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unclear definition of social work

It would be better to use a narrower definition than what the article goes for (including everything from actual field work through policing to mental care and "pursuit of social justice and the well-being of oppressed and marginalized individuals and communities").

I am missing the mention of henriett bartlett (http://www.socialwelfarehistory.com/people/bartlett-harriett-m/) who wrote The Common Base of Social Work Practicein 1970. The only wiki page on her is a stub in italian. She used to be a leading personality of US based National Association of Social Workers, and her book seems to be often cited (http://lyceumbooks.com/pdf/Sclsocwk7_Chapter_01.pdf). Though I see some reason to doubt its scientific or social value being printed by her own organisation and after 40 years still not available for use as a free text (but this is my personal POW - social work as a state financed institution is non prifit oriented by definition and if i wrote a book that is supposed to make better social workers or a more efficient SW system to help those needing help - i would be a little more eager to spred this knowlege).

So I try to put down some basics about what social work is (perhaps a future editor can use some of this in making the article better).

Number one is as simple and starightforward as to provide basic needs to those lacking them, eg food, shelter, medical care (so as they hopefully become self-reliant in a later point of their life and by their taxes "pay back" contribute. From the point of the giver and the taker it is fine and simple, but from the point of vew of the larger system, the society that ultimately finances this as government spending shows up there are the problems of the social work system and those working in it becoming codependent with those supposedly helped by this system as both gain now their material sources from the social work system's funding.

The second point would be to enable those in need to help themselves (give them fishing net and not fish), so this would be some kind of education (teach a profession that makes them able to find employment - one step up the social ladder; educate about their rights and possibilities to apply for further help, the use of widely available tools/resources - this can go from teaching to read and write to the use of internet to find employment, etc).

The evergreen controversy is those fed by the charity may become dependent on it in which case the sole use of this for the society to please the impowerished so they dont resort to violent criminality.

(When considering social work beyond charity the lines blur and all boils down to beliefs concerning values and the nature of the would be ideal model of society. The question of values and beliefs concerning what society should look like arises especially when enabling the poor puts the goal to rise them from their state - whether they should serve better the existing society or whether the society itself should be reformed to serve better these people.) 84.236.110.228 (talk) 15:37, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Bias?

"As the problem of poverty moved up the public agenda, it became increasingly clear that laissez-faire economic policies were not working and that governments had to take proactive measures to reduce poverty, rather than leave the task to privately run organizations." This needs a citation if it is to be presented as a fact. The bias is rather overwhelming. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.46.248.10 (talk) 01:29, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

official_names

I have removed the official_names parameter from the infobox; it appears to be a list of hyponyms rather than synonyms; it is unsourced; some entries are dubious ("Post-modern Social Worker"?) jnestorius 02:09, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Social Worker (SW),
State Registered Social Worker,
Registered Social Worker (RSW),
Qualified Social Worker,
Qualified Care Manager,
Forensic Social Worker,
Psychiatric Psychologist,
Rehabilitation Social Worker,
Licensed Social Worker,
Clinical Social Worker,
Mental Health Social Worker,
Medical Social Worker,
Childrens/School Social Workers,
Special needs Social Worker,
Developmental Disability Social Worker,
Addictions(Drugs and Alcohol) Social Worker,
Gerontological Social Worker,
Child and Youth Care Social Worker (CYW),
Social Work Practitioner,
Military Social Work Officer,
Social Policy and Planning Social Worker,
Community Development Social Worker,
Social Advocacy Social Worker,
Social Welfare Social Worker,
Activist Social Worker,
Correctional Social Worker,
Post-modern/ Critical Social Worker,
Human Rights Social Worker,
Human Resource Social Work Manager,
Direct/ Indirect service Social Worker,
Hospital Administration Social Worker,
International Social Worker

jnestorius 02:09, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

February 2016

Revisions made in consensus with Jim1138, (talk). 117.215.194.94 09:49, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

You are misrepresenting me. I never gave wp:consensus. Do not do that again.

Your links show a recommended path to getting a position as a social worker, but you fail to show that a degree is required to be a social worker. Jim1138 (talk) 20:25, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Interjecting as a random bystander: this looks like something that varies between nations. ~~In the UK, you must have a degree in social work in order to be a social worker (see the gov.uk website here).~~ (I've double-checked and this isn't accurate; see my comment below.) The "globalise" template and a section explaining differences in requirements between nations, if there are any, may be a good way to resolve this dispute. Marianna251TALK 10:20, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Note: I've removed the IP's additions per WP:BRD; they should not be re-added until consensus is gained here. To clarify the lead however I've added the words "as a professional" to indicate that social workers per se are professionals (which would encompass degrees, etc.). In other words, any old person who peforms tasks similar to social work is not automatically a "social worker". Softlavender (talk) 09:01, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

A confusion seems to exist with Social services and Social Work. Both of them are different, even if practice of welfare might seem similar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.213.19.177 (talk • contribs) 07:40, 02 March 2016 (UTC)

The user talk page of 117.215.194.94 seems to have achieved a consensus between Jim1138 and no further conversations are seen to be evoked. Later describing there has been no consensus is kind of idiotic. I am reverting Softlavender edit because those edits seemed to be previously accepted by other editors and was removed by Cynulliad. So that edit itself makes an misguided edit. Marianna251 provided links also support the removed paragraph. 24.3.189.166 and 117.213.19.177 conversation also indicates Social Work as a professional service along with Softlavender point, "any old person who performs tasks similar to social work is not automatically a social worker". Links by Softlavender where removed because it was looked over by User:lowercase sigmabot III earlier. But those links seems useful. Thank you Marianna251 for correction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.242.254.54 (talk) 10:19, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're talking about re: Softlavender's edit. You deleted an edit of theirs off from the talk page twice now, once after I'd already warned you not to, which is a) against talk page guidelines, and b) seriously not cool. Cynulliad has made various edits to the main article but hasn't removed anything of Softlavender's either here or on the article, so I'm not sure what you're referring to there. Regardless, please do not delete or edit other users' comments on talk pages. Please don't move them, either, as you've just done; moving comments changes the context and therefore the meaning, same as editing or deleting them. I've moved the comments back to their original location. Marianna251TALK 10:34, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

The edit was removed by lowercase sigmabot III, i simply followed it because it looked like dictionary links. Though when checked it seemed useful to the conversation.So i moved it above for a clear perspective. Cynulliad edits removed article content, It doesnt have anything to with talk page content. If moving back those comments seems to be appropriate I am cool with it, just a passerby. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.89.238.210 (talk) 10:52, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm still not sure what you're talking about; Sigmabot is a bot that archives old talk page discussions. It didn't move or delete Softlavender's links. I'm not trying to be harsh or accusative here, I'm just genuinely not sure what you're talking about and I want to make sure I haven't missed something. Thanks for the explanation about the move, btw. Marianna251TALK 10:59, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

117.242.254.54: I never gave my blessing to adding statements that a "social worker" requires a degree. A satisfactory citation supporting such a statement was never added. Just links to articles suggesting a route to becoming a social worker involved getting a degree. 117.215.194.94 above misinterpreted me at best Jim1138 (talk) 10:57, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Jim1138 "How to Become a Social Worker" is more than enough and the differences between professions are shown by other editors. A good understanding is already generated. If you are not able to accept that, it comes under point pushing. Other things you have to work out with 117.215.194.94. Reverted Jim1138 based on BRD and Edit War. The previous reversion that was done was based on BRD Guidelines: "Revert an edit if it is not an improvement". It also was a cited material. I suggest refinement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.89.238.210 (talk • contribs) 11:09 3 March 2016

Please sign your talk page comments with four tildes "~~~~" What you are saying is wp:original research. You are drawing the conclusion. Please also read wp:reliable sources - That conclusion must be stated in the source, not your own wp:synthesis. Jim1138 (talk) 11:14, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

BRD reverts to the original version, not to your preferred version. Jim1138 (talk) 11:17, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

General comment to User:117.215.194.94, User:117.242.254.54, User:117.213.19.177 and User:59.89.238.210: it looks like you're the same person as all of these IPs geolocate to the same location and are registered to the same address in India. Please could you sign up for an account? That way we can have a clear discussion without getting confused as to who is who - and, not incidentally, avoid accusations of (self-edited for clarity) sockpuppetry. Marianna251TALK 11:12, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Again Marianna251, all this edits are from an vandalism attempt. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Social_work&type=revision&diff=707887822&oldid=707887283 The fact that I don't understand is how come a cited material is removed or a content is deleted without checking. Allegations of sockpuppetery is not cool. It doesn't help with the intent of this conversation. If your concerns were made based on consensus policies or methods. It would be productive. 59.89.238.210 (talk) 11:18, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

I should have said that creating an account may prevent accusations of sockpuppetry; I apologise. Also, please note that edits are not vandalism. Marianna251TALK 11:25, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Its O.K . What about the content and other factors can you look into it. The provided edit was removal of an existing content without any clear reasoning. 59.89.238.210 (talk) 11:29, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

That was very clear reasoning. Get consensus first. Jim1138 (talk) 11:41, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

I've read the material and I don't think it should be in the lead of the article. It's referenced and informative, but its source only concerns how to become a social worker in America. Since the article is about social work as a whole, not just American social work, I think it would be misleading to keep this information there because it implies a worldwide view that may or may not be correct. If we can find a source which states that a degree is required to be a social worker in every country in the world (or at least the vast majority), it would be different. I have no objections to moving this content into the body of the article - although I think it's already covered in there - but I think we'd need to do significantly more research before I'd be comfortable with it in the lead. Hope that explains my position. Marianna251TALK 11:45, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Actually, I've double-checked, and my previous comment about social work in the UK was wrong - you do not need a degree in social work to become a social worker in the UK. You're qualified to be a social worker if you have a postgraduate diploma in social work, which can be obtained without having an undergraduate degree in social work. The diploma often forms part of a master's degree in SW, but doesn't have to. So this edit definitely shouldn't be in the lead because it's factually incorrect as currently worded. Marianna251TALK 12:07, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

The best example is Lionel Logue portrayed in The King's Speech Jim1138 (talk) 12:14, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

The first source doesn't really say that a degree is required, just that if you want to become a social worker, what degree one should get. http://www.learnhowtobecome.org/social-worker/ The closest it comes is this statement: A four-year bachelor degree in social work or a related field is required for most entry-level position This source does not contain a page number nor an ISBN: 101 Careers in Social Work, 2nd Edition, J.A. Ritter 2015 Jim1138 (talk) 11:57, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Material for consideration and review

@Marianna251, Ymblanter, and Jim1138: and to other interested editors

To earn a postgraduate diploma, you are required to have a undergraduate degree. Your earlier contribution was right. Check under What are the entry requirements?: https://www.prospects.ac.uk/postgraduate-study/postgraduate-diplomas-and-certificates . The statement "minimum requirement" for entry-level position is enough. Jim1138 ISBN No.could be found at http://www.springerpub.com/101-careers-in-social-work-second-edition.html

I am adding some excerpts for clear understanding from the book:

Page 4

One very simple definition of social work is that it is the study of social problems and human behavior. Thus social workers address any number of important social problems in this country and around the world, including, but not limited to

Poverty and homelessness
Child abuse, neglect, and exploitation
Disabilities
Teen pregnancy, suicide, and other problems facing youth
Family problems such as poor communication, divorce, and family
violence
Sexual violence
Depression, anxiety, and other mental health disorders
Community problems such as crime, substandard schools, violence, and lack of jobs and community resources
Supporting older adults
Assisting immigrants and refugees
Working with individuals diagnosed with chronic or terminal illnesses
Discrimination against individuals who have been oppressed in U.S. society, such as those living in poverty, women, racial/ethnic minorities,sexual minorities, and those with disabilities
Substance abuse/addictions
Crisis intervention (e.g., natural disasters; mass shootings)

Page 5

Myth #4: Anyone who has a job that involves helping others can be called a “social worker.” Fact: Only those who have earned a degree in social work can call themselves a social worker. In some countries, you must also be licensed to use this title.

To be able to use the title of social worker, in most states you must have a degree in social work (BSW or MSW) and be licensed by the state.(This is the US Version as given in the text)

links example

I hope all these clears the issue and proper revisions will be made in the article without edit warring, point pushing , meat puppetry and moves to disable anon editors. 59.89.238.210 (talk) 14:09, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

The wording of the proposed edit states that only someone with a degree in social work, at whatever level, can be called a social worker. This is simply not accurate for the UK. A degree is required to undertake a postgraduate diploma, but the degree can be in anything, and the diploma itself does not constitute a degree, thus you can achieve a diploma in social work without having any form of degree in social work. That means that a degree in social work is not required be a social worker in the UK. If you'd like to reword the proposed edit to make this clear, that's fine, but it's not accurate as it currently stands. Marianna251TALK 14:19, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

I dont think UK takes professional social work lightly and that anyone can be a social worker. With HCPC's all inclusive format those who have a Degree in another subject: It states "If you already have a degree in a subject other than social work, you could do a two-year postgraduate master’s degree in social work. Or, as a graduate you could apply for a work based route into qualifying as a social worker. Through work based route, In the first year you’ll work towards a postgraduate diploma in social work and in the second year a master’s qualification." - See more at: https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/jobprofiles/Pages/socialworker.aspx#sthash.K8EMFDBx.dpuf

59.89.238.210 (talk) 14:25, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I have read that. However, if you look into the training programmes listed on that page, you'll note that they all say that you only need the diploma to be a social worker: for example, "The first qualifies you as a social worker through direct work with children and families. The second year leads to a full Master's qualification as you work as a newly qualified social worker" (from here.) The government-run workplace training scheme, Step Up to Social Work, only confers a diploma and not a master's. You only need the diploma to be a social worker, not a degree, which makes the proposed edit incorrect. Marianna251TALK 14:36, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm also bemused by the implication that the UK would "take professional social work lightly" if a degree in social work is not required to be a social worker. There's a big difference between "doesn't need a degree specifically in social work" and "job anyone can do". Marianna251TALK 14:40, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Frontline's is a 2-year training scheme. The complete program aims for Masters degree. For those drop-out with the first year, they receive a diploma - there time and energy is not wasted. Step Up to Social Work is program where graduates will be able to register as social workers with the HCPC and the training hours in the 14 months are also added to the credit hours, which eventually equals to a postgraduate program. Also most postgraduate or Masters course in UK are only 1 year, which is about 8-12 months. In the case of Step Up to Social Work, it seems as advanced course with 14 months. You only need the diploma to register as a social worker through HCPC, ideally require a degree, which makes the reversion of an earlier edit passable as you suggested, the least for rewording or refinement without content deletion. Please don't take any implication that isn't written. The provided link mentions 12 month assessment and that made me to write UK doesn't take social work lightly. I think one can add the word "doesn't need a degree specifically in social work" with the other additional requirements or go with the ideal situation. "job anyone can do" was for Jim1138 implication and edit war even after resources given or for using deletion, notification and blocking as primary tools for editing. 59.89.238.210 (talk) 14:51, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

I disagree with the idea that social work "ideally" requires a degree in SW, but otherwise, that sounds reasonable. I'd like to see any proposed rewording before I agree to it in full, though.

On another note, I still have concerns regarding a point I made earlier, which is that we have no source demonstrating that this is a worldwide state of affairs. Adding unverified information to the lead is likely to be misleading at best, flat-out wrong at worst. Have you had any thoughts on that? Marianna251TALK 14:57, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

I am not an expert. I only have knowledge about the subject from books and online resources. But I disagree with actions like removing previously accepted content, misleading material, overuse of policies that can stall quality of articles, lack of evidence based methodologies for dispute resolution...etc. Adding countries like Australia, Canada...etc require a degree in social work and countries like U.K require at least a postgraduate diploma, if the person doesn't have a basic degree in social work, could be added in the future if an editor is willing. If the editor is not willing to add resources, deleting the content that mentions the information with resources disables future users of wikipedia to make use of it and the opportunity to expand it later. Knowledge is always expanding, so there wouldn't be any misleading and if the resources mention facts it wouldn't be misleading. These are my thoughts. Ideally social workers require a degree or a postgraduate degree or a postgraduate diploma after graduate degree. A claiming social worker with British Step-up program, CQSW or DipSW are not considered as a social worker in other countries. But Social workers with British BSW's or MSW's are considered as qualified around the world -with professional memberships or equivalency assessments. Intensive postgraduate diplomas are also accepted with equivalency assessment. 59.89.238.210 (talk) 15:24, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Hang on, let's be clear here. We are not "removing previously accepted content". You are trying to add content that has not been accepted. Your edits have been repeatedly reverted because other editors disagree with the edit and you have not achieved consensus on the matter. This discussion, here, is us trying to achieve consensus over what should or should not be added to the article. Please don't misrepresent the situation.

The rest of your argument looks like original research to me, i.e. "material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist". Your current sources do not back up the idea that social work requires a degree across the whole world, and the idea that "knowledge is always expanding" so these sources might be available one day does not matter, because we do not have them right now. Marianna251TALK 17:45, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

59.89.238.21 - Your source (http://www.learnhowtobecome.org/social-worker/) does not state that a degree is required. It just states "to be a social worker, get a degree". You are taking that concluding "therefore, a degree is required to be a social worker". That is a unsupported conclusion. You have the WP:BURDEN. That stays off the page until you can cite a WP:RS.

Your second reference to 101 Careers in Social Work, 2nd Edition, J.A. Ritter, 2015 lists no page number. People, including myself, are not going to read the entire book to find what you are referring to. Jim1138 (talk) 20:18, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

I don't understand why both the registered editors are fighting. Clear sources are given. Edits like https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Social_work&diff=706201376&oldid=705930146 , https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Social_work&diff=706204757&oldid=706203578 clearly show what 59.89.238.21 is saying.-Please don't misrepresent in light of facts. Even Marianna251 link says you require some sort of sw qualification- this is a point that person agrees and disagrees as unsupported, if the qualification requirement is removed this is highly misleading. I didn't find any original research as Marianna251 later quotes. Editors like Jim1138 concerns are not legitimate and only should be given that value. For lazy people and who cant take the burden, excerpts from the book page 5 is given clearly, avoiding this and asking others to stay off and talking about giving blessings are all clear indications of what the editor is intending with his edits. I am sure even if the rest of editors agree with the source Jim1138 will say Springer Publishing resources are not valid or something else.117.215.194.25 (talk) 01:12, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

You need to understand how Misplaced Pages works. If others disagree with your edit, you don't get to force it on them. It needs to be discussed on the talk page first. Please read and understand wp:BRD, wp:consensus, and wp:edit warring. (Also, given your comment above, see wp:civil) All of which essentially state: "if others disagree with your edit, talk about it first. Then make changes per consensus". If you are not willing to abide by these policies, please don't edit Misplaced Pages. At this point, whether or not Springer Publishing and any other sources you have listed are valid is irrelevant. Discuss first. A "Change paragraph x (quote exactly) to y (quote exactly)" is how it should be done.

BTW: that Myth / Fact quote does not exclude the dictionary definition of A person who practices social work professionally is called a social worker. So, the dictionary definition should stay. Also: "professionally" does not seem to be in the dictionary definition that often. One could, without pay, spend a lot of time trying to get governments and/or corporations to change how they treat people, i.e. social work and by definition a "social worker". Jim1138 (talk) 10:37, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Kindly provide your sources that exactly define "One could, without pay, spend a lot of time trying to get governments and/or corporations to change how they treat people, i.e. social work and by definition a "social worker"". Changing the tone or dragging the conversation to irrelevant matters are not worthy efforts. Though what you say and what others support you on it by discrediting themselves is also sad. Jim1138 your definitions are like a blacksmith is an engineer. Earlier editors have shown clear difference. The sources given also validates with reverted material. Your efforts are simply point pushing.(I am glad that you said springer publisher texts doesnt have much credit to be worth for wikipedia content- you just proved a point) Hey, Luck and Support is with you guys, let the future editors say what you do is good or not. Those who felt as uncivil kindly do forgive because this was not the intent it was only identifying x as x and y as y. Those who are lenient do provide wp:BRD,wp:consensus and wp:edit warring - case studies which show how a BRD solution is achieved, how consensus is achieved on a matter when edits have simply become nonsensical in light of solid proofs and A level of interaction that is done with a positive outcome which isn't edit war.-Maybe in future this could be useful before registering. I am 117.215.194.25, But I am not what Softlavender says who all i am, so that effort clearly aims at something or does it come under wp:civil - who knows. If you have concerns you can ask directly. God I didn't know this poisonous wikipedia was and its contents could be, with some skilled editors. I loathe the days I used wikipedia for authoritative source. But that too would be wrong to say I have had some good resources from wikipedia.117.248.60.62 (talk) 19:37, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

A few links

For what it's worth:

-- Softlavender (talk) 09:05, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Note: IP-hopper

These IP accounts are all the same editor:

Just to let everyone know. Softlavender (talk) 07:38, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

/Archive 3

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