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| == Wrong way round? == | |||
| On the ], the Prime Minister ] inaccurately is above the President ]. I thought you put the head of state first, then the head of government. Can someone please sort it out? I can't because of this semi-protection (I'm a new Wikipedian). Thanks | |||
| ] 20:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :It was originally the way you say, then changed, citing the fact that the PM holds the power. However, that doesn't seem to be a relevant argument, as the head of state is the first mentioned in all the articles I looked at, such as ], ], and ], all of them countries where actual power is wielded by the PM, not the president/monarch. Thus, I'm changing it back. ] 20:23, 13 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::See my comment above (section 23.1 in the table of contents), from a couple of days ago, after this change was made. I agree, the president should be listed above the PM. It is a matter of "protocol", not actual power. ] 20:39, 13 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Head of State should go first. This shouldn't even be an issue. ] 22:16, 13 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == NPOV Tag for Human Rights == | |||
| :::''(Everybody check ]!)'' | |||
| Editors on this page have consistently deleted a vague listing noting a few major organizations that criticize human rights in Israel. As it stands now, there is no indication there is any criticism whatsoever. This is not a representation of the reality of the situation, and represents a severe bias. Therefore the article does not have neutrality. I suggest we work on a way to address this fairly together, so that a handful will stop hurting the article by deleting anything they see as criticism. ] 04:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :There is a nice link to the main article on ] just after the heading, and there is plenty of fodder for those who wish to find fault with the state of Israel in that article :) So, what exactly is your gripe, if I may ask? Thanks. -- ] 04:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Please stop the personal attacks. "for those who wish to find fault with the State of Israel" -- we've been over this. Any "fault" is from the attributed Human Rights Groups, not the personal view of the editor. You need to work on not taking documentation of human rights issues as an individual assault from the editors working on such articles in good faith. | |||
| Humus Sapien's edit note: replaced Sarastro's cherrypicking of irrelevant groups with a variety of relevant ones, mention freedom of press within Israel) | |||
| the "irrelevant groups" he deleted were: | |||
| *Human Rights Watch | |||
| *Amnesty International | |||
| *The United Nations General Assembly | |||
| *The International Court of Justice | |||
| *Association for Human Rights in Israel | |||
| To say these groups are irrelevant is so funny it is hard to believe he actually expects anyone to take him credibly. | |||
| Each group was followed with a specific reference to insure verifiability. | |||
| The "Freedom of the Press" is already in the main article. This out of context and isolated mention is inviting a lengthy examination of exceptions, which are already well documented. I don't see why it is helpful to go down this road. Your very smug response seems to indicate that you accept a bias issue in the section but are comfortable with it because you think the HR article contains "plenty of fodder." That viewpoint is not productive. | |||
| ] 05:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| : Here is my edit: . Note how I added a variety of relevant links of the groups highly critical of Israeli govt. policies, rather than Sarastro's cherrypicked selection of reports. Certain orgs have controversial relations with Israel (covered elsewhere: follow links), and issues of the conflict are also covered elsewhere. To say that freedom of speech does not belong to human rights section is ridiculous. Your constant efforts to besmirch Israel are duly noted. ←] <sup>]</sup> 06:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Please see ] & ] ] 14:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Humus please refrain from personal attacks. I do not see any besmirching by any party other than yourself. Can we please focus on the improvement of this article and not attacking Sarastro777.--] 16:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Said the thrice-blocked vandal. ] 03:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::The section on Human Rights in Israel is a joke, and censors any criticicism of the state of Israel by human rights groups. It even contradicts the main article on the subject, which includes statements giving a fair assessment.<small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 10:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small> | |||
| What follows is the paragraph I added in the Human Rights section to correct the obvious bias present there: | |||
| :On the other hand, ] reported that in 2005 ''"The Israeli army killed more than 700 Palestinians, including some 150 children. Most were killed unlawfully — in reckless shooting, shelling and air strikes in civilian residential areas; in extrajudicial executions; and as a result of excessive use of force. '''' The Israeli army destroyed several hundred Palestinian homes, large areas of agricultural land, and infrastructure networks. Israel continued to expand illegal settlements and to build a fence/wall through the West Bank, confining Palestinians in isolated enclaves cut off from their land and essential services in nearby towns and villages. Israeli settlers increased their attacks against Palestinians and their property and against international human rights workers. Certain abuses committed by the Israeli army constituted crimes against humanity and war crimes'' ''In August the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination called for the revocation of the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law, passed the previous year and extended for six months in July. The law institutionalized racial discrimination. It barred Israeli Arab citizens married to Palestinians from the Occupied Territories from living with their spouses in Israel, and forced families to either live apart or leave the country altogether."''.<ref>{{cite web | |||
| | url = http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61690.htm | |||
| | title = Israel and the Occupied Territories | |||
| | accessdate = August 24, 2006 | |||
| | year = 2006 | |||
| | work = AI Report 2005 | |||
| | publisher = Released by Amnesty International | |||
| }} | |||
| </ref> | |||
| I see no reason why ] has deleted it. He justified this deletion telling that the article is not about "the conflict". Neither the AI report is (indeed, half of the cite is about a '''law''' enforced by the State of Israel, it's about domestic policy). Moreover, I find it quite absurd to consider the Human Rights' record of Israel irrespective of its role in the Occupied Territories and irrespective of the "little detail" that this country is unfortunately involved in a conflict with its Arab neighbours since its very foundation! I reversed the deletion. If I did wrong, please explain me why before redeleting it. --] 13:19, 25 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| : Certain organizations have controversial relations with Israel (covered elsewhere: follow links), and issues of the conflict are also covered elsewhere. In particular AI is not a ] for such claims. ←] <sup>]</sup> 19:35, 25 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::The fact that "somebody" (ie: you and probably the government of Israel) consider Amnesty International to be unreliable (without giving any explanation of the reason why) doesn't mean that such a famous and widely known organization shouldn't be cited in Misplaced Pages. I think that other organizations (ie: the ones that you and the government of Israel like to quote) are much more unreliable (because they are strongly biased in favour of the USA and their allies, and I have an unverified theory on the reason why, too), and yet I didn't delete their ''astonishing'' statements from this article. | |||
| ::Moreover, as you can see on the same Misplaced Pages article you linked, AI is not being accused by anybody of falsification, it's just being accused of attacking democratic countries ''more than the others''. Since I didn't quote a comparison between Israel and other countries (if we just want to understand whether Israel violates human rights, what Egypt does has no importance), these allegations simply don't fit in the debate. | |||
| ::You didn't give a good justification for your aggressive deletion, so my edit will be there again, and I really urge you to avoid deleting it again (that's what most people call an "edit war" and it's not allowed on Misplaced Pages). Let the readers decide if they feel AI deserves their confidence, and let the readers decide if they want to find by themselves some more information on this issue. Don't just ''prevent'' them from getting information because you believe you know what's best for them to read or not to read. Thank you very much and forgive my bad English. --] 08:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::: I do not represent the government of Israel. Unfortunately, AI's is one of groups (another is HRW) whose record towards Israel is highly controversial. Again, do not turn this article into one about the conflict. "Let the readers decide" is a really bad argument not worthy a response. ←] <sup>]</sup> 11:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::You are clearly waging an edit war. You just rewrote exactly what I already replied to, ignoring completely my lenghty explanation about why you should NOT delete those sentences. The fact that you and somebody else (who?) feel that AI is a "controversial organization" does not mean that they falsify their reports. If you think that, please explain why and AFTER THAT maybe delete the paragraph. I will not put the paragraph back because I am not a vandal. First you need to be blocked because you wage edit wars. AFTER THAT I will put the paragraph there. --] 12:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::First, the deletion by Humus Sapiens, so far, can not really be described as vandalsim. Please assume that he is acting in good faith. The problem is, however, that whatever the intentions, his edits are detracting from the completeness of the article. With reputable onganizations such as AI issuing reports on Israel like those described in the deleted section, not including their findings in the article is adopting a very specific POV. | |||
| :::::That said, the section in question (as it stood when last included in the article) read like anti-Israel propaganda. It seems that information for this section was used very selectively. This material must be included so as not to show favoritism, but a substantial rewrite should be done by somebody that has a good deal of knowledge on the issue (not Humus Sapiens because of a clear bias). ] 14:19, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::This sounds like a reasonable comment and I welcome it and its author. I didn't tell that ] is vandalizing the article, I told that '''I''' don't want to vandalize it. I told that this user is waging an edit war since he deleted 3 times, with insufficient explanation, what he didn't like in the article, even if it's undeniably true ''at least that AI told that'' (indeed, he never questioned the truth of Amnesty International's assertions; in any case, I didn't tell that AI is right, I just stated that AI has stated something). I didn't let myself sucked into this edit war and I asked for a comment from outside, and everybody can find it below. One last thing - there can be two opposite explanations why the comment from Amnesty International can sound like anti-Israel propaganda: | |||
| ::::::# Because Amnesty International is a bunch of Anti-Semites. I think that Anti-Semitism exists and I hate it with my deepest self. I'm currently trying to add ] to the Anti-Semitic People list on Misplaced Pages and I got involved in a sort-of-a-debate with some right-wing guys who argue that he didn't persecute Jews, which is a blatant lie. I'm very sensitive on this issue but I must tell that I never heard such an incredible story as Amnesty International being an Anti-Jew organization. | |||
| ::::::# Because Israel really violates human rights, and Amnesty International tend to criticize sharply whoever does that. | |||
| ::::::Why should the easiest and less "conspiracy theory"-like explanation be ruled out? --] 15:19, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Sorry about that, my vandalism comment wasn't meant for you. I thought I remembered accusations of him vandalizing this section higher up in the writing (turns out I was thinking of a different article, but same person). | |||
| :::::::Considering the sheer size and diversity of AI, there is no way to reasonably state that the organization is Anti-Semitic. Humus Sapiens is probably only referring to the allegations that they work more in democratic states (Israel included), as accuracy of their reports is never an issue. I have no doubt that any of the statements in the deleted paragraph are true, but my concern is still that the person who quoted from the report may have wanted to paint the worst picture possible. Other than that, I think that some of the ideas below are pretty good for a re-write. The only thing I disagree with is including the various "pro-Israel sources" that are critical of the human rights groups. The issue is well enough documented to stick to the facts and leave the criticisms section for the full article, ]. I hope this helps! :) ] 16:11, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I'm here in response to MauroVan's . I recognize that you all know the subject matter better than I do, but can offer some suggestions. | |||
| # In general, I think the goal of this section should be to offer a high-level summary of the information in the more specific ] article. I think in general, fewer quotes and a shorter, broad summary, would be good. | |||
| # With regard to the UN and NGO criticism, the more specific article seems to say (1) some UN groups and NGOs are highly criticical of human rights in Israel but (2) various pro-Israel sources have accused those groups of bias. Is it possible to say something like that? | |||
| # A lot of the UN and NGO criticism (although certainly not all) seems to focus around the Occupied Territories as opposed to Israel proper. Would it be helpful to have separate "Human rights in Israel" and "Human rights in the Occupied Territories" sections? | |||
| Thanks, and good luck, ] 14:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Thank you ], your response can be helpful if ] accepts your advice. I am keen to follow most of your proposals, ie | |||
| :# Let's shorten the whole thing cutting away all cites in inverted commas. | |||
| :# Let's write in that section something like ''"Some UN groups and NGOs are highly criticical of human rights in Israel but various pro-Israel sources have accused those groups of bias"''. | |||
| :# Let's write in that section something like ''"A lot of the UN and NGO criticism (although certainly not all) seems to focus around the Occupied Territories as opposed to Israel proper"''. | |||
| :I am '''not''' trying to depict Israel as a ruthless dictatorship with no freedom of speech etc. I know that this is not a truthful picture of the country. But you can't compare it to, say, Switzerland, nor can you forget the little detail of the Occupied Territories, the Wall (is it in the Territories or inside Israel? It is considered a human rights violation by many significant sources) etc. | |||
| :Now let's see what ] thinks about it. --] 15:19, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: I would suggest something along the lines of your text, maybe: | |||
| ::: Several UN groups and ] are highly critical Israel's human rights records, primarily with regard to Israel's laws regarding citizenship{{fact}} and conduct in the ].{{fact}} In response, various pro-Israel sources have accused these critics of bias.{{fact}} | |||
| :: Assuming that the other sources are reduced to a similar level of generality, the section would probably be a fairly good summary of the current ] article, and you could add 5 or 6 footnotes for people who want to see which groups have said what. Thanks, ] 16:19, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think this is another good proposal, but I want to wait first for a reply by ] because I don't want him to delete everything again. --] 16:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm not seeing what's wrong with the current version. Referring to "some pro-Israel groups" is ]. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 21:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: I also find the current version adequate. Let's remember that we are talking about a summary of a subarticle. If you followed the links that's already there, you'd see that they are quite critical of Israel's policies. ←] <sup>]</sup> 21:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| The current version (14:45, 29 Aug, last edit by Jebus1) seems like a reasonable summary to me. ] 22:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I agree with Jayig that saying "some pro-Israel" groups is poisioning the well. I strongly object to the phrase. If we are going to use that phrase, why not call the UN and the NGOs "anti-Israel"? ] 22:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I hate to be the only person to be critical of the current vesion, but I have one improvement suggestion. The human rights section in this article does a great job with accurately portraying Israel proper, but there is not an adequate summary of the "human rights in the occupied territories" section of the main article ]. For people that have not read this talk page and just refer to the summary of human rights on the ] page, this does not give an accurate picture.] 02:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I am '''very''' critical of the current version (so, ], don't feel lonely), because it depicts Israel as a heaven-on-earth which is clearly a misrepresentation of the actual situation there. I wouldn't describe my own country in such terms, even if I live in a peaceful area of the world; it looks like somebody is consciously trying to ''conceal'' information not only on Israel but also on widespread opinions on Israel (information on opinions is just as important as information on facts). Anyway, I think I could accept something like ''"Some UN groups and NGOs are highly criticical of human rights in Israel but other sources have accused those groups of bias"'', it's indeed not necessary to tell that whoever denies any human rights violation by Israel is pro-Israel (the reader can figure it out by himself if he lives on this planet). I think I'm being very reasonable with the opposite side, therefore I'd like to ask: can we work out an improved version of the section now? New proposal: | |||
| ::# Let's shorten the whole thing cutting away all cites in inverted commas: let's just turn them into links and write down a '''very brief''' summary of their general content (''"These guys tell Israel has freedom of speech (link), these other guys tell they discriminate against Arabs (link)..."''). | |||
| ::# Let's write in that section something like ''"Some UN groups and NGOs are highly criticical of human rights in Israel but other sources have accused those groups of bias"'' - thus we don't ''poison the well''. | |||
| ::# Let's write in that section something like ''"A lot of the UN and NGO criticism (although certainly not all) seems to focus around the Occupied Territories as opposed to Israel proper"''. | |||
| ::Does everybody agree? --] 08:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Firstly - you keep using "tell" instead of "say". You '''tell''' someone about something ("I told ''him'' about the situation"), but you '''say''' things to no one in particular ("AI said the human rights condition is..."). | |||
| :::The human rights section should make it clear that when it comes to human rights in Israel proper, the situation is comparable to other western countries, and is basically good, save for some discrimination is resource allocation against the arab minority, and some criminal issues, like human trafficking (which is also common in other countries, like the US). | |||
| :::The condition of human rights in the occupied territories is much worse, but it's a completely different situation, and should be discussed seperately (the same as you wouldn't discuss human rights in Iraq in the same sentence as the rights in the US itself, although they're all under american control). | |||
| :::If you discuss them in the same paragraph, your'e just giving the reader a flase picture. | |||
| :::BTW, I wonder (really - does anyone know?) - If an american woman marries an Iranian, or North Korean man, would he be allowed to live in the US? How about a Soviet man, during the cold war? ] 09:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Firstly - thank you for the advice on "tell" vs. "say", at last I'm understanding how it works! :-) English is not my mother tongue, as most of you could have noticed, therefore I apologize for my frequent mistakes. | |||
| ::::I understand your point, but let me put some counter-arguments here: | |||
| ::::# Of course, while talking about human rights in the USA, it wouldn't be acceptable - in my opinion - to avoid mentioning Guantanamo or the occupation of Iraq. Of course, it should also be explained that the way Iraqis or alleged "terrorists" are treated by US forces in Fallujah or in Guantanamo is not the same way as American citizens are treated in Boston or Fargo. By the way, no country can preserve a democratic heaven in the motherland while violating peoples' rights in its "colonies". | |||
| ::::# The Occupied Territories for Israel is not exactly the same thing as Iraq for the USA. Iraq is '''in a different continent''' than Washington DC, but Israel has a fuzzy border with the Palestinian Territories; there are areas under Palestinian political control ''and'' Israeli military control, disputed areas, Palestinian areas where Israeli tanks enter whenever they want to etc. We can't forget the Israeli settlements in mostly-Arab areas (where many violations occur): is that Israel or not? Then we have the ]: it's considered a human rights violation by different sources and it's not clear if it's ''inside'' or ''outside'' Israel... | |||
| ::::About the marriage question: being allowed to live with your spouse is clearly a human right. In most democratic countries (I don't know in the States, but that's how it works in Europe), the spouse of a citizen gets either citizenship too or at least the right to live in the country. Israel allows in a big amount of people from all continents and yet it forbids Arab Palestinians to enter the country as full citizens. Your example, separation of families thanks to the Iron Curtain or the Berlin Wall during the Cold War, just supports my position, because I doubt anybody has every argued on a Misplaced Pages talk page that such a division improved human rights in Europe! This is not telling that it wasn't necessary, this is just telling that it was a human rights violation; maybe sometimes it is necessary to violate human rights, this is another issue and I'm not telling my opinion on that here. --] 12:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I think most of us have a mother tongue different than english. We just have to get by... | |||
| :::::Well, when I say "Israel proper", I mean areas where the Israeli law is applied - i.e. - within the green line+Jerusalem and the Golan. Of ocurse the distinction is a bit fuzzier, what with the settlements and all, but still - Israeli citizens and residents live in a very different enviroment than the Palestinians, and the distinction between their conditions is important. An Israeli citizen enjoy an very good level of human rights, and that should be made clear. | |||
| :::::The Seperation Barrier could, in part, be considered a violation, where it strays from the green line, into palestinian lands. It's important to note, in that regard, that Palestinians often turn to the Israeli court system for help in this matter, and the Supreme Court has often forced the government to change the path of the fence, to avoid harm to the palestinians' interests. | |||
| :::::The marriage thing - I'm not saying it is or isn't a violation, but rather that I doubt Israel is unique in not allowing its enemies to come and live within it, and the Palestinians are, currently and unfortunately, Israel's enemies (their government is led by Hamas, an organization that has often called for the destruction of Israel). Israel does allow arabs from Egypt, or Jordan, to come and live with their Israeli spouses in Israel - it's not an Arab thing - it's because Israel is at war with the Palestinians. ] 13:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::OK, let's try and work on the article now. --] 11:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: MV, I found your version worse and full of editorializing. Already almost every line in the section mentions words like "criticism" or "discrimination", but some editors just don't know when to stop. ←] <sup>]</sup> 22:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Your behaviour is absolutely unacceptable and you are clearly a ''mala fide'' vandal. You didn't make the smallest effort to respect the debate here. You're just always reverting to your "perfect" version every time somebody dares change it a little bit. I don't know which planet you live on, but here on planet Earth everybody knows that Israel is heavily criticised by many; you can agree or not, but it wouldn't be possible to write an article about this subject simply ignoring the opinion of billions of people. Similarly, since I live on planet Earth I also know that many defend Israel whole-heartedly, sometimes for noble but ill-targeted reasons (and I hope this is your case), sometimes with a more earthly motivation; that's why I would never try and hide the other side of the tale, at least here on Misplaced Pages (nobody's compelled to share the NPOV vision, I have a strong POV myself but that's how this site works). My version was '''very''' balanced, most cites were in favour of Israel, and '''everything''' was put in a doubtful light. Moreover, there's a talk going on here, you keep on ignoring it and this is '''not''' acceptable. The situation is going to escalate here until you accept that this is a wiki (therefore, people change what other people have written) and not your personal blog. --] 08:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::: The two versions are not that much different. The one you dislike uses chronological order and does not have your editorializing. It includes a lot of criticism and even scathing HRW report, but does not have the AI report (with wrong link you copy-pasted from another bad version). I (and many other editors, see above) wrote that this section is a wrong place to cover controversies such as the unreformed UN/AI/HRW. Try to stay cool and take a look at ] before throwing accusations around. Thank you. ←] <sup>]</sup> 10:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::: Based on comparing your revisions to all of the others I have seen, I have to say that I am given the impression that your goal is to cover up the majority of data regarding human rights in Israel and its territories. You have removed valid information, and aren't being reasonable about changing other people's edits. That said, we should keep the ratings you present on level of human rights (1, 5, 6, etc) if it is cited properly in the article. Just don't remove information that is unfavorable to Israel because you don't like it or don't believe it. | |||
| :::::::::: The last revision of this article that is by Davidoff (edit summary: this is not a government site) includes a great amount of info on both pros and cons of human rights. The revision by MauroVan (edit summary: Israel separation barrier --> Israeli separation barrier) was the most well organized. What do people think of combining the Human Rights section of these two versions? That is, some more of the facts from the first one and an organization pattern like the second one. ] 11:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::I agree with ]'s proposal. | |||
| :::::::::::I agree with ] on two points. First, he's not exactly a vandal if one reads the definition of vandalism, he's just being unreasonably stubborn and he keeps on waging an edit war and escaping from sorting out the problems in the talk page. Second, the URL of the AI cite got lost in the war, the correct URL is . This cite '''cannot''' be taken out of the article just because a few editors don't like this organization (along with the United Nations and other sources, elsewhere defined ''"irrelevant"'' by Humus sapiens). | |||
| :::::::::::There's a POV tag again on this section, I'm asking for arbitration from without. --] 11:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::I would like to comment that the "Human Rights" section should be a summary of the main article, and not contain info not present there. It should give the reader a concise explanation of the situation, and not delve into details. The cluster bomb reference, for that matter, is out of place, as it's about a particular incident, and not a general issue.] 11:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::: Agree with Okedem. MauroVan, everyone is entitled to their POV but I find your insistence on your version as unreasonable as your behavior here and I am not impressed by your namecalling. Including what AI calls "reports" will require us to talk about this org's bias in this conflict: which in my and other's opinion (see above) strays far away from the focus of this article. ←] <sup>]</sup> 00:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::How can you say that criticisms on human rights do not belong in a section entitled "Human Rights?" Can anybody say, "whitewash?" When you have an article about a nation as a whole, to be complete, everything about that nation has to be included even if it is unfavorable. Oh, and exactly how is that article supposed to prove that AI is biased against Israel? Relaying information about problems in Israel does not make somebody anti-Israel. AI has launched the same kind of campain to stop the US Government's acceptance of torture, and that does not make them anti-US. ] 00:44, 2 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Yeah right, let's turn this into a ] for your righteous outrage. ←] <sup>]</sup> 01:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :You know, when people start making unfounded accusations like that, I find that they have nothing to support their position so personal attacks are what they resort to. Did you even read the "soapbox" page you directed me to? Here is a quote directly from it: | |||
| ::"Misplaced Pages may contain content that some readers consider objectionable." ] 01:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===Request for Comment=== | |||
| I am responding as an outsider to the controversy, as requested. This seems to me to be a simple case. In the vast majority of nations, Israel is regarded as highly controversial because of the persistant accusations that they violate human rights. The argument that all this criticism stems from anti-Semitism is not credible. The groups listed, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, etc., are controversial, but anyone who follows the links will find the criticism of those groups. Therefore, the views of those groups should be included (and linked.) --] 21:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| : Your POV. ←] <sup>]</sup> 00:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Actually everything that ManEatingDonut states is not POV except the last sentence. It ''your'' POV that these facts should not be included in this article. I am afraid that wikipedia policy and guidelines are against you on this one. You are risking disciplinary action for your activity here. ] 02:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::: "Israel is regarded as highly controversial", oh please. ←] <sup>]</sup> 03:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That statement refers to the numerous reports from various organizations and governments, so it is more than just his POV. In this case, he is perfectly justified when he says "is regarded as highly controversial" because there are groups that call Israel a human rights violater, and there are people that oppose this assesment. Therefore, it is a ''controversial'' issue. ] 03:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I think that anybody denying that ''"Israel is highly controversial"'' should not be writing on a page about Israel because he obviously ignores some very basic facts about how this country is considered in most of the planet. Saying that somebody is controversial doesn't mean to state that he is wrong, it just means that somebody likes him and somebody else doesn't. I'm a fervent supporter of ] and yet I would never deny that he's highly controversial, since many Venezuelans (although a minority) and many important governments (like the one led by a George W. Bush) accuse him of being a dangerous Communist dictator etc. ] believes that Israel is not controversial and that the policies of its leadership are widely accepted and approved; his opinion, but this is a good example of "original research", something nearly nobody agrees with and absolutely not something that should appear on Misplaced Pages. 2 outsiders already gave their opinion and both agreed that Amnesty International should be added in the section, so let's proceed along the lines of those advices and please Humus sapiens don't revert it again because I really wouldn't like to demand some action to be taken against you. | |||
| :::::PS: Even if I changed the version to the more neutral one, I left the Neutrality tag there because we still don't seem to be agreeing on the neutrality of the section. | |||
| :::::PPS: The cites need to be reformatted, everybody so active in editing this section please find a moment to do that, too. --] 08:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Of course, the edit didn't last more than a few minutes. ] couldn't resist reverting everything without writing a single line on the Talk page. The only thing we can do is asking for arbitration. --] 09:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: (recovering from edit conflict) Without knowing what you're up to, I made an edit where I tried to find a compromise and incorporate some of your content to show an example of goodwill. Editorializing does not belong to WP. FYI, I ignored your inisinuations and threats for now. ←] <sup>]</sup> 10:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Wow, nothing short of arbitration huh? You've been here about 3 hours and you are acting as if you have tried every single possible option for dispute resolution, that in of itself is quite presumptuous. However, what really pushes it over the edge is the fact that you have arrived at this article and have attempted to practically rewrite it in its entirety from a single pov and included line after line of editoral-esque passages, and now you take on an incredulous tone because other editors here haven't kept it in its entirety. Furthermore, the person that you have targeted in almost every single post you have made to this page has himself agreed to keep some of your additions to the article, now please be understanding of the fact that this site must at least maintain the shell of neutrality so we can't take the explicit pov that you have in your article rewrite.- ] | ] 13:06, 4 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::# I have started my attempts to make this section a little less biased on August 25th, it's not 3 hours ago. | |||
| ::::::::# I didn't know that it works like in a barracks or in a college here... Do I get the right to tell my opinion and to edit an article only after a certain period? do I have to pass the freshman's quest first? what do I have to do, drink 3 liters of beer in a single night, sing naked on a cupboard? Please explain. | |||
| ::::::::# I did my best to solve this dispute but the other side didn't even try. Check the history of the edits and you will see that I'm telling the truth. I asked for mediation twice and I followed the advice given. | |||
| ::::::::# My version was not biased. I'm asking myself if you ever read it. | |||
| ::::::::# The problem is not that ''"other editors here haven't kept '''' in its entirety"'', the problem is that they (eg, you) have '''deleted it in its entirety'''. --] 13:33, 4 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::It doesn't seem to me as though you've exhausted all of the options suggested here - ]. | |||
| ::::::::::I'm not aware of any mediators here - who are they? What did they say? | |||
| ::::::::::Your version was confusing, because it gave a false impression, as if Israeli citizens have serious human rights problems, and they don't. The only major issue is possible discrimination against the arab population, which is quite minor, and the government is working to stop it. Almost all of the criticism is about the territories, and that should be made clear. ] 16:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| === Request for Arbitration === | |||
| :::''Everybody check ]!'' | |||
| Hm. 10 minutes after I made a request for arbitration, ] decided for the first time to include Amnesty International's criticism in his edit. This is a big step forward, because until now this user and his co-thinkers always did all they could to prevent any cite from Amnesty International and other blacklisted sources to appear on the page. | |||
| Unfortunately, the result isn't yet acceptable, in my opinion. Many ''de facto'' pro-Israel sources are quoted in length, while the only criticism is just given a link, followed by a sentence accusing the criticism to be biased. My proposal was to respect the advice we received from without, ie: | |||
| # Keep it short. | |||
| # Don't give direct cites in inverted commas, just tell the reader to check the main article or to follow the links. | |||
| # Explain why it is a controversial issue and just introduce the different issues at debate. | |||
| If ] wants to keep all ''his'' cites (I mean: those cites he likes so much) in inverted commas, we could simply add the cite from Amnesty International too. That was precisely my original edit, but nobody seemed to like it... --] 12:25, 4 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Forcing civilians to leave their homes/country == | |||
| Is considered terrorism. I added an NPOV-tag until this issue is resolved. --] 20:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{wiktionary|terrorism}} | |||
| '''terrorism''' | |||
| # The deliberate commission of an act of ] to create an emotional response from the victim in the furtherance of a ] or social agenda. | |||
| # ] against civilians to achieve military or ] objectives. | |||
| # A psychological ] of ] for gaining political or religious ends by deliberately creating a climate of fear among the popuation of a state. | |||
| '''ANY QUESTIONS?''' | |||
| --] 21:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Not sure if someone is trying to argue the IDF are terrorists for civilian deaths in Lebanon or if it is Hezbollah for the rockets. In either case, the definitions above hinge on the internal motive of the perpetrator. That is almost always hard to 'verify' and makes the label "terrorist" problematic and frequently based on the POV of the person using the word. ] 21:47, 14 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I agree with you that the motive is important. There is no need to read their mind to verify it, just listen to what they say to learn there intent (the quote in the article). BTW the citation in the article is broken I think, here 2 with the same quote that works, I'll add them to the article later (or if someone want to add them feel free) --] 22:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| So... I'm not sure I understand what's wrong with a factually accurate and less loaded term like "forcing civilians to leave" or "making civilians leave"? Could TheYmode or Daniel575 explain? Thanks. --] 21:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :That makes it sound like there was no crime. It is a completely warped version of what happened. I do not know how else to explain this to anyone who does not understand. --] 22:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::The term Terrorism IS factually and accurate in this case, its as simple as that. And calling it something else is POV. --] 22:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Correct. --] 22:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::For better or worse, we are all obligated to justify our edits, even if they make common sense to you. And I appreciate your efforts to do so (sincerely). | |||
| ::::I disagree that describing the situation as Hezbollah as trying to "force" Israelis to leave is "completely warped". Given that we provide a direct quote, why can't the reader be trusted to make up his or her own mind about the criminal nature of Hezbollah's intentions? --] 22:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::So I guess we should remove the entire characterization "He further outlined his organization's strategy of terrorizing Israeli civilians into leaving their country", especially since the reference attached to it is a dead link. We don't really need a characterization one way or another; "We are going to make Israel not safe for Israelis" is sufficiently vile (or, if you prefer, inspiring) that anyone can figure it out on their own. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 23:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I've come up with a description which is accurate, but which doesn't use the contentious word "terrorising". ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 16:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Is somebody here actually trying to say that Israel is a terrorist state? No way this should be allowed. Ackoz 21:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *Ah, no, I don't think anyone's saying that right here. Actually, it was a question of how to characterize a specific statement by a Hezbollah leader. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 00:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Haim Ramon Quote == | |||
| This should be in the portion as much as the quote from the Hossein Safiadeen. Both are notable; unless of course you think it's NPOV to put in the quote that he said about justifying the killing of women and children and calling them terrorist as much as the Arab stating "They will not make Israel safe for Israelis."] 13:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Edits by someone who states "Just because you are a Jewish" and will never, ever stay on this article. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 17:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: So do you have a personal problem or can you respond to the question? ] 18:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I've responded. Now, why don't you go or , or go rant about and how the media is unfair to "white people", or go on about , or rant about how the "Jews of the world" are shoving ? ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 18:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::For someone with a German name translating roughly as "the people's ghost" I am not surprised. I already noticed his weird username immediately when he had just registered. --] 18:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Actually, "volksgeist" was some mystical notion about "the people's spirit", something the Nazis thought the "Aryan race" had an abundance of. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 18:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::So, Jayjg, is your problem that the quote is accurate or that you simply have a personal problem with me? ] 18:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Our problem is with someone who has on multiple occasions expressed clear antisemitic thought. --] 18:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Does that not mean Mr Ramon did not state the quote at an Israel Security Cabinet meeting as Israel was bombing civilian targets in Lebanon? ] 19:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Is there a policy that supports that, or is this just your POV? You can't just decide to disregard and attack a contributor because you have some personal animus against them. There are plenty of Editors on here who express clearly biased thoughts in other realms. I don't see any outcry against them, nor should there be as everyone's input counts. You can disagree with someone politically and still ]. I don't see that happening... very bad example from an Admin. ] 18:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Sarastro, I would like you to check out and the two things linked to there (July 1947 and November 1947). Also read and also read . That is my position. It is quite hilarious of you to accuse me of having a pro-Israel POV. If you check my talk page, you will see that Zionists threaten me and call me a poison, a dog, and other things. Your accusations of me being pro-Israel are plain hilarious. --] 18:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::On a different board I referred to people "here" (Misplaced Pages) having a Pro-Israel POV. You took this as a personal reference, which it was not. Your assumption that Daniel575 = "here" is equally hillarious :-) ] 22:58, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Sarastro777, I'm not sure what "political disgreement" you are referring to; are you referring to Volksgeist's beliefs that apartheid was wonderful, Hitler was great, the British and French started World War II, the Jews are forcing race-mixing on Europeans and controlling the United States? If so, I happen to disagree with that, but I don't view those as necessarily political positions. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 18:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Please cite something that is an example of how I think "Hitler was Great" or that the "British and French started World War II." You can see my contributions to articles and none of them are biased. Furthermore, this quote was in the article for at least a week before someone started throwing in NPOV and changed a lot of things (which I rewrote and still stand). The quote is in numerous sources and belongs here. You are removing it simply on the fact you do not like my opinions. Furthermore, from your history, you seem to have a pro-Israeli viewpoint, is that why are you removing the quote? Because you certainly don't want to value free speech if you feel on removing a citable quotation because you do not belief with the person who added it. ] 19:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::"I don't get why Germany is blamed for the start of WW2 when the Soviets did the same. I would argue that France and the UK did by declaring war on Germany". Now why don't you go and find a citation for your claim that the Uruguayan birth rate is low because of "" ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 19:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: You still have not answered me. Did the Haim Ramon not state the quote (and it is an acceptable contribution to the article) or are you simply removing it on your own personal bias of a wikipedia user? ] 19:49, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: I would like to add this quote was in the article for a two weeks before someone decided to delete it. That's the RV. ] 19:51, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: And that's really the issue in this discussion, not what editors disagree with in entirely different articles. That's a distraction tactic from the point at hand. ] 19:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::You asked me for a quote showing your claim that the British and French started WWII. I provided it. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 19:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Personally, I think this quote should not be included in the article, because, veritable or not, it does not reflect the official standpoint of Israel in its conflict with Lebanon. The Israeli Defense Army's aim was all along to destroy Hezbollah's launching posts and eliminate its members. Unlike Hezbollah, the IDF warned the civilians in the areas it was about to bomb by means of leaflets dropped from aircrafts. The fact that many civilians didn't leave the attacked areas, for various reasons, and subsequently killed is another issue, and the death of civilians was unintentional. Therefore, using Ramon's slip of the tongue as a representation of Israel's standpoint puts it out of context. It is very curious indeed, Volksgeist, that you chose to quote this out of all the things said by Israel's political representatives, a quote which totally condratics the Israeli government's perception --] 22:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :First, let's address your totally misconstrued and biased summary of leafletting. Civilians that were "fleeing" per leaflet instructions were blown up by the IDF using guided missiles, including at least one incident of an ambulance. Later Israel banned all vehicles South of the Litani river and targeted any violators. The routes of evacuation such as bridges were blown up along with other infrastructure preventing any civilians from fleeing. The fact that Israel dropped some leaflets made no effective difference to the civilians. You insinuate they stayed in a dangerous warzone completely by their own volition, which is one the largest stretches of imagination I have yet read on this "Encylopedia" Unlike the state of the art guided bombs and missiles given to Israel by the U.S., which are precise... Hezbollah had 40 year old Soviet missiles which basically point and shoot without any pinpoint accuracy. Even if we discount this, they additionally do not have an airforce like Israel, again a la the United States. So no mechanism to drop propaganda on the soil of sovreign foreign countries nor any way to know precisely where the missiles would land... so no area to leaflet even if they had the means and the desire. | |||
| :But as you said, that is another issue. Why would it be curious to quote a State Official that said ""Everyone in southern Lebanon is a terrorist and is connected to Hezbollah." ] That's an extremely belligerant and controversial statement. It's notable at the very least because of his positions as Minister of Justice and Minister of Internal Affairs, not to mention because of the content. Your position is nothing can be cited unless it is publicly passed by the Knesset as an official policy? I'm sorry, but that position is not supported by any Misplaced Pages guidelines. ] 22:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Then, Sarastro, we are also going to include some of this: ''"If they go from Sheba'a, we will not stop fighting them. Our goal is to liberate the 1948 borders of Palestine... can go back to Germany or wherever they came from.”'' (Hassan Ezzedin, Hezbollah spokesman) And this: ''Secretary-General Nasrallah’s official stance is that “Israel is an illegal usurper entity, which is based on falsehood, massacres, and illusions, and there is no chance for its survival.”'' And this: ''"There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel."'' Next we also have this one: ''Nasrallah said "I am against any reconciliation with Israel. I do not even recognize the presence of a state that is called "Israel." I consider its presence both unjust and unlawful. That is why if Lebanon concludes a peace agreement with Israel and brings that accord to the Parliament our deputies will reject it; Hezbollah refuses any conciliation with Israel in principle."'' So if you insist on including out-of-context quotes by Israeli politicians, we are also going to include these. Feel free to put Haim Ramon's quote back. But if you place it back, be aware that these quotes are going to be placed next to it. --] | <small>'']''</small> 22:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| It sounds like you are threatening retaliatory vandalism because you disagree with what is clearly a relevant quote. Is it supposed to punish me personally that you say you are going to put a quote from Nasrallah? I am really confused by what you are trying to prove here other than you have a very strong bias. ] 23:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| So what it looks like is the reason certain people do not want the quote in is because of a personal bias towards myself. Furthermore, it seems the people complaining about it also seem to be ones who are members of Jewish groups on Misplaced Pages. Is because the quote displays Israel in a negative light is somehow not appropriate? ] 00:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *Jew-haters get short shrift on Misplaced Pages. Get used to it. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 00:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: So, I guess, NPOV does matter if the original article has something to do with Judaism or Israel? Is the NPOV only for article not relating to the aforementioned? ] 01:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::My $0.02....first and foremost, in this case I think Volksgeist's credibility is irrelevant. The fact is that the quote in question is validated in major media (though I suspect it lost something in the translation) and I think we would need more factual grounds to keep it out. My recommendation would be to include it in a fashion that recognizes its context...a cabinet meeting discussion where the speaker's views were not adopted as the majority. A suggested inclusion: "Haim Ramon, the Israeli justice minister, fueled controversy and opposition to Israeli military actions when he said that 'Everyon in Lebanon etc etc.' The official Israeli position, however, remained one of attacking specific Hezbollah targets, some of which were in civilian areas." ] 03:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I've rewrote the included quote and placed it inline with the comments from Hezbollah (this should appease both parties). They seem to go in par with each other. I've realized that when it comes to articles relating to Israel and Judaism, Misplaced Pages is hardly a place for a NPOV as articles will be reverted and Misplaced Pages administrator members of the "Judaism project" on Misplaced Pages will swoop in lock/delete/ban/whatever. ] 13:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Talk about ] ] -- ] 13:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Volksgeist, you did not rewrite anything. You placed it back exactly as it was. The rest of what you are talking about is a big hallucination. As I said before, I am a virulent anti-Zionist who thinks Zionism is the biggest evil in the world. Zionism defiles the entire world with its impurity, Zionism causes wars, bloodshed and tragedies. The cursed Zionists, may their names be wiped out, such as Theodor Herzl, were atheist criminals, dirty traitors to the Jewish people. I do not want Israel to remain in existence, it should be dismantled as soon as this is practically feasible and replaced by a UN government. This is what those rabbis whom I consider to be the biggest Jewish leaders ever have determined. It is just laughable of you to accuse me of having a pro-Zionist POV. --] | <small>'']''</small> 14:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: I accused you of nothing. This is getting ridiculous, the quote was in the article for weeks and suddenly everyone that is part of the "Judasim project" here on Misplaced Pages keeps deleting the quote. It's verifable and should be included in the article, I have yet to hear a reason why it is not except by some idiot's personal bias. As I stated eariler it's quite obvious that anything having to do with Jews and Israel here is kept on a tight leash if it portrays them in anything that may be considered negative. ] 14:31, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Not wanting input from Jew-haters into Jewish-related articles is hardly "some idiot's personal bias". Since you've expressed your position regarding Jews so clearly, it should hardly be a surprise that your contributions are looked at with skepticism and disgust. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 14:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::: There doesn't seem to be a problem that the article is virtually controlled by an iron curtain, all of users of which are part of some sort Judiasm project on Misplaced Pages. Seems like a conflict of interest as well. I guess that's how "the tribe" operates, independent of the nation stupid enough to take them in. Soon they will find themselves destitute and finaically ruined as Spain was by "the tribe." ] 18:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Yes, Volksgeist, you did. And you're doing it again. How many times do we have to repeat that this quote is a misrepresentation? It was one minister's opinion. It is not and was not and has never been the official opinion of the Israeli government. The way it was written and the way you want to put it back makes it sounds as if it is. It is not. That is a misrepresentation of the facts. Yes, Ramon said that. And the other cabinet members do not agree. It is not Israel's official policy. If you clarify that, it would change things. --] | <small>'']''</small> 14:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I find that hard to believe. Bombing women, children, civilians, etc and then going "wait, it's not government policy?" Whatever. They (Israel) are the sole reason they are in this situation but I'm sure others will have to fight, die, and pay for it for them. ] 18:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{quotation|They (Israel) are the sole reason they are in this situation but I'm sure others will have to fight, die, and pay for it for them.|]|18:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)}} | |||
| Unfortunately, the above is ], and is not grounds for adding something to the article. -- ] 18:51, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :The above (18:41) is plain antisemitism. Any credibility Volksgeist ever had was just thrown out of the window. This is it. Volksgeist, just as a final desperate measure, take a look by Rabbi ] to a member of the British parliament. --] | <small>'']''</small> 19:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::How is saying Israel will get others to fight, die and pay for it for them... how is that anti-semitic (Is the nation of Israel a religion)? Do you not see the billions the United States gives Israel each year? (Even though their living standard is first world.) ] 19:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::What I see is that you are seeing complot theories on Misplaced Pages, talking about 'nations stupid enough to allow the Jews in', and 'how the Jews ruined Spain'. --] | <small>'']''</small> 19:20, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===Back on Topic=== | |||
| Please, this section is for discussing the Chaim Ramon quote, not attacking ] | |||
| So the issue at hand: | |||
| '''Pro:the quote was made by an official during an official meeting and is notable and verifiable | |||
| '''Con:the quote does not represent official Israeli policy and therefore cannot/should not be included. | |||
| We need to come to a consensus on the above and stop the petty bickering/namecalling. ] 19:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Maybe you intend to say that Volksgeist neads to quit throwing around complot theories about Jews on Misplaced Pages, claiming that countries that let Jews in made a mistake, and that Jews ruined Spain? --] | <small>'']''</small> 19:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Anyway, on topic. The quote can be included if it is accompanied by a clarification that the rest of the cabinet does not agree, and that this is not and has never been the official government policy. In which case I do not see why it should be included in any case. As I said before, if this quote should be included, some nice Hezbollah quotes should also be included. They are as irrelevant as this one. --] | <small>'']''</small> 19:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Your guideline presumes that readers are going to assume a quotation from one minister represents official policy. I don't see this as being the case, or something that is assumed in other articles. The Hezbollah stuff belongs in a different discussion that is not about Chaim Ramon. ] 20:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :This article is not about Ramon either. It is equally irrelevant. Add the Ramon quote and I will add Hezbollah quotes about all Israeli citizens having to die etc. Or don't add it and I won't add anything either. I would prefer the latter. --] | <small>'']''</small> 20:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Yes, well clearly notable items related to Israel belong in the article about Israel. Obviously Ramon being a Gov't Official in an official meeting meets this criteria. So is your viewpoint really that you think it is irrelevant, or it is just not notable enough to include? Please stop the ] threats. I am not interested in discussing irrelevant (to Chaim Ramon), Hezbollah quotations with you in this thread. ] 20:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Neither am I interested in this whole thing. We leave the quote out and we present the official stance held by both (well, all) sides in the conflict. No problems then. We are not going to include extreme statements by leaders on both sides which are not official policy. Problem solved, right? --] | <small>'']''</small> 20:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: If Israel's justice minister does not constitute an offical stance, then why is their a quote from "Hezbollah's envoy to Iran" on there? Certainly it looks like there is an Israel policy to virtually destroy Southern Lebanon as there is of Hezbollah to make life unpleasent in Northern Israel.] 20:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Argh, do I really need to explain this?? The TASK of an envoy is to convey the POSITION OF HIS MASTERS. That is the whole purpose of an ENVOY. So yes, if Hezbollah's ENVOY says such a thing it is RELEVANT. Just like that if Israel's ambassador to the US says something it is RELEVANT. Because his words ARE assumed to be Israel's official government policy. I cannot believe that I am actually explaining this. Please go learn basic international relations and politics and come back afterwards. --] | <small>'']''</small> 21:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Exactly. I commend you for your patience. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 21:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Let's use your logic. "You can't include quotes by Hezbollah because they don't represent the official policy of Israel." The argument you are making for deleting the quote is that only official policy of Israel can be included, but yet you admit to breaking that guideline by having other quotes. Obviously what you really believe through your actions and what is substantiated by policy, is a requirement for notability and verifiability. Both of these requirements are meant by the Chaim Ramon quote. Not liking the contents does not entitle you to suppress the POV of a major official. ] 20:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :No, you idiot, I never wrote that. Grow a brain. You are really acting like your brain is in your behind. And I am not going to apologize for this. You are completely twisting my words around and lying about what I said. I said that we should either include ''no'' statements by Israel or Hezbollah officials which are not official policy, ''or'' we include them both by Israeli and Hezbollah officials. Not only Israeli remarks and no Hezbollah remarks. You, apparently, fail to understand what I am saying here after I explained it at least five times. Grow a brain. --] | <small>'']''</small> 21:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Haim Ramon to quit over sexual misconduct charges: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5262884.stm ] 14:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Yes, so what? This article isn't about the news. --] | <small>'']''</small> 21:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| The Ramon quote does not belong in this article, since this article is about Israel, and not about Ramon (however it might be a good idea to put the quote ''in the article about Ramon'', if there is one). Similarly, the article does not need to be flooded with quotes by Nasrallah about Israel and Judaism. Those quotes belong in ] (where they do indeed appear) and/or ] where *checks* they also appear. Anyway, the only quotes that would be relevant here would be by ''military'' policy makers such as Olmert, Peretz and Halutz. Other quotes may be of note, but only in relation to the individual making them. - ] 14:00, 20 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Israel's Military == | |||
| How does Israel's Air force and Army compare with Canada's? Which one is better, which one is better funded? Israel does not have a Navy right? ] 18:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Israel has a navy, that's what was blockading the ports of Lebanon. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 18:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::The Israeli navy is not a separate part of the military, I believe. You have only the IDF - Israel Defense Forces - and the IAF - Israel Air Force. The navy is part of the Army, formally. I believe it is the same way in China. Don't take this to court, I'm not sure of it. --] 18:18, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::No, no, no. There are three seperate arms of the Israeli military - army, air force and navy. The IAF is an integral part of the IDF (the whole military). ] 21:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Thanks for clarifying! --] | <small>'']''</small> 20:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| How does Isreal's overall military power compare with Canada's? ] 21:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :It doesn't, because while Israel has and is allowed to have nukes, Canada has no nukes. What's the point having a weapon that you can't use? "you can use nukes" lol use it and see what happens. This is 2006 ] 21:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Why are you discussing Canadian military? Its totally irrelevant to this topic. What you should be discussing is why the US will "allow" Israel to have nuclear war heads and are so against the Iran even developing nuclear energy. | |||
| :Hi Jamesino...there is no comparison between the Israeli and Canadian militaries. Israel's battle-hardened armed forces are among the best trained and best supplied in the world. Canada's military, by contrast, lacks the strength and combat capability of many nations with less than 10% of its wealth and resources. Even without the nuclear issue, Israel is still militarily worlds ahead of Canada. Factor in Israel's nuclear weapons capabilities and the comparison becomes even more ludircously lopsided. Put another way, Israel's armed forces are certainly among the 10 most formidable in the world. Canada's would likely not be in the top 50 by most standards. Hope this gives you some idea. ] 03:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm pretty sure that the existance of Israel's nukes was never made official by the government, rather, it's just a "ghost weapon", to be used as a deterrant for any WMD usage upon it. To answer the above's question, Israel has never said that an entire country, or race should be killed, Iran has. Iran is run by a religious leader, which is never good news, wheras Israel is a democracy. Israel has never publically and completely persued a goal through ways unbecoming a democractic nation (I'm sure that many people will stand up tall and say "MOST CERTAINLY NOT, DEAR SIR!" but I've been around this country for a few years, and I know that if anyone messed up during a war, he pays for it afterwards, unlike Iran, where he is praised for it. ] | |||
| ::: Where has the leader of Iran suggested killing an entire 'race' (I thought race didn't exist?) of people? Here's an interesting URL I found, http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm "Does Iran's President Want Israel Wiped Off The Map - Does He Deny The Holocaust?" ] 20:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::See the article on mahmud: http://en.wikipedia.org/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad and I quote from the article: "According to widely published translations, he agreed with a statement he attributed to Ayatollah Khomeini that the "occupying regime" had to be removed, and referred to Israel as a "disgraceful stain the Islamic world" that would be eliminated." I would say that saying that something "has to be eliminated" rarely means that the people should be whisked away with first class airplane tickets and flown to the french riviera. The person has denounced the existance of the Holocaust, he has called for the destruction of Israel, which is why he supplied Hizbollah with money and weapons, they are an indirect arm of execution for him, meaning that he can damage Israel without being "directly" linked to the damage, just like he can't be literally caught calling for the destruction of Israel. Just because someone doesn't spell anything out doesn't mean that he didn't say it, put 2 and 2 together, it's not hard. Stop being overly objective and neutral, because at situations like these, you don't need all that much personal judgement to see the truth. By the way, I respect the fact that you want to remain neutral, but neutrality tends to be overrated, especially when it comes to words that come from the mouths of politicians. ] | |||
| Mongoose.....I dont care to compare Canada/Israeli armies....but ake away the $5 billion in arms the US supplies Israel every year and we will see how big there army really is.<small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 16 August 2006 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small> | |||
| Last I checked, it was around $3B, of which something like 2-2.5 comes back to the US and supports the US economy, but I could be misremembering. -- ] 14:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :That's $1.8 billion, and I believe most of it is used on American products. Other than military equipment, many simple things in the IDF is often bought from US firms, such as some office equipment, water coolers, etc. I don't know why items exactly are US-made though. -- ] <sup>(])</sup> 20:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| So, Avi, what you want to say is that Israel receives $3B aid from the USA. 2-2.5B happens to be spent on US products. It is still a gift of $3B to Israel and an (inefficient) subsidy of the US economy. Tobi. {{unsigned|86.129.112.179}} | |||
| :It basically works as a subsidy to American arms manufactuers, the US gives the money to Israel with a provision that Israel spends it on American arms, even if Israel has better domestic ones (which they often do) so you really can't seperate the subsidy without the provisions to how it is being used. Anyways the money is just a fraction of what Israel spends on its military (which comes from normal domestic sources) so even without the subsidy Israel would still have one of the best financed armies in the world. By the way, if you count up all the money that the US gives to potential enemies of Israel (like Egypt and Saudi Arabia) you would find that it dwarfs the amount that Israel gets.- ] | ] 21:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Please remain on topic, that is how to better this article. This is not a discussion forum. Thank you for your consideration. See ] and ]. ] <small>] • ]</small> 22:58, 19 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Is that the only thing you have to contribute to this talk page?- ] | ] 06:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| "Israel is allowed to have nukes" not according to the International Atomic Energy Agency, they are outside of the non proliferation treaty, same boat as North Korea, Iran, ect. but no one seems to like to mention that fact. August 23rd JustinMcL | |||
| *They're not signatories to the non-proliferation treaty, so they're not bound by it. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 03:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| "Israel has nukes" comes from foreign sources, most of these unverified. The Israeli government never declared it has nukes. | |||
| As noted, they are outside the nuclear non proliferation treaty (in other words, they never signed it) and by no stretch of imigination is Israel allowed by any international body to have nuclear weapons ]September 3rd | |||
| : There has never been an official government statement confirming it, but Shimon Peres confirmed it in a speech about eight or nine years ago IIRC. He was roundly condemned for doing so (and IMHO he should have been thrown out of office for it, and perhaps even been imprisoned), but the cat is now out of the bag. ] 07:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == 2006 conflict section == | |||
| Firstly, it should not be its own sub-section, any more than the Yom Kippur war and the 1982 conflict are their own sections. Secondly, it is inconsistent with the main article. It is suffering from the conflict being so recent. This should be dramatically cut down, following the pattern of all of the other conflicts. We have a main article for a reason. -- ] 15:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :It's logical, since Misplaced Pages didn't exist in 1973 and 1982. I think this phenomenon is unavoidable. --] | <small>'']''</small> 15:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I understand '''why''' it happened, but I believe we should restore the symmetry and balance. Summary-style and all. ] -- ] 15:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| For the record, I was pleased to find this sub-section exactly as it is, and it felt very natural balanced to me. I came to the Israel page looking to learn about the history of Isreal, and specifically how that history relates to the current conflict. I suspect the vast majority of visitors to this page will be interested in similar information. The current layout gave me exactly what I was seeking, and the fact that the current conflict is highlighted in its own section seems perfectly reasonable in light of its current importance to readers. No doubt, in another 5 or 10 years, this conflict will be no more important than other conflicts of other decades, and the section can be rebalanced at that time to account for the changing perspective. ] 00:06, 19 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :That is why we have ]. Clicking on the blue/purple ] is just as good, and does not disrupt the flow of the text. -- ] 03:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Israel == | |||
| "28% of the land was already bought and owned by Zionist organizations plus additional private land owned by Jews." Could an administrator please either (1) allow me to edit numbers out of a beginning of a sentence, or (2) do it herself? Gracias. | |||
| Israel, why have you violated the cease fire five days after it started? I know some israeli is gonna come and delete this. {{unsigned2|15:36, August 19, 2006|86.143.234.154}} | |||
| ^ | |||
| ! | |||
| ! | |||
| Are you under the impression that the Israeli consulate reads Misplaced Pages talk sections? | |||
| *What suggestions do you have for improving the article? --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 15:43, 19 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| As I said previously, we should have pro Israeli view and pro Arab view. Even though they are both points of view, they would neutralize each other due to both being included. ≈] 17:43, 19 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :No, actually, we should have facts. Also, it's a bit ignorant to say "pro-Israeli and pro-Arab" as though the two are in conflict. Arabs enjoy more rights and a better standard of living in Israel than they do in any of its neighbours. ] 01:50, 20 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| According to U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan Israel's raid violated the U.N ceasefire agreement. ] 02:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *And you put it in the article, thank you. Why are you pointing it out here also? It's certainly an uncontroversial addition. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 03:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| That belongs in the main ] article, not here. -- ] 03:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I find the person who keeps changing that Israel violated the ceasefire to "violations have occurred" a bit misleading. It's been all over the news the violations have been on the Israeli side, it's a bit ridiculous to say "although violations have occurred," I would appreciate if you stop changing it. I know you're from Israel but lets be real here, even the UN is upset about this one. ] 21:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *Yeah, but as has been pointed out, your Jew-hating comments have made every edit you do here suspect. Perhaps you shouldn't have outed yourself so thoroughly. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 21:56, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: That does not mean Israel's cease-fire violations have not occurred and does not mean that my edits are not truthful. How am I any more biased then someone with 9 different wikipedia Judaism stars and resides in Israel? The bias in the same. To say "although cease-fire violations have occurred" is ridiculous and I saw this coming when Israel's violations occurred. The Jews and Israelis here will not allow anything that puts them in a negative light. It's quite obvious there is also a disproportional amount of administrators with the above. ] 22:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::There have been Israeli violations, and there have been Hezbollah violations. to mention only the Israeli ones is POV. ] 22:51, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::: I have yet to have heard any in the news or I would of added them. Even Annan's statement only talked about Israel's raid and the airstrikes, where are the ones about Hizbollah? ] 23:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You don't read much, do you? Or rather, you are quite selective in what you read. Here you go, boy: | |||
| ] 23:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Hrm... (aug15th) "UP to a dozen rockets have been fired at Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon, the army has said, in what Israel has called a violation of the hours-old ceasefire in the area." Rockets in Southern Lebanon? Is that part of Greater Israel yet? Why did the UN not issue a statement about it being a violation? They were pretty quick when Israel invaded Lebanon again in a raid and then issued air strikes. Way to go Israel, bombing a nation back into oblivion. It's quite obvious in this whole incident that Israel has escalated it far out of control and continues todo so. This megaphone software must be working great...The userpage of most of the administrators here usually spells most of it out. ] 10:07, 22 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :This isn't a discussion forum. If you want to argue over Israel's actions, go find an appropriate political forum, or open a blog. This isn't the place. ] 11:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: Excuse me but I was responding the sponsors who keep changing Israel's blatant ceasefire violations to "although ceasefire violations have occurred." It's quite obvious they don't want the fact that Israel has violated them in the main article and I doubt you're no exception hailing from Tel Aviv. Nothing on Judaism or Israel on Misplaced Pages is unbiased because of the overwhelmingly disproportional amounts of administrators. ] 13:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Excuse you me... Are you asserting that there is an "overwhelmingly disproportional amounts of administrators" that are Jewish? Even if that was the case, in Misplaced Pages we do not discuss an editor's religion, political views, or otherwise. See ] that reads in reference to personal attacks that: "Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views — regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or extreme" is a personal attack, and not allowed in this project. Comment on the edits, and not on the editor. OK? ] <small>] • ]</small> 18:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: I find it hard to believe an editor from Israel is going to post unbiased accounts of the Israel-Lebanese conflict and the edits in this forum have backed this up. Furthermore, there is a disproportionate amount of Jewish administrators on Misplaced Pages and I think there is a reason many consider Misplaced Pages to be biased with certain subjects, namely Israel. ] 04:21, 23 August 2006 (UTC)1 | |||
| :::::::You just keep burying yourself deeper. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 04:34, 23 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::You're confusing Misplaced Pages with a newspaper. Misplaced Pages reports what other reputable sources have reported, not original accounts. Thus, the nationality of the editors doesn't matter. And I remind you of ] - editors' nationality or religion is NOT an legitimate issue here. ] 06:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::: You do not understand what a "ceasefire" means (or rather, you understand very well, but pretend to be obtuse so as to bash Israel). A "Ceasefire" means you stop shooting. when a ceasefire is reached while one side is occupying part of the other side's land, and shooting by that other side, even if it is wholly within its land, is a vioaltion of the ceasefire. It's actually a good question to ask why the UN did not issue a statement regarding this vioalation. It speaks volumes about the UN's lack of objectivity. ] 15:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That is not for us to say, however. Surely the UN is the appropriate judge on whether its own resolution is being abided by, no? ] 16:26, 22 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Sure, and we can say "Kofi Anan said..."; that's not the same as "The UN said", I don't think, since neither the Security Council nor the General Assembly has made such a determination. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 16:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Foreign relations pages== | |||
| Please see ] and ]. They could both use the perspectives of Israelis. There appears to be a revived movement to merge the Israel-Ven relations page into ] so I urge other users to vote '''against''' this. Respectfully, ] 19:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == "Israel" -> "State of Israel" == | |||
| How about moving the title of the article to ]....to be, you know, precise? ] 02:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :] already redirects here. ] <small>] • ]</small> 02:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| That makes sense, actually. Bibically, "Israel" refers to the Jewish people, not to the country. ] 02:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| : See the ]. It has one word: Israel. Are we now renaming all the country articles to whatever is their official name? If so, why start with Israel? For Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, we have article ], for Arab Republic of Egypt - ], for Syrian Arab Republic - ], for Italian Republic - Italy. Shall we continue? ←] <sup>]</sup> 03:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::There is no need to move the article. Most people will look for ], and those looking for ] will find it as well. ] <small>] • ]</small> 04:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| The fact that, as Sneech says, "Israel" has a major meaning entirely independent of the State of Israel is worth considering, and makes the case different from those of the other states mentioned. That being said, I think that ultimately most people looking up "Israel" will be looking for the state, and moving the article is unnecessary. A disambiguation notice at the top, which is already present, seems sufficient. ] 23:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Agree. ] 03:10, 22 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thirded. -- ] 15:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Detail of 2006 conflict in this article == | |||
| This article is supposed to be about the State of Israel. There should be short entries about each war, with wikilinks to the specific articles. This is '''not''' the place to start copying every detail from the 2006 conflict article, that is why we have it, and its myriad daughter articles. -- ] 14:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| : Agreed. In the last few months, there are incessant attempts to turn WP into a blog ]. ←] <sup>]</sup> 23:02, 21 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Over-swift reverts by ==== | |||
| I am concerned that some of my edits are being reverted by pro-Israeli forces within 1 minute of them being written and I am being accused of undue POV. I suggest that due consideration has not been given. | |||
| I was attempting to provide balance about the Lebanon-Israel war. Ar present it appears that the only casulaties have been Israelis (mentioned 4 times I think: my attempt to mention Lebanese casualties was immediately deleted. | |||
| ] 18:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :The article ] does not have an extensive section on Israeli casualties, why should this article have one about Lebanese? But if you ask my opinion, the 2006 conflict should take up only a few lines in this article, not several paragraphs like it does now. -- ] <sup>(])</sup> 19:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I haven't been working on ] so I can't really comment. I suggest that ''''both''' articles should show balance - it's not that each one is meant to balance the other article! (However, maybe the whoel lot should be in the ] article. | |||
| (But my main comment was that my revisions had been removed without due consideration.) | |||
| ] 20:56, 23 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| What about revisions ADDED without due consideration? | |||
| Dear Anon. (please sign in future -thanks!) | |||
| Oh I agree - there are '''lots''' of those! ] 16:55, 25 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == State of Israel == | |||
| This should be redirected to the State of Israel with ''Israel'' being a disambiguation page with links to other articles.] 17:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| : No it should not. Pls. see above ]. ←] <sup>]</sup> 21:49, 24 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == lutherians == | |||
| is in israel a lutherian church? simon mayer. | |||
| == Needs a major clean up == | |||
| This talk page is 90% bickering. It's about time that most of this was wiped clean. It's difficult to see any reasons for edits among all the PoV comments. If you want a chat room go meet in one but try to use this page for discussing the '''content''' of this entry rather than your own agendas. ] 17:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Origin of the name "Israel" == | |||
| The current (29 Aug 06) version of the article states: | |||
| {{quotation|In an ], literal translation of ] 32:28, the first mention of the word "Israel" in the Bible reads as follows: "And-he-is-saying not Jacob he-shall-be-said further name-of-you but rather Israel that you-are-upright with ] and with mortals and-you-are-prevailing."<ref name="He Wikisource">. ] (Hebrew). URL accessed ] ].</ref> Thus one literal translation of '''ישראל''', Israel, is "Upright (with) God" ('''ישר-אל'''; Ishr-al).}} | |||
| The link after the translation merely goes to the Hebrew Wikisource text of that verse. No justification is given for that particular translation, although there is some talk of it in the archives of the June 2006 Discussion page. I believe that this translation is in error, because that editor confused the root "yod-sin-resh" (which is the root which appears in the word "Yisrael") with the root "yod-shin-resh" (which does mean "upright" but is NOT in the word "Yisrael"). | |||
| The Misplaced Pages article on ] offers several links to recognized translations. Here is how our verse appears in five of them: | |||
| Jewish Publication Society: ''... thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed.'' | |||
| The Living Torah: ''... You have become great (sar) before God and man. You have won.'' | |||
| Judaica Press: ''... you have commanding power with God and with men, and you have prevailed.'' | |||
| New Revised Standard Version: ''... you have striven with God and with humans, and have prevailed.'' | |||
| King James Version: ''... for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.'' | |||
| I find it difficult to choose from among these translations, and it would probably be a violation of Original Research if I tried to. Plus, I find the previous current "interlinear, literal translation" to be so convoluted as to be useless. I am therefore going to delete this paragraph, and merge important parts of it into the previous one. Anyone who disagrees with me, please discuss it here. | |||
| Thanks. --] 02:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Frankly, I don't like the tone of your commentary and find it both small-minded and poorly researched. In point of fact, you've deleted material that was both clearly provided in good faith and source-cited. The "Interlinear Scripture Analyzer" (ISA) that is made freely available at http://www.scripture4all.org/ was directly quoted...at least, until you destroyed that quote. Your "edit" borders on vandalism, and you're all too obviously relying on the fact that the vast majority of English-speaking people do not read Hebrew and thus will not try to catch you at it. The sub-word in "Israel" '''ישר''' does in fact mean "upright," as any Biblical Hebrew dictionary can confirm. As further evidence, according to the above analyzer, the word '''ישר''' translates exactly 30 (thirty) times as "upright" in the Bible. --] 20:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm sorry you don't like my tone. I sincerely apologize. I hope you won't mind if we set aside discussion of the ISA for now, as I'd like to ask you about the second half of your comments. Specifically, I do not dispute your claim that ישר means "upright". I only dispute (what seems to be) your claim that it means "upright" regardless of whether the ש is a ''sin'' or a ''shin''. My claim (based not on the analyzer, nor on translations, but on my personal knowledge of the Hebrew language) is that ישר means "upright" ''only'' when the ש is a ''shin'', and not when it is a ''sin'', such as in the name "Yisrael". Please respond. Thank you. --] 23:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Actually, I do mind, as I can not so quickly set aside the use of ''citations'', which the ISA-sourced quotation certainly is. Neither Misplaced Pages's ] nor ] makes any meaningful distinction between ''shin'' and ''sin''; in fact, the latter uses them as two names for a single character. Perhaps you can source your claim. Otherwise, since, as you say, your claim is based on your own original research, I think the matter is essentially settled unless you can source your "personal knowledge of the Hebrew language" in a relevant fashion per the above. In any case, the text should be restored rather than unjustifiably pre-empted such as you have done. Your claims regarding lack of citation in the first post on this topic were clearly wrong at best, or intentionally misleading at worst. --] 00:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::(First, I sincerely thank you for this calm discussion rather than just changing my edits to your version.) Okay, I downloaded and installed ISA, and looked at this verse, and I still couldn't see your point of view. I clicked on the Hebrew word above "shrith", and got a box which led me to two verses (1 Ch 12:39 and our Gen 32:28). Looking at the links, it occurred to me that ISA seems to be based purely on spelling, while ignoring the various word forms. Granted, that might be an unfair jump-to-conclusion, but then I saw your post here, where you wrote: ''The sub-word in "Israel" ישר does in fact mean "upright,"'' This confirms my suspicion! You are looking at the three letters ישר as a single root-word meaning upright. And I agree that ישר does mean upright. But that's not how it is used in this context! The י is not part of the root here, but is part of the verb construction. The root is merely שר (meaning prince) and the י makes it into a verb. Now, my guess is that you will reject all this as being original research, and you'd be right. That's why I am going to reinstate the text that I deleted, but I will also add the alternate possibilities. --] 02:23, 31 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::And I appreciate both the calm dialogue and the response. While I agree with the fact that there are alternative "literal" interpretations...such as yours...these would ignore the major context provided by the words from Jacob's mysterious adversary to the effect that "you are upright with Elohim." By way of intellectual honesty, this alone clearly makes the described "upright" interpretation much, much more likely. Yes, proper Hebrew names referencing Elohim that are similar to "Israel" (Michael, Gabriel, Daniel, Uriel, Raphael, Samuel, etc.) do sometimes incorporate verbs...but the above context is of the essence. --] 03:36, 31 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: But there are no "words from Jacob's mysterious adversary to the effect that 'you are upright'...". The word there is שרית, not ישרת, and cannot possibly, under any circumstances, mean "you are upright". | |||
| :::::: What we have here is a dispute between someone who actually reads the language, and someone who cites a translation of unknown provenance and competence. Personal knowledge of a language is not "original research"; we all rely on our personal knowledge of English to interpret whatever sources we cite, and those editors whose personal knowledge of English is imperfect must defer to the rest of us whenever the question revolves around the meaning of a particular English word. So on this question, anybody who does not personally know Hebrew should defer to those who do. ] 20:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::As a hebrew speaker, I agree with the comments above. Though the letters "Shin" and "Sin" look the same, they are different. In normal usage you just have to know the word to know whether it's an "s" sound or an "sh" sound. When ] is used, "shin" has a dot on its upper right, and "sin" on its upper left. In the Tanakh the name Yisrael is written with a dot on the left of the letter, thus it is "sin" (otherwise it whould be "Yishrael"). The traditional interpretation (according to the Israeli Encyclopedia of the Bible, 1988) says that this is from the verb "Sara" (=fought, or confronted), in the future tense (Yisr), and "El" means god. Thus - it means he confronted god. There is an alternative theory about "Upright before god", claiming that the name was originaly "Ysharel". ] 18:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::As a Hebrew reader, I, too, agree with Keeves on this. A shin and a sin are completely distinct for purposes of the meanings of words, although they look alike. ISA (which I have not checked) must simply be making a mistake in not differentiating them. All Hebrew versions of the Bible of which I'm aware that include ] (and thus distinguish sin from shin) spell Yisrael with a sin. The context of the fighting story makes 'fought' (or the like) a very reasonable translation also. And I have to agree with Zsero, with all due respect, that those who do not really know the word, and are relying on translations, should defer to those who do.—]<span class="Unicode">℠</span> 22:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Of course, and as clearly indicated above, provided citations are given I am willing to collaborate and compromise on the translation. And I have. But given that the Hebrew language has only been revived and become more common since the end of the 19th century by the Jewish linguist ], I think it is merely egotistical to say that anyone should "defer" on the topic of the Hebrew language -- most certainly when good-faith citations are given. | |||
| Keeves', and others', existing translation of Israel as "princely...of God" is an acceptable translation, as similar words can be found in the Bible. However, if one wants to claim that Israel in some way translates as "one who struggles with God," they will be very hard-pressed to find any sort of comparable translation for "struggle" for similar Hebrew characters in the Bible...because such a similarity does not exist. Following ], that simply means that ''Israel'' doesn't translate that way. | |||
| In my opinion -- and merely in my opinion: (1) to say that ''Israel'' does translate as "one who struggles with God" is a self-flagellating (or perhaps even externally-originated) pejorative, and (2) if one '''believes'' that it translates that way, they it ''does'' -- for the person who believes that. I choose not to believe that. Moreover, I observe (not an opinion here) that there is clearly no evidence for it translating that way. But, according to your beliefs, so be it unto you. | |||
| The existing text provided by Keeves is adequate, if only in that it highlights the paradox that this word challenges each of us with. I am truly a big believer in paradox, as it exists in an abundance in nature, so when I say that ''Israel'' means what you choose for it to mean, I'm quite serious. --] 00:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :The "struggle" interpretation is obvious if you read the preceding verses - | |||
| :"24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. | |||
| :25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. | |||
| :26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. | |||
| :27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob." | |||
| :and the verses right after that: | |||
| :"29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. | |||
| :30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." | |||
| :(see , ) | |||
| :The word "Sara" is listed in the Even-Shoshan Dictionary (considered the definitive dictionary in the hebrew language) as meaning - "Fought, struggled". | |||
| :Summary - He struggles with a strange man, and wins. The man blesses him, and tells him he has struggled with god and prevailed, and Jacob says he's seen god face to face and survived - seems he means the mysterious man, since I read no other encounter here. | |||
| :Hebrew has been widely used continuesly since biblical times, as a language of worship and study, but also as a language between Jews from different countries (like Jews from Poland talking to Jews from Spain). I find it quite... annoying.. to argue over fine points of hebrew words with someone who doesn't even know the difference between Shin and Sin. ] 10:06, 4 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Addition by ] == | |||
| *The contribution talked about HRW and AI, but only referenced the HRW properly. Each citation should use a different "ref", and preferably link to a URL, where everyone can read the source. | |||
| *The HRW source said nothing about "deliberately targeting Lebanese civilians", only that the IDF isn't taking civilians into consideration properly. | |||
| *The HRW source also didn't mention cluster bombs. | |||
| *It also didn't mention the Geneva Conventions. Detemening whether something is a breach of the conventions is a legal matter, and an editor saying that here would constitute original research. | |||
| ] 17:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I will add a new HRW source on Israels use of cluster bombs ]. | |||
| --] 17:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Area of Israel == | |||
| Our article states that the area of Israel is 22,145 km² (149th) | |||
| 8,019 sq mi | |||
| - Water (%) ~2% | |||
| The BBC profile states that "Area: Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics cites 22,072 sq km (8,522 sq miles), including Jerusalem and Golan." Where does our figure come from and how reliable is it? | |||
| ] 01:12, 31 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == 2006 Conflict Information == | |||
| Just a minor detail...the capture and killing of Israeli soldiers in the Israel-Gaza conflict of 2006 occurred on June 24, 2006, not June 28. | |||
| ==Jerusalem or Tel Aviv?== | |||
| I see the capital city listed as Jerusalem - I thought that Tel Aviv was the capital of Israel? | |||
| ] 15:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Israel considers Jerusalem to be the capital, but most other contries do not recognize it. See ] for more info. --] 16:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: It's not up to anyone to "recognise" where a country has its capital. If a country puts its capital somewhere, that's where it is – it's a matter of fact, not opinion. East Germany had its capital in East Berlin, and everyone recognised that it was so, even though the city wasn't technically part of its territory; nobody ever claimed that the East German capital was "really" in ] or Rostock or somewhere. ] 20:54, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. However, Tel-Aviv is more recognized due to it's size. I wanted to point out that on the page about Israel it says that Jerusalem is the largest city, which is false. Tel-Aviv has a population of about two million, while Jerusalem has a population of about a million and a half. | |||
| :Please don't write about what you don't know as if it's fact - as you can easily see in the articles about ] and ], Jerusalem has twice as many inhabitants. Your confusion probably stems from Tel Aviv being the center of ], a large metropolitan area. However, Tel Aviv itself has only 379,000 residents. ] 21:58, 31 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Then we do have to agree to disagree. I consider Tel-Aviv and Yafo the same city, as do all Israelies, because they have reached the size where they are the same city. Once two cities physically connect they become the same one. If you check any map from Israel it says Tel-Aviv Yafo as the same city. So when you count the size of the population, please count Yafo as well next time. | |||
| :And please bother reading the article I linked to. I'll do it again - ]. See what it says? "Tel Aviv-Yafo" - it's legally one city, has been for 56 years now. The number I've given includes Yafo (not that it matter a lot). However, your definition, "once two cities physically connect they become the same one" is absurd, and unacceptable. A city is defined by its own local governing body (city council or the like), and has set borders. It doesn't matter if it's physcially connected to another city. Tel-Aviv Yafo is one city, and it borders several others - Ramat Gan, Givaataim, etc. But they're still seperate entities. That what's called a ]. ] 20:44, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::"Once two cities physically connect they become the same one." Ah! Then the news musn't have reached the North of England yet becasue Manchester and Salford are merged but retain distinct identities. What's the name of that city in Germany that's made of Recklinghausen, Dusien and Gelsenkirchen? Has no one told the Germans to rename it Ruhr? Please try to either keep to known facts or if your information is specifically about Israel then state that and give a reference. ] 21:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Israel under the Ottomans?== | |||
| It would be nice to see a little more information on what was going on in the region of Israel between the years of 1517-1920, including information about the relations of Jews and non-Jews in the region during this period. | |||
| : This article is about the modern Israel rather than ], ] or ]. HTH. ←] <sup>]</sup> 22:27, 31 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: This article does describe the immigration of Jews to Israel before Israel becomes a "modern" state; however it does not describe the relations of these immmgrants with non-immagrants, including non-Jews. Since (as you point out) this article is not about Jewish History, but rather about the State of Israel, its account of they years leading to the founding of Israel should not focus only on the waves of Jewish immigration to the region, but should at least mention the other groups encountered by these immigrants (who are also a part of the history of Israel), and the social and political framework into which these Jewish immigrants arrived. This area of history has always been murky to me, and I think many readers would welcome some accurate information about the circumstances that immediately preceeded Israel's founding (btw, the articles you link to have very little information on this). | |||
Revision as of 20:12, 4 September 2006
NO ONE IS MATURE ENOUGH TO TALK HERE SO I'M DELETING THIS PAGE.