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Acupuncture

Initiated by —Kww(talk) at 23:24, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Involved parties

• Kww (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), filing party
• John (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• LesVegas (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Jayaguru-Shishya (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• A1candidate (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• QuackGuru (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Roxy the dog (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• diff of notification John
• diff of notification LesVegas
• diff of notification Jayaguru-Shishya
• diff of notification A1candidate
• diff of notification QuackGuru
• diff of notification Roxy the dog

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

• John's talk page
• Talk:Acupuncture

Statement by Kww

I am bringing this here because any effort for me to resolve it would likely provoke wheel-warring between me and User:John, obviously an undesirable situation. This is also a holdover of our existing pseudoscience arbitrations, in terms of its application to acupuncture.

Acupuncture appears to have been the victim of flooding, wherein multiple studies with ambiguous results are listed in separate subsections in great prominence, all to give the false impression that the effectiveness of acupuncture is under wide and serious study. It's not: acupuncture is generally viewed as a placebo treatment with no scientific foundation. This summarizes it well: several thousand studies have failed to show any consistent application in which acupuncture is beneficial. Traditional Chinese medicine, the foundation of acupuncture, is also recognized as pseudoscience, a classification which has been mightily resisted by pro-Acupuncture editors. A quick read through that last link will demonstrate how unlikely it is for forward progress to be made. Accordingly, our section on the effectiveness of acupuncture should say just that: not shown to be consistently effective for anything and lacking in any theoretical foundation.

There's no doubt that the pro-science editors have not behaved admirably, but they are faced with entrenched editors that are padding the article with any study that presents acupuncture in a favourable light, misrepresenting those studies, lying about discussions that have taken place elsewhere. John's reaction has been to try to deal with this as an NPOV issue, requiring discussion between the editors: clearly fruitless at this point. He has focused his attention on QuackGuru and Roxy the dog, parties that have, at times, acted poorly out of sheer frustration.

My view is diametrically to John's: that it is our role as administrators to actively detect the users that are attempting to block a reflection of scientific consensus in the article, block them as appropriate, and help provide an environment that will allow our scientifically-minded editors to prevail. I would resolve this problem by blocking or topic-banning LesVegas, Jayaguru-Shishya, A1candidate, and, indeed, any and all editors that attempted to portray acupuncture as having medical legitimacy. This is the Martinphi vs. ScienceApologist problem all over again, and dealing with these people as legitimate editors leads to unsatisfactory results.

I bring this here primarily because it is a systemic problem, and a legacy of the inadequacy of the earlier Arbcom decision, which tells the project that we should strive to be in line with scientific consensus, but does not specifically tell adminstrators to deal with editors asymmetrically: blocking and banning those that would undermine that scientific consensus while encouraging those that attempt to support it.

• Cla68 doesn't misunderstand me: being polite about being wrong to the point that you drive other editors to distraction is to win a war by attrition. That subverts consensus, which is, in this class of articles, the scientific consensus. The only way to prevent this is, in such cases, to define "wrong" and enforce it.—Kww(talk) 00:10, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
• Thryduulf: because they reward patience and numbers, not accuracy. Remember that the professional acupuncturist views having a favourable view of acupuncture in the media as a source of financial gain. Additionally, here the problem is that out of the thousands of studies, there have been the occasional false negatives that portrayed acupuncture as harmful and false positives that portrayed acupuncture as beneficial. Our sanctions don't work well as a protection against cherry-picking.—Kww(talk) 00:47, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
• Courcelles: Precisely why I have only discussed, and haven't entered the fray with my tools. John's statement (in the linked diff) that he viewed me as part of the problem and that he did not recognize the distortions being made in the article made it clear to me that we were not going to come to mutual agreement as to the best way to proceed, especially given that I see John as a major part of the problem, in that, despite admirable motives, the effect of his actions is to provide aid and cover to people that intend to damage the encyclopedia.
• Guerillero: Because few would view me as an uninvolved administrator, I'm not capable of logging sanctions in this area. The history of AE has been that it is counterproductive for alternative medicine articles: note John's administration of Ayurveda, which, while reducing the edit thrash, has permitted the steady drift of the article away from clearly representing it as having no scientific basis.

• Guerillero:Precisely the trouble. Without a clear direction from Arbcom that an article about a medical topic should reflect scientific consensus and authorising actions intended to guarantee scientific consensus, acupuncture and other alternative medical articles won't do so. Alternative medicine is popular, despite generally being nonsense.

I certainly hate seeing this aiming for a decline, especially after the opinions by AE admins all say pretty much what I'm saying: AE is intended to address behavioural problems without much regard to their impact on article quality. What I'm saying is that we are approaching the condition with this, and many other alternative medicine articles, where people have learned that persistent and indefatigable politeness allows them to manipulate content, and that discretionary sanctions based on behaviour alone are not the solution.—Kww(talk) 15:28, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Statement by John

Statement by LesVegas

• Opening statement Since this is my first time to be involved in an Arbcom request, I'm not sure exactly what I'm supposed to do so I'll follow along and try my best. If I make any mistakes, please understand that I am new to this process and do not hesitate to correct me in any way. Overall, I object to attempts to topic ban any editor (especially me!) for simply holding opinions contrary to those of other editors. Behavior, policies and guidelines are what matter. At least, I hope. My interest in the Acupuncture article has been to add my linguistic and cultural expertise in places where I felt it was appropriate, and hope that I can continue this endeavor in the future.

• Thryduulf: I have always, to the best of my ability, operated within MEDRS and RS guidelines and NPOV policy when adding sources to the article. Like A1candidate, I also believe acupuncture doesn't clearly fall into the pseudoscience category, but rather into a bit of a grey area. Afterall, crystal healers are not primary care providers in any state, nor do insurance companies reimburse for that modality. I lived in Asia for several years and acupuncture is well adopted by the mainstream scientific community and governmental health authorities there. The NIH, NHS, WHO and others have also issued positive statements on its outcome. With no clear consensus on research, I believe it is better classified as "questionable science" than "pseudoscience". But even if one disagrees with my stance, I hope we all can agree that no matter the article, when sources meet policy and guideline standards we cannot simply delete or censor them because the outcome happens to be positive. Nor do I believe editors should be banned for posting such sources.

• Courcelles: Perhaps this should have been in my opening statement, but given your inquiry about wheel-warring, I would like to point out that Kww has been heavily involved in content disputes for some time on the Acupuncture article and talk page. I find his "reluctance to wheel war" fairly curious because he has been constantly involved in article content and disputes lately. Given that fact, he should know that wheel warring with John (who has never been involved) would undoubtedly result in trouble for him. His involvement also extends to his refusal (even by his own admission) to punish editors who break rules, and even deviates into rationalizing their bad behavior. I may be off-base here, but it seems to me that Kww might not truly coming here out of reluctance to wheel war, but is likely attempting to control article content and remove editors who stand in his way.

• @ ArbCom: Since nobody has brought this up, I figured I would so that the Arbcom could have as much information as possible to make whatever decision with. Just the other day, an administrator, Rjanag, made an identical edit to one that I made earlier, and that Kww contested both on the article and on talk. Rjanag also made a similar edit] on Traditional Chinese Medicine and has protected the page due to edit warring and is opening up discussion on talk. Rjanag has now opened an RfC for the topic. I find it puzzling why Kww seeks to have myself and two other editors topic banned for making and supporting an edit which a previously uninvolved admin has also made. Rjanag's reasoning mirrors many of the comments that I, Jayaguru-Shishya and A1candidate have brought up, namely reliable source violations. If our edits are so controversial, I question why a very similar edit was supported by another party, an admin, on multiple policy grounds? Doesn't this give any kind of validation to our original issues with the article?

Statement by Jayaguru-Shishya

• Opening statement

Greetings! I'd like to stress out that this is my very first encounter with ArbCom, so I am not sure how much in detail one should go with the comments presented here. Anyway, I'd be happy to provide more details if necessary though.

I see Kww bases his argumentation strongly on this division between "pro-acupuncturists" and "pro-science editors". I am pretty surprised that I find myself among these "pro-acupuncturists" that Kww is asking to be banned, since if one looks at the Talk Page, I've been strongly advising all the editors to keep strictly to MEDRS whenever dealing with claims on medical efficiency. I am not an acupuncturist, I have never been to an acupuncturist, and I don't believe that my forestry Finnish town even has an acupuncturist. Kww has made this allegation against me many times earlier, and I have corrected him being wrong every time. I am happy to provide diffs if necessary. If there are some individual edits or behavioural patterns that Kww is frustrated with, is this really the right place to discuss it? This is my first experience with ArbCom so I don't know.

One is free to examine my edit history, I am perfectly comfortable with that. I have 270 Misplaced Pages articles on my Watchlist, and only three of those fall under the Pseudoscience Discretionary Sanctions. I am not a "pro-acupuncturist", and these three articles express only a very tiny area of my areas of interest in Misplaced Pages.

* Pseudoscience or not?

First of all, I think it'd clarify this ArbCom case a lot if it just focuses on the discussion of whether acupuncture falls under the label of pseudoscience or not. I am not sure what Kww is trying to accomplish by his apologizes for users Roxy the Dog and QuackGuru. Is he unsatisfied with John's notifications and sanctions on these users? Does he think John's actions have were ungrounded? Does he think that these notifications and sanctions should be nullified? If so, is this the right place to discuss it? I am a first timer here, so sorry if I've have wrong conceptions about some things.

When it comes to the pseudoscience labeling, my argumentation have been as follows: 1) Acupuncture pre-dates what we know as modern science, so it cannot be "pseudoscience" in that sense, 2) whenever making claims on medical efficiency, we should uncompromisingly adhere to MEDRS, and 3) when just simply reporting mere "believes" without a dimension of medical claims, we could ease the requirement to RS. The third one I've actually discussed with user User:Bladesmulti when there was a similar discussion at Ayurveda (I can actually easily concur to Robert McClenon who closed the RfC there: "...it was only pseudo-science to the extent that scientific claims were made, and that its roots were in religion rather than science, and were not pseudo-science because they preceded the concept of modern science")

If any more information was needed, I'd be happy to provide. Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 15:36, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Statement by A1candidate

• Opening statement:

I regret that this dispute had not been resolved through substantial talk page discussions and I acknowledge my status as an involved party. If this case request is accepted, I'll be willing to offer any information that may aid the community in resolving the dispute.

• Thryduulf:

Enforcing the existing pseudoscience discretionary sanctions at AE may not be the best solution because much of the dispute rests on whether acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) in particular should be classified as pseudoscientific in the first place. Based on numerous scientific reviews as well as the consensus statements of medical organizations and the assertions of medical textbooks, I believe there is enough hard scientific evidence to make a strong case against the labelling of acupuncture as a form of pseudoscience. Despite my repeated attempts to engage with Kww and others, a consensus appears to be far from sight. Kww's filing for arbitration clearly demonstrates the polarity of the positions that we have taken in this dispute.

• Roger Davies:

Acupuncture should not be classified as fringe science because

1. The American Heart Association's consensus statement says that acupuncture's mechanism of effect appears to be through sensory mechanoreceptor and nociceptor stimulation induced by "connective tissues being wound around the needle".
2. Britain's National Health Service says that acupuncture is used in the majority of pain clinics and hospices in the UK and it is "based on scientific evidence that shows the treatment can stimulate nerves under the skin and in muscle tissue".
3. Cancer Research UK says that "medical research has shown that acupuncture works by stimulating nerves to release the body’s own natural chemicals."
4. The New England Journal of Medicine says that "some physiological phenomena associated with acupuncture have been identified"
5. Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine says that "the emerging acceptance of acupuncture results in part from its widespread availability and use in the United States today, even within the walls of major medical centers where it is used as an ancillary approach to pain management" Chapter e2, Page 5, McGraw-Hill, 2011, ISBN 9780071748902

• I am not aware of any WP:MEDRS compliant sources that specifically describes acupuncture as "fringe science" or "pseudoscience".

Statement by QuackGuru

Statement by Roxy the dog

Statement by NuclearWarfare

I would not necessarily consider myself an uninvolved administrator with this article, but neither am I all that involved in practice. I do hope that I have the bona fides to simply declare (without having to provide much evidence) that I have never been seen as one to be particularly sympathetic to pseudoscientific and other non-mainstream (or significant minority) points of view.

With that said, having read the talk page oldid that Kww links to, I am afraid I do not view things from his perspective. For example, Kww portrays A1candidate as someone who is "attempting to block a reflection of scientific consensus in the article" because they are attempting to "portray acupuncture as having medical legitimacy". That simply makes no sense to me; I read the talk page as indicating that A1candidate is not nearly convinced (by sources linked to and provided on that talk page) that acupuncture has significant medical benefits but that it does have some valid mechanism of action. Accordingly, it would make no sense to call it pseudoscientific, just like it would not make any sense to call yoga or meditation psuedoscientific (even though they are important components of Ayurveda).

Do I see some editors who should be banned on Talk:Acupuncture? Yes. But I don't think an ArbCom case will be the best venue for that. I think what is seriously needed is a set of reports to be filed at WP:AE with actual enforcement of the "Decorum" provisions of WP:AC/DS. I see that as working far more effectively than a full case.

I won't necessarily be watching this case request very closely, but people are welcome to drop me a note if they would like me to expand on any part of my statement. Best, NW (Talk) 23:54, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Cla68

KWW's statement is very illustrative of what is wrong with the alternative medicine topic area in Misplaced Pages. Although he admits that the behavior of WP's established "pro-science" editors can be problematic, he proposes that only the "pro-acupuncture" editors be topic banned, presumably because the established WP editors, even though they are behaving badly, need to stay around because they are supporting the "good" POV. For some reason, suggesting to Misplaced Pages's "pro-science" advocates and their admin enablers, that all relevant information (such as these "ambiguous studies" that KWW refers to) be allowed into these articles so the reader can read everything and make up their own mind as to the veracity of the claims is met with ridicule, insult, rejection, and/or indifference. If I understand correctly, because KWW doesn't want to get into a wheel war with John, he's asking for you, the Committee, to formally support and establish the official House POV on alternative medicine as the one supported by KWW and the editors who edit in the ways that his group approves of. KWW can correct me if I'm wrong. Cla68 (talk) 00:03, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Looks like acupuncture will now follow the same pattern as the other alternative medicine articles: (1) newbies will arrive and try to NPOV the tone of the article and add sources, including academic studies, that make the article less negative towards the topic, (2) they will be reverted, insulted, and dismissed by the article's regulars, several of whose names are listed above but have decided not to stick their necks out by making statements here, then (3) KWW and other admins dedicated to preserving the house POV will use some pretense to topic ban or ban those newbie editors under the Pseudoscience Discretionary Sanctions. Keep it up, WP. Cla68 (talk) 00:30, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge

I would caution the committee against making any rulings on content, which seems to be what this request is ultimately asking (banning only editors on a particular side of this dispute which would swing the article towards a particular POV). On a side note, I don't really know much about acupuncture but I looked it up at the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services which states "Results from a number of studies suggest that acupuncture may help ease types of pain that are often chronic such as low-back pain, neck pain, and osteoarthritis/knee pain. It also may help reduce the frequency of tension headaches and prevent migraine headaches. Therefore, acupuncture appears to be a reasonable option for people with chronic pain to consider." It does not describe it as "pseudoscience" so Kww may be mistaken that there's a scientific consensus that acupuncture is pseudoscience. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:19, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

@ArbCom: Our article on acupuncture contains the word "pseudoscience" seven times. Even if acupuncture is not a pseudoscience, as long as editors and/or sources are making this connection, this should be covered under the pseudoscience sanctions, at least the parts that pertain to it being a pseudoscience. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:25, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Arthur Rubin

One reason that WP:AE might not be workable is that it could lead to anomalous results if uninvolved admins are polarized. In theory, both John and Kww could rationally consider themselves uninvolved, and would consider different editors as ignoring WP:MEDRS. Certainly, other uninvolved editors (and admins) could easily interpret WP:MEDRS differently, leading to, as Kww points out above, wheel wars. I do not consider myself uninvolved. Perhaps a motion clarifying how the pseudoscience decision relates to this article might avoid problems, even if it might lead to the WP:WRONGVERSION. I generally agree with Kww; the uncivil behavior by the scientists (in general) follows the (polite) WP:IDHT from the acupuncturists in regard pseudoscience. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:23, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Sandstein

As one of the admins working at WP:AE, I've been asked by Thryduulf on my talk page to offer an opinion about whether the "acupuncture" topic is part of the "pseudoscience" topic area for which discretionary sanctions are authorized. As far as I can tell, the question of whether acupuncture is a pseudoscience is a matter of contention between proponents of acupuncture and others, but there are, at least, reliable sources that discuss its alleged status as a pseudoscience or fringe science. As such, acupuncture is at least a topic "relating to pseudoscience and fringe science, broadly interpreted", and consequently subject to discretionary sanctions. However, like arbitration generally, AE cannot resolve content disputes (such as whether some piece of content is neutral or not). It can only address conduct problems, such as edit-warring or persistent tendentious editing.  Sandstein  14:13, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Jehochman

Please make a motion clarifying whether or not AltMed topics are subject to discretionary sanctions under the pseudoscience decision. You obviously aren't saying they are pseudoscience, just saying that you want those remedies applied there because its the same problem needing the same solution. That's the one simple thing you can do to help resolve this (any many other similar) issue(s). Take away the potential objection that will surely be made by any tendentious editors brought to AE. Jehochman 14:55, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Statement by mostly uninvolved User:Robert McClenon

This case request, like the one about Malaysian Airlines Flight 17, is a request for the ArbCom to accept a case about a topic that already falls within an area of existing ArbCom discretionary sanctions. I asked what the filing party expected the ArbCom to do that the administrators at Arbitration Enforcement could not do. I didn't get an answer that I understood. More importantly, the arbitrators didn't get an answer that they understood. To the extent that I did understand the answer, it insulted the Arbitration Enforcement administrators by implying that they couldn't get it right. At least this time, the filing party does say what he wants the ArbCom to do. He wants the ArbCom to topic-ban certain pro-acupuncture editors. He doesn't say why he thinks that AE can't deal with those editors. The implication is that different admins will have different standards of how much tolerance there is for reasoning that is partly pseudo-scientific. My own observation is that, although the rules for discretionary sanctions allow any uninvolved administrator to impose topic-bans, topic-bans are in fact only imposed after discussion between several respected administrators with different standards, so that AE is a good substitute for new arbitration by multiple respected arbitrators with different standards. I ask the filing party to explain why arbitration enforcement will not be effective. I trust that if there is no plausible answer, the arbitrators will decline the case. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:48, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I am mostly uninvolved. My only real involvement was to close an RFC on a different traditional Asian healing philosophy, Ayurveda, asking whether Ayurveda was pseudo-science. I concluded that there was consensus that it was only pseudo-science to the extent that scientific claims were made, and that its roots were in religion rather than science, and were not pseudo-science because they preceded the concept of modern science. That issue was resolved using a dispute resolution procedure without arbitration or arbitration enforcement. This issue may require arbitration enforcement, but why does it require new arbitration? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:48, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved Guy Macon

This dispute appears to involve not only Acupuncture, but also Traditional Chinese medicine#Acupuncture and moxibustion, Acupuncture point#Scientific research, List of acupuncture points#Locations and basis, Meridian (Chinese medicine)#Scientific view of traditional Chinese meridian theory, Qi#Scientific view, and possibly Electroacupuncture.

I am concerned about the claim that one side of the content dispute in question is in general staying within the rules while the other side is not. If true, arbcom could be in the position of taking sides in the content dispute simply by sanctioning those who are misbehaving and not sanctioning those who are not. One could argue that this is the price you pay for not following Misplaced Pages's behavioral guidelines, but one could also argue that the end result would violate WP:NPOV.

If this arbitration request is denied, I think it should be made clear whether it is denied and the topic is subject to arbitration enforcement and/or discretionary sanctions under the pseudoscience case or whether it is denied and not subject to arbitration enforcement and/or discretionary sanctions -- implying that behavioral problems should be brought up at WP:ANI and content disputes should be brought up at WP:DRN. Otherwise there will no doubt be a clarification request asking that very question. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:39, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Comment form Harry Mitchell

Since Thryduulf asked my opinion on whether this could be handled through the existing discretionary sanctions so I'll offer a few thoughts. I offer no opinion on whether the case should be accepted, but these thoughts might inform the decision:

• Discretionary sanctions work well over relatively broad topic areas, usually influenced by real-world disputes that are being re-fought on Misplaced Pages, where a large number of editors line up on sides and where POV pushing, edit-warring, and other misconduct are rife. In order for discretionary sanctions to be effective, they need to widel known-about and understood, and violations of the standards of conduct need to be reported to admins. So to contrast two examples, they work well in the Israel-Palestine topic area (which, even seven years after the case, still accounts for about 50% of the workload at AE) because all the established editors there are familiar with the standards expected and there is no lack of zeal in reporting; the effectiveness of the BLP discretionary sanctions (and their predecessor, BLP special enforcement) is more open to question, possibly because of a lack of awareness, the less clear boundaries, or just because admins enjoy widespread community support for BLP enforcement and don't need to invoke the discretionary sanctions.
• Acupuncture falls within the discretionary sanctions on psuedoscience; whether it is pseudoscience is a matter of (fierce) debate, but it is clearly related to the topic area. Even if it weren't, the dispute over whether acupuncture is pseudoscience would clearly fall under the remit of the pseudoscience discretionary sanctions.
• While I have no opinion on acupuncture itself, the problem here seems to be that the article and its talk page are dominated by editors on both sides who have extremely strong opinions. One side happens to have the support of a lot of established editors and the odd adminsitrator, but that doesn't make that side right or the other side wrong per se. I haven't looked into the matter deeply enough to comment on whether there are serious conduct issues beyond heated debate in a content dispute. An ArbCom-mandated RfC, widely advertised and perhaps with suffrage requirements (to prevent brand-new SPAs from muddying the waters) and perhaps without the participation of the parties to the current dispute, might be able to put the issue of how acupuncture should be covered to bed?

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:14, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Acupuncture: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <0/4/0/2>-Acupuncture-2015-01-05T00:40:00.000Z">

Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse/other)

• I'm awaiting more statements before opining one way or the other on this, but I would like to see comments from those wanting a case addressing why enforcing the existing pseudoscience discretionary sanctions at AE would not work. Thryduulf (talk) 00:40, 5 January 2015 (UTC)"> ">
  • I'm leaning decline now. I take the point that it is not agreed whether acupuncture is pseudoscience, but the discretionary sanctions actually apply to "Pseudoscience and Fringe science" because (at least in part) there was a similar discussion about whether cold fusion is or is not pseudoscientific, and I don't see that there is a dispute that acupuncture is one of these. I have opined in the past (but not as an arbitrator at that point) that if there are reliable sources calling something pesudoscience or pseudoscientific (regardless of whether other sources agree) then these discretionary apply, without that implying anything about whether it is or is not pseudoscientifc for article content purposes. Together with my colleagues comments below, it is now clear that the Committee regard the pseudoscience discretionary sanctions as applying to acupuncture. If a formal motion is necessary we could do that, but I'm not sure it's necessary.
    All that said, I'd like to see the opinion of one or more uninvolved experienced AE admins for their opinion of whether they think AE would be able to handle this. Absent their strong opinion that it would be ineffective at resolving the dispute though I anticipate declining. Thryduulf (talk) 10:15, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Decline a full case. I see though that there is a legitimate uncertainty about whether this is covered by the pseudoscience and fringe science discretionary sanctions or not and that is something that we the committee can clarify. Given that there appears to be no objections to applying DS to the topic, only debate about whether they already are, there seem to be two useful ways forward - either officially stating that (as I suggested before my term as an arbitrator) any topic where there are reliable sources that describe it as pseudoscience or fringe science are covered by those discretionary sanctions (without passing judgement on whether they are or not) and noting that this explicitly includes accupuncture; or passing a motion ammending the "pseudoscience and fringe science" discretionary sanctions to "pseudoscience, fringe science and complementary and alternative medicine". Thryduulf (talk) 13:12, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
• Awaiting statements, I'd especially like to hear from John. I do not, looking at he request, get why Kww's statement "any effort for me to resolve it would likely provoke wheel-warring between me and User:John" is true. Surely two experienced admins don't enter a situation expecting it to end in wheel warring? Courcelles 01:07, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
• @Roger Davies: I don't think we need to decide that question at all, actually. DS are authorised for "all pages relating to pseudoscience and fringe science, broadly interpreted." I'd contend that anything there is a reasonable debate as to its status as pseudoscience or fringe science would be covered, without expecting admins (or us) to sort through the actual label applicable; that there is a debate is enough to hit the broadly interpreted clause. If there is agreement on this, and if a motion is seen as desirable, I:m happy to pass one, but I'm not seeing the need for a full case here. Courcelles 17:27, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
• @Kww: why haven't you taken this to AE? --Guerillero | My Talk 01:17, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
  • That sounds like you are coming here instead of AE because you think that we are going to come up with the outcome you want. Further, if you think that AE will think that you are involved than you most likely are and should not be in the equation for wheel warring. Decline and refer to AE --Guerillero | My Talk 01:59, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
• Decline, agreed with Guerillero. Seraphimblade 04:35, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
• Comment I suppose the million-dollar is whether acupuncture is fringe science or not. I really don't know the answer to that but I do note that it is widely available as a state-provided therapy in the UK and France. If it is fringe science, it's covered by DS but if it isn't, it isn't.  Roger Davies 14:47, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
  • @Courcelles: That's true enough though some of these alternative medicines articles end up as neverending feuds between sceptics and enthusiasts, and I'd hate AE to have to make a long list of which bits are covered and which bits aren't. If it's messy, these things always come back to us, which much wasted effort in the meantime,  Roger Davies 17:38, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
    • Homeopathy is considered fringe but is still available through the UK's National Health Service. The list of such treatments includes acupuncture, aromatherapy, chiropractic, homeopathy, massage, osteopathy and clinical hypnotherapy. So it can be fringe science and still provided by a state health service. Dougweller (talk) 11:03, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
• Decline The issue is not whether acupuncture (and indeed, homeopathy, aromatherapy, iridology etc.) is a pseudoscience or not, but whether it falls under the heading of pages relating to pseudoscience and fringe science, broadly interpreted, as per the Pseudoscience DS ruling. Any reasonable broad interpretation of "relating to pseudoscience and fringe science" would include TCM and acupuncture, since both have been extensively discussed in this light; it doesn't actually matter whether they genuinely are fringe sciences. This therefore falls within the purview of the existing discretionary sanctions. It is therefore unncessary for the Committee to provide an additional ruling specifically for this article. Yunshui _水 14:38, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
• Decline. Agree with @Yunshui and Thryduulf:, and others. @Roger Davies: I don't think it matters whether it is fringe science; its still related to the subject area, and debate as to whether it is or isn't is most certainly under DS. LFaraone 15:03, 6 January 2015 (UTC)