| Revision as of 01:54, 5 May 2015 editHijiri88 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users37,390 edits →Kugyol and katakana← Previous edit | Revision as of 02:00, 5 May 2015 edit undoCurtisNaito (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,585 editsNo edit summaryNext edit → | ||
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| ::::::Tell me, how did you come across this page, and why did you reinstate claims that had already been removed months before you came across this article? Who are you, and which other accounts have you used? | ::::::Tell me, how did you come across this page, and why did you reinstate claims that had already been removed months before you came across this article? Who are you, and which other accounts have you used? | ||
| ::::::] (<small>]]</small>) 01:54, 5 May 2015 (UTC) | ::::::] (<small>]]</small>) 01:54, 5 May 2015 (UTC) | ||
| :::::::There is no doubt that the material on Yamanoe no Okura should be included in some form. Mikiso Hane's book is a perfectly fine and reliable source to use, but I've seen the same thing noted in other sources. For instance, Roy Andrew Miller concurs with this theory in his article "Plus Ça Change" for the Journal of Asian Studies. Miller also says that, according to Yamanoe no Okura's biographer Nakanishi Susumu, there are direct corollaries between Yamanoe no Okura's poetic style and earlier Korean poetry. Of course I'm aware that there are other theories about Okura, and we could mention those as well. Alternatively we could simply insert "According to Mikiso Hane" at the beginning of the sentence so that the readers know that it is Hane's viewpoint. However, one way or another, there is still no justification at all for completely deleting this material. We just need to tweak the text in order to find a version we can all agree upon. | |||
| :::::::I feel the same way about the Katakana-Kugyol connection. Many if not most scholars do advocate this theory. Not only does the source which was previously cited say that the connection in question "seems certain", but moreover I notice that the previous source which was cited here was a book co-written by Ki-Moon Lee and S. Robert Ramsey which states that "many in Japan as well as Korea" agree with this theory. An article in the Japan Times, "Katakana system may be Korean, professor says", also reports that the latest evidence gives strong support to this theory. Scholars don't know for sure when exactly Katakana and Kugyol were first developed, and I'm aware that other theories about the origins of Katakana do exist, but there is still no reason to delete the text in question entirely. This theory is advocated by a very large body of reputable scholars, so it is clearly worth a mention. As I said before, we might need to tweak the text to find a version we agree upon, but that is still not a justification for deleting it entirely. Furthermore, there is no reason to force this article to line up with the article on Kugyol because that articles does not contain any citations to speak of. It should go without saying that a reliably sourced statement in one Misplaced Pages article does not need to be changed to match an unsourced claim in another Misplaced Pages article.] (]) 02:00, 5 May 2015 (UTC) | |||
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Kugyol and katakana
Okay, our article on Gugyeol explicitly states that that system was first developed in Korea after katakana developed in Japan. I know other Misplaced Pages articles are not supposed to take priority over external reliable sources, but there are a few complications here. First, the source cited was not written by Sohn but by Ramsey. Second, Ramsey doesn't go into much detail on what the relationship between the two was, making it a bit unclear what he's talking about when he says "kugyol"; I have no choice but to check our article on the subject, and our readers will do the same. If the Gugyeol article is chronologically confused on when the system developed, then that article needs to be tweaked in accordance with reliable sources before we claim katakana (which developed in the ninth century) before we go around implying that it was based on a system that "first came into use in the early Goryeo dynasty". Third, what Ramsey actually says in his article is that the linguistic/cultural tides started turning in the "late traditional period" and already in the 16th century Korean was taking more influence from Japanese than vice versa, and today the Japanese language has a huge influence on everyday Korean. This is not what the creators of this article want to admit, and it's not what Ramsey was being inaccurately quoted as saying. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:14, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
- S. Robert Ramsey is just one of many scholars who believe that katakana was based off Gugyeol. In his book he spends several paragraphs discussing the various ways that the Korean language influenced the Japanese language. By contrast, he says almost nothing about Japanese influence on the Korean language prior to the colonial period.TH1980 (talk) 19:18, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
- He says significantly more about Japanese influence on the Korean language prior to the colonial period than about kugyol and katakana. Also, if Ramset is just one of a great many scholars, then you should have no problem locating sources to support your claim and edit the gugyeol article so that article can be chronologically consistent with our katakana article and this one. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:42, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
- @TH1980: I notice you blankly reverted me again without making any attempts to address my concerns, or even indicating that you understand them. If you do not indicate either here on the gugyeol article that under the definition you are working with "gugyeol" refers to something that existed before the 9th century CE and was known to the Japanese monks who developed katakana, I will revert back and bring this to RSN to see if anyone else can help work out the problem. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:12, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Hijiri 88: Fair enough.TH1980 (talk) 03:56, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
- @TH1980: If Mikiso Hane actually says on page 39 of his general historical survey of Japan that Okura was "a Korean who lived in Japan", then he had a poor grasp of the scholarly consensus on this issue, and is directly contradicted by the vast majority of reliable secondary sources, who either hold to the majority opinion that Okura was the son of a Kudaran medical doctor named Okuni, but was either born in Japan or (while still an infant) was taken by his father who fled the peninsula when Kudara fell, or hold one of the minority views like that he was a sutra copyist or a member of the "Yamanoue clan" who claimed imperial descent. No sober historian trained in the relevant area refers to him as "a Korean who lived in Japan".
- But I don't actually think it's the case that Hane disagrees with the mainstream view: I think he says something else, and you are deliberately misquoting him in order to get around the consensus that has already been established on this issue on the relevant talk page. If you want your personal opinion of Yamanoue no Okura's "nationality" to be cited anywhere on English Misplaced Pages, please ask User:Cckerberos, User:Sturmgewehr88 and User:Shii to take back their earlier statements on the issue, or find other neutral third-parties who agree with you. Please do not edit war to maintain an anti-consensus wording in a separate fork article.
- Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:00, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
- Also (and this point just occurred to me now) you cited Ramsey as holding this view and were reverted; you then cited a different Ramsey source and falsely attributed his view to another scholar; when called out on this, you claimed Ramsey is "just one of many"who hold this view. Care to name one? You seem to have lied about your more recent source (I say "lied" because it's inconceivable you read the source closely enough to pick out a tiny piece of data like that but accidentally failed to notice the name of the author) in order to give the false impression that it was written by someone other than your previous source, and then directly stated that presenting the view as being held by more than one scholar is your goal. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:05, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Hijiri 88: I do not appreciate being accused of "lying" (as you put it). The book by Mikiso Hane says, "Another significant literary accomplishment of this period was the compilation of the Manyoshu... The Korean influence is also present in the anthology. One of the three main poets of the Manyoshu, Yamanoe Okura, it is now believed, was a Korean immigrant in Japan." What more do we need than this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TH1980 (talk • contribs) 00:58, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
- @TH1980: You deliberately misrepresented the author of your source as being someone other than the author of your previous source, and then explicitly stated that it was your intention to show that this view was held by more than one scholar -- what do you want me to call that?
- As for Okura: What you need to do is go hunt down more sources on the Korean influence on the 萬葉集, then add that information to our article on the 萬葉集, not here. Additionally, if that is the exact quote, then your edit was indeed a misrepresentation of the source. That "Korean influence" was probably present in the very first waka anthology, which was mostly forgotten between the 10th and 18th centuries, and this Korean influence was only discovered in the latter half of the 20th century, does not "show the Korean influence on Japanese culture". It's also impossible to read that quote as saying the influence is "by by Yamanoe Okura, a Korean who lived in Japan". It's not only historically anachronistic (how do you define "Korean"?), but also borderline racist to call 帰化人 and 渡来人 "Koreans living in Japan". The only way you could read your source the way you have is if you wanted to reinstate poorly-sourced text that was removed from this article months ago -- months, in fact, before you under your current user name even edited this article.
- Tell me, how did you come across this page, and why did you reinstate claims that had already been removed months before you came across this article? Who are you, and which other accounts have you used?
- Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:54, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Hijiri 88: I do not appreciate being accused of "lying" (as you put it). The book by Mikiso Hane says, "Another significant literary accomplishment of this period was the compilation of the Manyoshu... The Korean influence is also present in the anthology. One of the three main poets of the Manyoshu, Yamanoe Okura, it is now believed, was a Korean immigrant in Japan." What more do we need than this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TH1980 (talk • contribs) 00:58, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Hijiri 88: Fair enough.TH1980 (talk) 03:56, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
- There is no doubt that the material on Yamanoe no Okura should be included in some form. Mikiso Hane's book is a perfectly fine and reliable source to use, but I've seen the same thing noted in other sources. For instance, Roy Andrew Miller concurs with this theory in his article "Plus Ça Change" for the Journal of Asian Studies. Miller also says that, according to Yamanoe no Okura's biographer Nakanishi Susumu, there are direct corollaries between Yamanoe no Okura's poetic style and earlier Korean poetry. Of course I'm aware that there are other theories about Okura, and we could mention those as well. Alternatively we could simply insert "According to Mikiso Hane" at the beginning of the sentence so that the readers know that it is Hane's viewpoint. However, one way or another, there is still no justification at all for completely deleting this material. We just need to tweak the text in order to find a version we can all agree upon.
- I feel the same way about the Katakana-Kugyol connection. Many if not most scholars do advocate this theory. Not only does the source which was previously cited say that the connection in question "seems certain", but moreover I notice that the previous source which was cited here was a book co-written by Ki-Moon Lee and S. Robert Ramsey which states that "many in Japan as well as Korea" agree with this theory. An article in the Japan Times, "Katakana system may be Korean, professor says", also reports that the latest evidence gives strong support to this theory. Scholars don't know for sure when exactly Katakana and Kugyol were first developed, and I'm aware that other theories about the origins of Katakana do exist, but there is still no reason to delete the text in question entirely. This theory is advocated by a very large body of reputable scholars, so it is clearly worth a mention. As I said before, we might need to tweak the text to find a version we agree upon, but that is still not a justification for deleting it entirely. Furthermore, there is no reason to force this article to line up with the article on Kugyol because that articles does not contain any citations to speak of. It should go without saying that a reliably sourced statement in one Misplaced Pages article does not need to be changed to match an unsourced claim in another Misplaced Pages article.CurtisNaito (talk) 02:00, 5 May 2015 (UTC)