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I propose that this entire section should be deleted as off-topic. The OP created it as a substitute for his/her inability to place the Systematic Bias tag in the article, and as a substitute to placing valid justifications for that tag. This already over-extended talk page is not a suitable forum for other articles / other subjects discussions, and the OP has read the advice given so there is no reason to keep it. ] (]) 21:08, 26 April 2015 (UTC) |
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I propose that this entire section should be deleted as off-topic. The OP created it as a substitute for his/her inability to place the Systematic Bias tag in the article, and as a substitute to placing valid justifications for that tag. This already over-extended talk page is not a suitable forum for other articles / other subjects discussions, and the OP has read the advice given so there is no reason to keep it. ] (]) 21:08, 26 April 2015 (UTC) |
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: Not bothered one way or the other. Loads of space on the servers and it is not emitting CO<sub>2</sub>... well the recording of it anyway, though I can imagine the creation of it might well have been accompanied by copious venting of the stuff. ] (]) 21:33, 26 April 2015 (UTC) |
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: Not bothered one way or the other. Loads of space on the servers and it is not emitting CO<sub>2</sub>... well the recording of it anyway, though I can imagine the creation of it might well have been accompanied by copious venting of the stuff. ] (]) 21:33, 26 April 2015 (UTC) |
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== Tittle suggestion: Why this is considered as Genocide? == |
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https://en.wikipedia.org/Tehcir_Law |
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https://en.wikipedia.org/Ethnic_cleansing#Ethnic_cleansing_vs._genocide |
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According to wikipedia, this should be considered as Ethnic cleansing, not genocide. |
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--] (]) 16:20, 24 April 2015 (UTC) |
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:Hello IP. A warm welcome to ] from the little consenters also editing here. Genocide is a precisely defined term in international law you can read about ]. The essential distinction between ethic cleansing and genocide is explained in the second link you provide. In this case the deportation orders of 1915-1916 and the massacres that ensued during the marches are plainly genocide, while the subsequent massacres in later years after the end of World War I were at the very least genocidal in character since a continuity in both policy and in parties to the massacres can be demonstrated. ] (]) 16:43, 24 April 2015 (UTC) |
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::Two words: ]. And please, this question has been asked a gazillion times already; remember, this is ]. --] (]) 19:42, 24 April 2015 (UTC) |
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::: ] did not provide the legal definition of "genocide", and now that we have moved away from ] inevitably the Talk Page will become more discursive. What do the big consenters incidentally think of my three proposals? I was really hoping you would take over the post World War I massacres section, showing me how as it were. What do you think of my modest effort so far? I'm sure there's loads of stuff you know to better it.] (]) 19:51, 24 April 2015 (UTC) |
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::::I think this section should have been erased as off-topic. Misplaced Pages is not a source, so the anon's suggestion had no validity. A short reply like that, if erasure was not the answer, is all that was needed to be said, not three separate posts. This talk page with its archives is already impossibly long so I think editors need to take more responsibility for controlling what gets onto it. ] (]) 16:35, 26 April 2015 (UTC) |
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::::: We chirp. I think if the Talk page get a lot of these sort of things, then we're justified in dealing with them brusquely. So far, I'm content to answer them as they come. Misplaced Pages is currently in crisis , no longer the encyclopaedia anyone can edit, because amongst other things we are not welcoming enough. Apparently the rot set in about eight years ago. Just doing my bit for the new order. But right, Tiptoe, if it irritates you, tell me straight out in no uncertain terms. I can handle it, honest. No shrinking violet me. Thanks for your post on irredentism. ] (]) 21:00, 26 April 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::::Just got round to reading that article on Misplaced Pages. Maybe one day maybe I'll see an article written by someone who actually knows Misplaced Pages. "The loose collective running the site today" - come on, the reality is the exact opposite! A system where only administrators propose and appoint administrators produces a very close-knit and hive-minded cult of administrators, not a loose collective. ] (]) 23:17, 4 May 2015 (UTC) |
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As long as you kill the people who are victims of ethnic cleansing, it is genocide. Of course ethnic cleansing can also mean that you force people to leave a particular area. --] (]) 18:49, 11 May 2015 (UTC) |
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== Errors of fact in the lede == |
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Two significant errors of fact in the lede remain. An attempt by me to correct those in a non-contentious way, after elaborate discussion in the section ], was not only reverted by editors but referred to Arbcom as evidence of non-consensus disruptive editing. |
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The two errors of fact are as follows: |
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#Error of fact 1: " ... was the Ottoman Empire's systematic extermination of its minority Armenian subjects living in their historic homeland within Ottoman Turkey as well as those who lived in other parts of the territory constituting the present-day Republic of Turkey." That is an error because all standard histories of the Armenian Genocide treat also the mass murder (Dadrian's phrase) of Russian Armenians and refugees living outside the Ottoman Empire in territory within the present-day Republic of Armenia. |
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#Error of fact 2: "The genocide was carried out during and after World War I and implemented in two phases ..." That is an error because the mass murder (Dadrian's phrase) that occurred after World War I has yet to be characterised by historians as a genocide in its strict legal sense. It is moreover poor copy because it implies the mass murder was also implemented in two phases, but it was not. |
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What do editors here propose to do about these, other than reverting all my attempts to correct them? |
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:?The diff you gave does not attempt to correct the "historic homeland" thing. Your error of fact 2 is in error: the late WW1 and post WW1 killings have been termed genocide by sources, and have not been separated from the 1915 killings as a distinct event. I think it is the "two phases" thing that is false. Don't know what Armenian vested interest or pov that serves, but surely there will be one. I've taken a tiny part of your diff changes and added them with a small variation. Will see if they remain. Plus I've changed the wording for the deportation of intellectuals bit - many survived so it is not appropriate to state they were killed or tortured and thus suggest all of them died or were tortured. ] (]) 22:52, 4 May 2015 (UTC) |
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:: Ah yes, apologies about the diff. I meant . I'll clarify why I thought that non-contentious in a moment. |
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:: Regarding "genocide" my position is that we should reserve the term for the crime of genocide as defined in international law. Recognising the "Armenian Genocide" is not the same thing as recognising the fact of genocide, as a glance at United States resolutions confirm. What we need most of all for "genocide" is the opinion of recognised historians. I'm hopeful that the European Court of Human Rights will clarify as well in the appeal. In my edits I have always left open the question that the later post war massacres of Russian Armenians and refugees were a genocide and from the outset followed Dadrian and Akcam in describing these attacks as genocidal in intent. |
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:: I looked at both your edits. I thought them acute and don't dispute them. I think it's unlikely that you and I will ever come to blows over this article. I was especially glad to see that you returned my "0.8 to 1.5 million". I've noted on this page that my opponents here are best not advised to wikilawyer me or find fault with my vocab. On my maths they stand not one ] of a chance ... {{smiley}} (the wikilink being deeper than time travel as it happens). |
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:: <sub>At the risk of overextending my welcome (such as it ever was), I'll give the rationale for my . I started with "The Armenian Genocide ... was the Ottoman Empire's systematic extermination of Armenians in its territory and surrounding regions during 1915-1923. The total number of people killed in the genocide has been estimated at between 800,000 to 1.5 million. The initial genocide, carried out during World War I, targeted the Ottoman Empire's minority Armenian subjects living in their historic homeland within territory constituting the present-day Republic of Turkey. Later genocidal attacks targeted Russian Armenians and refugees living outside the Ottoman Empire within territory constituting the present-day Republic of Armenia.". There I first repeated the Armenian Genocide Museum's (AGM) definition, but retained the original "systematic" of the article, which is not in the AGM's definition. I introduced "genocide" immediately (as it had not been subsequently) because it not disputed that genocide was committed during the period and that is the commonly understood subtsnace of "Armenian Genocide". I retained "killed" and "800,000" in place of "perished" (unquestionably the right word as ordinary readers of English will know) and "0.8" I originally supplied, because I'm not a diva who can be big-arsed (and god knows some are totally huge) about absolutely everything. The rest was simply a statement of matter of fact about the events, correcting the error of fact that the Armenia Genocide took place solely within the borders of present-day Republic of Turkey. A reverting editor was quite wrong to say that "genocidal attacks" was my OR. It explicitly repeats what Dadrian and Akcam commit to. Moreover it does not preclude characterising the attacks as a genocide later in the article (and in the ] section I started, twice reverted with no input of substance by an editor, I gave due weight from the outset to those historians' views). Finally, concerning my edit, I removed "The genocide was carried out during and after World War I ..." at the start of the second paragraph because that was no longer needed, and substituted "The genocide commencing 1915 was planned ..." where the "1915" so impatiently deleted by another editor, was included <u>precisely</u> so not to imply that the later post war massacres were not also a genocide, as an ordinary reader of English must needs infer as those massacres were of the conventional visceral sort and not implemented in two phases.</sub> |
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::That edit was a carefully considered edit addressing other editors' concerns that I genuinely thought was non-contentious. It was immediately reverted by an editor who took me to an Arbcom procedure with the request that I be banned, so intrusive and non-constructive thought they it. |
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::I don't expect to have much time over the summer editing Misplaced Pages. But unless I am actually banned, I do propose to continue editing here. Meanwhile I shall content myself with standardising the citations until such time I hear from Arbcom as to whether they intend to chop me or not. I gather their proceedings are even more protracted than ECHR's. ] (]) 16:02, 5 May 2015 (UTC) |
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::: @c1cada: 'correcting the error of fact that the Armenia Genocide took place '''solely''' within the borders of present-day Republic of Turkey'. Who said 'solely'? Looks like a straw man. ] (]) 00:14, 6 May 2015 (UTC) |
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{{od}} |
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{{ping|Diranakir}} I don't see how I can be erecting a straw man over '''solely''' when the current definition defines the Armenian genocide as " ... the Ottoman Empire's systematic extermination of its minority Armenian subjects living in their historic homeland within Ottoman Turkey as well as those who lived in other parts of the territory constituting the present-day Republic of Turkey." It's slightly wordier than the original "the Ottoman government's systematic extermination of its minority Armenian subjects inside their historic homeland, which lies within the territory constituting the present-day Republic of Turkey", but in either case it's perfectly clear to an ordinary reader of English that it's defining the Genocide as taking place solely in territory occupied by the present-day Republic of Turkey. That's not true, and even were it true I question its relevance; strictly speaking about as relevant as saying the Holocaust took place in territory occupied by the present-day European Union. Kudos of course for knowing the "straw man" fallacy - can't say I ever did before coming to Misplaced Pages. |
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Put another way, what would your beef be with my attempt to correct it in the edit you reverted, where I inserted "and surrounding regions" per the Armenian Genocide Museum and explicitly referenced the Republic of Armenia in the same way as the Republic of Turkey was? |
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You reverted my entire edit, if I remember correctly, on my use of the word "killings". However, before I came to edit at this article, its '''sole''' reference to the Russian Armenians and refugees experience I wished to record in more detail was the following: |
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: Mass killings continued under the Republic of Turkey during the Turkish–Armenian War phase of Turkish War of Independence. |
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Would you be ok then with my using "mass killings" when I come to ] a new effort at correcting the lede. While you are it, I should much like to hear your comment on an editor's effort to implicate the Republic of Turkey in the Genocide. What's your take on that, please? ] (]) 10:32, 6 May 2015 (UTC) |
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::If you simply want to simply replace words "territory constituting the present-day Republic of Turkey" by "Turkey" in lede ("Ottoman Empire" is not necessarily appropriate as a historical state), that's fine. No one will probably object this. If you want to write about something, which strictly speaking does not fall under definition of Armenian genocide, that's fine too. Create another page (see ) and briefly reflect it in the body of this page. After that, you can try to slightly fix lede - just to make it consistent with body of page. You should realize that making changes on pages like that one is very difficult. ] (]) 13:56, 6 May 2015 (UTC) |
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::: I saw your response at the Arbcom process. I didn't respond, not because I didn't think it worth responding to, but because I'm not terribly interested in the Arbcom proceedings. Of course I'll abide by whatever decision they eventually make (obviously will have to if I'm chopped), but the norms of the community is not something that very fascinates me. For example another editor's contribution there was simply gobbledygook to me and I'm not the slightest bit curious as to what they might portend. I note however that you contributed nothing to my proposals here and I reject your slight that I'm pro-Turkey POV-pushing. As I mentioned , by far the best lede for this article is the French one. An off the cuff translation follows: |
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::::The "Armenian Genocide" was a genocide perpetrated from April 1915 to July 1916 (considered today to have continued until 1923) , in which two thirds of the Armenians then living in the present-day territory of Turkey perished due to deportations, famine, and large-scale massacres. It was planned and executed by the party in power at the time, the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP), better known as the "Young Turks", consisting in particular of the truimvirate of officers Talaat Pasha, Enver Pasha and Jemal Pasha, head of the Ottoman Empire then engaged in World War I as allies of the Central Powers. Considered as the first genocide of the twentieth century, it claimed the lives of about one million two hundred thousand Armenians from Anatolia and Armenia. |
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::: The notes are respectively: |
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:::: Note 1: Recent historiography considers the genocide ended with the signing of the Lausanne Treaty of July 23, 1923, due to the massacres that took place over the period 1920-1923. Similarly, estimates of the number of victims often cover the period 1915-1923. |
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:::: Note 2: This figure is generally accepted by historians of the period; but the record of the massacres and deportations of Armenians is not, however, unanimiously accepted. Anahide Ter Minassian wrote: "If no one now disputes the lethality of forced displacement or the massacres that accompanied them, the controversy has been ever since 1919 the number of victims (1,500,000 according to the Armenians, 600,000 to 800,000 according to the Turks)... " |
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::: An editor might care to notice "perishes". Other good features of this lede I shall happily expand on to interested editors, but not to this editor who testified at Arbcom that I am a pro-Turkey POV-pusher. ] (]) 19:19, 6 May 2015 (UTC) |
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::::::It was not only me who found these your edits problematic (edit summary). ] (]) 00:43, 7 May 2015 (UTC) |
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::::@c1cada: So you have no problem with 'Armenians then living in the present-day territory of Turkey' as a geographic descriptor despite its leaving out the attacks on the Russian Armenians? ] (]) 19:52, 6 May 2015 (UTC) |
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== Revert to stable version == |
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== Revert to stable version == |
The history of human aggression against other humans is lamentable, but it is not unanalyzable. The word "genocide" does not simply mean "someone killing someone else because of his or her ethnic group." Deaths which result from wars between (say) Serbian Christians and Muslim Turks, which have been ongoing for over a thousand years, are not necessarily genocidal, even if ethnically based, or even if at particular moments individual campaigns have been genocidal. "Genocide" has a definition, which most scholars say fits what happened to the Armenians in Anatolia 100 years ago. If you want to claim that what you talk about was also "genocide", fine, find a scholarly source, and go to the article Genocide and add it there. The Armenians would be the first to admit that theirs was not the only genocide that ever occurred. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richardson mcphillips (talk • contribs) 18:29, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
I propose that this entire section should be deleted as off-topic. The OP created it as a substitute for his/her inability to place the Systematic Bias tag in the article, and as a substitute to placing valid justifications for that tag. This already over-extended talk page is not a suitable forum for other articles / other subjects discussions, and the OP has read the advice given so there is no reason to keep it. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:08, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
This article has gone through a lot this past month. A lot of information has been added without consensus mostly by a user who is now topic banned. The harvard refs done by this user is also a disaster. They're not even properly done. I propose reverting this article to a more stable version. If there is any information we'd like to add, it should be done in a constructive and consensus building manner. Étienne Dolet (talk) 09:41, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
I still feel that there must be a reversion made to reinstate a stable version. This current version, as I have already said, has many POV and referencing issues. I suggest reverting it to this version: . I would also like to see some more community input on this. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:07, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
An editor, 92Slim, has repeatedly attempted to insert unreferenced and unsuitable content into the article. , , , . In these edits he has repeatedly inserted into the lead the claim that all of the 24 April arrested notables were killed, in some edits he claims that they were all killed on 24 April. In other edits he claims that they were all executed at a later date. These claims are contrary to the referenced content on Deportation of Armenian intellectuals on 24 April 1915. In other edits he has inserted an unreferenced claim that some were saved by "Turkish intellectuals" (he has been advised by another editor that such content, even if it were to be referenced, is unsuitable for the lead ). He has also been inserting unreferenced content that weasely implies that these arrests were a Turkish response to the Allied landings at Gallipoli because the dates coincided. Of course the dates do not coincide, and there is no reference for content stating that they did, or content stating or implying that there was any direct connection between the two events. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 12:49, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
There was a fact that happened in 24 April 1915.This fact was deportation law and 22 countries define this law as a Armenian genocide and there are a lot of misunderstanding about this fact.
There were almost 1.100.000 Armenian who were living in the borders of Ottoman Empire according to Ottoman Empire archives in 1914 but some of the sources claims that there were 1.800.000 Armenian who were killed but this number is so far from truth.There are some exaggeration about this fact and I just want to share my idea.
After the French Revolution between 1789-1792 there were national movement that changed the world as a result of this firstly empires was affected especially Ottoman Empire which has 72 nations in it. World War 1 between 1914-1918 the empire was facing with a lot of difficulties and Armenian was one of the nation who was using the difficulty times to do abundance.Initially some of the Armenian like Karakin Pastırmacıyan armed and founded several illegal cooperation like Taşnak Hınçak and began the join Russian army.In some cities the rebellious are held and one of them which important was Van Rebellion.After all this Ottoman's Ministry of the interior published a circular that was aim to collect the rebellion's weapon and avoid the another probable bad events in 24 April 1915.After that in Istanbul in 24-25 April night 235 rebellious arrested.After a few time that circular published the rebellious which was arrested was just reached 556.They were scientist that involved in rebellious actions and one of them was German ambassador Hengel.Of course this number increased gradually.With this this circular Ottoman Empire forced to rebellious Armenian to migration.When doing this also Ottoman Empire provided migration security,health security,settlement and all the thing to make this migration better and security.With all this precaution they prevent the probable disaster.Sometimes thousands people can be ignored to save the millions.I used Dr.Yusuf SARINAY's knowledge and Prof.Dr.Kemaleddin KUZUCU's book as a source in this talk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamil MZN (talk • contribs) 17:23, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
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Referencing and citation: criterion not met
Coverage and accuracy: criterion met
