Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:38, 29 October 2016

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Royalty and Nobility This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by WikiProject Royalty and Nobility. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Hungary Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hungary, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Hungary on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HungaryWikipedia:WikiProject HungaryTemplate:WikiProject HungaryHungary Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Greece Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greece on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Poland Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Poland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Poland on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PolandWikipedia:WikiProject PolandTemplate:WikiProject PolandPoland Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Ukraine Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ukraine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ukraine on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.UkraineWikipedia:WikiProject UkraineTemplate:WikiProject UkraineUkraine Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Middle Ages Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Archives

Archive 1

Hóman's Borises

Bálint Hóman wrote of two Borises in his Magyar történet (). One Boris was identical with Boris Kalamanos, who died around 1154, fighting against the Cumans, according to Hóman. The other Boris was Ban Boris, whom Géza I made Ban of Bosnia, for which Géza I's brother, Stephen (the former Duke of Bosnia) fled to the Byzantine Empire in 1158. Consequently: (1) Hóman does not identify the two Borises; and (2) he does not write that Boris Kalamanos was made Ban of Bosnia by Géza I. An earlier debate also makes it clear that Nada Klaić does not identify "Ban Boris" with Boris Kalamanos either. For Boris Kalamanos died around 1154, "Ban Boris/Boric" ruled in Bosnia in 1167, all theories identifying them can easily be described as a fringe theory. Borsoka (talk) 10:15, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Historians like Simeon Bogdanović explicitly say Boris Kalamanos and "Borić" were the same person, so don't delete their claim based on your POV on Hóman. Also, Klaić quotes Hóman as saying "Banus Boris" (not just Boris) when discussing Arpads' right to Bosnia (p.48 in her book), and Kalamanos was the only Arpad named Boris at that time. 217.197.142.229 (talk) 10:49, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

However, Klaić does not say that Ban Boris was a member of the Árpád dynasty. And the exprerssion "борис" cannot be find in the allegedly cited book by Simeon Bogdanović. Borsoka (talk) 11:13, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages doesn't allow primary sources or POV. My refs are secondary sources: Klaić's on Hóman, and Vukićević & Ćosović's on Bogdanović. 217.197.142.229 (talk) 11:56, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Nobody cite primary sources, but you have not verified that either Hóman or Klaić identify Boris Kalamanos with Ban Boris, and you have not been able to prove that the allegedly cited book by Bogdanović identifies the two Borises. Borsoka (talk) 12:02, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Hóman and Bogdanović are primary sources here, and you are just a Misplaced Pages editor. What does Bogdanović have to do with Klaić?! Klaić identified Hóman's Banus Boris as an Arpad, otherwise she wouldn't have bothered opposing Arpads' right to Bosnia; the only Arpad by name Boris at the time was Boris Kalamanos. 217.197.142.229 (talk) 12:14, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Would you quote the text from Klaić's work which proves that she identifies Boris Kalamanos with Ban Boris? During the previous debate, this claim was not proved. Borsoka (talk) 12:17, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

You don't need to cite the obvious. So can you answer: what does Bogdanović have to do with Klaić? 217.197.142.229 (talk) 12:32, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

However, it is not obvious. The claim that Klaić identified Ban Boris as a member of the Árpád dynasty has not been proved for a while. If you cannot cite more than one historians who identify Boris Kalamanos with Ban Boris, how can you prove that this is not a fringe theory, especially if we take into account that ordinary men can rarely rule after their death (Boris Kalamanos died in the early 1150s, Ban Boris still ruled around 1167). Borsoka (talk) 12:38, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

The issue of Borić's identity is so poorly understood and so rarely addressed that 1 reference is a gem. On your dates speculation: historic dates are almost always based on primary sources not allowed on Misplaced Pages, but for the sake of discussion: don't you find it improbable (in light of your own POV) that 2 men for whom at least one historian claimed were the same person, dies in the same year the other man appears? Again: what links Bogdanović to Klaić?! 217.197.142.229 (talk) 13:16, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

No, one reference is not a gem. It is a minority or fringe POV. "My" dates are not speculations: they are based on scholarly works cited in the relevant articles. No, it is not interesting: a man who dies in the early 1150s can hardly be identical with a man who is mentioned for the first time in the late 1150s. I do not know (and have not claimed) any link between Bogdanović and Klaić: the former allegedly identifies Boris Kalamanos with Ban Boris, the latter clearly does not identify the two men. Borsoka (talk) 13:43, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

You asked me to quote where Bogdanović equates them: "Међутим, један од познијих писаца (Синиша у Летопису Матице српске, књ. 151) вели, такође, да је Ана била кћи босанскога бана Борића. Али ту узима да су бан Борић и Борис, син Коломана I, краља угарског, једно лице". So it's not allegedly, but literally. Bogdanović ref is a gem as it doesn't fall into questionable sources. The Undue tag must go. Also, here's an example of a ref on Boris possibly not been who you think, and on historic dates surrounding him being speculative, with another example here. 217.197.142.229 (talk) 14:08, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

You have not cited a single quote which states that the two Borises were identical. According to Google Translate, the above quote says that a late primary source claims that a certain Anna was the daughter of Boric which would imply that Boric was identical with Boris. However, you have not presented the conclusion of the scholar who wrote this sentence. The other citation also proves that Boris Kalamanos died in the 1150s. How could this source prove that he was identical with a man who ruled Bosnia in the 1160s? Borsoka (talk) 14:37, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• Start-Class biography articles
• Start-Class biography (royalty) articles
• Unknown-importance biography (royalty) articles
• Royalty work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• Stub-Class Hungary articles
• Low-importance Hungary articles
• All WikiProject Hungary pages
• Stub-Class Greek articles
• Low-importance Greek articles
• WikiProject Greece general articles
• All WikiProject Greece pages
• Stub-Class Poland articles
• Low-importance Poland articles
• WikiProject Poland articles
• Stub-Class Ukraine articles
• Low-importance Ukraine articles
• WikiProject Ukraine articles
• Stub-Class Middle Ages articles
• Low-importance Middle Ages articles
• Stub-Class history articles
• All WikiProject Middle Ages pages