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What about karaites in Turkey? there is almost nothing about them about their history and living places,for example like araköy --] (]) 15:45, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
What about karaites in Turkey? there is almost nothing about them about their history and living places,for example like araköy --] (]) 15:45, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
== The article is full of Crackpot Right-wing Zionist Bias Fringe theory Original Research! ==
I am a Christian Zionist, but this article takes the biscuit! No offense but how the hell has this "Nepolkanov" been allowed to make up all this ultra right-wing crap? Not even the slightest attemtp to look at the subject from the point of view of the Caraims themselves has been made. Look, basically there are at least 4 different groups (with no love lost between them I might add) which could be referred to under this extremely ambiguous term "Crimean Karaites".
# One is Qaraite Jews (followers of Daniel Qumusi, NOT Anan ben David) who live in Crimea. This group is related the the Qaraite Jews of Haskoy in Istanbul. They are properly called Karahim. They are basically Jews, they pray in Synagogues with a Bima. They are not much different at all from the Egyptian Qaraite Jews of Israel.
# Another group are basically just Muslims who call themselves Qaraims once very common among Seljuks and Turkomen. They are perhaps best represented by a former Jew called Yitzhak Solomons (self-styled ) basically following a kind of Hanafi Madhab Islam derived from his ultimate student Anan ben David (the only student of Abu Hanifa who was imprisoned with him). Their story on the life and teachings of Anan is SIGNIFICANTLY different from the mainstream Orthodox Jewish biography about him.
# Another are the Krymkaraylar of Polkanov and Ormeli´s group. Their culture descends from a Christian branch of the Crimean Tatars called Karaits who arrived with Batu Khan during the 1240s but who were Judaized by the Genoese Jewish Merchant families such as the ] in the 1400s. From the time of Sima Babovich they have been using the International Hebrew Calendar EVERY year but observe all the holidays one day after the Rabbinical Jews. Ilya Kazas defined their religion as a Judaized branch of Molokans (Spiritual Christians). They are basically nothing but a Turkic group of Sabbatarians (Subbotniki). http://www.proza.ru/2009/10/12/1336 http://kavpolit.com/iudei-kavkaza/
they are related to the still very Christian Caraims of Lithuania, West Ukraine, and Poland. They also have a group in Moscow (http://www.kommersant.ru/doc/2289873). Those in Moscow speak only Russian, but those in Lithuania along with the Krymkaraylar, they also claim origins with a Christian branch of Tatars who arrived with Batu Khan and Mongke Khan, but their language is more closely related to Cuman (Polovtsi) than to Tatar. Their religion was only very recently codified by Seraya Shapshal who identified their origin as a branch of Turkic Nestorians who became influenced by Ananite Hanafism. They believe that Jesus was Christ but NOT Moshia´(Saviour God the Father), they begin and end EVERY prayer service with Atamyz (Our Father). They venerate the Old Testament Lectionary above all other scriptures as sacred, but they also read virtually anything including Talmud, the Gospels, and the Quran being basically "Chrislamic" (as was Tolstoy) in that they respect Mohamed as a true prophet despite being Christians.
#Finally Krymchakhs, whose language is indistinguishable from Caraimean Tatar are also referred to as Crimean Karait Jews being descended from Karaits who were not just Judaized into Subbotniki but wentr all the way and became full Jews.
References to this crackpot Czech-Israeli author Libor "Nissim" Valko´s fringe theory website seriously need to be removed. The whole article needs to be re-written to remove the heavy right-wing Zionist bias (no doubt intended to prove Anan ben David´s Masjid in East Jerusalem is a Jewish Synagogue. More of the same anti-Palestinian revisionism we see everywhere.
Come on now then please. Remove some of this Crackpot ultra right-wing Zionist bias. ] (]) 18:03, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
Revision as of 16:03, 19 April 2015
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Re-Write
The article needs a complete re-write. The lead in itself is very problematic. No references. Since the talk and edit histories expose a great deal of politics concerning this article (which is now polluting the internet whenever one searches for info on Crimean Karaites, so now I'm here) I suggest it be stripped down to bare bones and not a single line be inserted without reference to the source of the opinion. For the lead something based around the following from ;Tiryaki, Victor & Mireyev, Vadim (2006) Complex of Karaite Kenassas in Eupatoria and Other Kenassas Around the World:
"Crimean Karaites are one of the smallest Turkic nations in the world. In these days only several Hundreds of them still live in Crimea, their historical homeland, and there are about 1100 Karaite people in Ukraine in the whole." (p.2)
"Up to the end of the 18th century, Juft-Qale was the largest administrative, cultural, and religious center of the Crimean Karaites." (p.4)
"Loss of native language gives little chance for the ethnic future of the Crimean Karaites as a genuine nation. However, even now the center of spiritual ans cultural life of the Crimean Karaites remains a complex of Kenassas in Eupatoria." (p.5)
Could you be more specific? What is problematic in the lead for your opinion? According the lead, Karaim(like Tiryaki) define themselves originally centered in Crimea; and derived from Turkic-speaking Karaites. As you may see your cite renews nothing, but it is possible to add it as additional reference. Why do you want to rewrite completely?
"Could you be more specific?" Yes, there is not a single reference mentioning "Crimean Karaites". And who is "Tiryaki"? Could you provide an English language reference please? Also the grammar is terrible throughout the article. It clearly has not been written by a native English speaker. I see you are the principle editor for the past year or so. Your contributions are welcome but there is much about wiki style you could learn. Finally, I am sorry, in your last question above your English grammar is not very easily comprehensible so I can not answer it. I gather you are trying to make some point about common opinion and Trakai and Crimean Karaites, but again I think it would really help if you could bring an English language reference to illustrate what you are trying to say. Let's go from there. F.Tromble (talk) 11:38, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
I think that the "Crimean Karaites" name mislead you. You are not the first. The intention is to Karaims including the Lithuanian Karaims -see the lead. I did not choose the article name.It is the misleading but common name in English for this ethnic group as decided in this talk(see archived versions), due to the reasons explained in the article lead. There are 46 references in this article including many English sources-e.g Tatiana Schegoleva. Karaites of Crimea: History and Present-Day Situation in Community
My English realy is far from to be perfect. But 99% sources about the Karaims are not in English. Actually the modern Karaims Mother language is not Karaims but Russian- even in Trakai. So the understanding of Russian language for this article contributions is as important as English. You invited to use automatic tools, to ask questions and I will try to find a proper English source when it possible. And of course, the improvement of the article language is very very important and I really need help here. Your conribution is very invited.Неполканов (talk) 12:24, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
If the article name is misleading, then it needs to e re-named even if it is common, there are rules about misleading names on Misplaced Pages. If it is about Karaims in general rather than Crimean Karaims specifically then it should be re-named simply as Karaims. Or you should start a second article about Karaims and if you can prove that Crimean Karaites are indeed a branch of Karaims rather than Karaite Jews, then you can have this article merged into a section on the new article (but be prepared that it might better be merged into an article about Karaite Jews in general rather than an article about your "Karaims". Are Crimean Karaites really notable enough to deserve such a long article of their own? These are all important Questions which need to be considered in order to get this article ship-shape. Either way, without the proper name in the first instance, writing an appropriately referenced intro would be problematic. Whatever sources are used for the intro must use the same name that the article uses. But I see there is a lock on the page so it can not be re-named "Karaims", therefore the intro must be about Crimean Karaites and not Karaims in general. Unless you would like to approach an administrator to unlock the page? As it stands right now though, you are telling me that the article you are writing is about a slightly broader topic than the name implies, and this is not the way things should be on wikipedia or in any encyclopaedic entry. However the fact the page has been locked indicates that there has been some controversy about the name and your opinion seems to have been on the losing side.
Thank you for the very important info about Tiryaki, unfortunately Misplaced Pages can not be used as a source. It would be good to find something in English about him if you can as he would deserve a mention in the article.
It is important to use as many English sources as possible on English wiki and restrict the number of foreign language sources. This is because not many people can read other languages and can not verify the sources for themselves and it can lead to edit wars.
I would like to contribute to the article, but it would need to be completely re-written and is in a totally different style. My style would be to put references in every paragraph. And if the article is called Crimean Karaites, then these references must be restricted specifically to be about Crimean Karaites.
What would you like to move things forward do now? Start a new petition to rename the page (you might lose again)? Or trim it down? F.Tromble (talk) 10:02, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
To prevent mislead I suggest you to learn the subject/to read the article. You can read there that their origin is a matter of great controversy. The wikipedia is not a place to prove controversaries, but to present all opinions. Karaims is also problematic name.Please look at its article to learn the issue. Russian word "Karaim" means "Karaite"(as in Hebrew). Claiming for their Crimean origin and in order to distance themselves from being identified as Karaite Jews,they call themselves караимы-тюрки,or крымские караимы(Karaite Turks or Crimean Karaites). While first name claiming their Turks origin does not reflect the other POVs, it was decided after long debates to use the second name. The lead explains the matter to minimize mislead. Неполканов (talk) 15:11, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
