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Revision as of 20:49, 19 July 2006

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This page is within the scope of WikiProject China, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of China related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChinaWikipedia:WikiProject ChinaTemplate:WikiProject ChinaChina-related NA This page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A FALUN GONG DISCUSSION FORUM! Please, add new messages pertaining to editing the FLG article at the bottom of this page.

Archived discussions

It is suggested that new readers of this "talk page" read the archived discussions below. It is likely that an issue of concern has already been discussed. As a result, a would-be poster can save the Wikipedian community time and effort spent on otherwise rehashing an issue if this responsbility is undertaken.
Please remember that this isn't the place to vent our spleens in condemnation or gush praise for Falun Gong itself as much as it is to comment on the actual article content. If we have an objectively neutral, factual article one hopes the truth will speak for itself, however we may subjectively perceive it.

• /archive1, 1 April 2003 - 29 May 2005
• /Archive2, 29 May 2005 to 30 July 2005
• /Archive3, 31 July 2005 to 20 January 2006
• /Archive4, 21 January 2006 to 2 March 2006
• /Archive5, 3 March 2006 to 21 March 2006
• /Archive6, 22 March 2006 to 10 April 2006
• /Archive7, 10 April 2006 to 25 April 2006
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• /Archive9, 26 May 2006 to June 2, 2006
• /Archive10 June 2, 2006 to June 10, 2006
• /Archive11 June 10, 2006 to June 27, 2006
• /Archive12 June 27, 2006 to July 11, 2006

To Do List

Template:Todo priority

Breaking the intro down further

Zhen, shan, ren wording and straw poll

Okay, we've been spinning our wheels for a while here so let's try breaking it down into smaller pieces. According the consensus on the central concepts, the first concept we have to summarize is Zhen, shan, ren (Truthfulness, Compassion and Endurance). Here's the latest complete suggestion from Samuel. (I'm not including Andre's because he has some incomplete references.)

According to Li when one cultivates his/her xinxing (mind nature or character), he/she can assimilate to the supreme nature of the universe--Truthfulness, Compassion, Forebearance.

Can we get a straw poll on just this sentence? CovenantD 14:26, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

It should be a little clearer that Li posits "Truthfulness, Compassion, Forebearance" as the "supreme nature of the universe". It could perhaps be done with different punctuation. Anyway, I'm off on holiday for a few days, I'll look in when I get back! --Fire Star 火星 16:20, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

From the quotes below, Why Doing Cultivation Exercises Doesn’t Increase Gong

So to put it another way, you have to care about character cultivation, cultivate by the nature of the universe—to be True, Good, and Endure—and get rid of those ordinary people’s desires, those character flaws, and those thoughts about doing bad things.

Falun Dafa’s Special Features

So I think you now know how gong comes about: the gong that really decides your level doesn’t in fact come from exercises. It comes from cultivation. It has to do with you cultivating yourself, and how when you improve your character in the midst of ordinary people, and when you assimilate to the universe's nature, then the universe’s nature doesn’t hold you back, and you’re able to rise higher. That’s when your virtue starts evolving into gong, and as your character improves, it goes right up with it. That’s how it works.

Note here xinxing is translated as "character". It seems to me, the cultivation of xinxing is towards the goal of assimilating the universe's nature. Or the xinxing cultivation has to be according to the nature of universe. samuel's version is almost ok to me except I still feel a little bit different with what I feel. Fnhddzs 16:54, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Fnhddzs, I think that the way Samuel words it allows for different reasons and the ultimate end result without being specific as to reasons. In other words, your interpretation is implicitly in there already. Having said that, if everybody else agrees to this version, would you be able to accept it? CovenantD 17:36, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Seems you English speakers think we have the same meaning, then I am fine. Fnhddzs 18:57, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

This seems ok to me. I apologize for not being present these last few days, it has been an incredibly busy week for me. This is the most I can say at the momement. I don't think this situation will last long, so I should be participating more again soon. Good luck! Mcconn 17:47, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

It is also okey for me, except one thing: Omido 18:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

:Just so we know what we're voting on, this is Samuel's version and I support it:   --Tomananda 06:35, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

We still need to hear from Dilip, and maybe Olaf, Miborovsky, Kent888 and Cj cawley.

Omido's addition and a straw poll

"According to Li when one cultivates his/her xinxing (mind nature or character) and lets go of attachments and desires, he/she can assimilate to the supreme nature of the universe--Truthfulness, Compassion, Forebearance."

I think it is very important that we include that can only cultivate their xinxing by letting go of attachments and desires. One cannot assimilate to the nature of the universe and not letting go of attachments, so it is important that it is included. Master Li has also said that cultivating with attachments is not real cultivation, but one can realize his own attachments during the cultivation and gradually remove them. Omido 18:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Straw poll on adding this to Samuel's suggestion. Please state an opinion on both parts. People may agree with the original wording and disagree with the addition or agree to both. CovenantD 18:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

agree to addition to the original. I will second this addition to Samuel's version by presenting a quote in the very beginning (the third paragraph of the first talk) of Zhuan Falun

I’ll tell you a truth: the whole process of cultivation is a process of constantly getting rid of human attachments.

So in my understanding, removing attachments is the central or the whole thing of xinxing cultivation. This idea is quite much the whole idea of xinxing cultivation. Then Samuel's version would be quite good. Fnhddzs 19:08, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I just added a few words. --Samuel Luo 21:09, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Samuel, does this mean that you agree to the addition? CovenantD 01:35, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I understand that we are voting on a sentence to replace the last sentence of the first paragraph of my suggestion here. Am I right?--Samuel Luo 07:23, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

There are two related straw polls happening here, but both are just about the second sentence of the 1st paragraph. The first is based on your wording as shown here and the second is an addition proposed by Omido as shown here. I'm guessing that you support your own wording and want to know if you agree to the addition by Omido. CovenantD 07:33, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

• According to Li when a person strictly followes the Falun Gong teachings in cultivating his/her xinxing (mind nature or character) and letting go of attachments and desires, he/she can assimilate to the supreme nature of the universe--Truthfulness, Compassion, Forebearance.

Just so we know what we're voting on, this is Samuel's version and I support it: --Tomananda 06:35, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

A grammar question. Why no "to"? "followes" --> "follows"Fnhddzs 21:30, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if I can give you a rule of grammar to cover it. When used next to "assimilate" it's a redundant word. CovenantD 23:47, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. But why the translators put a "to" there? I believe they have native English speakers too. Fnhddzs 00:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I looked up answers.com . There is an example:

To adapt. It was difficult to get the new baby to assimilate to his parents' schedule.

Now I think we have to have this "to" although it is right in grammar either way. Since the meaning in the Falun Gong teachings is to ask practitioners to cultivate their character to adapt to universe's nature, instead of letting the universe's nature adapting to us. I guess I am right this time :) Fnhddzs 00:12, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'm not attached to this at all. It just seems wrong to me. CovenantD 07:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Andre's suggestion for the second sentence

Maybe you can inlcude my version in here too Covenant? the problem of the refferences has been solved by Fnhddzs already.--Andres18 00:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure, here you go. I've highlighted the differences and added a comment. CovenantD 01:35, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Practitioners believe that when cultivating their xinxing (heart and mind nature or translated as character), they can assimilate to the core principles of --Truthfulness, Compassion, Forebearance-- which are also referred to as the "cosmic characteristic"

Major differences

Samuel's places the authority on Li. Andre's places it on practitioners.

Addition of cosmic characteristic wording.

Comments - I think the first difference is a big one. We should be relying on the words of Li. For that reason alone, I think Samuel's phrasing is better. CovenantD 01:35, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

• I prefer Samuel's version. It is clearer in meaning and reads better. :-) --Samuel Luo 04:34, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Comments - I think cosmic characteristic is just another translation version of "nature of universe" . Well, the both seem quite close to me. I would add references to Samuel's if his is used. I think Andres' version uses longer sentences and reads better to me. Li also said the "truthfulness, benevolence and forbearance" are guiding principles for practitioners to conduct themselves . This idea is covered in Andres' version. The issue of whether practitioners believe or according to Li is not very important to me. Maybe the two versions could be combined somehow. Anyway, we are almost there. Fnhddzs 07:51, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion - I think we neednt keep repeating "According to Li Hongzhi".. Its quite clear we are refering to the teachings of Falun Dafa. I think we can write it as "In Falun Dafa, the process of cultivation is thought of to be one in which the practitioner assimilates to Truthfulness (Truth), Compassion and Endurance." Then, we can mention( In the next sentence or in a later paragraph) that "In Falun Dafa, Zen-Shan-Ren is considered the highest manifestation of the Buddha Law or Dharma(Fa) and the fundamental characteristic of the Cosmos." . I suggest these two sentences to introduce cultivation of Zhen-Shan-Ren. Dilip rajeev 10:48, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, we really do. Falundafa isn't a person and therefore can't teach anything. To suggest that it does implies that Misplaced Pages believes it exists outside of the postulations of Li. A parade example of weasel wording. It should be reported with a small degree of elegant variation so that we aren't always saying exactly the same thing, but the attribution ultimately belongs entirely in Li Hongzhi's lap, I'm afraid. --Fire Star 火星 12:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Dilip rajeev 15:12, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Dilip. I agree we make sure clarifying the source of point of view as Fire Star suggested. This article is to report Falun Gong. It is better to say "in" Falun Gong. And with the wording of "it is believed", "is thought of", we do not imply this is wikipedia's thoughts. We have a sentence to say Mr. Li is the Master. Of course everything of the teachings is from Mr. Li. Why we have to repeat this when we refer to teachings? If we put "according to Li", I think people may wonder why to repeat? Is there another possibile author of teachings? Fnhddzs 13:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it's fine to say both. The reader needs to understand that the teachings come from Mr. Li, but given this, since the system he teaches is called Falun Dafa, I think it's fine to say "In Falun Dafa it is believed...". Both ways are ok to me and I don't think we should overuse either of them. However, the problem with Andres version is that it says "practitioners believe". Well, practitioners believe it because it is a principle taught by Mr. Li and practitioners believe what Mr. Li says. So In this case it's better to say "According to Li..." or "In Falun Dafa it is taught..." As for Samual's version (with Omido's suggestion), I think it's good, but there's one little thing. Cultivating xinxing includes letting go of attachments and desires. So it would be better to say something like "...in cultivating his/her xinxing (mind nature or character), which includes letting go of attachments and desires,...". But this isn't the only aspect of xinxing, theres also virtue, "enduring", "awakening to things", and "enduring hardship". And this is only "to name a few things". So should we mention more of these things when refering to character? To make this a little clearer I've pasted Mr. Li's explanation of "character" from Lecture 1 of Zhuan Falun. Mcconn 15:52, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

So what is character? Character includes virtue (which is a type of matter), it includes enduring, it includes awakening to things, it includes giving up things—giving up all the desires and all the attachments that are found in an ordinary person—and you also have to endure hardship, to name just a few things. So it includes a lot of different things. You need to improve every aspect of your character, and only when you do that will you really improve. That’s one of the key factors in improving your potency.

ok. I agree with Mcconn. This way would be more accurate. Letting go attachments is not the whole thing of the xinxing cultivation. It is a part of it. I am sorry about my previous interpretation . With this straightened out and keeping in mind not overusing the wording of "according to Li" or "it is believed or thought" in the whole article, then either Andres or Samuel's version would become quite good. Anyway, we are almost there. It is fine to me to address the "Zhen-Shan-Ren" as principles as in Andres's version. It is also fine to me not to mention this as in Samuel's version. Fnhddzs 17:17, 6 July 2006 (UTC) A small thing. followes --> follows? Fnhddzs 17:21, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

If we're going to start writing long explanations on "what is character" here we will be straying from the task of writing an introduction, which by definition should be a consise review of why the this topic is notable, and what a reader can expect to find in the the article if he/she reads further. Yes, character "includes a lot of different things," as does Fa-rectification and Li's teachings on consumation. But if we ever expect to complete the introduction section, I hope we can focus more on writing just one sentece at a time, with the end goal of having, let's say, 3-4 paragraphs worth of "introduction." --Tomananda 19:36, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

No no. Mcconn just suggested to add "which includes" Fnhddzs 20:35, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Suggested lead by Steve block

Feel free to disregard this, but all the quotes from Li can be addressed in the article, a lead should not be so specific. Would people be happy with these three paragraphs?

Falun Gong, (Traditional Chinese: 法輪功; Simplified Chinese: 法轮功; pinyin: Fǎlún Gōng; literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law") also known as Falun Dafa, (Traditional Chinese: 法輪大法; Simplified Chinese: 法轮大法; pinyin: Fǎlún dàfǎ; lit. "Great Law of the Wheel of Law") is a system of mind and body cultivation introduced by Li Hongzhi (surname is Li) to the public in 1992. Falun Gong refers to five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation) and moral teachings. According to Li when one cultivates his/her xinxing (mind nature or character), he/she can assimilate to the supreme nature of the universe--Truthfulness, Compassion, Forebearance.

Add Paragraph Here about Salvation and Fa-rectification. We already agreed on these topics, but have not agreed on the wording. --Tomananda 23:19, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999. The Chinese government claims to have banned the group for its illegal activities. The Falun Gong claims the ban was a result of President of the People's Republic of China Jiang Zemin’s personal jealousy of the group's popularity. The suppression of Falun Gong is considered a human rights violation mainly by western human rights groups and politicians.

The exact number of Falun Gong practitioners is not known. A figure of 70 million practitioners was quoted in a New York Times article published April 27, 1999. According to the article, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government. According to a statement posted on November 1, 1999 the membership estimated by Beijing was 2.1 million. A main Falun Gong website states a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide, including 70 million in China.

Someone would have to stick the characters my system hasn't got in, instead of the question marks. Anyway have a think on that, feel free to ignore it but do try and work out what your lead should do with regards guidance at WP:LEAD. Don't try and cram too much detail into it, we want people to read the whole article. :) Steve block Talk 20:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Just so you know, Steve, we've already reached consensus on the last two paragraphs of the lead section. We've kind of been working backwards, from the easiest bits to the more difficult. Also so you know, we've also discussed what should be in the first paragraph or two here. You couldn't know that unless you dug through the last few archives and scoured this entire page so I thought I'd mention it. CovenantD 20:52, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I've seen the central concepts discussion, I just felt the discussion on the first paragraph was getting bogged down on the usage of quotes, and I don't see that the quotes should necessarily be in the lead. A lead should be a brief overview, and if you start using one set of quotes then people might want another set of quotes to balance, and those arguments and balancing are best made in the article itself. Steve block Talk 22:30, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Steve block We (anti-FG-editors) do not want to place Li's quotes here but simply mention FG’s core belief--salvation and Fa-rectification--and provide links to the body of the article where these terms are explained in greater detail. However practitioner-editors insisted on including Li quotes for reasons they have not fully explained. --Samuel Luo 04:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

About the right mostly, except the "moral" teachings --> "spiritual" teachings (I don't mind continuing our previous sentence by sentence vote and I will read more about what is a lead section and rethink) and I am going to propose a poll on using the name persecution. I feel very uncomfortable if we cheat ourselves that is not persecution, per the new source confirming organ harvesting on live Falun Gong practitioners even TODAY. Fnhddzs 20:40, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Update on consensus for the lead

Falun Gong, (simplified Chinese: 法轮功; traditional Chinese: 法輪功; pinyin: Fǎlún Gōng; literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law") also known as Falun Dafa, (simplified Chinese: 法轮大法; traditional Chinese: 法輪大法; pinyin: Fǎlún dàfǎ; lit. "Great Law of the Wheel of Law") is a system of mind and body cultivation introduced by Li Hongzhi (surname is Li) to the public in 1992. Falun Gong refers to five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation). According to Li when one cultivates his/her xinxing (mind nature or character), he/she can assimilate to the supreme nature of the universe--Truthfulness, Compassion, Forebearance.

We have consensus on the above. We have two suggestions for addition to this, seen below in bold text.
I'm calling a 24 hour straw poll before we move on to the next sentence on Fa-rectification.
Even if you have expressed an opinion on this before, please do so again so we have a clear idea of consensus.

I am sorry I don't agree with the above. Falun Gong refers to both teachings and exercises. Fnhddzs 16:36, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Straw poll #1

Please support or oppose with at most one or two sentences explaining your reason.

Falun Gong refers to five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation) and spiritual teachings.

How about "and spiritual teachings centered on moral improvement". It's more accurate and flows better into the next sentence. Mcconn 00:08, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. Flun Gong is about exercises. --Samuel Luo 06:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. Falun Gong (fah-luhn gong) – “Law Wheel Qigong.” Both the names Falun Gong and Falun Dafa are used to describe this practice. But not vice versa. --Yenchin 07:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Support. Falun Gong refers to both teachings and exercises, as what is called mind and body cultivation system. Otherwise, just a body cultivation system if following your thought? Fnhddzs 16:36, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

i support Mcconns version.Falun Gong is also about spiritual teachings and moral improvement, please remember that if you are going to state something like "Falun gong is just about excercises", then you have to back it up, or else i dont think it can be considered a valid disagreement. Also, I dont think using the term Falun Gong or Falun Dafa will affect the neutrality of the article.--Andres18 00:19, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

We need more input. Another 24 hours. CovenantD 01:22, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I oppose the version above, but I have a suggestion. The discussion on whether the terms "Falun Gong" and "Falun Dafa" refer to the same thing was already quite lengthy. Did we get nowhere in that discussion? I had thought that we had all basically reached consensus that although the terms literal meanings are different, they in fact refer to the same thing in use. To me this is undeniable and I don’t know why anyone would bother denying it, as no one is to gain either way. The paragraph confuses this by saying "Falun Gong refers to...", which almost suggests that "Falun Dafa doesn’t refer to..." The term "refers to" is the problem. I think if we instead use "includes" there won’t be such a problem. So this is what I'm suggesting:

"Falun Gong includes five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation) and spiritual teachings centered on moral improvement". Mcconn 09:13, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I Agree with this suggestion too, its much more accurate.--Andres18 14:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

We are trying for a quick description of Falungong. I agree with the original description we are voting on above. I don't agree with the pro-FLG addition. Trying to load the description with "moral improvement" - a very subjective claim that only devotees are likely to agree with, especially in light of Li's racist public statements - is blatant advertising. --Fire Star 火星 13:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Why is my suggestion a "pro-Falun Gong" version? Previously, non-Falun Gong practitioner editors were suggesting "moral teachings" rather than "spiritual teachings". Later, a practitioner suggested "spiritual teachings" instead. Doesn't my version try to incorperate both? In addition, since the following sentence talks about the focus of the practice, ie. cultivating xinxing, which is certainly a pursuit of moral improvement, it flows better and makes it clearer to add "centered on moral improvement" to the previous sentence. Other than this I just tried to clarify the use of the term "Falun Gong". You seem ever more accusing these days Five Star. 61.229.233.44 08:51, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm assuming that you are Mcconn who didn't log in. The addendum is pro-FLG because it is an attempt to imply early on that Li's teachings are morally sound. Later on, we can say Li or others claim them to be moral, but there isn't universal agreement as to whether they are. The same with FLG jargon like "cultivation" and "rectification", etc. Claims, not established fact, that should be qualified as such. My position has been constant since I started editing here. It is symptomatic of an ongoing pattern that has been with this article since day one. Li and FLG practitioners commonly say one thing while acting another. They say they aren't political, yet the suppression started as a result of their huge political protests in China. They say they aren't a religion, yet they address entirely religious subjects using religious language to the point that Li declares himself the only and universal saviour for all mankind throughout eternity. The capper is that Li has ordered his followers to deliberately obscure his "higher level" teachings to the public. FLG practitioners several times in the course of these discussions have accused non-practitioners of not being qualified to edit the article but I wholeheartedly disagree. I am sure that I can see right through the sleight of word that seemingly comes from the top, and I won't allow this article to slowly thereby become advertising for Li and FLG. And that is a declaratory statement based on a pattern of evidence. --Fire Star 火星 12:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Alright FireStar, then, what do you think about just "spiritual teachings" like it was initially proposed? is this the one you are agreeing to in your previous post?. If so, i can agree to it and think its a neutral way of defining this other aspect of falun gong. I think using "spiritual teachings" doesnt imply these are for moral improvement neither does it imply the contrary. If any of us, the editor practitioners, have done anything wrong then we apologize, but keep in mind we are not the only ones who have made mistakes during this process.--Andres18 17:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, after three days of a badly formed straw poll (my fault) it's clear we don't have consenus on adding anything to the above. CovenantD 16:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, not entirely my fault. Too many suggestions when I specifically asked for only support or oppose statements. CovenantD 17:28, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Straw poll #2

Please support or oppose with at most one or two sentences explaining your reason.

According to Li when one cultivates his/her xinxing (mind nature or character), which includes letting go of attachments and desires, he/she can assimilate to the supreme nature of the universe--Truthfulness, Compassion, Forebearance.

Discussion

How about "which includes, among other things, letting go of attachments and desires,". We don't want to create the impression that this is the only aspect of xinxing, but it's fine to mention it provided we make this clear. Mcconn 00:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I suggested this earlier:

According to Li when a person strictly followes the Falun Gong teachings in cultivating his/her xinxing (mind nature or character) and letting go of attachments and desires, he/she can assimilate to the supreme nature of the universe--Truthfulness, Compassion, Forebearance.

I will only agree to adding this "letting go of attachments and desires," when the bolded text is added. --Samuel Luo 06:22, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I think "Stricly following the teachings" sounds odd to me. I do not think I strictly follow the teachings even now and it is not required for practitioners although I think it is a goal to aim at. Cultivation is step by step. Fnhddzs 07:04, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Agree with condition. With emphasis on the exclusiveness as Samuel pointed out. No matter what you do, in the end, it's up to the "Falundafa shih zheng fa". --Yenchin 07:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with version #2 with the addition suggested by Samuel as well. Shall we call it a consensus? --Tomananda 07:55, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with Samuel's latest addition, but I agree with the earlier straw poll 2 and mconn's addition. Omido 09:18, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Support with Mcconn's addition. Fnhddzs 16:36, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Support with Mcconn's addition Xinxing is not only about letting go of attatchments, that is just a part of xinxing, there is also truthfulness benevolence forbearance, virtue, innate quality and so on. Perhaps letting go of attatchments can verify how assimilated you are to these principles but it doesnt constitute the entirety of xinxing. Well now, since we dont want such a long explanation then Mcconn's suggestion is just perfect.I disagree with samuel's suggestion because following the falun gong teachings, which is basically assimilating to these principles, which is also called "cultivating" is a gradual process, so strictness varies depending on how long you have practiced, the experiences you go through during this process and it also depends on your understanding of these teachings. If anyone could strictly follow falun gong teachings then there would be no cultivation.--Andres18 00:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, obviously this one needs more discussion and the straw poll was premature. CovenantD 01:26, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Can we discuss changing the term "suppression" to "persecution"

Thanks. "Persecution" is a widely used term. These are some citations in English, not considering other languages (such as European): U.N. Commission on Human Rights: Report of the Special Rapporteur on torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, Manfred Nowak, on his Mission to China from November 20 to December 2, 2005 (E/CN.4/2006/6/Add.6), March 10, 2006.REPORT INTO ALLEGATIONS OF ORGAN HARVESTING OF FALUN GONG PRACTITIONERS IN CHINA ...began its bloody persecution ... The Chinese government's persecution of Falun Gong followers is allegedly run by the notorious Office 6-10 Fnhddzs 21:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

• Avoid both persecution and suppression in the lead, would be my advice, instead sticking to the facts, that China has outlawed the practise and human rights groups condemn the move, if those are the facts. Avoid weasel words. You can introduce terms like suppression and persecution on the main body of the article through sourced quotes from reliable sources. Steve block Talk 22:27, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
• That sounds a good idea. Fnhddzs 22:56, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I would also suggest we remove mentioning what is reason for the ban. It is not a fact with consensus. The reason is quite debatable. We'd better avoid that in the introduction if the introduction is focused on facts. Fnhddzs 23:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Steve. We have a whole page entitled "Suppression" and that's where the details belong. --Tomananda 23:23, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with Steve that avoiding both persecution and suppression in the lead. But I would say the suppression page title should be changed to "persecution". Fnhddzs 14:26, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
• Agree with Steve block, wikipedia should provide the facts--what CCP and the FG say about the ban. Suppression is not neutral term how about Chinese government Vs Falun Gong? --Samuel Luo 04:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

• We'd remove the ban reasons in the lead. They are details and debatable. If you'd insist on putting reasons in the introduction, we'd put these quotes of what Master Li say in 1999 as below. Some Thoughts of Mine June 2, 1999

Actually, I know perfectly well why some people are bent on opposing Falun Gong. Just as reported by the media, there are too many people practicing Falun Gong. One hundred million people is indeed no small number.

Oh give me a break! Falun Gong's claim of having one hundred million practitioners is one of its biggest lies. Here in California, the FG has to rely on busing hundreds of practitioners from city to city to have a decent showing at parades and protests. On July 4th, practitioners were bused from northern California to Los Angeles to march in a parade. The entire Bay area is estimated to have fewer than 1,000 practitioners. --Tomananda 07:51, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I am just presenting a quote on a view from Master Li in 1999 why some people oppose Falun Gong. It is not a place to discuss how many practitioners here. Everybody has a way of estimation.Fnhddzs 16:39, 8 July 2006 (UTC)Also Master Li mentioned the main body of practitioners is in China. Fnhddzs 17:05, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda, everything you just said is POV. Speak about the article, not your own personal opinions. Omido 10:14, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I was responding to Fnhddzs's ludicrous boast of there being 100 million practitioners world wide with actual information about what the numbers are like in California, the biggest state in the US. In order to muster about 140 practitioners for a San Francisco Board of Suprevisors meeting earlier this year, the FG had to bus in about 80% of those folk from out of the city. This figure is not my POV, it came directly from one of the Supervisors who actually took a count. --Tomananda 22:48, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I dont think this contributes in anyway to the making of the article, please dont spend your time in vain attacking other editors. For those who might have a doubt, according to google ludicrous: absurd;incongruous;inviting ridicule. Even though you are entitled to disagree, please respect other people's statements--Andres18 01:01, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

It is fine with me if you would use a title Chinese government vs. Falun Gong. To me, that is a better title than "suppression". But I disagree wikipedia help to cover up the persecution facts if wikipedia is dedicated to report things. I suggest "persecution" must be mentioned. "persecution" cannot be replaced with the term "suppression". "persecution" is facts here, not a POV. Fnhddzs 14:26, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course persecution is facts. Millions of Falun Gong practitioners are tortured and detained every day, are you going to try to cover that up? People have to know the truths, they have to know about every evil act the Chinese Government have done against Falun Gong practitioners, tortures, organ havesting from live practitioners, killings, raping and many other evil horrific things. This is facts, there are so many witnesses and independent researchers in the west that have stepped forward and spoken about these things. I also have two independent books that are speaking about the persecution of Falun Gong, which I will use in the article to clarify the truth about the persecution. Omido 10:11, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Millions of FG practitioners are tortured and detained every day? Is there no limit to the unsubstantiated claims you're willing to make to promote Falun Gong? Master Li is quoted as once having said: "I have to exaggerate, or else no one would believe me." (Would you like the citation..I think I can find it fairly quickly.) --Tomananda 22:53, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I did not mean million, that was wrong. I meant alot of practitioners are being tortured and detained every day. Also, please show me the citation that you mentioned. We practitioners know that sometimes you say something without understanding what you are saying. Omido 10:17, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, thank you for correcting yourself on the numbers. I used the word exaggeration because that is exactly what the FG does in an effort to get support. I've always said in discussion that I have sympathy for Falun Gong practitioners who are mistreated in any way while being detained in China. But mistreatment and even torture, if done by corrupt individuals at the local level does not equate to a government policy in favor of torture, nor does it justify words like "genocide" which are also used in FG propopaganda. Take, for example, the first report you cite above...the March, 2006 Commission on Human Rights report. In that report I learned the following:

• "Since 2000, the Special Rappporteur and his predecessors have reported 314 cases of alleged torture to the government of China involving over 1,160 individuals.
• Of those alleged victims, 66% were deemed to be FG practitioners. That means over a 5 year period the Rapporteur reported a total of 765 alleged victims, or 154 per year. So rather than speaking of "millions" of alleged victims, the word "hundreds" is more like it.
• The Special Rapporteur welcomed "the willingness of the government to acknowledge the pervasiveness of torture in the criminal justice system and the various efforts undertaken in recent years at the central and provencial levels to combat torture and ill-treatment."
• He also acknowledged that "these measures have contributed to a steady decline of torture practices over recent years." --Tomananda 18:35, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, please find the citation if you could. Please do not slander. Fnhddzs 07:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with "China Vs Falun Gong" version. But i also think "persecution" should be used if there are that many refferences which use such a term. Toamananda, im sorry but that is surely another of your personal understandings of another of Master Li's quotes. Please Look at the references that we are presenting and give us a justified reason of why the term "persecution" should not be used.--Andres18 01:01, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I will track down that Li Hongzhi quote and report it here. --Tomananda 18:32, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Noah Porter reported the Li quote in his Master's Thesis (p.72), but doubts its reliability because it comes from the Chinese Embassy in Denmark. The quote relates to the question of why Li changed (fabricated?) his birthday to make it coincide with Sakymuni's. Here's the quote:

'When Li's acquaintances asked him why he made up his life story, Li answered, "No one would believe me if I do not exaggerate a little bit.'" Porter obtained the quote from: I am not proposing that we add this to the ariticle, but nevertheless find it very interesting. For me, it provides one plausible, though ironic, explanation for Li's grandiose statements. --Tomananda 01:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for finding the quote. Now I am not worried. It is not Li's words. It is just a cliche from Chinese Embassy. Unfortunately it cannot support your POV.Fnhddzs 04:22, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

When Li's acquaintances asked him why he made up his life story, Li answered, "No one would believe me if I do not exaggerate a little bit.'" Ah please...for all we know they could have just made it up, is there a name and last name of an acquaintance from Mr Li confirming it? no, is there enough evidence to back that up? no. Its completely unsubstantal. Besides, you are contradicting yourself, arent people suppossed to think you are lying if you exaggerate?. Why dont we focus on what we have to do? pleeeeasse lets center on the real objective of this subsection, we are waiting for the critics opinion on the use of the term persecution.--Andres18 03:18, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

We've already discussed the use of the terms "persecution" and "suppression". You can go here to refer to the discussion. I stand by using the term "persecution". "Persecution" is not inherentely POV, although some people may use it that way. What's happening in China is absolutely a persecution, and the term has been widley used by people from all sides to describe it. "Suppression" does not carry the same meaning. Whether or not you like Falun Gong you still have to own up to the fact that it is being persecuted in China. I think we should use this word in the title and the introduction. The article will then give context to the word. "China vs Falun Gong" is not accurate. That term almost implies that they are two forces engaged in some kind of battle with each other. This is not true as practitioners are merely doing what they can to counter and stop the persecution against them. They beat, torture, and kill us, but we don't lay a finger on them. We just want them to stop and want people to understand what they are doing. It's totally different from an "X vs Y" battle. Mcconn 09:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Well now that you mentioned it Mcconn, i think you are absolutely right about the term China vs Falun Gong. We are not fighting against the Chinese government, we dont care about politics, its the persecution we are trying to stop. So, i agree with the term "persecution" being used.--Andres18 14:04, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Andres and Mcconn. It can't be called "China vs Falun Gong". It is CCP that is torturing and killing Falun Gong practitioners. Falun Gong practitiotners have never answered back with any violence, they just clarify the truth about the persecution to the people in the world. Omido 15:24, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Andres and Omido: Li Hongzhi continually calls for the use of the Nine Commentaries to slowly eliminate the Chinse Communist Party through attrition. The Epoch Times reports how many millions of Chines people have supposedly quit the CCP because of the FG's campaign, and Li himself, in a recent poem posted on your website talks about the CCP fading due to the promotion of the Nine Commentaries. And just recently a FG practitioner gained entry to the White House lawn using her Epoch Times press pass to heckle and harrass Chinese President Hu. Given these facts, how can you say with a straight face "we are not fighting against the Chinese govenment"? --Tomananda 18:52, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Everyone in civic world should shout at the CCP's evil. What if your friends' organs are in danger of being butchered? Stop the beast! Fnhddzs 15:43, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda: that is your personal opinion and i respect it. We ,Falun Gong practitioners, think the Nine commentaries are just exposing the evil deeds of the communst party, if they are fading its because of what they did, not what we do. But we are not here to give our personal opinion about this matter. So lets focus on making the article, if you think persecution shouldnt be used then give us a justifiable reason (backed up) of why it shouldnt be used. We have many testimonies and refferences that state this persecution is really happenning, can you prove it is not a persecution? if you can then post it so we can talk about it and move on. What the Epoch times reporter did does not represent in any way the actions of Falun Gong, if she went and did it then its her problem, that doesnt mean Falun Gong or Mr Li wanted this to happen in any way. As you may know, Falun Gong cannot take responsability for what all people who claim to be practitoners do.--Andres18 22:25, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Really? Master Li is not responsible for what an Epoch Times reporter does, even though he said the Epoch Times was created by his Dafa disciples for validating the Fa? And Master Li is not pushing the Nine Commentaries as a device for getting rid of the CCP by attrition even though he repeatedly reminds his followers about how it is to be used? Sorry for being incredulous, but the constant denials of FG practitioners that you are not pursuing a political agenda become tiresome after a while. The last time I checked, the goal of eliminating a governing political party through propaganda is considered "political." Anyone who has read Master Li's speeches knows that his goal is the elimination of the CCP. Sure, Master Li says it will be the gods who will eliminate the "wicked" and "evil" CCP, just as he says the gods will eliminate practicing homosexuals. But then again, Li also says he is teaching the gods his Fa, so that makes Li the king of the gods, doesn't it? And therein lies his responsibility. --Tomananda 02:09, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Keep in mind this is not a falun gong discussion forum, and all this talk is not relevant to the subsection. Thats your POV, We also have our own POV of the matter, dont regard what you think as absolute. Im not going to spend one more second talking to you about falun gong, we have our opinion and you have yours. If our position on the matter becomes tiresome for you then id appreciate it if you could be more a little more tolerant towards other people's opinions. We are here trying to discuss wether the term persecution should be used or not, if you disagree then give us your motives so we can talk about it.--Andres18 03:10, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Nobody is fighting the chinese government. Falun Gong practitioners are compassionatly exposing the wicked party's evil crimes. The only thing the Nine Commentaries are doing is to help people to see the true and wicked nature of the CCP. Actually, Master Li himself have said that Falun Gong will never be against the government, not now and not in the future, he also said that Gods will eliminate CCP. Why do practitioners spread the Nine Commentaries? Because CCP has been killing people for the last 160 years, they brainwash people and they use propaganda and lies as tools for maintaining the power, the chinese people should know this. This is in fact the purpose of the Nine Commentaries, to see the true nature of CCP. Omido 20:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

When the Dafa disciples who run the Epoch Times report on how many millions of Chinese people have quit the evil and wicked CCP, that is not "fighting the Chinese government"? And when practitioners lobby congresspeople and local politicians to get them to pass resolutions to condemn the Chinese Government, that is not "fighting" the Chinese Government? And when Falun Gong practioners based in Taiwan illegally jam the main TV transmissions that the Chinese Govenment sends to it's people, that is not fighting the Chinese Goverment? As I have said all along, the mendacity of the Falun Gong truly amazes me. --Tomananda 02:18, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

We would really appreciate it if you could stop attacking us, mEndacity literally means "Falsehood", this is an attack, i also think you should stop continuously breaking the forum rules, its not healthy towards the making of the article. Please answer to our simple request (do you agree or not with the term persecution and if you dont then give us a considerable reason so we can dialogue about it) so that we can move on.--Andres18 03:10, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not attacking anyone personally, but I am responding to the postings made by practitioners above which contain some pretty outrageous claims. I notice that instead of responding to the substance of what I said above, all you do is accuse me of attacking editors. Anyway, I will take a page from Omido and just say: No one is attacking you, I am only compassionately exposing what I consider to be erroneous claims made by the practitioners. --Tomananda 05:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

You did respond to our claims which you consider outrageous, but your answer was an attack to falun gong practitioners. I think you are completely entitled to state that you disagree with our claims, but i dont think the way you are doing it is the most appropriate one. Im not going to respond to your claims because thats not what im here to do and its not what this subsection is about. I say again i think you should stop behaving like this. Im sorry if i sound rude but if you want to initiate once again a never ending argument about who is right and wrong (like on, perhaps each and every subsection on this talk page so far) and contininue posting ironic remarks trying to ridiculize us, trying to make everybody think you are right and we are wrong then i think perhaps there might be somewhere else you can do it, instead of doing it here and disturbing the edit process. Dont get me wrong, i dont mind at all you are against falun gong or anything, in fact, im glad there are non falun gong editors here so we can make a neutral article but i think this kind of behaviour is seriously delaying the edit process, im sure we all want to finish this article some day right?--Andres18 23:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A FALUN GONG DISCUSSION FORUM! Please, add new messages pertaining to editing the FLG article at the bottom of this page.

I agree that CCP is different with China government. CCP hijacks the Chinese government. So I think Chinese government has to quit the CCP. Falun gong is not against any government. But everyone in civic world should expose the CCP's evil and ask CCP to stop persecution. Fnhddzs 02:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC) There is no consensus even in Chinese authorities and there was no legal procedures in terms of starting and conducting the persecution. Fnhddzs 02:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC) Some Chinese former officials has quitted the CCP since they cannot endorse the persecution any more. Fnhddzs 02:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, note that not covering up the persecution facts is just as it is, as just a normal wikipedia article. In my understanding: We, Falun Gong, do not appreciate the persecution at all to gain any support. Without persecution, Falun Gong will still save people well. Fnhddzs 04:33, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I am opposed to the title "persecution" because that is truly a POV...it assumes that there is a deliberate government effort to persecute practitioiners in China. I can accept the word "suppression" because it correctly describes the ban and has the right legal connotations. I can also accept something like: "Conflict between the Chinese government and the Falun Gong" --Tomananda 05:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

"Suppression" is better than "persecution". Suppression is the usual word used to describe what the CCP is doing to the movement. I'm not averse to having "persecution" in the article, but as a quote in reporting claims made by groups reporting the CCP's activities. --Fire Star 火星 13:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with FireStar that we can use the term persecution reported as claims made from practitioners, because anti falun gong editors think there is a ban but there is no persecution right? so the persecution, wether it is truly happening or not, is our point of view. If the CCPCH wants to call it supression then lets atribute that term to their claims. The idea is to leave the reader with a doubt, not expose that there is a persecution going on or say nothing is happening at all. I think its ok to say "Conflict between Chinese government and the Falun Gong" too, to me it sounds neutral and it doesnt imply that any of the parties is attacking the other.--Andres18 23:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

It is a deliberate effort from the CCP regime. Policemen got promoted, got prize if they caught Falun Gong practitoners and converted them. Your neighbors got prize if they call police to report Falun Gong practitioners. If you walk on the street, you may be kidnapped to the labor camp just because they recognized you are a Falun Gong practitioner. It is the CCP Jiang who deliberately wanted to eradicate Falun Gong in three or whatever months (citation needed). However, Falun Gong never have conflicts with the Chinese government since we are taught (citation later) Falun Gong does not have enemies and CCP is different with the government. Seven years passed, what you see from Falun Gong practitioners are always peaceful activities: The beautiful galas, the beautiful parades, the peaceful and mostly quiet protests calling for awareness. When I think of the practitioners on the rim of death (to be butchered any time) and those who already lost their lives from persecution, contrasting to the beautiful performance in galas or parades, I cannot agree more on Falun Gong's broad tolerance. Fnhddzs 15:21, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Fnhddzs: Let me get this straight. You seem to be agreeing with me that the Falun Gong overtly seeks the elimination of the Chinese Communist Party and has been "fighting" the CCP through a variety of tactics, but you claim that these actions are not attacks against the Chinese Government itself, but rather the Chinese Communist party. Is that a fair summary of your position? --Tomananda 18:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda, personally I think that the CCP will be eliminated by Gods, because they have killed more than 80 million chinese people the last 57 years. They are the worst and most evil government that has ever existed. I believe in karma, that means that "Good is rewarded, and evil meets retribution". That is why exposing the CCP crimes and clarify the truth about the persecution of Falun Gong is actually saving people. Falun Gong practitioners have no political ambition, the goal of cultivation is to reach beyond the human world, not to stay here and get wordly satiscation/wealth/power. This is why Falun Gong is not political, it is just completely upright. Master Li said (not quote): "During the Dharma-Ending period, where is there a land of purity? I dare to say that our Falun Gong is a land of purify, I dare to say that" Omido 17:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I hope this argument can stop now, if you can read the sign bellow, then im sure there is no need to continue this. Omido, saying things like "CCP will be eliminated by gods because they killed millions of chinese people" will just heat up the argument much more, i think you know that. Ive come to understand that If we dislike POV comments from non practitioner editors then we should stop posting POV posts ourselves too (that includes me too of course) unless they are useful for the creation of the article. We both know where we stand, we are practitioners, they are anti falun gong, i dont think we should keep debating about who is right and wrong on this, its a waste of time, whatever you claim, they wont believe it, whatever they claim we wont believe it either. They are here to make sure the article doesnt turn into a falun gong advertisement and we are here to make sure it doesnt become an attack to falun gong. Lets all be productive and spend our time here posting what we have to post or else we will never get this article done.--Andres18 03:06, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you. But the thing is that Tomananda is trying to implement his understanding (which is wrong) into the article by taking a quote out of context and misrepresent it. If the practitioners doesn't agree with him, he changes the sentence a bit and then he introduces it again, and if people does not agree with him again he starts accusation about how the practitioners are hiding the teachings. This is absoloutly unacceptable. Omido 15:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Omido, I have been trying to stay out of this conversation, and now you make this charge against me? And Andres claims I am the one who attacks other editors? You do hide the truth of your higher teachings as witness the last four months of tedious edit discussions and endless reverts. If it were not for the edits done by non-practionters, this article wouldn't cover such basic Falun Gong concepts as salvation and fa-rectification at all. When I began editing, there was no mention that Li and his Dafa are the only source of salvation for mankind during this period of "Fa-rectification." There was no mention that the Dafa (Li's great law) is judging all people and weeding out those who are not worthy. Nor did the article mention that on the top of the list of those who are deemed "unworthy" of salvation by cult leader Li are those who in their minds do not think the Dafa is good.

Well, I don't think the Dafa is good. I think it is a bunch of bull spoken from the mouth of Li Hongzhi in order to fool people into blindly following him as their god and savior. Li demands total obedience from his disciples in pursuit of his personal agenda, and then threatens to withdraw his protection for those who do not do his bidding. Right now Li demands that his relatively small, but highly media-savy army of followers do everything they can to expose the evil and wicked Chinese Communist Party, with the goal of destroying it. That political goal has been made into a non-negotiable requirement for salvation by Li. If you don't do this, you will loose your only chance at salvation. Andres: before you write another sanctimonious critique of me for allegedly "attacking" the Falun Gong practitioner/editors please reflect on the fact that it is Li whom I attack, not the practitioners. Li is responsible for having created this terrible bind the practitioners are in. It is Li who should be held accoutable for his actions. The practitoners are themselves victims of this manipulative cult leader who somehow continues to evade all accountability for his actions.

--Tomananda 20:10, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Whatever Tomanda, we've heard it before. I recommend anyone anyone who's passing through to take Tomanda's comments with a grain of salt. He has a huge bias and continually twists facts to support his pov. Tomanda I appreciate your great compassion towards me as a victim. You know, it's really terrible living life by trying to better myself by living up to high moral standards and through caring less about desires and attachments. The fact that I try to be kind towards whoever I come into contact with and do my best at whatever I do is likewise aweful. And my poor family... even though I'm the only practitioner, no one really fights anymore, and everyone seems more harmonious. Now my life is also plagued with a terrible wish to help people like myself in China who have been stripped all human rights and become human meat. And through this I've also become aware and concerned with other similarly meaningless human rights attrocities. Oh lament! How could I allow my life to be ruined like this? A sense of fulfillment, peace, faith,... Tomanda, I'm so glad you're here to help me and others like me who have ended up in this sorry state. Mcconn 07:10, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I encourage all readers of these posts to make up their own minds about who is twisting the facts. As long as practitioners characterize direct quotes from the Master as "degrading" and my POV, we will never get at the truth. For years practitioners have avoided being honest about the core teachings when talking to "ordinary people" by claiming that whatever quotes are offered from Master Li are misinterpretted and "taken out of context." If you can provide context which contradicts Li's obvious teachings on his and the Dafa's unique role in saving people, or his teachings about the Dafa judging people who are not worthy, then please do so. So far no practioners have been able to refute my clear reporting of Li's teachings, because really, how can you? So instead the practitoners issue blanket dismissals and personal attacks against me. Misplaced Pages has a word for this...it's called "apologetics"...and boy is it tiresome. As to your being kind, that's great. So am I. But I also think it's important to be truthful, even about your core beliefs. --Tomananda 07:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

If the FG is really about helping people to be morally up right, why would American cult experts (not us) call it a mind control cult? One characteristic of cults is being deceptive. The purpose of being a practitioner is not about treating your neighbors better and giving up desires but becoming gods in Falun Gong heaven, isn’t it? When will you practitioners start telling the truth? --Samuel Luo 17:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if you really believe these things yourself or if you are making them up. All I know is that in the end, when the truth reveal itself, you will regret yourself, but by then, it will be too late. I recommend that from now on, you don't make any POV comments about Falun Gong and Master Li, just concentrate on the article. I won't let other people be brainwashed by your understanding of Falun Gong. Omido 09:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Omido, im a Falun Gong practitioner and im telling you to stop this please, you know saying something like this is going to fire up another argument about falun gong and these kind of arguments are the ones that give the wrong image from practitioners to other people. Please remember, tolerance.--Andres18 11:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Apparently neither the CCP or FLG practitioners tolerate dissent. Warning others not to voice their opinions and then saying opinionated things like "...when the truth reveal itself, you will regret yourself, but by then, it will be too late." is a bit contradictory, I hope you see. If Tomananda isn't to be allowed an opinion, then neither should you. Fortunately, at Misplaced Pages, things are arranged otherwise. --Fire Star 火星 11:26, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I understand Tomananda has an opinion and i respect it. I just think the opinions should concern the subsection, so they can be useful. The same goes for FG editors. If we dont concentrate on making this article and instead we keep arguing about who is right and wrong over and over i dont think we'll finish any time soon. Ill rearrange things bellow to go back into topic.--Andres18 11:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A FALUN GONG DISCUSSION FORUM! Please, add new messages pertaining to editing the FLG article at the bottom of this page.

The CCP has not even been around for 160 years. Cj cawley 23:40, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Final Agreement on This subsection

Alright, lets get things right to finish work on this subsection and move on.

Ill give you my opinion based on the ideas i have seen around here, then please everyone tell me if you agree or not and what you want to change. (remember it must be Neutral)

The Terms i see more neutral for the title are:

"China and Falun Gong" or "Conflict between China and Falun Gong"

And terms like "supression" and "persecution" should be atributed to each of the parties claims respectively.

Now please post your opinions on this. We'll give it as much time as it needs before we decide. --Andres18 11:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Avoid both terms in the lead

I've already said this, but I can't seem to find it, but you are getting bogged down in a side issue. Avoid both terms in the lead, and then bring them up in the appropriate section, which should be named something like Chinese government and Falun Gong rather than the POV Suppression of Falun Gong. Persecution is a perfectly appropriate word to use as a description from the POV of practitioners, for cites see:

• Leading Article: China and the world: Hu and cry
  • The Guardian (London); Apr 22, 2006; p. 34

• Don't insult China's victims, Mr Mayor
  • Daily Mail (London); Apr 27, 2006; p. 71

Hope that helps. Steve block Talk 19:17, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Steve: You make a good argument. I support "Chinese Government and Falun Gong" as the page title, with the understanding that this will not impede the pro-Falun Gong editors from making their case about "persecution" within the article itself. This more generic title will allow for other material to be included which may be of interest, but not directly relate to the ban and its implementation. --Tomananda 19:35, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

It is both neutral and informative, so I support Steve block's lead language proposed above. --Fire Star 火星 21:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

• I too believe that a title of a page should be as neutral as possible, I vote for Chinese Government and Falun Gong --Yueyuen 04:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Steve, what do you mean by "Persecution is a perfectly appropriate word to use as a description from the POV of practitioners?" Is that another way of saying that it's not appropriate for a Misplaced Pages article name? I'm not being snarky, I really don't understand what you're trying to say there. CovenantD 23:35, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

You've got it. People who support the banning of Falun Gong canm legitimately argue it represents a POV. Article names and section headers should be as neutral as possible, with such controversial language discussed within the body of the article, using appropriate citations to base the usages upon. I was attempting to note that the phrase "persecution" can be used within the article, since I thought people were arguing against using the terma at all. Steve block Talk 14:04, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I am ok with avoiding both terms in the lead as I said before(note it seems that Steve's post was accidently deleted). But as to the name of subsection, we already presented the reason why we cannot use Chinese government and Falun Gong. That is a POV title which implies that they are two parties comparable. Please see Mcconn's post:

We've already discussed the use of the terms "persecution" and "suppression". You can go here to refer to the discussion. I stand by using the term "persecution". "Persecution" is not inherentely POV, although some people may use it that way. What's happening in China is absolutely a persecution, and the term has been widley used by people from all sides to describe it. "Suppression" does not carry the same meaning. Whether or not you like Falun Gong you still have to own up to the fact that it is being persecuted in China. I think we should use this word in the title and the introduction. The article will then give context to the word. "China vs Falun Gong" is not accurate. That term almost implies that they are two forces engaged in some kind of battle with each other. This is not true as practitioners are merely doing what they can to counter and stop the persecution against them. They beat, torture, and kill us, but we don't lay a finger on them. We just want them to stop and want people to understand what they are doing. It's totally different from an "X vs Y" battle. Mcconn 09:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Fnhddzs 02:29, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

• That argument counters "China vs Falun Gong", not "Chinese government and Falun Gong". I don't understand the rejection of this title because it equates the two parties, because, in the context of the section the two parties are equatable. Steve block Talk 14:04, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Mccon i get what you are saying but, even though we all know there is a persecution going on, the critics say there is no persecution, that would be their point of view right?. And if we say there is then maybe that could make it our point of view even though its undeniable that its really happenning. I think the idea of making this secton is not saying "there is a persecution" or "there is no persecution" but instead to leave the reader with a doubt. If that happens then it means we exposed both points of view on the matter in a neutral way and the reader will decide wether he thinks if there is a persecution going on or not. What i dont see clearly is what is the critics position, if they say there is no persecution, then according to them, what is going on?. What do they have to say about it? i think its appropriate to know their opinion on this matter so we can make neutral statements about this situation. I also agree with using "Falun Gong and China" or "Conflct between Chna and Falun Gong" as the title and i think we can also use the terms suppression and persecution as what each of the parties claim this situation to be. China government says its a supression, falun gong says its a persecution. I think this should be the idea, does anyone think there should be more discussion on this matter or can we start proposing some writing for this subsection?.--Andres18 17:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I have a book called "Investigating the Persecution of Falun Gong" that I will use as a source in this article. This book is a valid source. Omido 17:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

• The Falun Gong is banned in China for its violation of laws. It has suppressed the rights of its critics and caused more than a thousand deaths. I believe these justifications provided by the Chinese government partly because my rights as a critic was also suppressed by the Falun Gong and my step-father almost died in following Falun Gong teaching of abandoning medical treatment. The ban of Falun Gong is not a persecution but a just action to free those who have been brainwashed and manipulated by Master Li and save lives. I noticed that all Admins (uncle Ed, Firestar and Steve) have suggested this neutral title “Chinese government and the Falun Gong,” after this much discussion I believe it is time to change that title and begin working on the article. --Samuel Luo 19:36, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm still against "Falun Gong and the Chinese government" because that title is broad while the section is actually only about things related to the persecution. It really doesn't describe what the section is about. I realize admins' and other editors' concern for non-POV, but if it's a duck we should call it a duck rather than a foul or feathered animal. If I go and make a big stink on the wiki talk page on "the holocost" and make all kinds of crazy claims about why the holocost never happend, does that mean that the editors involved should then change the page, call it something else, or stick the word "alleged" before every use of the word "holocost"? Of course not. As I said, people from all sides call this a persecution, even most critics, and for most who know anything about it this goes without saying. So should we then not use this term because a couple of anti-Falun Gong editors call it a POV? I don't think so. Tomanda and Samuel, maybe rather than shooting your mouth off about your negative pov of Falun Gong or the persecution, you could instead provide some actual sources that counter the claims of this being a persecution. Mcconn 06:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Mcconn, it was neither Samuel nor I who posted the original suggestion that we call the page The Chinese Government and the Falun Gong. My understanding from Steve's post is that we should strive to be as neutral as possible in page titles. You may recall that I had suggested we have not a page, but a section called "Homophobic teachings of the FG" but that was shot down using the same kind of argument that Steve has used in his proposal. As I've said before, I'm OK with calling the page "Supression of Falun Gong." Others are not ok with that compromise, though. --Tomananda 07:15, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Falun Gong did not do anything illegal. The ban of Falun Gong was illegal with no trial, no procedure, nothing. Just an announcement. In the worst inference, even if the worst people do not deserve the persecution such as live organ harvesting, torturing, raping, job expelling, school expelling, the policy of so-called "economically cut off, physically eliminate and give a bad publicity" and the policy of "beating to death counted as suicide, burnt immediately without checking the names". Can we call it a persecution? It would be wikipedia's point of view by not facing this fact. As I said, Falun Gong does not rely on persecution to get support, persecution does not help Falun Gong. It is just a fact whether you like Falun Gong or not. I was thinking "Falun Gong in China" could be ok but it is too vague and hard to organize. Since Falun Gong is present over 80 countries/areas. The persecution is spread to outside China to a limited degree too. The title of "Chinese government and the Falun Gong" is too broad too. Chinese government refer to who? It supported Falun Gong and awarded it before. Its internal officials have disputes on the persecution. There are Chinese government's presence inside China or outside China (embassies). I forsee that the Chinese government will support Falun Gong in the future too. The persecution will be a history. "China and Falun Gong" is also a mixed feeling and too broad. In my view, China, as a part of human society, its orthodox culture is highly praised and treasured by Falun gong if you read the teachings carefully. The main body of practitioners are in China. How could Falun Gong not love China and wish it well? So I think let's just use the title of "persecution of Falun Gong". We don't simply summarize who did the persecution here since it is not easy. We want the facts only. Fnhddzs 07:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Is the suppression of FLG by the CCP legal? Is it legitimate? That isn't up to us to decide. It is what it is. We report, not condemn. In yet another FLG associated irony, one can't help being amused that people practicing "tolerance, compassion and forbearance" would embrace condemnation of anyone. --Fire Star 火星 13:49, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I can see this is going to go nowhere fast. The discussion is split into two different sections, people are back to preaching and condemning, and there's no attempt to even deal with the lead section at the moment. I'll check back in a day or two. Meanwhile, maybe somebody could actually pay attention to the article in question, Suppression of Falun Gong. There's a lot of routine maintenance work that needs done there like formatting references, and I'll be damned if I'm going to do it all for you. CovenantD 14:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Umm, I'm actually talking about the article, differing approaches to editing the article and what is important and unimportant to the differing sides, above. --Fire Star 火星 22:39, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I am a FG editor and i agree with the "China and Falun Gong" title, please rememeber that even though the persecution is happening, both parties have different opinions on the matter. Critics say either there is no persecution or that there is an innoffensive suppression going on. We FG practitioners think its a persecution, since they dont agree then even though it may be true, its still our point of view. Mcconn, if you see a duck and you normally call it like that, it doesnt mean somebody else cant call it otherwise even though its still what it really is. In the article we cant say there is a persecution and we cant say that something isnt happening either. The reader should make up his own mind about it. Ill read the section and propose some edits, please lets center on what we have to do, it seems tiresome to argue so much and going nowhere with this. Im sorry Covenant if we are causing you too much trouble, we'll get on it now. As of right now i dont know how to format refferences, can anyone please lend us a hand?. Thanks to all.--Andres18 02:44, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda, you've learned quite a bit about citing references from your work on the "Controversies" article. Would you be willing to work with Andres18, teaching him/her what you know about it? CovenantD 13:55, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Andres, why don't you start by just looking at the existing footnotes and ask questions.--Tomananda 00:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Andres, Here is a link Misplaced Pages:Footnotes CovenantD showed me before which might be helpful. Actually it is easier to start by just following the suit of the existing ones. You will pick it up soon. Again, we could report on opinions of persecution. But persecution itself is facts. Even if you are a non-Chinese citizen outside of China, you may also be on a black list so that you could not board on airplanes to other countries. That did happen. Fnhddzs 16:43, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Temp page

• Okay China and Falun Gong is plain wrong. However, can we move past this dispute over persecution and suppression? I'm going to create a temp page and just start from scratch. Write the stuff up, nobody reverts and we discuss as we go. If people start edit warring on the temp page I will most likely delete it. Steve block Talk 20:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• Steve block WE DO NOT need to start a page from scratch. What we need now is mediation. Can somebody request a wiki mediator? --Kent8888 22:26, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• Ouch. I'm standing here attempting to mediate. I'm trying to work out what everyone agrees on, by asking people to add to the temp page what they think everyone agrees on. I would hope people would show good faith in this process. Steve block Talk 10:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

At the rate it's growing, the references section should be about as long as the article itself :-) CovenantD 13:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that occurred to me too. Something to add to the to do list for once we get the whole article rewritten. Steve block Talk 13:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Steve block I am sorry that my response seems a bit strong. I oppose the temp page idea because I am tired of following the argument from both sides. Instead of creating a page for them to "discuss" issues, a formal mediation would save time for all of us. --Kent8888 20:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Ack, I'm not over bothered, although I'm not sure how mediation works without discussing the issues involved, to be perfectly honest, and I'm not sure this should be seen as an us and them issue. It's a question of finding out where we all agree Misplaced Pages's best interests lie. Misplaced Pages should be presenting the issues surrounding Falun Gong from a neutral point of view. Whilst we can argue our points, that the important thing to keep in mind. Steve block Talk 20:28, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Falun Gong To Do List

I want to create a To Do List for the Falun Gong-related articles.

Question for an admin - where would be the proper place for this, as a subpage of the talk or the article? Or should it be a subpage of Wikiproject China?

• I created it as a subpage of here, it matters little and can be moved if needed. Steve block Talk 21:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I'm going to move the list to the top of the page, just under the archives. CovenantD 16:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Here's preview of things to come... CovenantD 15:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

I've been looking at this whole mediation thing and trying to figure out what we haven't been doing within the bounds of that kind of framework. The two biggest things that I see are 1) the powers of the mediator and 2) the role of the participants.

1. An official mediator has the power to edit others' comments, removing or rewording extraneous comments and personal attacks. This would have been very helpful during the recent straw polls when editors starting throwing in other suggestions and making comments on the motivations and tactics of others. A "real" mediator could have kept things focused much better with this power.
2. The two sides in a dispute each have a single voice. This can be done easily when there are only two editors involved or by choosing a representative spokesperson to speak for each side.

I'm still willing to be the informal mediator, but I think we've moved beyond the point where progress is possible without these two points. CovenantD 14:19, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Give us one more chance please, i think these situations wont repeat themselves. If you see one more editor out of control then ill stand by your decision.--Andres18 05:02, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

CovenantD I believe most editors here really appreciate your help, but as you yourself have realized, we are reaching a point where a formal mediator is needed. --Kent8888 21:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that some means of keeping the discussion on track is needed. I haven't seen the self-control required on the part of editors so I guess it will have to be an outside party. So let's find out

Who would agree to be a party to mediation?

Would accept mediation

1. Accept. --Fire Star 火星 22:36, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
2. Yes --Kent8888 23:41, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
3. Accept--Yenchin 23:58, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
4. Accept --Yueyuen 01:36, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
5. Finally -- Миборовский 03:06, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
6. Accept Or else we'll never finish the article.--Andres18 17:39, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
7. Accept Look forward to turn around. Fnhddzs 19:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
8. Accept See more detailed post below. --Tomananda 21:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Decline mediation

I decline on the basis it is a poor suggestion. Whitemanners 21:57, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Care to elucidate? -- Миборовский 17:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

It would be counter-productive for me personally. As a neutral party it would be inappropriate for me to take a side, nor would I wish to give up my right to comment on the goings-on. CovenantD 22:11, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Please see Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation. --Fire Star 火星 22:35, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I know. Like I said, I've been doing research. Where do you think I got the idea to find out who agrees? CovenantD 00:56, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

My apologies. I think it is a fine idea, there is too much of an impasse. --Fire Star 火星 14:44, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Miborovsky, you could have done this at any time. Hell, any of you could have. It will only work if the main participants, like Tomananda, Dilip, Samuel, Omido, etc., sign on. Interesting that none of them have done so yet. CovenantD 15:09, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Could I? There would have been 5 people crying out for my blood within the hour. -- Миборовский 17:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

LOL... point to Miborovsky. CovenantD 17:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Did Ed Poor do the mediation before? Fnhddzs 18:18, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't binding mediation. He was attempting to do what CovenantD also is attempting to do. What is now being proposed is that the seemingly intractable dispute will be considered in the light of Misplaced Pages policy by mediators and perhaps eventually arbitrators whose subsequent decisions about the article will be enforced by administrators. Please read Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation. --Fire Star 火星 19:43, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

CovenantD official mediator here

Hi all, CovenantD has been playing a role of an informal mediator here and he is interested in continuing this role. I am proposing that we make him an official mediator on the Falun Gong article. His edits have shown his enthusiasm in improving this article, his ability to remain neutral and his willingness in following Misplaced Pages edit principles. I believe if we recognize him as an official mediator here, meanning giving him the power to make final judgments in conflict, his future contributions would speed up the improvement of this article. ConventD and I have reverted each other a few times, however I recognize his ability to make NPOV contributions. I don’t believe we can get a mediator who would spend the kind of time and energy as ConventD has contributed. I propose that we work with ConventD for now and if it still doesn’t work then we go to formal mediation.

CovenantDcan only work as an official mediator if he has the power to make the final judgment. Would you recognize him as an official mediator here and give him the power to make final judgment? Please vote here.

Accept--Samuel Luo 05:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Accept He has shown scrupulous neutrality, I am willing to accept his decisions for the final wordings of disputed passages. --Fire Star 火星 13:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Accept I trust him too. --Kent8888 19:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Accept I think Covenant has done a good job in mediating already. I vote for us to give him this role officially, but also ask him to keep us on track. Increasingly we are going from one topic to another without ever completing any. Covenant has written a comprehensive "to do" list which is posted above. If we are serious about editing this article, I think we should systematically go through that list, perhaps giving a deadline to complete each item as we go along. Otherwise, we're just spinning our wheels with debates which never conclude with approved edits. --Tomananda 21:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

3/4 Accept I have only one concern--what if CovenantD is a practitioner but posing as a neutral editor? You will have my full support when you say master Li is full of Sxxx. Of course you should also say the CCP is full of Sxxx to maintain your neutrality. --Yueyuen 02:31, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Stop. Those are not nice words. Never use them on anyone. Fnhddzs 06:27, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

• LOL Neither of those statements would really make me neutral, now would they? I understand your concern, but you'll just have to trust that my past edits have revealed my true nature. If you have much doubt, look at my other contributions and you'll see that Falun Gong is just a side issue for me. My true passion is comic books ;-) CovenantD 02:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

And reverting vandalism. CovenantD 02:56, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

True, making those statements do not prove your neutrality, but they make you likeable by both sides. --Yueyuen 03:09, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I am willing to bet the bank that CovenantD is definitely not an FLG practitioner. He doesn't write like one. --Fire Star 火星 14:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Accept i trust he will do a good job on this one — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andres18 (talk • contribs)

Accept Although I haven't agreed with all of Covenants edits, I've seen his effort in being neutral. I think that if we're going to have a mediator Covenant would be fine for the job. However, should Covenant begin showing clear signs of pov then he should then loose his position as mediator (I think this goes without saying, but I just want to make sure it's clear). Mcconn 09:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Accept Omido 11:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment This is starting to look serious.
For the record, I am not a Falun Gong practitioner, I do not know any practitioners, and I have no bias towards or against them. Same for the opponents - I'm not one, no bias for or against, I have had no contact with them other than this wiki, nor do I intend to. As for Mcconn's statement, I of course agree. I have full confidence that if I start to show preferencial treatment for one side or the other that I will be called on it. I'm not perfect, but I'm willing to listen and learn about this process and the issues at hand. CovenantD 14:38, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

• While waiting for a few more editors to vote, I would like to make one point clear, Wiki mediators are requested when there is an impasse, CovenantD should also wait for us to request his decision. We (editors on both sides) should try to reach an agreement without going to CovenantD, but once his decision is requested and made then all of us who have voted to give him the power of an official editor have to respect that decision. If there is disagreement with CovenantD’s decisions wiki policy and facts backed by evidence should be cited instead of our POV.

Since many editors on both sides have supported him, I propose that CovenantD start exercising his power as an official mediator in 24 hours, in the absence of objection. Since we have agreed to request mediation, his first task should be making a judgment on the disputed paragraphs in the intro and request the article to be unprotected. --Samuel Luo 19:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Accept. CovenantD is quite devoted and I believe his good will in editing. But I wonder if a mediator has to be an admin? Fnhddzs 06:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Nope, adminship is not a requirement. Only the trust and goodwill of the involved editors. CovenantD 14:30, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Unprotect?

This article has been protected for ages and, despite the discussion above, I cannot find any extant request for mediation. Would it be out of the question to simply unprotect the article and see what happens? --Tony Sidaway 22:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Not out of the question, but perhaps not a good idea either. Every time I've seen this article unprotected without a clear idea on the talk page on what to do next, it's ended up in a revert war in a matter of hours. (The major editors haven't been present for a few days, though, so it might go longer this time.) If you do unprotect it, I'd ask that you do so when you have the time to keep an eye on it. Don't just unprotect then sign off Misplaced Pages for a couple of days ;-) CovenantD 22:47, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

That's not something I've a habit of doing. However I think I'll wait a few more days. --Tony Sidaway 22:55, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it's time to unprotect. It was protected for the first or second paragraph of the introduction. But now the discussion is quite far astray from that. Fnhddzs 01:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

But the question is, what are we going to do when the main page is unprotected? Why don't we at least agree to a deadline for completeing the introductory se=ction before unprotecting the main page?

--Tomananda 21:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Let’s give us one more week to work out the dispute regarding the first paragraph in the introduction. --Samuel Luo 04:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

And Fnhddzs went ahead and requested unprotection which was declined because, in the words of the admin, "The reasonable issues that started the revert war do not yet seem to have been resolved." So that's that until we come to some agreement. CovenantD 23:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

You know my concern is why we did not keep the discussion on the introduction? I remember we had a good discussion. I forgot when we began the straw polls before the discussion is finalized. Then we suddenly jumped to request a mediation. Then nobody remembered to discuss the introduction more. Can we think of a way not floating with anybody's random proposal and stay concentrated? Fnhddzs 06:20, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I hope that selecting a mediator will help that process. I'm gonna start striking out comments that are personal in nature (see below for some examples) and not related to the task at hand. That should prevent side-issues from overtaking the real work. CovenantD 14:35, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Sub-section for criticism and contreversies

We have been waiting for more than one month for Tomananda to change the sub-sections in the critcism and contreversies, still he did not do that. ConvenantD, we should change the sub-sections for the critism and conterversies section, don't you agree? Omido 16:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

If you are referring to the article on Critism and Controversies, I think that enough time has passed that other people can start suggesting improvements to it on it's talk page. If you're referring to the subsections in this article, well, nobody could make changes for the last three weeks. CovenantD 17:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Omido why don't you respond to the polls above? And after that we should solve the dispute of the 1st paragraph of intro first, so the page can be unprotected. --Kent8888 19:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Not correct, Omido. As agreed, I was in the proces of re-writing the summary of the Criticism and controversies page when that all changed. Covenant removed the links that had appeared on the main page to the subsections of the criticism page, while a new introduction I had just written and posted on the main page (also as agreed) was deleted because of a complaint from Samuel about changes in general on the main page. Shortly thereafter the main page was frozen, so no other changes would be possible. If you're talking about the Criticism page itself, I think we should complete our existing tasks first, which includes finishing the introduction paragraphs first. By jumping around, we are not completing anything. --Tomananda 21:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda, no we will not wait anymore. The sub-sections for the critism and conterversies has to be changed. The critism and contreversies have five sections:

   * 5.1 Differences between Falun Gong and other beliefs
   * 5.2 Li as a savior or supernatural entity
   * 5.3 Fa-rectification: Li’s version of the apocalypse?
   * 5.4 Debatable significance of Falun Gong awards and recognitions
   * 5.5 Falun Gong and sexual orientation

These sections have to be put into one section, we have waited for this for a very very long time no and still no results, I hope we can begin with this as soon as possible. As I see it, this is the most important thing right now because it is really unfair and wrong to have the critism section be like this. Omido 11:31, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

You are going to have to come up with more convincing arguments than "because it is really unfair and wrong" if you are looking for agreement by consensus to your demands. --Fire Star 火星 14:16, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it is out of balance in the Table of Contents, but disagree with Omido's solution for correcting it. The better way is to work on the daughter articles and have those changes reflected here, which will probably result in some sub-headings being added. The first place to start is in the Teachings article.

Since it looks like we're headed toward s more formal mediation, I'm going to make a bold suggestion and test the mediation agreement. For this article, we focus on finishing the lead. While that is happening, we also turn out attention to the Teachings of Falun Gong article. Once we finish the lead section for this article, we turn our attention to the Criticism and Controversies section of the main article. That way we're always working on two separate topics at all times. More than that and I agree with Tomananda that we'll lose cohesion.

To that end, I'm going to leave a comment on the Teachings article talk page to get the ball rolling there.

Omido, I want to assure you that I'm not dismissing your concerns. We will deal with the portions that you find troubling, but I believe that working on the Teaching article will bring a better balance without gutting other sections. CovenantD 15:00, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like a fine plan. Let's go for it. --Tomananda 00:02, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Omido: I am offended by your threatening tone and suggestion that I have not done something I was supposed to do. The main page has been frozen for weeks while we quible about how to present Master Li's basic teachings about the Dafa judging all people, weeding out the unworthy, and Li offering salvation, etc. When you say "we will not wait anymore" that amounts to a threat. Are you preparing for yet another revert war? And as to the specifics, if "we" as editors want there to be balance on the main page, it doesn't make sense for there to be multiple links to multiple Falun Gong pages, but only one link to the entire Criticism and controversies page. Covenant long ago deleted all the sub-section links in the main article pointing to the subsections on the criticism page, so I really don't see what has provoked your tantrum.

More importantly, your tone and agressiveness are not in keeping with your stated values of "tolerance and forebearance." And as a Misplaced Pages editor, you are demonstrating an outrageous lack of cooperation. We are supposed to be working together, not issuing vailed threats and accusations.

--Tomananda 23:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

All right. I don't quite know what you are talking about, but I believe you guys' good will. Don't you want to let the article move on? Fnhddzs 06:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry if you took it as a threat, personally I think you are overreacting, but if you really took it as a threat I apologize, I can assure you that it really wasn't my intention. I just wanted you to understand that it is very important, because it is really out of balance in the table of content. Omido 07:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Question

Let me ask you guys a question real fast. Why would it be inappropriate for someone who practices Falun Gong to edit the Falun Gong article as long as he completely applies the wikipedia standards?

Maybe some of you are saying that this would be okay. Then may I do it? I think you would not let me do it, and would revert my change. Because right now the article makes it appear as though a major part of Falun Gong may be to spread material indicating the doom of the world, discriminating homosexuals, showing off the awards and recognition of Falun Gong and Li Hongzhi (which according to the article may simply be used to mislead people), and promoting Li Hongzhi as a savior, and Falun Gong practitioners as "Gods".

My article would mention all of these things, but it would also explain why those things might not at all be a major aspect of Falun Gong, are not being spread by Falun Gong practitioners, and are being mentioned in an encyclopedia entry only because since the beginning of the persecution (or "suppression" or whatever,) related quotes from mister Li's works have been taken out of context so as to make the mass murders (this fact does not seem to be debated) of Falun Gong followers by the Chinese Communist party seem justified.

My article might also try to explain the original context of the disputed quotes, so as to avoid missunderstanding.

But because I would do that, I think most of you would not agree with my article. Am I right?

--Hoerth 18:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

It's kinda moot at the moment because the article is protected - nobody can edit it. We need to resolve the lead section before it should be unlocked. Would you care to help with that process? CovenantD 18:30, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure... but since I was not involved in the article or in the discussion you would have to explain to me what exactly it is that is disputed. I will try to represent Falun Gong practitioners point of view as best as I can... Rigth know MY problem is that I believe the article to not be within wikipedia's NPOV policy because of the issue I just talked about. This is basicly the only major problem that I see. I actually talked with Larry Sanger about the problems on the Falun Gong entry, and he told me the following: "...My advice to you is to remind the participants of the neutrality policy and what it absolutely requires; keep the discussion on that, and think and write clearly about what it requires."

--Hoerth 18:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

What caught my eye in your proposal was this bit: "but it would also explain why those things might not at all be a major aspect of Falun Gong" Why wouldn't that be original research in aid of pro-FLG apologetics on your part? --Fire Star 火星 19:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

going back to intro

CovenantD Time is up and you are now the official mediator here. Are you ready to finalize the wording in the intro? --Samuel Luo 20:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

1. Li, Hongzhi (Draft Translation Edition Feb. 2003, North America) One Standard Alone Determines if Someone is Good or Bad: Whether He is Able to be True, Good, and Endure from Zhuan Falun-The First Talk, Falundafa.org, retrieved July 5, 2006
2. Cite error: The named reference DaYuanManFa_1 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

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