Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:56, 3 May 2016

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Fishes Mid‑importance This article is part of WikiProject Fishes, an attempt to organise a detailed guide to all topics related to Fish taxa. To participate, you can edit the attached article, or contribute further at WikiProject Fishes. This project is an offshoot of the WikiProject Tree of Life.FishesWikipedia:WikiProject FishesTemplate:WikiProject FishesFishes Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Fisheries and Fishing Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Fisheries and Fishing, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of fisheries, aquaculture and fishing on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Fisheries and FishingWikipedia:WikiProject Fisheries and FishingTemplate:WikiProject Fisheries and FishingFishing Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Neuroscience Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Neuroscience, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Neuroscience on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.NeuroscienceWikipedia:WikiProject NeuroscienceTemplate:WikiProject Neuroscienceneuroscience Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

A fact from Pain in fish appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know column on 15 September 2009 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know ... that the British RSPCA now formally prosecutes individuals who are cruel to fish? A record of the entry may be seen at Misplaced Pages:Recent additions/2009/September.

Pain in fish was nominated as a Natural sciences good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (October 1, 2009). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3

This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present.

lets take it one section at a time - opening statements

OK, the opening statements in the page are fine for the first few paragraphs, then this one pops up with the following content that is "all one way"

"Fish fulfill several criteria proposed as indicating that non-human animals may experience pain. These fulfilled criteria include a suitable nervous system and sensory receptors, opioid receptors and reduced responses to noxious stimuli when given analgesics and local anaesthetics, physiological changes to noxious stimuli, displaying protective motor reactions, exhibiting avoidance learning and making trade-offs between noxious stimulus avoidance and other motivational requirements."

Thats fine, but its not the whole story. To balance this one way traffic, and better reflect the current scientific non-concensus surrounding this issue, I consider the following facts should also be included here.

"However, on the other hand science also shows there are also several neurobiological features in fish and elasmobranchs that suggest they are unlikely to be capable of pain perception, while modification of behaviour with drugs does not necessarily indicate pain (Key 2015)."

The latter statement is also backed up by Newby and Stevens (2008) who when criticised by Sneddon (for getting different results to her, mind you) noted that Sneddon in her trout experiments used anaethetics prior to treatments, which put her views contrary to those of essentially all researchers who study pain in animals. They also pointed out she also used an extreme overdose of morphine that would have been lethal to mammals - noting that this overdose surprisingly did not kill the trout but probably had unknown behavioural effects - all in all showing much doubt that the results of her study were at all reliable and repeatable. Thus lack of knowledge about pharacokinetics of morphine in fish lead Newby and Stevens to then investigate the effects of morphine on rainbow trout in another paper .

In other words, the way Newby and Stevens approached the issue upheld higher scientific standards to the work done by Sneddon, and surprise surprise, they came to different conclusions. The fact, (pointed out by Epipelagic) that Sneddons paper gets more citations than Newby and Stevens is not due to the formers paper being of higher scientific quality, its probably the opposite - its simply more controversial, while the fact that papers showing negative results are being ignored by the public is simply what happens when the media is after headlines - they don't let the facts get in the way of a good story and who wants to publish negative results ?. Anyway, lets see if you agree to my first suggested edit. Professor Pelagic (talk) 02:10, 24 October 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Professor Pelagic (talk • contribs) 02:07, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

I do not see it that way. I have looked closely at the articles and below I have pasted sentences I believe are relevant. Most are direct quotes. I would also point out this discussion appears to relate only to morphine - effects of other analgesics are in the article.

Newby and Stevens (2008) The effects of the acetic acid “pain” test on feeding, swimming, and respiratory responses of rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss). Applied Animal Behaviour Science 114,(1-2), Pages 260–269 ]

The purpose of the present study was to examine the response of rainbow trout that were not anaesthetised during the acetic acid test. Nine of the 16 fish from both acetic acid treated groups lost equilibrium for 1.7 ± 0.6 min before returning to an upright position swimming normally in the current. The respiratory frequency of all fish significantly increased by 69% (P < 0.001) after treatment; the saline and control group returned to their resting levels after 120 min while the acetic acid groups were 12% higher than resting levels 120 min after treatment until the experiment was terminated at 360 min. Food was presented 15 min after treatment and every fish ate immediately. Compared with two previous studies that used anaesthetised rainbow trout, the acetic acid test in the current study negatively affected the swimming behavioural response for a much shorter duration and did not affect the feeding behavioural response. However, results for respiratory frequency were comparable to those of anaesthetised rainbow trout in the other work.

On balance, I think this study provides excellent evidence for the experience of pain in fish and should be included as such, if we can overcome the ethical considerations.

Sneddon replies here]

Newby and Stevens’ (2008)... used a different protocol. 2% acetic acid topically destroys nociceptor output and the neuron effectively dies (Ashley et al., 2006, 2007). Therefore, the lack of anomalous rubbing behaviours and resumption of feeding in the Newby and Stevens (2008) experiment can be attributed to them injecting such a high concentration of acid. If no nociceptive information is being conducted to the central nervous system then no behavioural changes will be elicited. Sneddon further argues in a compelling way that the cylindrical tanks and barren conditions used by Newby and Stevens "may preclude the ability to perform behaviours such as rocking..."

DrChrissy 14:32, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

That is interesting, because Newby and Stevens, if you correspond with them, they will tell you they certainly do not think their study provided any confirmation of a "pain" response. You are jumping to a conclusion that the authors did not make. The issues with the % of acetic acid used in the various experiments were discussed in Rose et al (2014) where they point out the most significant difference between the two studies (Sneddons vs Newby and Stevens 2008) was the use of anesthesia for injections by Sneddon (which masked some transient non-specific behavioural changes (loss of equilibrium)in the fish that were observed by Newby and Stevens), while the anaesthetic also confounded Sneddons results (i.e. rocking behaviors due to recovery from the anaesthetic were interpreted by Sneddon as being evidence of "pain"). Further, Rose et al. (2014) point out in a reply to the Newby and Stevens paper, Sneddon (2009) said that her 2003 study employed 0.1% acid injections and that the 2% injections used by Newby and Stevens would have destroyed nociceptive afferents, but her counterargument was contradicted by the fact that in the study by Sneddon et al. (2003b) 2% acetic acid was used because she said it had more sustained behavioral effects on rainbow trout than the 0.1% concentration, and Reilly et al. (2008a) used 5 and 10% acetic acid injections with carp and 5% injections with zebrafish Danio rerio (Cyprinidae). So you can now see that Sneddon contradicts herself - first she says 2% acetic acid kills the nociceptors, then she and her students use 2%, 5% and 10% in other experiments - so if this makes Newby and Stevens results invalid, does this make her other experiments invalid too ? The barren tank argument is simply a crock as well, why would that influence anything when fish have been held in bare experimental aquaria for controlled experiments since year dot. This is why the red flags go up when scientists start to review Sneddons work, the contradictions, inconsistencies, inability of others to get the same results when they repeat the experiments, and so on. So no, you cannot use those arguments here, as they have already been exposed as invalid in the peer reviewed literature.Professor Pelagic (talk) 12:06, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

References

1. Newby, N.C. and Stevens, E.D. (2009) The effects of the acetic acid “pain” test on feeding, swimming, and respiratory responses of rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss): a critique on Newby and Stevens (2008)— response. Applied Animal Behaviour Science 116, 97–99.
2. Newby, N.C., Robinson, J.W., Vachon, P., Beaudry, F. and Stevens, E.D. (2008) Pharmacokinetics of morphine and its metabolites in freshwater rainbow trout Oncorhynchus mykiss). Journal of Veterinary Pharmacolology and Therapeutics 31, 117–127
3. Rose JD, Arlinghaus R, Cooke SJ, Diggles BK, Sawynok W, Stevens ED, Wynne CDL (2014). Can fish really feel pain ? Fish and Fisheries 15: 97-133
4. Sneddon, L.U., Braithwaite, V.A. and Gentle, M.J. (2003b) Novel object test: examining nociception and fear in the rainbow trout. Journal of Pain 4, 431–440.
5. Reilly, S.C., Quinn, J.P., Cossins, A.R. and Sneddon, L.U. (2008a) Behavioral analysis of a nociceptive event in fish: comparisons between three species demonstrate specific responses. Applied Animal Behaviour Science 114, 248–249.

You are not using valid grounds for your dismissal of citation counts. You seem to think citation counts are the number of backlinks from newspapers and the general media, and so are a measure of exposure in the public press. They aren't. They are a count of the number of times a paper was regarded as sufficiently significant for another researcher to refer to in another academic publication. In general, citation counts are a very good indicator of how notable a paper or author is within the mainstream scientific community. It may be as you claim on this talk page that Newby's science is more rigorous than Sneddon's. But you cannot put that in the article unless you can cite a secondary source which says the same thing. Otherwise you are engaged in original research. When you are being a Misplaced Pages editor, you are playing a different game with different rules from being, say, a marine biologist. Both roles have different hats. It is not the job of Misplaced Pages editors to assess which papers are "most scientific". A key policy on Misplaced Pages is verification. You could of course put on your biologist's hat, write a review article setting out your views and get it published by a reputable journal. Then you could come back here, put your Misplaced Pages editor's hat on, and cite your publication as verification. It's a game, and you have to know and play by the rules. --Epipelagic (talk) 10:55, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I worded a detailed reply to this last night, and placed it up here, but it is not here today so I must assume it has been deleted by someone else. I was not sure whether that is possible or not, but I guess it is ? In any case I do not have to write a paper on the relative merits of Newby and Stevens vs Sneddon, as this has already been done by others more qualified than me , namely Rose et al. 2014 . I also pointed out that the issue of under reporting of negative results in this field was discussed by Browman and Skiftesvik (2011) It is a sad fact that sometimes the most controversial papers get cited the most, and that sometimes the high citation rates are because of the controversy and are not related to the veracity of the science, especially when papers that present good science but negative results are by comparison "boring", and thus not cited as often. I also think older papers tend to have more citations simply over the course of time. So that has to be factored into the equation as well.Professor Pelagic (talk) 22:05, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Is this your missing edit? If so then no one deleted it. You put it in the wrong place further up the thread. --Epipelagic (talk) 22:38, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, OK, it is in the right place, its just the same issues popped up twice. A hazard of having several conversations going at once with two other people.Professor Pelagic (talk) 04:49, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

The talk pages are for discussing content of articles. Please indicate the specific changes you want to make.DrChrissy 22:12, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Just responding to requests to verify my statements. As for specific changes, I have looked again and think in the first section the last 3 paragraphs can be sorted out as follows:

Fish fulfill several criteria proposed by some scientists as indicating that non-human animals may experience pain. These criteria include a suitable nervous system and sensory receptors, opioid receptors and reduced responses to noxious stimuli when given analgesics and local anaesthetics, physiological changes to noxious stimuli, displaying protective motor reactions, exhibiting avoidance learning and making trade-offs between noxious stimulus avoidance and other motivational requirements. However, other scientists point out there are several neurobiological features in teleost fish and elasmobranchs that suggest they are unlikely to be capable of pain perception. Because of this, there is currently no scientific consensus on the topic, which remains controversial.

Pain in fish has societal implications including their suffering when exposed to pollutants, in commercial and sporting fisheries, aquaculture, in ornamental fish and for fish used in scientific research.Professor Pelagic (talk) 00:03, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

I do not see how this improves the article. We already indicate that some researchers believe that the absence of some neurobiological material means they believe that fish do not experience pain, but others argue against this. That is why there is a "Controversy" section.DrChrissy 13:49, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

My version improves the article as it economises the paragraphs, removes repetition and a misleading statement about scientists, and highlights both the controversy and why there is controversy in the appropriate paragraph. I don't see where the opening section mentions neurobiological material in the context of the controversy and nowhere does the current version mention the absence of scientific concensus on the topic. I have already pointed out that the controversy section, if it remains, is too far down the page as many readers will not get that far down. Commercial and sport fisheries are mentioned then angling is singled out a second time . Why the repetition ? I also have major concerns about the sentence including scientists in the bit about fears about angling. Sneddons data both for trout and Atlantic cod are equivocal about this point, - the control manipulations in her experiments are needles filled with saline - what is the difference between that and a hook ? Hooking is not injecting fish with acid or bee venom, its more like the control and the control fish in all her experiments are supposedly behaving normally even after being stuck with a needle and injected with saline. When Sneddon teamed with the Norwegians and stuck fish hooks into Atlantic cod , all they got was transient head shaking and "an almost complete absence of observable responses to punctate mechanical injury of the lip". Hardly convincing evidence that would have all scientists becoming concerned about angling. The way this section is currently written it gives the reader the view that scientists are with the animal protection advocates calling for bans on angling or use of lidocaine when removing hooks , which is simply false as the evidence does not support this being a problem. My version avoids all of these pitfalls, does not contain false or misleading statements and is altogether a more accurate and balanced way to end the introduction.Professor Pelagic (talk) 04:51, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

This is now much better, not completely as I'd like to see it, but an acceptable compromise. I still think the writing can be economised and the last sentence can be deleted if the following sentence is included at the end of the second last paragraph.

"However, other scientists point out there are several neurobiological features in teleost fish and elasmobranchs that suggest they are unlikely to be capable of pain perception in a manner similar to mammals or humans. Because of this, there is currently no scientific consensus on the topic, which remains controversial." I will take the liberty of putting that up there now so we can put a period on this and move onto the other sections.Professor Pelagic (talk) 20:39, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

"...there is currently no scientific consensus on the topic..." is your opinion of this. Do you have a verifiable source for this statement?DrChrissy 22:45, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Rose et al. (2014) and Key (2015) are enough to show there is no consensus amongst scientists on this topic at this time, and indeed it is actually quite obvious this is the case when you contrast those papers to those of Sneddon and, more recently, others like Brown. Also, this lack of consensus is a very important point that should be made right up front where I had it (before it was removed again). For these reasons, I insist the following paragraph is put in there right up front; "However, other scientists point out there are several neurobiological features in teleost fish and elasmobranchs that suggest they are unlikely to be capable of pain perception in a manner similar to mammals or humans. Because of this, there is currently no scientific consensus on the topic, which remains controversial." If you do not flag this right at the start, you are not providing the balance that people require of an online encyclopedic resource. Professor Pelagic (talk) 11:26, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Another statement of evidence of no concensus is the following from The American Fisheries Society in their guidelines for use of fish in research: http://fisheries.org/guide-for-the-use-of-fishes-in-research#4.3 , section 4.3, Nociception and Pain, end of first paragraph "Overall, the weight of evidence in the fish species studied indicates that the experience of pain in mammals is not experienced in fish". This contrasts with statements to the contrary which are often made by other groups, such that I think we can safely say there is currently no consensus on the topic. Hence I would like to reiterate that the first section should have this paragraph inserted

"However, other scientists point out there are several neurobiological features in teleost fish and elasmobranchs that suggest they are unlikely to be capable of pain perception in a manner similar to mammals or humans. Because of this, there is currently no scientific consensus on the topic, which remains controversial." Professor Pelagic (talk) 00:41, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Oh for goodness sake! Those guidelines were written by Rose himself! How can that ever be seen as a balanced piece of writing!DrChrissy 12:31, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Firstly, that document represents the position of the American Fisheries Society, a group of scientists and professionals around 9000 strong. So it is the viewpoint of a large group of professionals who study fish, not only of Rose. But if you really want only references that explicitly state what is regarded as common knowledge in the field, what is wrong with Wilkes (2015) on page 98 who states “Most are prepared to agree that dogs and dolphins, cats and cows, feel pain; yet there is NO CONSENSUS about FISH, reptiles, insects, amoebae or even plants”. Professor Pelagic (talk) 19:53, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Do you really, really want to include a sentence that says there is no consensus that plants can feel pain? I would also argue about whether this author really understands the issues. Why is there no mention of amphibians? What about the Cephalpods? Why are just "insects" mentioned rather than all the other invertebrates. Was this written by a non-biologist with questionable appreciation of the subject matter?DrChrissy 00:29, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Furthermore, you have been requesting above the insertion of "Because of this, there is currently no scientific consensus on the topic..." (my bold). You are moving the goalposts. Wilkes is talking about public opinion, not your scientific consensus.DrChrissy 00:58, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Really.... I simply provided another reference as more evidence that there is no concensus, after you did not like my previous reference because you do not like one of the several authors of the reference. It is certainly looking like only references that Dr Chrissy likes can be used on this page. It is not a good look and its not hard to see how these NPOV problems started. As for scientific consensus, I reiterate, either you are insinuating the 9000 people in the American Fisheries Society are not scientists (they will like that), or you are simply trying to ignore information that does not agree with your opinion (non-NOPV again). I reiterate, to retain balance representative of the science on the topic, the opening section should include this statement "Other scientists point out there are several neurobiological features in teleost fish and elasmobranchs that suggest they are unlikely to be capable of pain perception in a manner similar to mammals or humans. Because of this, there is currently no scientific consensus on the topic, which remains controversial." Professor Pelagic (talk) 04:15, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

And I reiterate, this needs a citation for the words "no scientific consensus" - otherwise it is simply your opinion and as I have already told you, your opinion does not matter here.DrChrissy 16:06, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Your opinion does not matter either, and it was your opinion that Wilkes was talking about public opinion and not scientific opinion, when it is abundantly clear that scientific opinion is divided as well as shown by the literature and statements by the American Fisheries Society. Anyways, if that is your only problem with the statement, there should be no problems then with the following "However, other scientists point out there are several neurobiological features in teleost fish and elasmobranchs that suggest they are unlikely to be capable of pain perception in a manner similar to mammals or humans. Because of this, there is currently no consensus on the topic, which remains controversial." Professor Pelagic (talk) 22:14, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Professor Pelagic, is this the issue you mainly find troubling? It is highly anthropomorphic, working backwards from the human experience of pain, and you warned yourself earlier that anthropomorphic approaches could be inappropriate. I don't see the issues discussed by Rose et al necessarily preclude fish from feeling pain, though, contrary perhaps to DrChrissy, I do think further research and clarification is needed and the matter has yet to be definitively settled. The section in the guideline issued by The American Fisheries Society, presumably written by Rose himself, is: "Overall, the weight of evidence in the fish species studied indicates that the experience of pain in mammals is not experienced in fish". But even if that is the case, it still has to be established whether or not fish have an experience of pain that differs from the experience of pain mammals have. --Epipelagic (talk) 02:47, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

The Wilkes' statement here is totally unacceptable for us to make a statement about scientific consensus - and this articles is based on science. First, the Wilkes' statement about "no consensus" is linked to the previous sentence which is discussing "our intuitions"; this is clearly not intended to mean "no scientific consensus". Second, the statement states "Most are prepared to agree..." without any mention of scientists whatsoever; Wilkes' is clearly referring to lay readers in general. Third, although I have limited access to the book on-line, I can not find a single reference to a science article. In short, the Wilkes' item is not a scientific piece of work and can in no way be be used to indicate or imply anything about scientific consensus.DrChrissy 15:20, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Epi, to make my position a little clearer. When I talk about "pain" in non-humans, I usually use this as short-hand to mean "an experience analogous to that of pain in humans". This is in the same way that I might talk about "vision" in animals with compound eyes. They are certainly capable of "vision", but this experience is almost certainly analogous to vision in humans, rather than being the same experience.DrChrissy 18:09, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

If people actually read the words used by Rose et al., they are very clear that they are debunking claims by Sneddon and others that fish are equivalent or very similar to higher vertebrates in response to nociceptive stimuli. Instead, they point out that whatever fish experience, the evidence suggests it is very different to the pain experienced by mammals and humans. All I am asking is for the first section to clearly reflect the current scientific debate on this point. For DrChrissy to suggest that there is scientific consensus that fish feel pain equivalent to mammals and humans is clearly wrong - thus there must not be scientific consensus and therefore this needs to be mentioned. Again, I am mystified why DrChrissy is so reluctant to provide readers with critical information which readers can use to make their own informed decisions on this issue. Professor Pelagic (talk) 00:50, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Here is another reference I found in my archives. "“In order to show that fish experiences pain, it is necessary to show that a fish has consciousness”, and “recent work regarding consciousness in fishes yields no consensus”. There are those words again, no consensus. Professor Pelagic (talk) 05:38, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

The article is 10 years old! We should be giving the reader a substantially more up-to-date perspective than a sentence someone wrote a decade ago about a subject area that has been highly active since then.DrChrissy 15:49, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Hows this then, hot off the press. "In the meantime, its obvious there is no scientific consensus that fish (or invertebrates) can “feel pain.” " . I reiterate, the opening statement should have the following paragraph inserted: "Other scientists point out there are several neurobiological features in teleost fish and elasmobranchs that suggest they are unlikely to be capable of pain perception in a manner similar to mammals or humans. Because of this, there is currently no scientific consensus on the topic, which remains controversial." Professor Pelagic (talk) 22:15, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

But this author is clearly in the industry - they list their affiliation as "DigsFish Services Pty Lt". There is undoubtedly a COI here making it an unreliable source.DrChrissy 22:51, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Why, PP, did you not also cite Callum's reply to your latest offering. Callum's position is that the issue is more political than scientific. It would be more balanced to leave the lead as it is, bearing in mind that the lead clearly states, "Pain in fish is a contentious issue". Indeed that is the very first sentence in the article. Then the caption of the lead image reinforces that position. What more can you want? This has the virtue of not attempting to adjudicate on whether the issues are primarily scientific or primarily political. Accordingly, I have removed your "disputed neutrality" tag on the grounds that it is inappropriate. As I said earlier, to properly resolve this issue we need to wait patiently until further scientific results come in. However, judging from the manner by which content builders like ourselves are treated by the administration on Misplaced Pages, we are assumed to be dimwitted, defective and wanting on many levels. You could perhaps achieve your goals here, whatever they may be, by ascending to an administrator position, a position which they will confer to you for the rest of your life. In return you have merely to support the administrative corps, wherever it chooses to go. I gather this elevation instantly confers the benefits of many extraordinary virtues and powers, including luminous and rapier-like intelligence and the satisfaction and security of knowing you will never be regarded as wrong in relation to content builders, no matter how unjustly you deal to them. --Epipelagic (talk) 07:32, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

If only I had read this 6 months ago! Thanks.DrChrissy 16:57, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Browns paper wasn't published when I looked. Looks like that whole journal is a moving feast. it seems the scientific debate is but one part of it - I agree that it ends up being a political issue rather than one based on science, a shame, but from reading Browns paper its also obvious the politics work both ways. This wikipedia page is much better balanced than it was when the NPOV issue was first raised, so I can live with lifting of the neutrality tag for now and hope it doesn't slump back into its previous condition in the future. Professor Pelagic (talk) 09:19, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Definition of pain

There is a subthread on the definition of pain well above which is getting somewhat lost. I think this is a pivot issue. Accordingly I have restarted the discussion here under its own header, and transferred the first two comments below as reiteration of what has been said so far:

They have also tried to centre the article around the IASP definition of pain. That is hardly a relevant or useful definition in the context of investigating pain in fish. For example, one of the three key points of the IASP definition is that "pain is always subjective". The IASP is an organisation dedicated to the medical relief of human pain. It is not an organisation dedicated to advancing knowledge about pain in animals, and I doubt it has anything useful to say about pain in fish... --Epipelagic (talk) 09:55, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I just realised I should reply to defend the IASP definition. Are you saying that humans aren't animals ? The key is, to experience pain there need to be more than nociception. Once nociceptive signals are made, there needs to be an emotional response generated in the brain that is recognised consciously as pain. This is why the IASP definition is a good one as it describes this very clearly, not only for humans but in other animals too. Some of the current wording of this page suggests there is a blurring of understanding of nociception vs pain - they are two very separate things and a clear working definition is required to show this. Professor Pelagic (talk) 03:00, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

You seem to be contradicting yourself. You point out reasonably that a "valid working definition of pain" is vital for efforts to explain its underlying mechanisms. But then you offer the key features of the definition of pain by the IASP. These are workable for humans. The first two features are: (i) an unpleasant sensory AND emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage; (ii) pain is always subjective. So your "valid working definition" involves unpleasant emotional experience that are "always subjective". That might be a valid working definition for humans, because humans can self-report on private subjective states. But if a fish is experiencing an unpleasant emotion, how would you know? You can not ask it. In what possible sense do you imagine that definition can be a valid working definition for nonhuman animals that cannot self report?

Elsewhere you claim that pain can not be investigated by using analogies with human pain. You said it was anthropomorphic, which somehow means it is not valid. Yet here you are yourself trying to set up a wholly anthropomorphic definition for fish. I think it is okay to say something like "Here is a definition of pain in humans... " and then try an look for analogies in animals. I doubt you can at this stage come up with something so sweeping as "Here is the working definition of pain which applies to all animals... " --Epipelagic (talk) 12:47, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I think the term we should be using here is "anthropocentric" rather than "anthropomorphic". And of course the the ISAP definition is anthropocentric - they are concerned about humans and not other animals. To argue that we should be using their definition and saying fish do not feel pain is like arguing we should be using a human definition of vision based on the cornea, lens, retina and the rods and cones, then argue that dragonflies can not see because they do not have these!DrChrissy 18:40, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

This starts to get to the nub of part of the scientific debate. The reason why the ISAP definition is relevant because pain is a word that describes a human emotion. That also means that the further away you get from humans, the less appropriate it is to use the word as you risk it becoming more and more loaded with anthropomorphic bias (human emotional baggage, if you will). Your example of vision in insects is not quite equivalent, as vision is a sensory function, not an emotion – it’s the equivalent of nociception, not the pain. While insects can on doubtedly see, who knows exactly what a dragonfly perceives – perhaps vision is not the right word - image processing and perception might be more correct. Sneddon, Elwood and co. have recently tried to grapple with this issue, (in response to the recent review papers outlining the scientific issues with their interpretations of their fish and crustacean “pain” findings in their previous pain papers), by publishing a paper entitled “Defining and assessing animal pain” in the journal Animal Behaviour . In the paper they declare “ Clearly animal pain behaviour differs from human pain behaviour, as does the underlying neuroanatomy”, and “although it cannot be proven that animals experience pain, it also cannot be proven that they do not”. This is good stuff but then they present criteria for fulfillment of “animal pain”, including such things as motivational tradeoffs that in many cases essentially lower the bar for the burden of proof of pain and extend the term for use in groups such as insects. I am not sure that this idea will fly (pardon the pun) in the scientific community, as the word “pain” is about emotion and the further away from humans you get, the less relevant or accurate the word becomes to the point that, in some taxa it surely must become redundant. Its certainly hard to see how insects might get emotional. Perhaps researchers in this field of study in lower animals and invertebrates need to develop new words to accommodate what they are seeing so as to avoid the problems with anthropomorphic use of the word pain (and all of the human emotional baggage that comes with it) within the wider community. Also notable is that Sneddon refers to the ISAP definition of pain in this paper too, and they state that it should be able to be applied to animals too. Professor Pelagic (talk) 00:39, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Now that everyone is aware of Sneddon et als 2014 paper, Sneddon LU, Elwood RW, Adamo SA, Leach MC (2014). Defining and assessing animal pain. Animal behaviour 97: 201-212, they might want to revise this whole section here and in the other linked pages (crustacean pain, invertebrate pain) to take at least some of its contents into account ???? It is also a far superior assessment of the situation than the tired and discredited argument by analogy. Professor Pelagic (talk) 00:47, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

References

1. Rose JD, Arlinghaus R, Cooke SJ, Diggles BK, Sawynok W, Stevens ED, Wynne CDL (2014). Can fish really feel pain ? Fish and Fisheries 15: 97-133.
2. Browman, H.I. and Skiftesvik, A.B. (2011) Welfare in aquatic organisms – is there some faith- based HARKing going on here? Diseases of Aquatic Organisms 94, 255–257
3. Eckroth JR, Aas-Hansen O, Sneddon LU, Bicha H, Døving KB (2014). Physiological and Behavioural Responses to Noxious stimuli in the Atlantic Cod (Gadus morhua). PLoS ONE 9(6): e100150. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0100150
4. Mettam, J.J., Oulton, L.J., McCrohan, C.R. and Sneddon, L.U. (2011) The efficacy of three types of analgesic drugs in reducing pain in the rainbow trout, Oncorhnchus mykiss. Applied Animal Behaviour Science 133, 265–274.
5. Wilkes KV (2015).Physicalism. Routledge Library editions: Philosophy of Minds. Volume 7.
6. Rose JD, Arlinghaus R, Cooke SJ, Diggles BK, Sawynok W, Stevens ED, Wynne CDL (2014). Can fish really feel pain ? Fish and Fisheries 15: 97-133
7. Wilkes KV (2015).Physicalism. Routledge Library editions: Philosophy of Minds. Volume 7, p 98.
8. Sømme LS (2005). Sentience and pain in invertebrates. Report to Norwegian Scientific Committee for Food Safety. http://www.vkm.no/dav/413af9502e.pdf p30
9. Diggles BK (2016. )Fish pain: Would it change current best practice in the real world? Animal Sentience http://animalstudiesrepository.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1068&context=animsent
10. Sneddon LU, Elwood RW, Adamo SA, Leach MC (2014). Defining and assessing animal pain. Animal behaviour 97: 201-212.

• Contrary to the impression you are giving, the 2014 paper by Sneddon et al is already referred to in the article. When you don't like Sneddons work, you find her papers fail to uphold "higher scientific standards" and "red flags go up when scientists start to review Sneddons work". When you do like Sneddons work, you find it is "far superior". Can you can provide reliable sources for these sweeping judgements of yours? If you can't, please stop trying to bludgeon us with them. Just omit them. Your insistence on using the subjective ISAP definition of human pain and your view that pain is centrally "about emotion" puts you squarely in what you call the "tired and discredited" anthropomorphic camp of those who must argue by analogy. That said, I think the 2014 Sneddon paper is useful and could be referenced more widely in the article. I would like to see the statement "although it cannot be proven that animals experience pain, it also cannot be proven that they do not" highlighted as a stand alone quote, since this is at the hub of philosophical and methodological issues with pain in animals. --Epipelagic (talk) 08:16, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Agree with the insertion of the quote. It is a shame they did not say "currently" - would we be OK inserting this as into the quote?DrChrissy 13:57, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

"When you don't like Sneddons work, you find her papers fail to uphold "higher scientific standards" and "red flags go up when scientists start to review Sneddons work". When you do like Sneddons work, you find it is "far superior"" I simply treat each paper on its merits. There are good and questionable aspects of Sneddon et als. 2014 paper, but it is certainly a better set of criteria than argument by analogy. Can you please provide any proof whatsoever to your thesis that pain is not an emotion generated by the brain ? I would also like to insist that the other Sneddon quote is included too "Clearly animal pain behaviour differs from human pain behaviour, as does the underlying neuroanatomy". This is because it is a key quote as, for the first time, she has backed down, shifted the goal posts a little and makes a differentiation between "different types of pain". Professor Pelagic (talk) 05:29, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

@Professor Pelagic: You ask whether I have "any proof whatsoever to thesis that pain is not an emotion generated by the brain". Where have I suggested anything remotely like that? If you can't be bothered to read what I say with some attention, then what point is there in me paying attention to what you have to say? To repeat my actual input, you cannot use subjective emotion as part of an operational definition for pain in animals, such as fish, because unlike humans animals cannot self report on the private subjective states they experience. --Epipelagic (talk) 04:44, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

You wrote "(my) view that pain is centrally "about emotion" puts you squarely in what you call the "tired and discredited" anthropomorphic camp of those who must argue by analogy". Given that in humans pain and other emotions are generated solely in the brain (usually in response to external stimuli), and having you accusing me of anthropomorphism and arguing by analogy in the same sentence, you appeared to be insinuating that pain in other non-human animals is, unlike humans, more than just an emotion that is generated by the brain, so I simply asked where else might that pain be generated ? Sounds like you agree that pain is generated in the brain. Professor Pelagic (talk) 01:03, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

You appear to be treating this page as a forum for anti-Sneddon rhetoric. A sentence should not be included simply because it is the first time a scientist has "backed down". Look carefully at the sentence. It is discussing "animal pain behaviour" and says this differs in non-humans. This is hardly surprising - we tend to vocalise when we are in pain, fish do not have vocal chords.DrChrissy 11:38, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

A very quaint anthropomorphism Dr Chrissy. Fish also have very low % of C type nociceptors (none detected in elasmobranchs), are poikilothermic, have relatively simple brains and have many, many other anatomical differences between them and mammals with vocal chords. The fact that the behavioural criteria that are chosen to "prove pain" in fish are unvalidated and could instead be proving something else, such as irritation, must not be overlooked. For example,the rubbing behaviour cited by Sneddon as behavioural evidence of "pain" is the same rubbing behaviour that is seen when fish are infected with protozoans such as white spot disease https://en.wikipedia.org/Ichthyophthirius_multifiliis. But in the 100's of years of history of science about this disease, not one fish health scientist has suggested that the white spot infection might cause pain. I think an ability to critically assess the strengths and weaknesses of Sneddons and her colleagues papers is a fundamental prerequisite for anyone who has to work or communicate in this field. The 2014 review paper was the first time that Sneddon and co indicated they were not talking about pain criteria for fish that was equivalent to mammalian pain, or in some way analogous to humans. This is a big step forwards, perhaps tempered by the results of her work with the Norwegians on cod where the fish showed no sign of her definitions of "pain" or stress when they were embedded with fish hooks. Pity others such as Brown who you quote as saying "fish experience pain in a manner similar to the rest of the vertebrates" still continue to try to paint this "human-like pain and suffering" picture for fish. It really detracts from progress in the field. Professor Pelagic (talk) 20:24, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

And so what content would you like to change?DrChrissy 21:06, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

As Sneddon et al. 2014 also state that the ISAP definition of pain should be applicable to animals (p 202, definition of animal pain), it should be included. I suggest the following words are used in the article:

"A valid working definition of pain is vital for efforts to explain its underlying mechanisms. To this end, the key features of the definition of pain by the International Association for the Study of Pain (IASP) are that pain is (i) an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage; (ii) pain is always subjective; and (iii) pain is sometimes reported in the absence of tissue damage and the definition of pain should avoid tying pain to an external eliciting stimulus. Wall (1999) emphasized this as, ‘…activity induced in the nociceptor and nociceptive pathways by a noxious stimulus is not pain, which is always a psychological state.’ However, if you can find any references that support a view that the IASP definition should NOT be used for animals such as fish, please provide it to balance the article. Professor Pelagic (talk) 20:53, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

I do not agree, at all, with your inclusion of the above passage, which I see you have now added to the article. You have no consensus for this addition, and I invite you to revert until consensus has been reached. You did not signal your intention to add the passage to the article... you merely suggested the wording. It would be okay to add this definition providing you qualify it by pointing out it is a definition used in medical contexts and applied to humans. There is no way this is an appropriate definition for animals in general, and I don't understand how you can think that. At the very least, you need to explain how unpleasant subjective emotional experiences can be assessed in animals that cannot report on their subjective states. This is a loaded definition which sets a stage for people who want to proclaim that subjective emotional experiences cannot be scientifically demonstrated in animals, and therefore animals cannot be scientifically demonstrated to experience pain. In any case, you cannot claim on your own authority that this is a suitable definition for animals. That would be original research. The citation you give presumably refers to this rather obscure 27 year old article. A mere 8 academic publications cite this article, mainly articles by Rose and his associates. It is not my job to find "references that support a view that the IASP definition should NOT be used for animals such as fish". I'm not the one wanting it in the article. It is your job to find references (not just Rose and his associates) that do provide a rationale why the IASP definition should be used for animals such as fish. --Epipelagic (talk) 04:43, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

I know you do not like including the IASP definition, but the scientists who work in this field of research in fish use it, so if you say that it is invalid, actually you are fabricating original research on your behalf. I assume this is because its inconvenient for you in relation to your activity on this and other pages you are active editing in relating to pain in non-humans. Since I am familiar with the fish literature, I am working on getting this right first, before looking at your other pages (which I'm not looking forward to). In fact, there may even be consensus on use of the IASP definition for fish, as both Rose et al. and Sneddon et al. use the IASP definition. The quote from Sneddon et al. (2014) is as follows "The International Association for the Study of Pain defined human pain as ‘An unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage’(IASP, 1979, p. 249). However, the IASP (1979, p. 249) also refers to adults unable to communicate, neonates and infants and adds that ‘The inability to communicate verbally does not negate the possibility that an individual is experiencing pain’ and so we believe THIS CAN BE APPLIED TO ANIMALS." So if I'm not allowed to quote Rose et al., then yes, Sneddon et al. also think it can be applied to animals, so you indeed have to provide proof that the IASP definition is NOT applicable to animals, otherwise you cannot defend your decision to exclude it from the page. So find your references. Professor Pelagic (talk) 23:36, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Once again you are just making up straw men and knocking them over. There seems little point continuing this discussion if you do not bother reading what is actually said. If you do bother to read what was said above, you will read things like:

I think it is okay to say something like "Here is a definition of pain in humans... " and then try an look for analogies in animals. I doubt you can at this stage come up with something so sweeping as "Here is the working definition of pain which applies to all animals... '

It would be okay to add this definition providing you qualify it by pointing out it is a definition used in medical contexts and applied to humans... At the very least, you need to explain how unpleasant subjective emotional experiences can be assessed in animals that cannot report on their subjective states.

Sneddon et al had the sense to qualify the IASP definition as applying to "human pain". They also made some effort to acknowledge the difficulty with animals not being able to self-report on their subjective experience (even though they countered it with only a declaration of faith: "we believe this can be applied to animals"). You made no such qualifications in the passage you added to the article. Instead of moving forward, you have resumed patronising in the same odious style you resorted to earlier. That is not the way to proceed. You can reinstate your edit if you appropriately qualify and cite it. --Epipelagic (talk) 04:35, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Ok, then I propose the following "A valid working definition of pain is vital for efforts to explain its underlying mechanisms. To this end, the key features of the definition of pain in humans as used by the International Association for the Study of Pain (IASP) are that pain is (i) an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage; (ii) pain is always subjective; and (iii) pain is sometimes reported in the absence of tissue damage and the definition of pain should avoid tying pain to an external eliciting stimulus. Wall (1999) emphasized this as, ‘…activity induced in the nociceptor and nociceptive pathways by a noxious stimulus is not pain, which is always a psychological state'. Several researchers in the field including Sneddon et al. (2014) and Rose et al.(2014) have applied the IASP definition in the context of fish." Professor Pelagic (talk) 00:36, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Look, this stuff is difficult. As far as I can determine there are no "valid working definitions of pain" in animals. You came in on such a confident note that I hoped you had something useful to contribute. But you haven't delivered anything of substance. That's okay, because it is not an easy issue. Your last edit above presumes to instruct DrChrissy and me on what are significant sources, and is presumptuous. We can always learn something about what is a significant source, but you should not assume we are clueless. Please drop this arrogance. I'm not going to speculate on your own background, apart from commenting that it clearly falls short of the way you present yourself. Just stick to what can be accepted as reliable sources. That is all we can do here on Misplaced Pages. May I suggest that you drop your POV about whether fish do or don't feel pain, and adopt instead a neutral curiosity about the matter until such time as the literature is indeed (if ever) able to resolve the issue. --Epipelagic (talk) 10:45, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

There are working definitions of pain that are not perfect, but are accepted by the scientific community, such as the IASP definition, for which there is evidence of application in the context of fish (see above), and there there are the behavioural criteria that are recently proposed by Sneddon et al (2014) that are largely unvalidated and incapable of discriminating between pain and other non-pain responses like irritation and stress in fishes (Rose et al. 2014). I ask why the editors of this page choose the latter definitions over the former instead of including both as a neutral position. Until such time as this and the other issues are sorted, the NPOV tag should remain to warn readers of the content. Professor Pelagic (talk) 20:00, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

This is a very confident posting for someone who does not appear to have edited wikipedia before. Have you edited before under a different user name or IP, please?DrChrissy 20:24, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Looking at the trace links on their IP contribution page I think we can be confident in turn, and discount this precise restatement of "Professor" Pelagic's position. --Epipelagic (talk) 21:59, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that. As I suspected. This is becoming very wearing - is it actionable behaviour?DrChrissy 22:25, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

My bad, I did not notice the browser had logged me out. I have repaired above to clarify who made the entry. I have also found some of my previous IP edits under 117.53.133.241 and 220.236.150.72.Professor Pelagic (talk) 01:00, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Research Findings

I have been trying to work through the many problems with this page one section at a time, now onto "Research Findings". The start of the section on Nervous System contains a quote from Sneddons 2015 paper which is not a neutral representation of the science on the topic. To regain a neutral position on this section on Nervous System, either the quote from Sneddon 2015 should be removed, or it should be followed by "However, Rose et al. (2014) pointed out the existence of fundamental neurophysiological differences between fish and mammals when they stated "C fiber nociceptors, the most prevalent type in mammals and responsible for excruciating pain in humans, are rare in teleosts and absent in elasmobranchs studied to date." Professor Pelagic (talk) 22:34, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Ok - The quote of Sneddon et al. has been deleted.DrChrissy 00:15, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

The next quote from this section that should be removed is "It has been concluded that the brains of rainbow trout fire neurons in the same way human brains do when experiencing pain." This statement using the word "same" suggests equivalency in the subjective pain experience between the brains of trout and humans, when there is no scientific evidence to support this provided in the references cited. Professor Pelagic (talk) 00:56, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

and another one that needs to be altered is "Since this initial work, Lynne Sneddon and her co-workers have characterised pain responses in rainbow trout, common carp and zebrafish." As Rose et al. 2014 pointed out whether they actually measured pain responses in these studies is highly debatable, the word "pain" should be replaced with "responses to noxious stimuli" Professor Pelagic (talk) 01:00, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

I suspect the paper cited should be this one, which states that: "rainbow trout, common carp, and zebrafish... that experienced a noxious stimulation exhibited rapid changes in physiology and behavior that persisted for up to 6 hours... and thus were not simple reflexes". --Epipelagic (talk) 03:17, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

The problems with the "not a simple reflex" definition are discussed in Rose et al. 2014. Correct wording to use in this example is "Since this initial work, Lynne Sneddon and her co-workers have characterised responses to noxious stimuli in rainbow trout, common carp and zebrafish."Professor Pelagic (talk) 02:01, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Some critical information that was deleted from this section on nerve fibres some time ago was information on the neurological significance of the very low % of C fibres found in teleost fish presented by Rose et al. 2014, i.e. that such low % of C type fibres would not be sufficent to initiate a pain response in humans. The information was "in a bold move" placed right at the bottom of the page into a new section entitled "controversy". I contend that this information is not controversial, but is instead basic anatomical information on nerves that is critical to understanding the neurobiology of fishes, and hence this information should be reinstated into the section on the nervous system. Professor Pelagic (talk) 02:01, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

If we are looking for suggestions on how to proceed on this point, I suggest either adding the missing information back into the research findings section, or directly referring /linking readers of the research findings section to the "controversy" section and/or moving the controversy section further up the page to immediately below the research findings section. I would do so myself except in the past edits I make to the main page have been quickly removed, essentially wasting my time, but I am willing to try again if no one else steps up. Professor Pelagic (talk) 02:44, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I think at this point we are waiting for more research findings. I disagree with both you and with DrChrissy in the sense that I think the issue of whether fish do or do not feel pain is, as yet, not really clear. As more results come in, it seems the balance is starting to support the position that they can be said to feel pain. But there is still some way to go. What specifically is the "missing information" you want added? --Epipelagic (talk) 06:01, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

The information I was referring to is the information on C type fibres and its context. Cutaneous nerves in carp and rainbow trout have only 4-5% C-type fibres, but as noted by Rose et al. (2014), normal human peripheral nerves have about 83% C type fibres, but humans with congenital insensitivity to pain only have 24–28% C type nociceptive afferents in their peripheral nerves (Rosemberg et al. 1994). This indicates that teleost fish have 4-5 times lower numbers of trauma receptors than humans that cannot feel pain (due to low numbers of trauma receptors), while sharks and rays have fewer again (0%). Why is this important ? This information is critical anatomical information regarding phylogenetic differences in nociceptive pathways and suggests that whatever fish "feel" following tissue trauma, it is highly unlikely to be anything like humans feel. Indeed, this would explain the results of Eckroth et al. 2014 who saw no effect (beside head shaking) in cod which were stuck with fishing hooks. This information is central to the topic and should not be sidelined and it should be placed in context. It should not be presented that these basic anatomical differences are controversial, as they are not, they are just facts. I see there are some new papers on "fish pain" just published here: http://animalstudiesrepository.org/animsent/ , but just more talk, no research findings. Professor Pelagic (talk) 20:42, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Rather ironically, your last comment is exactly the way I think of Rose and those associated with his point of view - talk and no research. I have no problem at all with the article pointing out that there are differences in the neurobiology between mammals and fish, and also between different clades of fish. However, it is the misleading implication that this means fish are unable to experience pain that I disagree with. Insects do not have a mammalian eye. Does this mean they can not see? DrChrissy 20:58, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

No, it does not mean they cannot see, it just means they are unlikely to process visual stimuli like mammals do and therefore their visual experience is likely to be very different to humans. This was pointed out for fish by Derbyshire (2016) in one of those recent animal studies papers, "noxious stimulation in fish, therefore, should not be called pain because it is clearly far from the typical pain experience that we know". Professor Pelagic (talk) 22:08, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Just as an aside, PP, what name would you give to the sensation a fish experiences when a sharp object pierces their lip?DrChrissy 17:00, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

The data collected by Norwegian researchers with the fish hooks embedded in Atlantic cod said there was head shaking but nothing else that fulfilled their "pain" criteria. So I would guess irritation would be a good, value neutral word to use, as this is the same sort of behaviour you see if your aquarium fish tries to shake off or rub off a parasite like "Ich". Professor Pelagic (talk) 08:53, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Brian Key's latest paper

Brian Key authored a controversial paper, Key, Brian (2016) Why fish do not feel pain Animal Sentience 2016.3 which caused a lot of different commentaries , anyone experienced in this field? This recent debate should be included.

Calum Brown comments "More than 30 commenters responded to the article and this clearly shows that this topic is still controversial. Of these, three (Rose; Hart; Diggles) support Key’s position. The vast majority of commentaries, however, do not, and argue that fish most likely feel pain. Most agree that Key’s argument is flawed at best and his evidence of how pain works in humans is selective, simplistic, misleading and outdated (Damasio & Damasio; Merker; Panksepp; Shriver)." Brown, Culum (2016) Fish pain: An inconvenient truth Animal Sentience 2016.058. HealthyGirl (talk) 01:54, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

1. Eckroth JR, Aas-Hansen O, Sneddon LU, Bicha H, Døving KB (2014). Physiological and Behavioural Responses to Noxious stimuli in the Atlantic Cod (Gadus morhua). PLoS ONE 9(6): e100150. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0100150
2. Brown, C. (2015). "Fish intelligence, sentience and ethics". Animal Cognition 18 (1): 1–17.
3. Wall, P.D. (1999) Pain: neurophysiological mechanisms. In: Encyclopedia of Neuroscience (eds G. Adelman and B. Smith). Elsevier, Amsterdam, pp. 1565–1567.
4. Sneddon LU, Elwood RW, Adamo SA, Leach MC (2014). Defining and assessing animal pain. Animal behaviour 97: 201-212.
5. Derbyshire, S.W.G. (2016). Fish lack the brains and psychology for pain. Animal Sentience http://animalstudiesrepository.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1047&context=animsent

• All unassessed articles
• C-Class Fishes articles
• Mid-importance Fishes articles
• WikiProject Fishes articles
• C-Class Fishing articles
• Mid-importance Fishing articles
• WikiProject Fisheries and Fishing articles
• C-Class neuroscience articles
• Mid-importance neuroscience articles
• Misplaced Pages Did you know articles
• Former good article nominees