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This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination: Kept (SNOW close), 23 May 2014, see discussion. Kept (SNOW close), 1 April 2014, see discussion.

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A fact from Natalia Poklonskaya appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know column on 5 June 2014, and was viewed approximately 25,586 times (disclaimer) (check views). The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that the Prosecutor General of Crimea, Natalia Poklonskaya, is barred from entering European Union countries? A record of the entry may be seen at Misplaced Pages:Recent additions/2014/June. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Natalia Poklonskaya.

My addition

In a section about "internet popularity", I think I am justified by the reliable source's due weight to include cultural influences about her, including the fact that she is going to be added as a character in a video game. I was notified in the edit summary that the reason behind the revert was 'Ohconfuscious already cleaned this bit up'. Well, nobody owns the article. I want a real reason on why my edit was reverted, and not just a 'I don't like it' bit. Thanks. Tutelary (talk) 13:37, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

My feelings on this: video games are a significant 'new and different' field compared to viral videos and drawings. The source also mentions a planned Grand Theft Auto game modified for her. One sentence coverage should suffice. starship.paint "YES!" 14:15, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Of course, anything else would constitute as undue weight, and I'd need more sources in order to expand that. However, I was a bit confused when I was reverted because 'one editor worked on this a bit' and all of a sudden, I can't edit that? I'd still like to get a response from the person who reverted me. Tutelary (talk) 14:26, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

First, in your edit-summary you mis-applied the concept of WP:OWN: Ohconfuscious is not the owner of this article. Obviously, Ohconfucius is not the owner of the article and you did not get reverted by him, but by me. That's not WP:OWN; this is called agreement between two editors. I just happen to agree with his cleanup of this trivia. Second, compare the page view statistics of Prime World of only 2328 views in 30 days to those of Halo_(series) with 104161. "Prime World" is clearly a very minor video-game compared to a really popular one, yet your edit introduced it as "popular": Popular Russian game.... So, in effect you are using this BLP to promote obscure games. In addition the game also happens to feature sexist depictions of its heroines as this sample image shows: File:Artiste from Prime World at Igromir 2012.jpg. It doesn't get any more WP:UNDUE, trivial or problematic than that in a BLP. Δρ.Κ.  20:04, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

I was simply using the wording that the sourcing used. The source in itself described the game as popular. And no, that was not my intention. And Misplaced Pages is not censored. Also, please demonstrate good faith, I am attempting to improve the article and you saying that I am simply promoting a certain POV is the definition of bad faith. Also, just because you view something as sexist is not a good reason to omit something. Again, Misplaced Pages is not censored. Tutelary (talk) 20:11, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

A significant proportion of videogames are played by single males, news at 11. Honestly, are you using a photograph of cosplay at a games convention as an argument that a game is sexist? --benlisquare_T•C•E 20:10, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Indiscriminately using the promotional language of the Russian source may not reflect the lack of popularity of this video game in the rest of the world. And please do not throw around slogans like WP:CENSOR. NOT promoting a minor, sexist video game in a BLP has nothing to do with censorship. It is good encyclopaedic practice. Δρ.Κ.  20:15, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 2) I am attempting to improve the article and you saying that I am simply promoting a certain POV is the definition of bad faith. Please don't accuse good-faith editors of "bad faith". Please WP:AAGF. I did not say you are promoting any POV. Where did I say that? Please provide a diff. Δρ.Κ.  20:20, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Again, just because you see it as a questionable, sexist game does not serve as the reason to omit it. Tutelary (talk) 20:17, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Promoting obscure, sexist video games in a BLP is against the BLP policy and WP:UNDUE. Δρ.Κ.  20:22, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Again, you are Demonstrating bad faith with me. You also fail to mention any specific BLP policy, and a single sentence mention of an inclusion of the individual does not constitute as undue weight. Tutelary (talk) 20:25, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 3) You are at 3RR currently. Please follow WP:BRD and stop edit-warring. Δρ.Κ.  20:28, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Your rapid-fire edit-warring and personal attacks of bad faith should stop. Please stop defending this clearly WP:UNDUE addition in this article using edit-warring and personal attacks. Δρ.Κ.  20:35, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

I have not lodged any personal attacks at you, but you clearly mentioning that it is 'sexist' among other things as the sole reason for omitting is violating the sole principle of Misplaced Pages, in which it is not censored. I've already stated why I don't believe WP:UNDUE applies, and to attempt to say that I've personally attacked you, when you yourself have demonstrated bad faith by saying I am just here on this page to promote a game, rather than here to improve the encylopedia. Tutelary (talk) 20:49, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

I think you are confused. Your diff is my reply to Benlisquare, not to you. Can you not see it is directly below his name and indented as a reply to him/her? It also happened after I asked you above to supply a diff where I accuse you personally that you were promoting the video. BTW, I have already amended my reply to Benlisquare to eliminate any concerns that I thought s/he was personally responsible for the promotion. Δρ.Κ.  21:34, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Hold on a second, let's think about something you've mentioned. You've stated that inclusion would be promoting an obscure game, and you've reasoned using article hits, comparing this game with Halo. Fine, that's reasonable. But, you might be forgetting something that might be important when measuring "obscurity". Halo is an American game, and the primary audience are English-speaking Americans. The primary audience of Prime World, however are Russians. Surely you wouldn't expect Russians to visit the English Misplaced Pages, to read an English article about the game? Halo gets 20,776 views within 90 days on the Russian Misplaced Pages, whilst Prime World gets 24,623 views within 90 days on the Russian Misplaced Pages - this statistic is significant in itself. At least within CIS countries, Prime World is more relevant than Halo is. Your earlier reasoning had a tiny flaw, in that it assumed that there wouldn't be regional discrepancies when gauging the obscurity of a game. --benlisquare_T•C•E 20:29, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

I think you are forgetting something important. This is the English Misplaced Pages. And you are promoting a Russian game to a vastly wider audience through this BLP. In my opinion, the addition of this obscure video game into the article has the effect of promoting it to a vastly wider audience through this BLP. Δρ.Κ.  20:32, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

We are simply reporting on what the sources said. I am not going to synthesize the source by not going with what it says. Of course, it does have to be taken with a grain of salt, and put into context. "popular in russia' would be better than what I put as 'popular'. Nonetheless, I did not intend to promote the game in any case. Tutelary (talk) 20:33, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not promoting anything. Please be careful with your second-person pronouns. --benlisquare_T•C•E 20:34, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. I rephrased. Δρ.Κ.  20:53, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

WP:BLP combined with WP:DUE mean that adding fluff to promote a game here will never fly. WP:NOTCENSORED does not mean that crap can be put on any page. Johnuniq (talk) 02:39, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I have stated numerous times that I am not here to promote the game. I am here to put in a NPOV statement about how the subject is scheduled to be in a popular-in-russia video game. I do however am fond of you calling my contributions 'crap'. I am going to stop touching this page (unless I see overt vandalism) as it's making me stressed out. Just consider my 'crap' edit to be moot and void. Tutelary (talk) 03:53, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Please ponder the fact that the article text of Barack Obama has no mention whatsoever of the many conspiracy theories regarding Obama. The notability of those conspiracy theories is beyond question, yet they are not added to the main article—we can thank WP:BLP and WP:DUE for that. The reasoning is similar here—someone has chosen to exploit the subject of a BLP, but that does not mean the article has to amplify the exploitation. Johnuniq (talk) 03:54, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Promoting a game???

• I consider accusations that editors are trying to promote a game here on Poklonskaya's page to be rather insulting and even bad faith. The only thing we are trying to promote is that Poklonskaya is apparently so popular in Internet culture that she has inspired video game characters. The focus is not the game itself, it's the phenomenon of Poklonskaya inspiring video game characters. starship.paint "YES!" 09:40, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
  • We do not know what is in the mind of editors, which is fine because that is not relevant. What matters is the proposed text, and that text uses a BLP to promote a game. No one is suggesting that an editor intended to promote anything—promotion is just the effect of the text. Similarly, there is no suggestion that any editor has added caricatures in order to denigrate a public official—it's just that cartoons have that effect. The phenomenon of these cartoons will disappear within a couple of months, but the Obama conspiracy theories I mentioned just above will last forever and are much more significant and notable. Johnuniq (talk) 10:19, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
    • Perhaps the proposed text has to be reworded. I've said above, the focus should be Poklonskaya inspiring video game characters. I propose instead: Following her Internet popularity, Poklonskaya was noted to have inspired a character in a Russian video game. starship.paint "YES!" 11:53, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
      • That would be fine if Poklonskaya had anything at all to do with the cartoons or the game. She does not. She is merely a public official who has caught ephemeral attention due to her appearance. The correct way to handle this is to make an article on the topic which is "caricatures/games inspired by the appearance of public officials". Johnuniq (talk) 12:00, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
        • We're going to have to agree to disagree at this point; you don't think she has anything to do with the game. I think that inspiring a character is something to do with the game ... and is an accomplishment of Poklonskaya. starship.paint "YES!" 12:12, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Is there any source that shows minimal information such as even confirming that Poklonskaya knows the cartoons or game exist? Has Poklonskaya commented on them? Has anything in Poklonskaya's life changed because of the cartoons or game? Johnuniq (talk) 01:46, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

• Outdented for you. Not sure about the game, but she definitely knows of the drawings - original Japanese news source in Japanese, re-reported by Japanese culture site in English, re-reported by Philippines news source. "The divorcee replied that while she doesn’t watch Japanese animation herself, her nine-year-old daughter does, and couldn’t be happier that the same country that makes the cartoons she enjoys is now enshrining her mother in the medium’s style ... Despite her lack of personal interest, though, Poklonskaya doesn’t mind being the subject of so many sketches. “Public figures and people in the government are often drawn, and this cannot be avoided,” she said matter-of-factly."
• As to whether her Internet popularity has affected her in real life ... it has certainly affected her employers, the Russian Prosecutor's Office: see AFP source: "Russia tried Tuesday to stop a flood of inquiries about the telegenic young lawyer it has appointed as prosecutor for newly annexed Crimea, whose looks have won her a huge Internet following. The Russian prosecutor general’s office said it was tired of answering questions about 34-year-old Natalya Poklonskaya, who has become an unlikely Internet star and even the heroine of Japanese manga cartoon strips.
• But I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here - whether the cartoons / game character have any effect on Poklonskaya doesn't take away that she has caused them, albeit inadvertently. starship.paint "YES!" 04:09, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

• There's also this video interview, see 0:20. --benlisquare_T•C•E 04:19, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

• @Johnuniq:, have you seen our replies? starship.paint "YES!" 05:47, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

• Yes, I had seen them thanks, and I'm glad to have had my question answered. Let's say a politician is found in a hotel with an "escort"—there might be a lot of gossip about that if anyone cares about the politician. That would be an event that required the subject of a BLP to take an action (they arranged the liason) and so reports of the event might be considered for inclusion in their article. However, even in that case it would be reasonable to ask whether the politician's life changed because of the event—if reliable sources state that the politician lost the next election because of the escort, the answer would be an overwhelming yes. If there was just a couple of weeks of media excitement, the answer would be no. In the case of Poklonskaya's article, we are talking about an event removed from the subject—she did not arrange anything, and the reports above merely confirm that she has commented in a professional and expected manner. I still do not see anything that I would regard as a life-changing event, and my preference would be for an article on the topic to be created—I'm not sure exactly what the topic is, but it is something to do with Internet phenomenon or Internet celebrity. Johnuniq (talk) 06:34, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

• @Johnuniq: if that's your answer then I'm not sure why you asked those questions, especially the question on whether Poklonskaya was aware and had commented on the drawings. If she had not commented in a "professional and expected manner" and instead criticized the drawings in a negative way, might you have called for the drawings to be removed? Because I'm not sure what kind of a response she could give that would elicit a positive response from you instead of a dismissive one.
• As Poklonskaya is not a politician, she doesn't need to run for office in elections so I can't foresee much "life-changing" (rather strong term?) effect of the drawings in the first place. Yet it is proven above that her overall Internet popularity has caused in real life for many people to contact her office with various enquiries. It's not that hard to imagine that those enquiries would have been directed at Poklonskaya herself if her phone number was available. Of course, this is not a life-changing event, but it is true that her popularity is affecting the workload of the Prosecutor's office. starship.paint "YES!" 07:41, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Regarding compromises

Taking this from the DYK nom to the talk page, because that's what the talk page is for. Dr.K., you keep repeatedly advocating at the DYKN for the current state of the images to be dropped. How do we know that after the image is dropped again to a single one, your next agenda after that won't be to push it further to a state of having no image at all? The editors of the article have made multiple compromises already, and leeway has been given bit by bit in reducing the parts that have been hotly discussed, with the intention of satisfying everyone's concerns. However, you've been showing signs of taking a mile when given an inch in the past, what's there to convince me that I'm not going to see something similar again? You know the "fool me once, fool me twice" saying. You've made your personal standpoint and opinion very clear in your talk page engagements that you have a strongly anti-"anime" sentiment, given that you make claims that the images are an "industry assault" on this individual. The signs really don't point to a genuine compromise solution when you put common sense into the equation, which gives me the right to be skeptical. --benlisquare_T•C•E 12:48, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not very sure what's there to discuss regarding further action on the pictures. The article in the current state is the compromise. We can't budge any more. If you want to discuss the rationale, sure, I can do that again, but no more changes. starship.paint "YES!" 13:23, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I made my position clear at the DYK nom page long time ago, in reply to Moscow Connection. As far as your unsupported PAs about next agenda, taking a mile when given an inch in the past and "fool me once, fool me twice", one last time: Please drop them, or provide the diffs to prove them. Δρ.Κ.  17:02, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Here we go again. How about some substantiation for your position, Dr.K.? starship.paint "YES!" 03:34, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Welcome back Starship. Sorry, but I am not going to repeat my points. I think my position for a minimalist approach on cartoon art for this BLP is clear enough. If it isn't to you, sorry again, but so be it. Btw, my notification system doesn't work for some reason. I never got a notification from your link to my name. Δρ.Κ.  04:13, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Okay then. You've been given the chance to reiterate your substantiation here - since you didn't, then your position on minimalist approach is simply that - just a position - if so, I don't see that worthy of any change to the article. starship.paint "YES!" 04:44, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Starship, if we ever agree on something, I'll order a bottle of Dom Pérignon. Δρ.Κ.  05:24, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Your wine doesn't further any discussion, which could be your intention, maybe. starship.paint "YES!" 01:47, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

"My wine" was an attempt at humour. YMMV obviously, but in case you did not get the humour, let me be explicit: I have nothing to discuss further on this subject. You stated just above: The article in the current state is the compromise. We can't budge any more. That's as clear a declaration as any that any further discussion is futile. Ergo, I have nothing to discuss with you on this subject any longer. I hope that makes it clear, since obviously my attempt at humour failed to convey the message. Δρ.Κ.  02:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Very well then. starship.paint "YES!" 02:19, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

On articles for Attorneys General of regional subdivisions

This was one of the themes of the latest AfD, so I may as well put this out there for future cases. Starship.paint touched on this, since it was one of the claims that the nominator, Launchballer, made, but I thought I'd elaborate a bit for clarity's sake. An Attorney General of a region/national subdivision is notable, we have articles for each Attorney General of California, and articles for each Attorney General of New South Wales. There are articles numbering well into the thousands of such lawmakers of states and provinces from the United States, Canada, Australia, Britain and New Zealand. It's natural that we would follow suit for Attorneys General of Crimea under the same principle; the reason why we don't have many articles on Crimean (or Ukrainian or Russian ones, for that matter) Attorneys General (known as "Prosecutors" within the Slavic world) is simply because people haven't been writing about them yet (surprise surprise, on an Encyclopedia project dominated by western contributors). Again, this is systemic bias in play, something that we should avoid here on this project. --benlisquare_T•C•E 03:40, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes. Like I said, all you have to do is take a look at Category:State attorneys general in the United States. I dare say that the average number of state attorney articles is easily above 10 for one state, since there are 13 states under 10 articles and at least 13 states over 24 articles (some have even more than 40+ attorney articles for one state). assuming 10 x 50 states = 500. And how many of these attorney generals have been involved in an international crisis like Poklonskaya? That said, this current AfD should be the last. How can her notability decrease...? starship.paint "YES!" 08:20, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

EU sanctions should be in lead?

An editor put the EU sanction information itno the lead. Someone else removed it, with the edit summary "That content is already in the article itself." But that is kind of the point. The lead should only contain material that is in the article itself. It should contain the most important facts. This seems to me a fairly significant one about her, and about how a major geopolitical player sees her position. I thought it belonged in the lead, myself. Any other views? hamiltonstone (talk) 04:25, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

It's a short bio and not everything should be in the lead. How significant is the sanction for her work and her life? What source says it is significant? Johnuniq (talk) 06:02, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

The above reasoning is pretty much why I removed it from the lead. Linking WP:LEAD for reference. —  dainomite   06:07, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Mejlis

The video I mentioned in my edit summary: . I've just watched it. Actually, she just reads out to Refat Chubarov some warning. And the document she reads simply mentions that Mustafa Dzhemilev (not Refat Chubarov) is barred from entering Russia. And the video's description says that after the warning Chubarov was barred from entering Russia. It doesn't say when this "after" happened exactly. But you can see that the video ends and Chubarov goes his way, no one wants to arrest and expel him or anything. (And by the way, it surely doesn't count as a public announcement. There's too much text and maybe I missed something, but it surely doesn't.)

And by the way, I don't see how all this and the sentence saying "On 4 May, Poklonskaya accused the Crimean Tatars' self-governmental body (the Mejlis) of extremist activity, warning that the Mejlis could be dissolved and outlawed across Russia" is relevant in a Career section of an encyclopedia article. It just makes it look like it's her personal fight against Mejlis. Which this certainly isn't. She just does her work. --Moscow Connection (talk) 20:40, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Top queries of 2014

Would someone care to add a sentence or two about her being one of the top queries of the year 2014 in both Russia in Ukraine (in both Google and Yandex). Here's the only source I've found in English . (There are more sources in Russian, but I'm busy with something else. I would really appreciate if someone else took care of this.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 18:21, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Some sources:

• Ukraine
  • Google, 8th place in "Людина року" ("People of the year"): google-ukraine-blog.blogspot.ru (Google Ukraine official blog), google.com, unian.net, vesti-ukr.com, rbc.ua, nbnews
  • Yandex, 2nd place in "Женщины" ("Women"): revolverlab.com, kp.ua
• Russia
  • Google, 7th place in "Люди года" ("People of the year"): google.com, wonderzine.com
  • Yandex, 4th place in "Женщины" ("Women"): en.krymedia.ru, c24news.ru, modny.spb.ru, vesti.ru, tjournal.ru

--Moscow Connection (talk) 18:54, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Maxim magazine entry is at BLPN

Template:BLP noticeboard

I have started a thread there. Δρ.Κ.  18:08, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, the discussion of whether it should be included in *this* article, should be on *this articles* talk page. BLPN is a *noticeboard*. CombatWombat42 (talk) 19:56, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I have no strong opinion on Maxim as I've never read it. I don't personally think Natalia Poklonskaya "sexyness" is particularly important information, it is clear that Maxim does. It is also clear that Maxim is a source of news for a large number of people, again not news I consider interesting. Additionally Natalia Poklonskaya's "sexyness" is undesputably mentioned in more than just Maxim therefore it seems valid to include the "news" of her rank in that particular publication. CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:07, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

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