Revision as of 20:03, 9 September 2006

PLANS

As a friendly suggestion: reduce your arguments to a cogent paragraph or two; this is more effective and leaves a better impression than sprawling pages. Even I, sympathetic to your point here, shudder at the format! Best wishes. Hgilbert 14:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for telling. I don't like long drawn out discussion back and forth about details. That's why I try to be as thorough as possible from the beginning in my argument. But the thoroughness does't seem to impress my main opponent. Or maybe I just read too much Steiner ... ;-) --Thebee 18:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Invitation to join a Project

Dear TheBee, I am starting a project to overhaul and balance the article on Waldorf ed. I would like to invite you to take part because of your ongoing contributions to the page. Please le me know at my Talk page if you would like to participate. Wonderactivist 16:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear Wonderful Bee,

I will send your friend an invitation to join the project and will be thrilled to list you as a participant. Unfortunately I broke a finger last week and have not been typing much - I will set up the project pages later today.

I understand everyone's concern...and I also love Waldorf ed...but I also love Misplaced Pages and find that it is just necessary to intervene to make this a fair, unbiased page which is notthetopc of ongoing edit wars. Please understand that one of the ideas I plan to advance with this project is no outside links other than to scholarly articles. This step alone would end many of the ongoing problems.

My own page and other homescholing pages have been removed from this page - as the homeschooling page offers resources which will help them find everything - and has gone through its own process of reducing huge numbers of links to just a few.

I hope you know that I respect your contributions to the page over time and will welcoe you asa member of the team to make this a more stable article.

Best wishes,

Lucie Wonderactivist 15:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

New Project Page

Dear Bee, I just want to again invite you to join the project - the project page has been moved to its proper Wiki place (I am here a year and still a newbie really),User:Wonderactivist/Waldorf Project Team Page. I really think you have a whole lot to offer this project amnd with the help of unbiased Wiki editors, I believe we can end the ongoing edit wars that have been the waste of so much time for so many really good people. Please do join us, we're currently talking about the introduction. Wonderactivist 02:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Can you contact me?

I'd prefer to keep all wiki related discussion on-wiki if you don't mind. When conversation goes behind closed doors there's always somebody ready to shout Cabal!!! or similar. If your question relates to the Waldorf Education article it's in the best interests of everybody to keep all discussions open and transparent. That said, how can I be of assistance? I'm also looking into the other points you raised now and will help out shortly if I'm able to. -- Longhair 00:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Dispute resolution

Misplaced Pages has several levels of dispute resolution detailed at Misplaced Pages:Resolving disputes. If there's editor behaviour that you are not happy with, feel free to provide me with the actual diffs where you feel the editor concerned may be breaching Misplaced Pages policy. I will be happy to act accordingly if it is proven breaches of policy are occuring. Of course, you are welcome to initiate any dispute resolution procedure you deem necessary without my intervention. I trust this advice is the best course of action for now considering the size and length of the dispute, but if there's any other way I can be of some assistance please let me know. -- Longhair 07:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

...and a belated Welcome to Misplaced Pages!

Welcome!

Hello, Thebee, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

• The five pillars of Misplaced Pages
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  -- Longhair 07:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Waldorf debate

Pete K was the one who mentioned this debate had been raging for decades. I never made any assumption as such but I'm aware this issue hasn't recently began here at Misplaced Pages. He's currently serving a 24 hour block from editing, imposed by myself for a violation of the three revert rule. He is welcome to return once his block expires. Please be mindful of this policy so it doesn't catch you or anyone else out. I'm not interesting in taking any sides, but I will keep the article free of edit warring and personal attacks from both sides. Thanks for your assistance to date. I'm here to help further if any other issues arise. -- Longhair 01:39, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

"Decades" is an overstatement, maybe typical of Pete. Maybe 9 years in a more organized form initiated by "PLANS, starting its anti-Waldorf campaign by picketing against a public Waldorf methods school, spreading and supporting allegations that anthroposophy is a satanic religion and that public Waldorf methods schools teach Wicca to the pupils.

Some years later, the President and Secretary of PLANS then hired a Private Detective to "in secret" sneak in at a voluntary, private, off campus, outside school hours Advent celebration with K-grade 3 children of the coming Christmas with a video camera hidden under his coat, to prove to school districts that Waldorf methods schools are religious in a way that violates the U.S. Constitution. See the history of the WC.

Maybe you can call that debate.

How do you - strictly as Admin at Misplaced Pages - view the repeated insertion of identical material in a short introductory page to a sub section of an article, that belongs in the sub section, and is discussed there, by someone (PK) who refuses to discuss the issue in connection with its proper page? Or can't I ask you how you - purely as Admin - view Misplaced Pages guidelines and their application?

To tell you honestly, this debate at Misplaced Pages is killing me.

Thanks for your comment and support,

--Thebee 02:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Question regarding NPOV

You asked on my talk page a Question regarding NPOV - my response: Talk:PLANS#NPOV_-_In_support_of_Plans and . I agree with the issue you raised. This is not really a content dispute I want to get dragged into but I am happy to support the observation of Misplaced Pages policies, if necessary expalining them to users.--Arktos 09:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Will you do this in this case? Thanks, --Thebee 10:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I will provide my opinion on matters of policy, but I know all but nothing about Waldorf or PLANS. The way out of content issues to my mind is with citations of reliable sources and I think the Wkipedia policies and guidelines provide useful parameters to operate within.--Arktos 10:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Will you implement what you tell with a request at the page? Thanks, --Thebee 10:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

As per above, or are you looking for more?--Arktos 10:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Would you suggest I delete the argumentative section, referring to violation of http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#The_neutral_point_of_view or take some other action? --Thebee 10:44, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Allow 24 hours for a response to the tag and in the mean time think how to phrase more neutrally if possible rather than remove altogether. Replace with more neutral text after 24 hours (some will say 24 hours isn't long enough but on a volatile article I think it is) - perhaps having allowed discussion on proposed replacement text on talk page first. If you had placed what others deemed controversial text, how would you like it to be dealt with? - how would good faith be demonstrated? The end state needs to be neutral though, so its not only about being nice.--Arktos 10:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! How about the long quote at the end from a general and Copyright perspective?

I don't see it as a copyvio, it is properly attributed and clearly a quote if we are both talking about the speech extract within the section PLANS#Waldorf_Master_Teacher_talks_about_PLANS. I think a cite is needed about the consequence of the speech. I don't know enough as to whether the whole thing is sufficiently notable to be included. Would naything be lost if it wasn't. Could it be referred to more briefly, ie paraphrase to give something like:

Waldorf teachers have noted that Dan Dugan, noted critic of the Waldorf system was not the cause of the problem but rather shed light on to issues with the Waldorf education system (and give cite to speech already referenced)

Just my two cents. What is there doesn't breach any policy or guideline but is perhaps unnecessarily verbose for the purpose.--Arktos 11:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I have described how the speech is used by PLANS at its site in a comment at the Waldorf:Talks page. It is also described here. Can that be described at the PLANS page as addition to the quote? --Thebee 11:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

On "If you had placed what others deemed controversial text, how would you like it to be dealt with?":

Well, I try to avoid violating Misplaced Pages guidelines, not argue in articles, describe facts using neutral language and stick to statements that I can provide references/citations for. --Thebee 10:53, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Then I hope all goes well with your editing :-) I know it isn't always that easy but it helps if your editing has met all the guidelines.--Arktos 11:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's sort of not quite my experience from discussions at the Waldorf:Talks page. --Thebee 11:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Question regarding possible personal attack

At the PLANS:Talks page one user writes to me: "You have replied to a request for documentation, with a bunch of sleaze." Does that fall within the category of personal attack? Thanks, --Thebee 11:07, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, probably - are you sure you want to escalate though or just ignore - it reflects badly on the writer not you doesn't it?--Arktos 11:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

There is a limit to accepted number of personal attacks at Misplaced Pages. If they do not start to be pointed out at some time, how do you know when the limit has been reached? --Thebee 11:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

You can record instances via using diffs - all instances contribute. The user who made the comment above has been warned by me --Arktos 11:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, these personal attacks are killing me. --Thebee 11:37, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

For a description by User DW herself 3 September of how she relates to the expected reasoned discussion culture here at Misplaced Pages, and the warning she received against making personal attacks in the discussion here, see here. For some comments on the issue she writes that she would bring into the discussion, if she did not get her will through, see here and here --Thebee 10:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• Hmmm - I didn't understand the latter two refs - I am not into the content! She noted that she was chastised, hopefully she will behave here in future (ever the optimist). The page you need by the way is WP:PAIN to report instances of personal attacks and/or lack of civility. Please note the rules at the top of the page.--Arktos 10:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the ref! The main bait used by the WC's since some years, to get people hooked up and enraged in their anti-Waldorf campaign, after the first allegations that Waldorf schools teach the pupils witchcrft, is to cultivate a myth that Steiner was an anti-Semite. The two links analyze some of the main arguments used by the WC's to achieve this, and describe the view of R.S. of Jewry and Judaism and how it is related to in Waldorf education. The first mentioned link and other articles at Waldorf Answers try to document the baselessnes of and dismantle the myth, and other demagoguery by the WC's.

On "hopefully she will behave here in future (ever the optimist)": Her own description of her habitual way of "arguing" can seem to speak against your hope. But optimism is what keeps the world up and running ;-)/ How do you suggest arguing against self described "rants and raving, and rants and ravings" every second hour by people here, using it seemingly to try to "prove" that the WC-group is not a hate-type of group ...?-/ --Thebee 11:23, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Stay unenraged (is that a word? perhaps stay calm is better) and reference your assertions with reliable sources. Be reasonable. Edit elsewhere too - there is a tonne to do :-)--Arktos 11:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Question regarding revert

Does the three revert rule refer to three reverts in three different articles, three reverts of different edits in one article, or three reverts of the same edit in the same article? Thanks, --Thebee 15:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• WP:3RR - refers to three reverts concerning the same content in one article. 4th revert and you will be blocked if reported. Please read the policy - there are a few exceptions (egregious vandalism for example).--Golden Wattle (formerly known as Arktos) 19:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! --Thebee 07:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Charter school case

Arktos, You suggest that a special article be written on the charter school case by the WC against two public school districts. It is already described in detail in the article on PLANS. --Thebee 21:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Question on limit to acceptible Edit warring by User P.K.

Hi Golden Wattle,

Can you look at 25+ examples of Edit warring by User P.K. in different articles from 20 August up to 9 September (seven of them today), 8 personal attacks, and spamming of Talks page with duplicate POV quotes from vandalism of main article on subject, belonging in other article, there as part of NPOV, and spamming of Waldorf article with duplicate links to anti-Waldorf site in different link categories, documented here, and tell where the acceptible limit is for such personal attacks and vandalism of articles, including the latest one, using false and defamatory allegations as motivation, making another admin block the article from further editing, and with the user then telling he's Rolling on The Floor Laughing?

Where's the limit to where you go from warning and 24 hr block to permanent blocking? 10 Edit warring examples? 15? 20? 25?

Do you have a standard?

Just curious, sort of ...

Thanks, --Thebee 18:51, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Waldorf Project Update

Hey Bee, so sorry to read of the problems. I know you haven't formally signed up for the project, but since you expressed interest on my Talk page, I wanted to give you an update as I am doing with all project members. You are so welcome to join in at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Waldorf Project

Consultation Stage

We are currently in a stage of consulting with unbiased Wiki administrators about project management and plan to proceed with our next steps in 2 or3 days.

At that point we will also surely have final project pages set up outside of my user. Wonderactivist 04:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is a copy of my note to admin and input has already begun. Wonderactivist 05:06, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear Longhair and Cormaggio, Thank you immeasurably for your help with the Waldorf project so far. As you will note below, I am planning shortly to move the project pages to within alt ed - just want to clarify structure first. It is currently at User:Wonderactivist/Waldorf Project Team Page

With your admin experience, and the amount of back-n-forth this article has undergone - actually speeding up since the proposed project - I would like your opinion on strategies to manage the project if you should have time.

I see two major issues:

1 there are "sides" within the group instead of a single focus on creating a good article. While this is somewhat to be expected, I also expected a greater level of professionalism. Is there a known strategy to begin to turn this around?

2 Unbelievably, I think,we have actually reached almost a consensus on the Introduction. I would like to focus on this positive and if possible have it become a springboard for examining just one section at a time. 3 On the current project page, a format for the article has been proposed, while the person actually rewrote the whole article, I propose taking just the OUTLINE - the section names 0- and beginnning with agreeing upon the sections.

Other than the administrative questions, my project strategy will be to set up two pages within the alt ed project:

1 to lay out a structure - outline only - for the page 2 to finalize with formal agreement, the introduction. 3 ONLY begin work on the next section when we have agreed upon the above two, then moving just one section at a time.

My hope is that it will disarm the ongoing wars over fine points and pet projects.

What is your opinion?

And thank you from the bottom of my transplanted Texas heart! Wonderactivist 04:14, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Rudolf Steiner edit warring

This edit warring has to stop. I am warning all three parties involved, yourself, Pete K and Hgilbert. I am also not going to be a mediator in this content dispute. But I am warning all three of you, if anymore diffs I see are revert warring on this article or any other related article, all three of you will be reported for 3RR vioations. Please don't put yourself and others in conflicts which result in edit warring. Please discuss this until resolved and then make the appropriate change, ok? — The Future 19:37, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Pete does not describe his repeated spamming of the article with ever new and earlier POV quotes as 'reverts'. He does not accept to bring them to the proper article for discussion and editing there, and has refused to accept any such suggestions whatsoever. It's the same type of spamming of the waldorf article he engaged in with repeated duplicate links in all sorts of link categories, to an extreme anti-waldorf site when he entered Misplaced Pages. What do you suggest? Just leaving them as they are in the main article? Or do you not consider them to constitute spam of the article? Thanks, --Thebee 20:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)