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Film: American C‑class

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Missing information: Kyle's death

Obviously this article will become more fleshed out when the film is released, but I find it odd that there's no mention of how Chris Kyle's death may have affected its production. Maybe it's too early to hear whether his death is going to be portrayed or not, but right now the production section is just a timeline of who became attached to the film. Kyle died in that time frame, and there's nothing we can say about it? --BDD (talk) 14:24, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

BDD, I found this that mentions Cooper's pushing-forward after Kyle's death. Erik (talk | contrib) 14:52, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Release date was a limited release

The article currently lists December 25, 2014 as the release date. However, only a limited release occured on this date. The full release is not until January 16, 2015. Perhaps the December release date should be annotated as a limited release, and the full release added to the article. --EncycloComp (talk) 20:37, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Production budget

The production budget was $60 million. An editor tried changing this to $27.2 million without explanation.

• "Warner Bros.' budget for the film, though, remained a slender $60 million." Alex Ben Block (January 2, 2015). "The Making of 'American Sniper': How an Unlikely Friendship Kickstarted the Clint Eastwood Film". The Hollywood Reporter. Retrieved January 5, 2015. {{cite web}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)

The production also received tax rebates. This does not change the production budget (a coupon, or rebate does not change the retail price, no matter what sales and marketing might like to claim). The budget is still $60 million. It is interesting and would be worth adding to the article that the production budget received tax rebates but the infobox should not be changed to the after tax figures, and definitely not without a proper explanation.

• "received approval for a California tax credit for $6.8 million to offset $34 million in production costs" Richard Verrier (April 23, 2014). "Eastwood starts shooting 'American Sniper' at Santa Clarita ranch". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved January 8, 2015. {{cite web}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)

There is a much bigger problem with the edit, it is incorrect. The LA Times never claims the production budget was $27.2 million. The IP user took $34 million production costs and subtracted $6.8, to get that figure. Unfortunately, the IP user has misread the article. They never said the budget was $34 million, they never even said it was the total production costs, only that part of the production costs could be written off. (They can't get write off for other costs that were not releated to work done in California.) -- 109.77.30.198 (talk) 22:12, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Critical response

The critical response section has a few problems, it is sorely lacking in criticism for starters, and is light on analysis too.

76.173.198.38 added an article from The Guardian newspaper and included several unflattering quotes from Chris Kyle. The article itself was about how several critics of the film, and particularly the heroic portrayal of Kyle, had been subject to a backlash and threats from supports of the film.

I think this change was added in good faith if a bit harsh, and the article itself speaks to the differences between the film and the reality as well as summarizing the responses of several critics. I didn't think it was appropriate to include it at the start of the Critical response section, but I thought it was worth making an effort to include it. I made several ongoing efforts to improve the edit. Firstly I moved this it to the end of the critical response section, instead of at the start. The initial edit seemed harsh so I tried to soften the tone. In further edits I tried to make it clearer that Lindy West was covering a series of articles from several critics, who criticized the portrayal of Kyle as a hero and the backlash against those critics.

The edit was deleted several times, some with no explanation at all and others claiming it was inappropriate as it was not a film review from professional critic. After it was deleted 76.173.198.38 added exactly the same change again, and didn't respond to my suggestions present the points differently. The WP:MOSFILM guidelines do not exclude commentary or Critical response from other sources, in fact many film articles include responses from notable non-film critics (e.g. other directors). In some ways the threats against critics is actually audience response, but I don't want to over emphasize it by creating a separate Audience response or Controversy section.

The last version I added is fairly mild and I believe is in keeping with WP:NPOV. I'm disappointed by the repeated deletes and lack of engagement or response to any of my efforts to improve the addition. I have little time to pursue this further. Despite the fact that the reviews were positive the Critical response section needs more analysis and insight, and the article by Lindy West seemed to be a good way to do that in a short and to-the-point way. -- 109.79.83.196 (talk) 06:33, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Chris Kyle died two years before the film. He didn't make any statements regarding the film. This article is about the film. The source you point isn't about the film. It's not from a film critic. Instead, it's being used as a vehicle to criticize aspects outside the scope of the film. Pretend this is "The Hobbit" and some busybody used it to criticize Welsh social structure. "But it's a movie" should be the first words you use to dismiss it. It doesn't belong here. --DHeyward (talk) 10:15, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

"He didn't make any statements regarding the film" never at any stage did anyone suggest Chris Kyle said anything about the film.

You should not simply dismiss information that explains how a film is different from the source material, you should accept that these edits were made in good faith and explain how you think this information should be presented. The Production section already includes information explaining that the enemy sniper was a fiction introduced by Spielberg. But that isn't relevant either, Eastwood presents Kyle in a way that allows viewers to make their own interpretation, and viewers have interpreted him as a hero and critics have experienced a backlash for calling him less than heroic.

I think you are taking an excessively narrow view of what the Critical response section can and should include. People add to articles in good faith, deleting doesn't improve an article and the reasons given (or not given at all) haven't made any suggestions as to how alternative view points might be included in an appropriate way or other part of the article. It is starting to look like editors are deliberately removing criticism. -- 109.79.83.196 (talk) 20:04, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I've stayed out of this issue until now, but it does look to me like the addition of the Lindy West article is WP:FRINGE and should not be included. The "critics" you keep referring to are bloggers, not film critics. Their opinion appears to be anti-war driven, and the backlash against them by a few people on Twitter is also agenda driven. It is not a response to the subject of this article - the film. - Gothicfilm (talk) 20:19, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Bradley Cooper responds. Cooper isn't ignoring the criticism that is being dismissed here. He's not accepting it but he is engaging with it. -- 109.79.83.196 (talk) 21:11, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

LOL. He treats it just as we are treating it. Basically, it should not be used as a tool to push an agenda regarding the war in Iraq or war in general. This is not a debate and WP is not a battleground. --DHeyward (talk) 21:22, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree. In that interview Cooper says he does not want the film used to push this agenda. - Gothicfilm (talk) 22:08, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

You want to ignore that it is happening, that doesn't mean it isn't happening. I'm surprised he even went as far as acknowledging it, but that he noticed it and responded to goes to show it is more than fringe. I don't think it will blow over and I think it will need to be noted in the article in some form or another, and I think more effort should have been made to decide in what way it gets included instead of ignoring it and hoping it will go away. -- 109.76.166.183 (talk) 22:48, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

115.64.210.103 (talk) 11:45, 17 January 2015 (UTC) I'm not 100% about "Some critics in the media however seemed to misunderstand the film and especially Eastwood's stance on war." Someone's interpretation of a film, especially as contentious as this one, is inherently subjective and I don't think any critic is "misunderstanding" the film or its message.

According to WP:UNDUE: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." This is a Misplaced Pages policy which editors should normally follow, unless there is consensus to do otherwise.

If multiple reliable sources writing about American Sniper say that Kyle said that killing Iraqis was "fun," and "I hate the damn savages," then those viewpoints belong in the article. In fact multiple reliable sources do say that, as you can easily confirm by doing a Google search for those terms and selecting the reliable sources (not just blogs). That includes the Washington Post, The Atlantic, The Guardian, Alternet, and Salon. By definition, viewpoints supported by multiple reliable sources are not WP:FRINGE. Therefore, under Misplaced Pages policy, they belong in the article. Deleting it from the article is WP:CENSOR.

DHeyward says that these viewpoints are not about the film. That's wrong. They are about the film. Misplaced Pages articles about films aren't limited to discussing the script. For example, the article on Selma (film) has a section on controversies about the accuracy of the film.

Those who want to delete well-sourced material must establish WP:CONSENSUS. They haven't achieved consensus. The deletions should be restored. --Nbauman (talk) 15:33, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

https://storify.com/RaniaKhalek/american-sniper-chris-kyle-in-his-own-words Chris Kyle in his own words.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.155.84.130 (talk) 17:31, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Runtime

Template:Infobox film says to round the runtime to the nearest minute. When rounding numbers in base 10, 5 or more gets rounded up to 10. When rounding seconds to minutes 30 seconds or more gets rounded up to the next minute, 29 seconds or less gets rounded down.

User:Gothicfilm mentioned Template:Infobox film when rounding the runtime (of 29 seconds) should be rounded up but the template only says that the number should be rounded, it does not specify that they numbers should be "rounded-up". I have attempted to correct this but my edit has not been taken in good faith and Gothicfilm instead accused me of edit warring. -- 109.76.129.126 (talk) 04:00, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Wow. The template is clear.

The Template talk page is clear as mud, there is an unfinished draft proposal to round up the runtime and that Gothicfilm wants to use. If there was consensus and the discussion was finished and the template documentation was updated your attitude might make sense but you're showing a serious lack of good faith by insisting things be done a certain way based on unfinished draft discussions. -- 109.76.129.126 (talk) 04:16, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

You did the same revert twice in less than four hours. The guideline does not say we must round to the nearest minute. There's another issue involved, which I started a thread on. There's a good reason for what I'm doing. Now I see you're also debating by edit summary with someone else over Box Office Mojo numbers. You should really register an account, rather than going from one IP to another. I suppose it may be dynamic, but that doesn't help anyone check what you're doing. I assume you're the same person/different IP as in the section above.

Here's the discussion at Template talk:Infobox film that I gave a link to: -- Gothicfilm (talk) 04:39, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Running time - Proposal to round up to the next full minute

While otherwise being very reliable, I've noticed the British Board of Film Classification often does not include the opening company logo in its runtime database. This is very surprising, as it's a part of the film, technically speaking. Perhaps they do this as it can vary in different territories if a film has different distributors. Because of this I propose we amend the documentation to say every film's runtime should be rounded up. I believe this would be good policy even without the BBFC issue, since if you cut off a 123 min 05 second film at 123 minutes, you've lost the last five seconds. Not a big deal, but that five seconds is technically part of the film. I noticed this because I saw that the runtime for a film was a full minute longer than what the BBFC listed. The only cause I could guess at were the opening company logos. There were three or four of them in succession, and they took up nearly a minute. Then I checked other films and saw it again. This may be original research, but there's no reason not to make it a guideline to always round up the runtime to the next full minute. - Gothicfilm (talk) 01:56, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Does this occur on every film? The BBFC will only measure what they classify, so if they have cut the film that may explain the shorter length. It would help if you could give us some examples so we can get to the bottom of it. Betty Logan (talk) 03:58, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

I first noticed this a few weeks ago. If you really want I can look at the articles I've edited in the last month and try to track them down, but I can assure you they were all listed as being passed uncut by the BBFC. I routinely check the credits, runtimes and other issues as I see films and correct them as necessary on WP. It's easy to check runtimes since DVDs and DVRs give them to the second (just make sure you have the correct start/end point). Like I said, I was quite surprised when one was a minute off (until then, with rounding there was no problem. I believe it was Bullet to the Head, which was listed as This work was passed uncut, and is what sparked me to post this now. Someone reverted my rounding up the BBFC runtime.) Usually company logos don't take up quite that much screen time. If it's possible to track down the BBFC policy on including/not including logos I'd be all for it, but the issue is resolved in simplest fashion if we just agree to always round up the BBFC's listed minute/second to the next full minute. We should be doing that anyway for films listed at X minutes/30(+) seconds. - Gothicfilm (talk) 04:53, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

If this is one of those little details that changes between prints or countries, wouldn't we most commonly use the original theatrical print as the basis? (And rounding up seems like a good idea.) --Ring Cinema (talk) 15:49, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

The Internship is the latest example I've found of a film with a longer runtime than indicated by the BBFC. This case is more minor, but it is still illustrative of the issue: BBFC lists 119:15, but that is about 15 seconds short. As said above, anything 30 seconds or more should be rounded up to the next full minute, so The Internship should be listed as 120 minutes. - Gothicfilm (talk) 19:25, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

HOW MANY SNIPES DID HE GET?

Over 255 confirmed kills but how many of them were snipes? As the worlds foremost researcher on spin headshots and jumping snipes I need to know for my book, "Snippets of Snipers and there Sick Red Eyes." THIS ARTICLE IS NOT COMPLETE WITHOUT ACCURATE SNIPER KILL INFORMATION. I am pretty sure SOMEONE ON THE INTERNET has information regarding this and PROBABLY has a contact at the Department of Defense Sniper Division Epsilon Team Six.

Thank you! Sniping is the MOST IMPORTANT thing in the world today! There is NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING that will advance us as a civilization more than the glorification of no-scoping people from across the desert! As a part time Kindergarten Substitute I would LOVE to discuss the ACCURATE art-form of Sniping in all its glory. Kids need to know about sniping and why its necessary. Like my grandad always said, "A snipe in the heart is worth 2 in the bush."

Thank You OgreSnipe! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ogresnipe (talk • contribs) 02:38, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Worst written controversy section i've ever seen

Seriously, this section is just disgraceful. There are tons and tons of articles available on the controversy and all you include is a one-sided quote and then a link to Breitbart, which isn't even a reliable source, but a political rag. Whoever made that section has utterly broken WP:POV and has failed as a Misplaced Pages editor. Silverseren 18:43, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

How many dead people count as "kills"?

If the wording of the article says '255 kills, 160 of which were officially confirmed', surely that's only 160 kills. Maybe the chap is guilty of doing original research with non peer-reviewed numbers of murdered children? Safebreaker (talk) 12:07, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

If you read the extensive media coverage of this film, what's going on is that all snipers keep handwritten kill logs. The U.S. military draws a distinction between kills solely reported by the sniper alone and kills where at least one other American soldier witnessed the kill. What appears to be undisputed in the media coverage is that Kyle's number of confirmed kills is about 160. --Coolcaesar (talk) 18:53, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

References

p== Sourced content is being removed because someone does not like it ==

Two SPA IPs appear to be removing sourced content, including comments by Zaid Jilani, Michael Moore and Matt Taibbi, under the incorrect edit summary the material is 'overwrought' and 'undercited'. It appears the IPs are removing the content because they do not like it.

And by the way it is interesting that the IPs claim they aim to "shorten" the criticism section while in fact the 'reception' section is extremely long and needs shortening - not the criticism section.

Moreover, the IPs claim they aim to shorten the 'criticism' section while insisting on re-adding the redundant fact Zaid Jilani is Pakistani-American, which is obvious from his Misplaced Pages page. I've removed the phrase 'Pakistani-American' but they keep returning it to the article.

And what is the reason for the removal of the following? "Matt Taibbi wrote that "American Sniper is almost too dumb to criticize." "

Please stop edit warring and instead discuss your reasoning (if any) for the removal of sourced content. IjonTichy (talk) 22:49, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Salon and Rolling Stone are WP:RSs. Jilani's points have been made repeatedly by many WP:RSs, which give them WP:WEIGHT. They should be included, under WP:NPOV. If nobody defends the deletions in Talk, then any of us should feel free to revert the deletions. --Nbauman (talk) 23:42, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

I haven't been involved in this other than my comment in the Critical response section above. A discussion cannot be ignored because editors don't repeat themselves when the subject is brought up again. The point of WP:UNDUE is to not give more attention to minority viewpoints. - Gothicfilm (talk) 00:23, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

The sources expressing criticism of the film may be in the minority, but they are a significant minority. Many scholars, academics, columnists, journalists (not only film critics) and other commentators criticized various aspects of the film. IjonTichy (talk) 01:45, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

• Zaid Jilani is but one of many "writers" that misrepresent the story of Kyle claiming HE shot people from the Superdome after Hurricane Katrina. Kyle did fabricate the story of snipers shooting persons from atop he Superdome but he never once stated that he did so himself. The orginal story is from an op-ed written by another navy seal and is here at this link. The news media has bamboozled people into the lie that Kyle claimed he was there...he never made that claim. Jilani apparently is too slovenly to do his own research before writing a "news" piece. Since Salon pieces like this are so shoddy from a reporting standpoint no reason to not follow undue weight and eliminate such nonsense.--MONGO 04:55, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Also note that people like Michael Moore are backpedaling on their claims that it is about Kyle (and even less so the movie). All criticism should be about the movies and not what some random person off the street thought about what was omitted. --DHeyward (talk) 07:05, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

1. "American Sniper Home Page". American Sniper Official Movie Site. Retrieved 2 January 2015.
2. 'American Sniper' is almost too dumb to criticize (2015-01-23), Rolling Stone Magazine

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