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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Rafael Cruz article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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Article narrative jumps around chronologically

It would be better written if one section was devoted to chronology - in order - then other sections of apparent interest can follow (religion, politics, etc). Right now it's a mess!66.64.72.10 (talk) 15:26, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree. its early life then personal life - early life extends to recent comments to son about regretsRedtobelieve (talk) 20:09, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

National Enquirer allegations

The following comment was offered to support putting negative allegations against Cruz in the article and these negative allegations are being made by the National Enquirer. I have repeated them here for all of the editors of this page to read:

He is being linked to LHO / Camp street. HE was residing in NOLA at the time, no other credible name has been offered as person seen with LHO on still and motion picture and until such time as he gets a judgement against NAT ENQ my link should remain on the above page

http://www.nationalenquirer.com/celebrity/ted-cruz-scandal-father-jfk-assassination/

I am not vandalizing this page, just updating with new credible info. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edclass66 (talk • contribs) 05:02, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

In the edit summary: (adding association with Lee Harvey Oswald as printed by National Enquirer. This credible allegation should remain on Wiki page until Cruz attains judgement against said publisher)

Let me point out that the comments above do not follow Misplaced Pages rules for a biography of a living person. Allegations like the ones made by the Enquirer must be supported by a reliable source and the Enquirer is not a reliable source. Also, the comments above are clearly wrong about removing challenged negative information from an article. The editors claims, incorrectly, that the Enquirer allegations MUST stay in the article until Pastor Cruz goes into a court and gets a judgement against the Enquirer and then, and only then, can the allegations be removed from Misplaced Pages. Well, that is not even close to what the rules are. Jimbo has made it clear that we err on the side of caution with living people. We don't put in allegations hapharzardly and then wait for court decisions. That is simply not true. I would encourage the editor review: Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons and Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources.--ML (talk) 16:07, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

The National Enquirer occasionally reports things that turn out to be true, but that does not mean we treat them as a reliable source. Jonathunder (talk) 16:26, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

ML Jonathunder The Washington Post occasionally reports things that turn out to be true as well, but I could point to numerous stories in the "real" press that were / are complete fabrications - Janet Cooke from the WAPO won a Pulitzer for her fabricated story. National Enquirer was nominated for a Pulitzer on the John Edwards story that no one wanted to touch. Therefore, again, I respectfully submit that the NE link to LHO on Cruz page remain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edclass66 (talk • contribs) 20:58, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

That's not going to happen unless you find a better source. The examples you gave are noteworthy because they are contrary to usual practice for both publications. That doesn't change which one is generally considered a good source. Jonathunder (talk) 21:09, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Jonathunder The article is notable for appearing in print across nation, the NE has done some diligence on this, can you please suggest or find another acceptable source? Edclass66 —Preceding undated comment added 21:15, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Allowing insinuations that a living person has something to do with the JFK assassination is the very reason Misplaced Pages has a BLP policy. We are not going to go down that road again without some really good sources. See WP:RS. Jonathunder (talk) 21:39, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Edclass66 see WP:BLPREMOVE. If the information is true then more reliable sources will quickly cover the story. At that time we can discuss how to add it to the article. Until then I strongly urge that you do not try to re-add it again. Edit warring negative material in a biography can result in an administrative block. Alsee (talk) 16:37, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Alsee Hey, The McClatchy Company The Sacramento Bee now covering this story. Credible enough? There exists undisputed photographs of Cruz protesting in favor of Fidel Castro in Austin (can you please find that photo and add to Cruz page? Not sure how to do it but I can give you link here - http://cdn.havanatimes.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/PadreTed-display-300x215.jpg), Cruz at some point subsequently moves to NOLA and gets hired by Bush front company Zapata Oil. Lets make some news here guys! You cant keep denying that this DESERVES to be on this page, and is being picked up as a story by CREDIBLE news sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edclass66 (talk • contribs) 00:31, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Can anybody find the Cruz pro-Castro interview in The Daily Texan circa 1959? I am showing link above to the undisputed photo of Cruz @ UT protesting in favor of Castro. Why is this not on his page? As far as credibility goes its coming straight from the horse's mouth. This puts Cruz firmly in the same milieu as LHO / Camp street / Zapata Oil. Instead of threatening to block me about adding what are soon to be totally credible pieces of information, work with me? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edclass66 (talk • contribs) 01:31, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Request for page protection

The Sacramento Bee story says a tabloid is making claims, along with counter claims that This is another garbage story in a tabloid full of garbage, and that The explosive suggestion that Cruz’s father would have had any affiliation with Oswald is not corroborated in any other way. This is grossly insufficient sourcing to directly report the claims, and falls well short of covering it as a noteworthy controversy that a Tabloid made such claims. This should not be included in any form until we have more good sources, and if such sources show up we need to discuss how it would be covered before any edit is made to the article. Alsee (talk) 11:16, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

This page looks like a Cruz press kit. It needs to have other information. Is Misplaced Pages just a regurgitation of a person's press kit? Can we quote Cruz from his interview in The Daily Texan and include the photo of him protesting in favor of the Castro regime at UT? Has anyone pulled a FOIA on Cruz? At such time that the FOIA becomes available can we post items for that? BTW McClatchy is the parent company of what was formerly know as Knight-Ridder, again I believe that there are plenty of credible sources for inclusion of some of this info but lets start at the beginning ie inclusion of photos from The Daily Texan as well as excerpts from interview with Cruzedclass66 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edclass66 (talk • contribs) 13:38, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Adding additional information, based on a reliable sources, is fine, even if it is negative about the article subject. If there is something particularly contentious that you want to add, it should be based on particularly reliable sources.

If you aren't sure what counts as reliable, see WP:Identifying reliable sources.

I'm not sure what you are getting at with talk of FOIA, but it is not the place of Misplaced Pages to make freedom of information requests.

Yaris678 (talk) 18:06, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Edclass66, you wrote above: "Lets make some news here guys!" You seem to have a very skewed and inaccurate impression of what Misplaced Pages is and is not. Misplaced Pages is not news. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:43, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Alsee says "if such sources show up we need to discuss how it would be covered" so what say you Winkelvi, is this a notable news item worthy of being on Cruz press release of a Wiki Bio / WBLP? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edclass66 (talk • contribs) 22:51, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

btw https://en.wikipedia.org/Portal:Current_events Misplaced Pages does cover news, this is news, this is an appropriate forum to discuss these allegations edclass66 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edclass66 (talk • contribs) 22:55, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3556745/Ted-Cruz-furiously-denies-latest-claim-tabloid-claims-identified-dad-photo-Lee-Harvey-Oswald.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edclass66 (talk • contribs) 20:54, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Just coming into this late, the allegation is widespread enough that I think it needs to be addressed, even if just by a WP:RS debunking it. Since this discussion ended, the following May 3 article from the Washington Post came out; it is a reliable source which examines the evidence (thoroughly, as far as I can tell) and concludes was not Cruz. Adpete (talk) 04:09, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Nah, the original tabloid nonsense wasn't worthy of note in a biography, and minor coverage saying it was nonsense isn't worthy of note in a biography. Including it would only serve to promote the original nonsense. We don't report "Adam and Eve were not Space Astronauts" after the National Enquirer runs a silly story saying they were. Alsee (talk) 08:13, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Rafael Cruz Supported Castro - self declared support can be added to WP articleRedtobelieve (talk) 17:06, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Meantime, in the early years of his career at UT, he remained a supporter of the Cuban Revolution. He tells me that he gave dozens of lectures about the Revolution to various clubs in Austin.

As soon as Cruz returned to Austin, he contacted the various groups before which he had lectured to ask them for a second audience. Now he talked about the evils of Communism, about the dangers of Castro’s regime, about the betrayal Castro had inflicted upon the Cuban people.

The question is who where those various groups, and is it possible that he could have been lead to both support Castro and oppose Castro by different groups and at different time for different purposes. Dis he actively support or oppose Castro while in New Orleans?

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/282228/exile-and-revolution-mario-loyola

Nothing needs to be added to the article. It is already in the article. You should actually read the article before you make suggestions. The questions you have about the groups is just speculation and not supported by reliable sources.--ML (talk) 00:49, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Back Seat of Car - after getting Visa and Passport stamp to leave

Rafael Cruz’s Cuban saga ends with him hidden in the back seat of his father’s car in late 1957 as they drove along the coast to Havana, where he boarded a ferry and sailed to Miami, before continuing on to Austin. Back seat of Car - NYT — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redtobelieve (talk • contribs) 16:49, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

When you edited the article you stated that "he was in the bottom of a car", which is not what the NY Times says. Also, this information is undue weight. There is no need to report that he was in the back seat. That does not add anything to the article and it needlessly overly detailed.ML (talk) 16:52, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

should have said ""he was in the bottom backseat of a car" - if you are hidden in the backseat I know of no place but the bottom to hide - it is factual and material b/c he got a admitted to UNT, a Visa, and a passport stamp via a bribe, yet he went to the boat hidden in the backseat of a car - meaning that he was still in some sort of danger- your point is taken that I did not quote verbatim the NYT but this portion is material IMO Redtobelieve (talk) 17:21, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

He wasn't in the bottom of a car. That's a fact. Also, it is irrelevant and unnecessary.--ML (talk) 17:29, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

backseat or bottom backseat - I did not mean underneath - anyway the fact that he states he was transported "hidden" in a car by he father, is much more important than that he was transported in a car. It is either in a car, or bike or walking - its that he was hidden that makes it noteworthy. - we can settle on "hidden in the backseat" just like in the NYT article

also the fact that he went to an Elementary School by the same name as the town he grew up in - although the section is called early life the elementary school is not noteworthy- where did you find the school anyway? thx Redtobelieve (talk) 18:05, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

It was in the New York Times article. Also, why do you claim that "he went to a elementary school by the same name as the town he grew up"? If you claim this then you need to provide a reliable source. If there is no reliable source then it did not happen. You are not a reliable source.--ML (talk) 22:33, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

OK we agree about the need to remove the Elementary school. done And the verbiage about the back seat was an interview in the NYT article and it is a primary part of the narrative, that he was in some sort of danger when he left. added back doneRedtobelieve (talk) 00:29, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

OK ML you put back in the interesting school name, Arturo Echemendia located in the unexpectedly located in his hometown Matanzas - and remove part of story "saga ends with him hidden in the back seat of his father’s car" and leave only "father drove him to a ferry terminal" - so you win we can leave the repetition of his hometown and school name, and just remove the fact that he his father drives a car - unless you can see reason Redtobelieve (talk) 16:22, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

I haven't won anything. It is not a competition. I removed an edit where an editor, not you, put in that Cruz's daughter died of overdose. I removed it because it is not relevant to Cruz's story. It is not about winning. I removed the information about Cruz laying down in the back seat of the car because it seems to be too much information, but if you believe we absolutely have to have it then we should put it back in. However, I put back in all of the citations that you removed. Now, those citations are helpful to the readers and they are not hurting the article, only helping the article. I do not see any reason to remove them. You have not provided a reason to remove them. No reason. If you have a good reason to remove helpful citations then I would like to hear it but so far you haven't provided one. As for the Elementary school, that information was provided by the New York Times and once again you and me are not reliable sources, but NY Times is.--ML (talk) 19:31, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

ML Ok, appreciate the olive branch - I had just received Edit ability but lost it and now have to go to source, glad you put the sources back - its hard to edit at source so that reversal is justified and appreciated - look you talk about too much information, and although the name of the elementary school is in the NYT it does not add to the story. The fact that in another NYT article he tells the story that he was in effect, smuggled out of Cube, or transported, not just in a car, as you would want to leave in, but hidden in the back seat, the part you see fit to remove b/c that portion is too much information. So that being said my point is the elementary school is too much information but fact that he was smuggled or hidden in the back of a car is part of the saga. I would like to see you add that. Your stated earlier that the article is fine as is but in fact it needed and still needs updates. Hopefully you can see my point nowRedtobelieve (talk) 15:02, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

You said, "It does not add to the story". Well, Misplaced Pages is not a story. It is a point of view (POV) to be created and promoted. We got where the facts and the reliable sources take us. I don't know why you want to remove the name of the school in Cuba but you haven't given a good reason. We can add the fact that he was in the back seat of a car while he exited Cuba.--ML (talk) 15:12, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

I've been watching this back and forth for a few days. Redtobelieve, one thing you seem to have trouble grasping is that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a magazine article or an online book. We don't tell stories, we provide facts in the midst of prose supported by reliable sources. If something is properly sourced and aids the reader to better understanding the article subject, then it should be included. Not for "story telling" value but for lasting encyclopedic value. I see you've already received an editing block, and it seems you are still having trouble understanding why we do things here the way we do. Perhaps you should take time to read Contributing to Misplaced Pages before proceeding further and becoming more frustrated. After you do that, then return to editing. You'll likely have a happier editing experience after doing so. If you still find yourself coming up against brick walls -- whether they be in the form of having your edits reverted or communicating with other editors on talk pages -- I recommend you take your questions and concerns to The Teahouse. There, you will find experienced editors ready to help allay your concerns and frustrations and answer your questions kindly and productively. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 16:50, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Winkelvi Let me point out that ML wrote "That does not add anything to the article and it needlessly overly detailed.ML (talk) 16:52, 28 April 2016 (UTC)" and you can see it just above. So if you replace article with story then we are saying the same thing. Just like I left our "backseat" when I should have wrote "bottom backseat of car". Just keep the important elementary school and leave out the saga of a smuggled escape from the story, I mean article. It just does not add anything and is overly detail. The core of the story/article is the elementary school name and not the escape from Cuba.

14 with Castro is false - 17 out of prison is false - Christian Post vs NYT

Within two or three years of the 1952 coup that brought Batista, a former president, back to power, Mr. Cruz says, he was participating in street protests 2 or 3 years - means that he is 15 or 16, perhaps not 14 in protests and 17 joined Castro group

Mr. Cruz was one of them, he said in the interview. He had enrolled in September 1956 at the university in Santiago. There, he said, “I became involved with the Castro group.” meaning 17

Interesting Fact: Cruz's father, Rafael Cruz, fought in the Cuban Revolution alongside Fidel Castro when he was only 14 years old. When he was 17, he was captured, imprisoned and tortured. After his father got him out of prison. FALSE - he we in fact 18 when he got out of prison the month before he fled to Miami - first in bottom of a Car NYT

has both 14 and 17 wrong

Redtobelieve (talk) 17:06, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

The article has been edited to say "teenager". The reliable sources conflict. The word "teenager" gets the point across.--ML (talk) 17:30, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

is not a reliable source as it has a simple error in math to calculate age - NYT is better - you removed the line that "he became involved with the Castro group"

Then there is the statement that as a teenager he did not know Castro was a Communist - of course he didn't - nobody did - not the US either - he did not declare himself a communist till Dec 1061 when Cruz was 22. He was a revolutionary and had not yet been mugged by reality. This should be considered for removal as nobody is calling Cruz a communist. Redtobelieve (talk) 20:27, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

No, it shouldn't be. All of the information that needs to be presented is presented.--ML (talk) 22:30, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Review of Balance - all against Castro all the time, for the Revolution unless you mention Castro

didn't know Castro was a Communist -- he became a harsh critic of Castro -- lectures opposing Castro -- regretful for his early support of Castro

VS

joined the Cuban revolution -- support of the Revolution -- opposing Castro and the Revolution -- against the new regime in the counter-revolution

Request that we allow just one sentence in the beginning that he supported Castro when he started the Univ Santiago at 17

and that we remove the one sentence at the end - "regretful for his early support ... expressed to his son" This would still have a tilt overall against Castro in early life section Redtobelieve (talk) 18:32, 28 April 2016 (UTC)Redtobelieve (talk) 18:31, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Why? There is no reason for this.--ML (talk) 22:31, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Look ML it is a very small request and I have made so good improvements to this article and corrected some obvious errors or conflict. Didn't know Castro was a communist until perhaps summer of '59 when he returned to Cuba, but still two year before Castro declared he was a communist - the US Gov't still hoped he, Castro was not going Communist - and the line is talking about Ted Cruz anyway - simple that's why

2nd removing "regretting support for Castro" is redundant as he was reportedly now giving speeches against Castro.

Simply put, he was for the Revolution and its leader Castro - stated as articles state it, straightforward - then the was against Revolution and Castro as he became disillusioned.

Now I am starting to wonder, although maybe this is not the place, if Rafel was actually a supporter of Batista. That would explain the 3 days in jail in June '59, then with some outside help, a quick accepted application to UT and US Student Visa a month later and a quick stamp on his passport from Batista to exit the country beginning the journey hidden in a car. It is also amazing that he knew almost no English, yet finished with two hard degrees in 4 years, while taking a short trip back to Cuba while having meager job and assets. Yes he was for Castro, then against Castro, but maybe he and his family were always against him - and he must have had some unspoken resources to draw upon to get out of the country and in a university so quickly. Very interesting, don't you agree?Redtobelieve (talk) 00:25, 29 Apri

can we get a tighter timeline on Cruz move to New Orleans? it says he moved to NOLA in his 20's which covers 10 year time frame. i believe he moved to NOLA in 1962 is there any hard info or link to support his move to NOLA in '62? edclass66

also - the photo which shows an as of yet unidentified person per the Warren Report standing with Oswald handing out flyers, Cruz fits numerous points of the profile: Cuban who has ties to Cuban expat political goings on in the southwest, has revolutionary cred and maybe some clippings of the Daily Texan he shows to OSwald to cement a working relationship or point of agreement, lives in NOLA at the time, looks like person in photo ... etc. the reason why he has never been ID'd by the Warren Report etc is that he is working for US intelligence and hanging out with LHO prior to the assassination, which would obviously cause a huge PR problem up and down the line ML , Redtobelieve , Jonathunder — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edclass66 (talk • contribs) 21:39, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

@Edclass66: If you want more information in the article about New Orleans then go out and find reliable sources to support any additions. It is as simple as that. Engaging in speculation on this talk page will not get anything in the article. If there is no reliable source then it did not happen.--ML (talk) 15:08, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Then it did not happen? Lol... 1984. 74.199.72.214 (talk) 20:09, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

His conection with Oswald has made headlines and should be cited. 81.39.105.40 (talk) 21:32, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

We don't cite things here because they made headlines. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 23:30, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

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