at stake. Costs, mainly for programming staff have doubled while the number of users is steady or even declining. Even if the site had no fundraising revenues, it could easily cut staff and survive for years. Most people are donating because of the content, yet very little of the funds goes to content creators. And there's the issue of the fundraising banners taking up 50% of user's screens. Here's my line-by-line analysis of the fundraising banner, and here's another article on the The Daily Dot. -- Sparkzilla talk! 01:22, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Has the 5P and our !rules become too static?
When is the last time our !rules have been drastically changed, a !rule scrapped, or it's scope fundamentally enhanced or diminished? Despite having IAR and essays deploring instruction creep, we seem down the road towards more bureaucratic mud and a solidifying and codifying of our policies, guidelines, and important essays into "this is how it's always been done, and so it shall always be!" instead of what I always thought our !rules were intended to be- a statement of "this is how we solved this problem last time, adjust this !rule as new consensus finds new problems need different solutions, and adjust this policy/guideline accordingly to assist in the next time being more efficient". Are we stuck in a mode to which Thomas Jefferson was afraid the USA would find itself in- "some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence and deem them like the ark of the covenant, too sacred to be touched". Perhaps we need to do what Jefferson had hoped the USA would do, have a new constitution every so often (more along the lines of modern French history I suppose, minus the whole Nazi collaboration part); in Misplaced Pages perhaps the equivalent would be to open up the main policies in a sandbox to be rewritten from scratch where there wont be those who say "but that's what it has said since 2009!" as an excuse for why some thing can not be changed. But this is just my opinion. I'm sure there will be a lot more. In opposition.Camelbinky (talk) 21:10, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- What changes in particular are you proposing? I do see a general issue that significant change is extremely difficult because the English Misplaced Pages is governed by consensus rather than by majority, and that consensus is difficult to achieve with as varied as the English Misplaced Pages. Are you proposing anything in particular, or just being abstract?
- Is this perhaps a proposal for something along the lines of a Constitutional convention (political meeting)? Honestly, I could and do see some merit to having something like that take place on a fairly regular, if rather lengthy, interval. A little rebellion now and again is a good thing because it tends to make it easier to enact reasonable changes which would be glossed over because of "tradition" or lethargy or whatever you want to call it. Some sort of specific proposal of such a convention might get enough support to make some sort of periodic basic review possible. John Carter (talk) 22:14, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Last such gathering, if not advertised as such, was in London this last summer. A couple of thousand people participated, that's all. A very large number of RfCs added together, could perhaps count a similar number of participants. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:48, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Ah, yes, the meeting of the connected, the monied and the grant-worthy faithful. I couldn't attend because of financial constraints, despite living in the country where it was held. That said, I probably would not have attended anyway because I am a sort-of excluded group, being one of the profoundly deaf who cannot hear what is going on, who get next to no transcripts or sign-language facilities etc. I doubt that I missed anything of note but, please, don't let anyone suggest that Wikimania is representative of anything. From all the things I have read, in relation to many such events hosted around the world, it seems to be more of a fan club, a networking facility, an evangelistic meeting etc. I'm sure that it gives much pleasure to many people but let's not over-rate it. (Still not sure if I am allowed on this page or not - please let me know.) - Sitush (talk) 00:33, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Personally, I think if we were to have a real "meeting" of sorts to revise policy, the optimum place to do so would be here, online on wikipedia, where the discussion could be recorded in the edits and it would be basically transparent, as opposed to personal meetings which rarely are as transparent. John Carter (talk) 00:40, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Ah, yes, the meeting of the connected, the monied and the grant-worthy faithful. I couldn't attend because of financial constraints, despite living in the country where it was held. That said, I probably would not have attended anyway because I am a sort-of excluded group, being one of the profoundly deaf who cannot hear what is going on, who get next to no transcripts or sign-language facilities etc. I doubt that I missed anything of note but, please, don't let anyone suggest that Wikimania is representative of anything. From all the things I have read, in relation to many such events hosted around the world, it seems to be more of a fan club, a networking facility, an evangelistic meeting etc. I'm sure that it gives much pleasure to many people but let's not over-rate it. (Still not sure if I am allowed on this page or not - please let me know.) - Sitush (talk) 00:33, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I would support an on-line convention. My upstream post maybe should have been addressed to the owner of this talk page. Because of the near-impossibility of achieving consensus on any significant change, any major change will have to come with the backing of the WMF. The English Misplaced Pages will never make any major changes in its pillars or policies unless it is pushed. I would strongly encourage the WMF to call for an on-line convention, but with the understanding that consensus does not require super-consensus, or some other set of rules that might really be adopted. More later. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:17, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Physical meetings aren't the place to accomplish anything of this magnitude. It's a little hard to change anything on WP, the decision-making system (which basically requires super-majorities agreeing to do something specific amidst a mass of sometimes contradictory simultaneous proposals) is very conservative — it preserves the status quo. Change happens slowly and piecemeal. The Village Pump works as well as anything — which is to say: pretty much not at all. I doubt much can be done in the way of fundamental alteration of the WP system. It is what it is. Carrite (talk) 04:25, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think it could be doable, maybe, if the approach taken were that there would be multiple "rounds" of proposals, probably more than one variant phrasing for each proposal, gathered and then voted on, with the highest-level proposals, probably for the pillars, first, and then for "core policies," and then policies describing specific applications of those policies, etc., etc., etc. If there were to be, for instance, a month or two allocated for each round, with a period of voting at the end of each round, possibly with some sort of ranked voting system and if necessary run-off voting after rounds if required, it might be doable. Having said that, it might also take up to or over a year to accomplish, and there is a real chance that interest would wane before the process were even remotely finished. But, for the comparative minutiae of the lowest-level proposals, even that might not be necessarily a bad thing. John Carter (talk) 15:59, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Physical meetings aren't the place to accomplish anything of this magnitude. It's a little hard to change anything on WP, the decision-making system (which basically requires super-majorities agreeing to do something specific amidst a mass of sometimes contradictory simultaneous proposals) is very conservative — it preserves the status quo. Change happens slowly and piecemeal. The Village Pump works as well as anything — which is to say: pretty much not at all. I doubt much can be done in the way of fundamental alteration of the WP system. It is what it is. Carrite (talk) 04:25, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
Is Misplaced Pages going to have a Constitution? GoodDay (talk) 06:10, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
On-Line Convention
The original poster, User:Camelbinky, asked when the last time was that our rules have been drastically changed, and whether the five pillars of Misplaced Pages have become too static. In looking over the five pillars, I don't see anything that I would propose be changed. Does the OP propose a change to the five pillars? I can identify several areas where our policies and procedures should be changed, but where we are locked in by the requirement for consensus. The problem is not so much, as the OP implied, that Wikipedians give too much value to how we have done things for several years, so much as that we don't have consensus for what to do differently. Consensus has become a burden. A few areas in which there is dissatisfaction but not consensus include Requests for Adminship (many editors think that the process is toxic, but some think that it has improved, and in any event there is no single consensus proposal for reform), paid commercial editing (some editors think that paid commercial editors should be banned, some think that paid commercial editing should be discouraged and must be disclosed, a few editors think that paid editing is actually a constructive influence), the Arbitration Committee (most editors think that it is too slow, some think that it should be split into subcommittees or meet in panels, some favor some other approach), administrators in general (some think that administrators should serve for a term of years, some think that they should be probationary for one year, et cetera), civility enforcement (some think that it should be stricter, some think that it should be looser, some think that there should be a list of naughty words), and so on. The problem is that we will never get consensus. My first question, for the owner of this talk page, is whether the WMF can intervene, perhaps by calling an on-line convention and specifying that it may change policies by majority rather than consensus. My second question, for the original poster, is whether he or she was proposing anything in particular, or just trying to start a discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:40, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages's dismissal of majority rule in favor of hokey-pokey pseudo-consensus decision making and the absolutely unstructured RFC process is one of its original sins. It's a minor miracle that the site is still functioning after having been based on that shaky and flaky system of governance. Still, at this point it is what it is... Change is going to be slow and piecemeal. Carrite (talk) 17:08, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, majority rule would be great. "Attention followers! The world must know that evolution is just an unproven idea foisted upon us by the godless! Go here and check a box. You don't have to think or reason, just push a button." --NeilN 22:49, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- I pretty much agree with NeilN. WP:CONSENSUS might be a somewhat vague idea but it is superior to the alternative which, on hot topics, is almost certain to result in issues with meatpuppetry etc. You only have to look at caste articles and the "calls to arms" on off-wiki forums to see that. The logical problem is the chicken-and-egg thing: we have policies that are supposedly derived from consensus and those policies are enforced using the consensus argument. - Sitush (talk) 00:07, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- There is a difference between content decisions and site governance. Carrite (talk) 01:07, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Perhaps. Robert has been trundling around with a lot of policy proposals etc in the last few weeks, as well as being involved in some other controversial things that have (sometimes) backfired. I guess this might be a wood/trees situation, where I'm looking at it from close-up and they're looking at it from 20,000 feet/metres/miles/kilometres. - Sitush (talk) 01:11, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- There is a difference between content decisions and site governance. Carrite (talk) 01:07, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- I pretty much agree with NeilN. WP:CONSENSUS might be a somewhat vague idea but it is superior to the alternative which, on hot topics, is almost certain to result in issues with meatpuppetry etc. You only have to look at caste articles and the "calls to arms" on off-wiki forums to see that. The logical problem is the chicken-and-egg thing: we have policies that are supposedly derived from consensus and those policies are enforced using the consensus argument. - Sitush (talk) 00:07, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, majority rule would be great. "Attention followers! The world must know that evolution is just an unproven idea foisted upon us by the godless! Go here and check a box. You don't have to think or reason, just push a button." --NeilN 22:49, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Paid editing not incompatible with Misplaced Pages adminship?
| Per the recommendation of Jehochman, I'm closing this thread down. For the record, my view on the principle is that paid editing is incompatible with Misplaced Pages adminship. As to the specifics of whatever this was all about, by the time I looked at it, the case had already been declined by ArbCom so it isn't relevant to discuss.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:51, 4 December 2014 (UTC) |
|---|
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
Jimbo, in view of the statements you've made on the subject of paid editing, I thought you should be aware of this arbitration request. It seems to me that Arbcom is about to set an unfortunate precedent here. Thanks. ReverendWayne (talk) 15:35, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
Resolute, I haven't looked at your editing history. I think it's better to engage the substance of an argument than to investigate the person who's making it, but I understand that not everyone shares my view. My interest is in defending Misplaced Pages's administrator accountability policy, which has been weakened by allowing an administrator to ignore valid concerns of the community. Arbitration proceedings do provide a place for uninvolved editors to offer their opinions, and you may have noticed that I expressed similar concerns in the case of User:Fæ, with whom I was likewise uninvolved. I hope this satisfies your curiosity to some extent. ReverendWayne (talk) 23:54, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
From WP:ADMINACCT: "Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Misplaced Pages-related conduct and administrator actions, and to justify them when needed." That's the rule that's being broken here. Isn't paid editing by an administrator, even if it's not explicitly prohibited, a legitimate concern of the community? Administrators don't have the option to stonewall for a few months and let the whole thing blow over. And as reading the admin accountability policy ought to make clear, it does not apply only to misuse of admin tools. ReverendWayne (talk) 18:43, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
The request has been declined, but I made this statement right before in case anyone wants to investigate further.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 05:46, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
|
Site bans
"I think a lot of people should be sitebanned for misbehavior and that the community will begin to grow and flourish again when we get rid of people who bring more drama than they are worth. "
This is really a weak argument. We have banned many many people, often for no discernible cause, and often our most productive people. Robust research into reasons for leaving showed that the arguments about the community environment were overblown, certainly those relating to "drama". It is far more productive to work to change the way people interact, than to simply ban them. Banning is a "one size fits all" mentality.
Regarding the recent case I believed that the ArbCom had managed, after much wrangling to put together a ban-free solution, and turned my attention away from the recent case, to find now that some of the more progressive measures have been overthrown by the reactionary ones is a disappointment, but is not unusual. I regret the loss of two potential (and past) assets to the project.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 00:41, 5 December 2014 (UTC).
- Rich Farmbrough, I would like to see a list of ten, or seven, or perhaps even five editors who were banned for "no discernible cause, and often our most productive people". In my experience, the discernable cause is readily visible, and amounts to massive disruption of the encyclopedia. But maybe there are many unjust bans I haven't noticed. Bring the account names forward, so that people of good will can campaign against this injustice you describe. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:24, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Undisclosed Paid Advocacy (UPA) templates and Policy
Jimmy, I have two questions apropos User:Jimbo_Wales/Paid_Advocacy_FAQ. 1)What should happen to content that is the product of UPA (Undisclosed Paid Advocacy)? Perhaps, any UPA prior to the ToS should be grandfathered, like content on Commons prior to tightened rules on using appropriate license tags and the like. And any content created after the ToS banned UPA, that is the product of UPA, be removed through the use of templates like {{subst:Copyvio|url}}/{{Copyvio}}. 2)Are you aware of any significant efforts, since the Terms of Use were changed to bar UPA, to create a specific policy page that says that the product of UPAE, like the product of a copyright violation, should be removed? I don't think anyone's tried to create an equivalent of {{subst:Copyvio|url}} to tag UPA. I'm sure most of the folks who make money performing PAE and UPAE will continue to !vote against such moves, but perhaps Paid Advocates could be excluded from such voting. I thought it worth asking Jimbo, (and unavoidably, his talk page stalkers) and CTA.--Elvey 01:42, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Anything to help deal with the scourge of paid advocates is worth considering. One problem with tagging UPA is that often it is somewhat ambiguous. (Often it isn't, of course.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:24, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Pinged for this discussion. I didn't even know there was a FAQ. As to your question, I don't know the answer. The attitude toward both disclosed and undisclosed paid contributions is extremely permissive, so I don't see the point of working up a sweat about it. Usually when a company dispatches employees or contractors to an article it is extremely obvious, and if dealt with firmly can usually be gotten rid of so that uninvolved editors can be left to edit without harassment. I actually addressed one aspect of the topic on my user page just the other day. Coretheapple (talk) 15:46, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- By the way, Jimbo, having discovered the FAQ I've taken the liberty of adding a paragraph, so as to close a loophole that I've seen mentioned here and there. If it's not what you want, please advise and I will take it out. Coretheapple (talk) 16:30, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm generally in favor of anything that would tend to minimize paid advocacy editing, but I also really dislike all the tags that get left on article pages, sometimes for years after the problem has been addressed (I suggest putting most tags on the talk page). For the most part, the proposed tag would be doing the same thing as the advertising tags or the NPOV tag - so I'll say that there's no need for a new tag.
- That said, there is a need for editors to go clean up the advertisers' (and the paes') messes. Perhaps we could organize Wiki-project:PAE cleanup. There have been a couple of projects that say that they try to minimize PAE problems, but to my reading they've ended up giving paid editors advice on how to skirt the rules - not something I want. If folks are really interested in a real PAE cleanup project, please let me know. Smallbones(smalltalk) 16:21, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- What is really needed is a check button under the edit summary with THIS IS A COI EDIT (linked to the policy page), right next to THIS IS A MINOR EDIT. If clicked, this would tag the summary as a COI edit so that the change could be reviewed by an unconnected editor. No need to deface the article for all time with a flag. Carrite (talk) 17:22, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- I would support that, as long as checking the box results in an immediate revert and ban on further editing in article space.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:35, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- That's a pretty extreme take, isn't it? Carrite (talk) 07:16, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- No, I think it's relatively mild, actually. Once someone self-identifies as a paid advocacy editor, it is extremely unwise (giving rise to a completely justified perception of corruption) to let them continue editing article space.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:46, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm all for what you're suggesting, Jimbo. But at this point it is not policy. If you want to make it policy, perhaps through a strengthening of the Terms of Use by the WMF, it would certainly be a step forward. But right now you'll not get support from the community. I think that this is an issue in which the community needs to be led, not followed. Coretheapple (talk) 16:00, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- No, I think it's relatively mild, actually. Once someone self-identifies as a paid advocacy editor, it is extremely unwise (giving rise to a completely justified perception of corruption) to let them continue editing article space.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:46, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- That's a pretty extreme take, isn't it? Carrite (talk) 07:16, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- That's a good idea. Coretheapple (talk) 17:30, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Make the check box for THIS IS A PAID EDIT and require it to be used in the case of paid edits. I'm 100% in favor of that. Smallbones(smalltalk) 18:04, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think we all realize that not all COI edits are paid COI edits. They all need to be checkable, whether or not the writer has been paid. Carrite (talk) 07:18, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Make the check box for THIS IS A PAID EDIT and require it to be used in the case of paid edits. I'm 100% in favor of that. Smallbones(smalltalk) 18:04, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- I would support that, as long as checking the box results in an immediate revert and ban on further editing in article space.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:35, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Who should I ping to get a reading on the technical issues of including such a box, Philippe (WMF)? Probably not, but he should know who to contact. The technical issues, as I see them, would be
1. how to get a read out on your watchlist, perhaps with a bolded P or PE or Pde (I've got a personal preference here) next to the paid entry. Perhaps only paid entries on a special list where you don't need to specify the articles you're interested in.
2. How long would it take to get up and running? Less than the time needed to pass a new policy (since it would have to be a requirement to click the box for paid entries)?
- Smallbones(smalltalk) 20:21, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- This would be a horrible idea as it would send the false message that we condone COI (paid advocacy) editing. Such edits should be immediate grounds for banning.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:36, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Smallbones(smalltalk) 20:21, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Again, this is a perspective that is way, way, way, way more extreme than the standing consensus about such things. The new Terms Of Use by WMF have more or less codified paid editing. That ship has sailed. Carrite (talk) 07:22, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'd say that certain forms of paid editing, e.g. Wikipedians in Residence, are specifically allowed on En Misplaced Pages, others are regulated by the WMF under the ToS but not specifically mentioned under En Misplaced Pages rules. I'd agree that that ship has sailed, except that very few paid editors seem to follow the regulation - how many many paid editing declarations have you seen? (and how do you find these declarations? I think I've seen less than a half-dozen paid editing declarations, we may need something a bit stricter. Smallbones(smalltalk) 08:01, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Smallbones, don't fall for this fallacy of equating all paid editing with paid *advocacy* editing. We should welcome, for example, universities who encourage professors to edit Misplaced Pages on their subject matter expertise, even paying them bonuses to do so. That's not the issue that anyone is really concerned about and is 100% different from the moral corruption of paid advocacy editing. Carrite seems to think the ship has sailed on this issue, but he's mistaken. The WMF terms of service did not codify paid advocacy editing - it was a first step at banning it completely. The wind is blowing very strongly against it, and those who are engaging in paid advocacy editing of article space (as opposed to following the bright line rule approach) should understand that the mood of the community is very strongly against them and increasingly so.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:51, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'd say that certain forms of paid editing, e.g. Wikipedians in Residence, are specifically allowed on En Misplaced Pages, others are regulated by the WMF under the ToS but not specifically mentioned under En Misplaced Pages rules. I'd agree that that ship has sailed, except that very few paid editors seem to follow the regulation - how many many paid editing declarations have you seen? (and how do you find these declarations? I think I've seen less than a half-dozen paid editing declarations, we may need something a bit stricter. Smallbones(smalltalk) 08:01, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Again, this is a perspective that is way, way, way, way more extreme than the standing consensus about such things. The new Terms Of Use by WMF have more or less codified paid editing. That ship has sailed. Carrite (talk) 07:22, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think you (Jimbo) must have misunderstood me. This would just be a required disclosure for paid editing similar to one of the 3 required now. Paid editors now have their choice of declaring on their user page, on the talk page, or in the edit summary. This would just be a small variation of the edit summary, except that it would be required so that we can find paid edits easily and thus more easily monitor it, rather than searching around in 3 different places. i.e. paid editors can effectively hide their paid edits now. Smallbones(smalltalk) 22:59, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- I see where you are coming from but I still don't agree. I don't think we should take steps to normalize paid advocacy editing of article space whatsoever. We should require disclose (as we currently do) and require avoiding article space ENTIRELY for paid advocacy editors. There is simply no valid justification for doing that editing yourself, when you are being paid, as opposed to asking completely independent unpaid (i.e. uncorrupted) editors to take a look at your paid-for suggestions.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:46, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- @user:Smallbones I think such a plan for post-edit reviews would be appropriate if most paid edits were good changes that only needed a quick re-assurance. In practice though, the majority of them are self-serving edits, asking to add awards, philanthropy, and other promotional material using primary sources. Also, the number of hours it would take WMF to develop new features would actually be more hours than the community spends each month reviewing Request Edits in pre-existing tools.
- I see where you are coming from but I still don't agree. I don't think we should take steps to normalize paid advocacy editing of article space whatsoever. We should require disclose (as we currently do) and require avoiding article space ENTIRELY for paid advocacy editors. There is simply no valid justification for doing that editing yourself, when you are being paid, as opposed to asking completely independent unpaid (i.e. uncorrupted) editors to take a look at your paid-for suggestions.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:46, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think you (Jimbo) must have misunderstood me. This would just be a required disclosure for paid editing similar to one of the 3 required now. Paid editors now have their choice of declaring on their user page, on the talk page, or in the edit summary. This would just be a small variation of the edit summary, except that it would be required so that we can find paid edits easily and thus more easily monitor it, rather than searching around in 3 different places. i.e. paid editors can effectively hide their paid edits now. Smallbones(smalltalk) 22:59, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think the community is too focused on "transparency & review" as the solution to paid editing, whereas I give article-subjects advice based on an "abstain, unless, then" model, where abstaining is the de-facto. CorporateM (Talk) 04:56, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think that "transparency and review" is where we're at. Let's make sure it is as transparent as can be and as well reviewed as we are able. That has always been the key to solving this contentious issue. (I really like your "transparency and review" phrasing, by the way, that's right on the money...) Carrite (talk) 07:28, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- For those interested in an example of CorporateM's advice on "abstain, unless, then", here is a batch of content that has been waiting patiently for nearly two weeks for the "then" portion, i.e., "review and consideration by a disinterested editor to avoid any remote appearance of impropriety". Clearly CorporateM's version ("The merger was opposed by consumer advocates, such as the Consumer Federation of America, due to anti-trust concerns. The two companies combined would become the largest pet food brand by market-share with a 45 percent share of the cat food market.") is better than Misplaced Pages's current version ("Both corporations saw this major strategic transaction as the ideal way to benefit from their combined know-how, complementary strengths and international presence in the growing pet-care market."), but since Nestle presumably paid for the improved content, it's radioactive and few volunteer editors would dare introduce it to Misplaced Pages's article space. CorporateM undoubtedly got paid for the research and writing time, regardless of whether it gets pasted into article space or not. Prelude after noon (talk) 15:31, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- From what I've seen, transparency and review has failed us quite significantly. Whether a paid editor discloses and follows the Bright Line or acts covertly, the outcome tends to be the same edits, only now the edits have increased stickiness and the paid editor can claim immunity to accountability for their edits, being that they didn't actually make them themselves. It promotes gaming the system, canvassing, and creates more trouble than just deleting promotional material in article-space. WP:COI says editors with a COI are suppose to be "cautious" but the PR industry seems to now believe advocacy is acceptable so long as it's in Talk space. There are cases where BrightLine/transparency is useful, but it is difficult to say whether its net-effect is good or bad. In most cases the article-subject wants something different than Misplaced Pages and we do not want them to reach those goals that are counter to our mission, regardless of the process or level of transparency used to attain them. CorporateM (Talk) 18:33, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- For those interested in an example of CorporateM's advice on "abstain, unless, then", here is a batch of content that has been waiting patiently for nearly two weeks for the "then" portion, i.e., "review and consideration by a disinterested editor to avoid any remote appearance of impropriety". Clearly CorporateM's version ("The merger was opposed by consumer advocates, such as the Consumer Federation of America, due to anti-trust concerns. The two companies combined would become the largest pet food brand by market-share with a 45 percent share of the cat food market.") is better than Misplaced Pages's current version ("Both corporations saw this major strategic transaction as the ideal way to benefit from their combined know-how, complementary strengths and international presence in the growing pet-care market."), but since Nestle presumably paid for the improved content, it's radioactive and few volunteer editors would dare introduce it to Misplaced Pages's article space. CorporateM undoubtedly got paid for the research and writing time, regardless of whether it gets pasted into article space or not. Prelude after noon (talk) 15:31, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
I just had an idea that I have not thought through in any great detail. We have the capability (not used much here but wildly popular in other languages) to put articles into "flagged revisions" state, see Misplaced Pages:Pending changes. It would require some (relatively simple, probably) changes to MediaWiki to put editors into that state, or even for individual editors to tick a box to request review by an independent editor before that change goes live. I can imagine a lot of use cases for this.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:11, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Good idea to minimize bureaucracy. Requesting a change on the talk page is pretty much a waste of time because it's often overlooked. If the proposed change were turned into a pending change, that would be useful. Next time somebody reliable edited the article, the change would be reviewed and adopted or rejected. Presumably if an account were discovered doing paid advocacy, it could be set to this state by an administrator, or an ethical PR agency could create accounts in this state. Somebody doing an occasional paid edit could flag particular edits without flagging their account. Jehochman 14:29, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I agree that this "flagged editors" thing is a good idea. Also I understand Jimbo's concerns about re Carrite's/Smallobne's suggestion. However, what Carrite is simply doing is recognizing that COI editing is permitted. I agree that identifying paid
editorsedits (Smallbones' idea) in the same fashion would be counterproductive. Coretheapple (talk) 16:04, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Semi-Protection
I see that this talk page has been semi-protected due to block evasion. I thought that User:Jimbo Wales had traditionally had an open-door policy on this page with regard to blocked and banned users, so that this page was an exception to the rule that editing logged out by blocked or banned users was sockpuppetry. There was a recent ArbCom case resulting from an edit-war over the removal of posts by banned users. Looking over that case, I don't see that the ArbCom changed the status of this page. Has Jimbo changed the policy on this page and requested the semi-protection? In view of some of the recent posts by IPs to this page, the semi-protection is probably a good idea, but was it Jimbo's idea? Just asking. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:44, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Nope. He's elaborated on this a few times. Interesting discussions have been removed as a result of this, too. (By the protecting admin) Also relevant: User_talk:HJ_Mitchell#Would_you_please_partially_self_revert.3F Tutelary (talk) 00:04, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- What is the point of drawing attention to obvious trolling? People should work out the purpose of Misplaced Pages and promote that purpose. Anyone wanting gossip should go to the other website. Thanks to HJ Mitchell! Johnuniq (talk) 00:37, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm fine with temporary semi-protection and I'm also fine with the occasional removal of tedious rehashes of old points by banned users. But I also in general want to keep an open door policy, even to banned editors, without giving them an infinite soapbox to harass me and others. I'd say that if I've responded to someone, that's a good indicator that I think the question and my answer should stand publicly - though 'hatting' is a good option if the discussion seems to be spinning into uselessness. These are going to be difficult judgment calls and the main thing that I think came out of the recent ArbCom case is that good users should assume good faith and try not to edit war about such things. In the discussion on HJ Mitchell's talk page, there was a good suggestion: if a user in good standing feels that there was a valid question that needs answering, then they can ask it themselves. I think that's a good approach.
- In the two specific threads that were removed, I gave my answer to one: WP:CHILDPROTECT is policy which can and will be enforced both by the community in some cases, and by the WMF in some cases. The other, well, I have to defer to WMF Legal for further questions in part because of the delicate nature of such matters, but also in part because I'm not personally privy to recent developments. (I could ask, and they would give me a detailed briefing, but I'm not that interested in the details right now. I think the Foundation should take a much harder line and ban not just based on the narrow grounds they use today, but also quite a few abusers who are disrupting the community, but that's another question for another day.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:16, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Err, are you talking the WMF ban more people on child protection issues or....something else? I really hope you're not referring to people in the case just closed as I am sure everyone is taking a step back, recharging, calming down and (hopefully) moving on. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:14, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry to be ambiguous. No, I wasn't referring to any recent case. I think the current WMF approach to child protection is good and thankfully it remains a very tiny and rare problem. Speaking in general, I think that the WMF should step in more aggressively when we have cases of volunteers being harassed. Getting involved in bans in areas relating to POV pushing and whatnot would be unwise, as those are things about which the community has great expertise and that system seems to be working relatively well. But I would like to see more aggressive enforcement of the terms of service, particularly "Engaging in harassment, threats, stalking, spamming, or vandalism".--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:42, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Aah ok, yes that I agree on. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:50, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry to be ambiguous. No, I wasn't referring to any recent case. I think the current WMF approach to child protection is good and thankfully it remains a very tiny and rare problem. Speaking in general, I think that the WMF should step in more aggressively when we have cases of volunteers being harassed. Getting involved in bans in areas relating to POV pushing and whatnot would be unwise, as those are things about which the community has great expertise and that system seems to be working relatively well. But I would like to see more aggressive enforcement of the terms of service, particularly "Engaging in harassment, threats, stalking, spamming, or vandalism".--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:42, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Err, are you talking the WMF ban more people on child protection issues or....something else? I really hope you're not referring to people in the case just closed as I am sure everyone is taking a step back, recharging, calming down and (hopefully) moving on. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:14, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Tim Toni
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Tim Toni is open for conversation. If you have the time, examine the debate and yield an opinion. Thanks! Seattle (talk) 00:36, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Idea
Jimbo - see Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:36, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Very interesting! I'd never thought of this approach, so let me say it in my own words to see if I can capture what you are saying: if someone can't be substantively discussed in any Misplaced Pages entry other than their own biography, this is a warning sign to us that the person may be simply "famous for being famous" and therefore not truly encyclopedic. I write it this way ("a warning sign to us") to avoid overstating the case, as there could certainly be exceptions. And there are some ways that people can try to be a bit wikilawyerly about it - imagine a set of twins, each of whom could in theory be discussed in each other's entry, but taken as a pair, they aren't notable for any other topic. I think such games playing, though, doesn't really do anything to undermine your core insight here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:04, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes - precisely it - sort of a boomerang effect. If the person has not done anything that could be reasonably included in a nonbiographic article, then this comes into play (a bit like being solely notable for being a relative and having done nothing else notable) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:09, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
I give up
We, that is, the peasant that is me, appreciate your intervention in restoring a rubbish article about rubbish without sources or any kind of comprehensibility. We also appreciate your facilitation of the co-opting of the encylopaedia by dregs from the region of the Internet that is called Lower Slobbovia. Thank you, sir. We do appreciate it. We do appreciate all your work in making the encylopaedia you created look like the domain of foolish lunatics. Praise God, and farewell. RGloucester — ☎ 20:06, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I wish you well in life.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:10, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- No you don't. Nor do you care how much time your 'volunteers' have to put in to try and make the project better. Unilateral overruling numerous editors and a month long merge discussion for an article mirrored by the Neo-Nazi Metapedia is beyond the pale. All you've shown is just how much you don't give a fuck. Dave Dial (talk) 20:14, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- For the rest of us who have this page on their watchlist and wonder what is happening here, some sort of clarification of what is being discussed would be more than welcome. John Carter (talk) 20:17, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- No you don't. Nor do you care how much time your 'volunteers' have to put in to try and make the project better. Unilateral overruling numerous editors and a month long merge discussion for an article mirrored by the Neo-Nazi Metapedia is beyond the pale. All you've shown is just how much you don't give a fuck. Dave Dial (talk) 20:14, 6 December 2014 (UTC)