Talk:General Motors streetcar conspiracy: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 22:45, 23 January 2017 edit1989 (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, File movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers39,179 edits OneClickArchiver archived Re Green Line; to Talk:General Motors streetcar conspiracy/Archive 5 ← Previous edit		Revision as of 22:45, 23 January 2017 edit undo1989 (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, File movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers39,179 edits OneClickArchiver archived Questionable edits by IP user to Talk:General Motors streetcar conspiracy/Archive 5 Next edit →
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	== Questionable edits by IP user ==

	] edits seem to have an agenda. Comments on user's talk page suggest industry bias and flagrant disregard for Misplaced Pages guidance and processes. I suggest a case-by-case review of all of users contributions to this page. Edit: I began this process, but soon realized I don't have the endurance to take on such a large endeavor on a topic in which I have no preknowledge nor great amount of interest.--] (]) 10:39, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

	:So, you have neither knowledge or interest, yet you edit? That sounds like a recipe for disaster. It also sounds like a falsehood. ] (]) 15:01, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

	::While I didn't know about this subject before reading the article. I ''am'' educated in Misplaced Pages policies and methodologies. Please do not conflate the two. Your edits, including the retitling of this section of the talk page—but also as seen throughout your user history—show disregard for NPOV, frequent attempts to tarnish the character of your ideological opposition through use of weasel words, disregard for Misplaced Pages's dispute process, participation in multiple edit wars, ''argumentum ad hominem'' rather than the expected ''argumentum ad rem'', use of dubious tags, and—in my opinion—systematic bias for transportation tycoons and against their employees & customers.--(OP)] (]) 23:54, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

	::I have reverted your most recent changes. My edit summaries explained the purpose of the edits made. Your edits proport me to be a sock puppet. I have been editing Misplaced Pages since 2004. I closed my user account in 2010 due to concern for my family's safety after the disclosure of my personal information on Misplaced Pages. My subsequent posts have been by IP. You have reverted an edit without regard to the reason it was edited and again used ''argumentum ad hominem'' in your edit summary.--] (]) 00:22, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
	:::You appear to have added unsourced claims, and to have added a tag with no justification here other than a general complaint about an unspecified agenda, all without evidence. Please stop telling us your history (it's irrelevant) and stop talking about editors (use ] for that). Is there any reason why your edits should stand? ] (]) 01:48, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

	::::{{ping\|Johnuniq}},check out the "vandalism warning" left on my user page. Yupp, I suspect this sock needs a new ban. ] (]) 04:31, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
	:::::I suggest you delete the nonsense on your talk, or if wanted, I'm happy to do it as a third party. Or, ] is good too. I forget why I'm watching this article and have no recollection of past problems. Judging by the IP's content-free spray we will see more. There's no rush and patience will prevail. By the way, your ping did not work. For a notification to work, a '''new''' comment with a new signature has to be added; editing an existing comment does not count because that might send multiple notifications when people fix their typos. ] (]) 07:29, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
	:::::::I reverted the IP's edit on the article page; there are simply no good cites for this. Streetcars in OK city went bust in 1940; the company which took over transit initially planned a full replacement with motorbuses; only the war stopped them - a common thread in many transit histories. Jordan Petroleum, or rather their owner, took over soon afterwards end and completed the program. ] (]) 18:44, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
	:::::::::{{ping\|Johnuniq}}, the Sock drawer was filling up. ] (]) 16:06, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
	::::::::::My suggestion is to stop talking about socks and other editors, particularly on an article talk page. Likewise, the IP should stop talking about other editors. If anyone has a comment regarding article content and how it might be improved, please add a new section. ] (]) 02:03, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
	Message for the shifting IP: This is not the right page for your opinions on other editors. Your recently deleted comments raise no specific issues and merely contain blather voicing dissatisfaction with another editor. Take one example of article content and explain the issue in a new section without mentioning other editors. The place for opinions might be ] but '''evidence''' would be needed, not a content-free spray. ] (]) 02:08, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

	== For inclusion ==		== For inclusion ==

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General Motors streetcar conspiracy received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

This article was nominated for deletion on May 1 2013. The result of the discussion was keep.

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

For inclusion

Be careful how you refer to the Great American Streetcar Scandal

The Real Story Behind the Death of Streetcars in the United States

Aimed, essentially,at the same audience that once bought into Snellery. Anmccaff (talk) 20:36, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

removed the "|" sign that screwed up the link. Thanks for them btw.George Leung (talk) 14:24, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Non neutral

Springee attempted to remove the non-neutral tag. There is no improvement in the tone of the article. It continues to suffer from the years of overt ownership of Anmccaff. Undoing any of this non-neutral content has proven impossible vs his overwhelming forcefulness. His obnoxious might does not make it right. Trackinfo (talk) 04:03, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

OK, I didn't realize this was still an active issue. Thanks for adding the talk page comment. Springee (talk) 04:07, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

This page has over 50 sections and is tl;dr. Can someone please succinctly explain why there is a neutrality tag on this article? It is not normal for such a tag to be on an article for two years. Coretheapple (talk) 15:42, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

I would second this. I have respect for all the parties involved (and have been involved myself). However, I've also been out of the loop long enough on this article to no longer recall what the issues were. Could we restart the process and try to sort things out a bit? Two years is a long time for a neutrality tag. Springee (talk) 04:15, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Here is where the article was before Anmccaff got involved. I assume the subsequent edit that originally added the POV tag was him as an IP. In the subsequent 1,000 or so edits, most of the content in this article was reversed, previous sources removed and discounted (called discredited or debunked by Anmccaff). His POV has taken over the article. Any efforts to correct or add sources that do not agree with his POV have been rebuffed. It is an overwhelming task to try to begin the rewrite, made impossible when each step is reverted, with a lengthy, disjointed diatribe associated with each attempt. Here is but one example of my own attempt to start. Squashed from the word go. WP:OWN. Previous editors, including myself, have given up the effort. A few subsequent editors have cleaned up Anmccaff's poor editing style technically and have made minor revisions to his phrasing, but the essence of the content comes exclusively from the forceful opinion of Anmccaff. The lawyer like intimacy of his knowledge of this subject and his work to whitewash the record of the convicted conspirators, strongly suggests to me a WP:COI situation, but of course I couldn't prove it. It is an ironic twist that the POV tag was added at the beginning of his devolvement of the previous version of the article. Now that the article totally reflects his POV, the tag is quite deserved. Trackinfo (talk) 05:08, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

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Schramm excerpts.

The web piece on Detroit appears to be a fairly faithful excerpting of published work; should it really be called "self published", or should it be seen as a convenience site for a less-available print source? Anmccaff (talk) 17:58, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

The Institute for Transportation and Development Policy is not a "self-published source"

Don't confuse a convenience cite with the material referenced. Anmccaff (talk) 18:20, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Sourcing

Book-length sources listed in "Further reading" not used in body of article

Bottles, Scott L (1987). Los Angeles and the Automobile. University of California Press. ISBN 0-520-05795-3.
Black, Edwin (2006). "10". Internal Combustion: How Corporations and Governments Addicted the World to Oil and Derailed the Alternatives. St. Martins Press.
Goddard, Stephen B. (1994). Getting There: The Epic Struggle between Road and Rail in the American Century. Basic Books.
Hanson, S. and Giuliano, G. editors (2004). The Geography of Urban Transportation, Third Edition. The Guilford Press. ISBN 1-59385-055-7. {{cite book}}: |author= has generic name (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
Fellmeth Robert (1973). Politics of land: Ralph Nader's study group report on land use in California. Grossman Publishers. pp. 410–414, 488. ISBN 0-670-56326-9.
Hilton, George W; Due, John F (1960). The Electric Interurban Railways in America. Stanford University Press. ISBN 0-8047-4014-3.
Kunstler, James Howard (1994). The Geography of Nowhere: The Rise and Decline of America's Man-Made Landscape. Free Press. ISBN 0-671-88825-0.
Lewis, John E. The Mammoth Book of Conspiracies. Constable & Robinson Ltd. pp. 152–62.
Norton, Peter D. (2008). Fighting Traffic: The Dawn of the Motor Age in the American City. MIT Press. ISBN 0-262-14100-0.
Thompson, Gregory Lee (1993). The Passenger Train in the Motor Age: California's Rail and Bus Industries, 1910–1941. Ohio State University Press, Columbus, OH. ISBN 0-8142-0609-3.

Journal articles listed in "Further reading" not used in body of article

Adler, Sy (1991). The Transformation of the Pacific Electric Railway: Bradford Snell, Roger Rabbit, and the Politics of Transportation in Los Angeles. Vol. 27. Urban Affairs Quarterly.
Fischel, W.A (2004). An Economic History of Zoning and a Cure for its Exclusionary Effects. Vol. 41. pp. 317–40. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)

Individuals identified as topic experts in the lead not used in body of article

Scott Bottles
Sy Adler
Jonathan Richmond

Top-cited source

Meanwhile, the most frequently cited source in this article is a non-peer-reviewed, self-published PDF from a former academic currently a licensed cosmetician and sole proprietress of La Bellissima Expert Lash & Brow in Portland, Oregon:

Bianco, Martha (1998). "Kennedy, 60 Minutes, and Roger Rabbit: Understanding Conspiracy-Theory Explanations of The Decline of Urban Mass Transit" (pdf). pp. 98–110. Retrieved 2008-09-23. {{cite web}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

Statements attributed:

"By 1930 most streetcar systems were aging and losing money. Service to the public was suffering; the Great Depression compounded this. Yellow Coach tried to persuade transit companies to replace streetcars with buses, but could not convince the power companies that owned the streetcar operations to motorize."
"GM decided to form a new subsidiary—United Cities Motor Transport (UCMT)—to finance the conversion of streetcar systems to buses in small cities. The new subsidiary made investments in small transit systems, in Kalamazoo and Saginaw, Michigan and in Springfield, Ohio where they were successful in conversion to buses."
"...was reorganized "for the purpose of taking over the controlling interest in certain operating companies engaged in city bus transportation and overland bus transportation" with loans from the suppliers and manufacturers."
"In 1939 Roy Fitzgerald, president of NCL, approached Yellow Coach Manufacturing, requesting additional financing for expansion..."
"...and the 1940s, raised funds for expansion from Firestone Tire, Federal Engineering, a subsidiary of Standard Oil of California (now Chevron Corporation), Phillips Petroleum (now part of ConocoPhillips), GM, Mack Trucks (now a subsidiary of Volvo)."
"Adding to the confusion, Snell had already joined the Senate Judiciary Committee’s Subcommittee on Antitrust and Monopoly as a staff member."
"The 1988 film Who Framed Roger Rabbit, vectors the folktale about the decline of the Pacific Electric."

52.56.109.198 (talk) 18:41, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

erm.....so? Ms. Bianco made a career change; how would that invalidate her past work? Despite your frequent labeling of her work as "self-published" it was clearly written ex officio. Anmccaff (talk) 18:55, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

IP editor (HughD?), it would be best if you would create an account or use your existing account before making such extensive edits to the article. Springee (talk) 14:10, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Self-published websites used as sources for statements in Misplaced Pages voice

Despite the generous availability of reliable secondary and tertiary sources, as yet unused in this article, this article relies on self-published websites of transportation and history enthusiasts:

52.56.111.224 (talk) 16:59, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Strack is -the- historian for certain aspects of Utah rail, and is reliably published.

Bianco is also reliably published; her own site is used for the reader's convenience.

Detroit transit is, as mentioned before, a convenience cite for published work.

The Yumpu piece is usable to document a particular view, I suppose, but it'd be nicer if it had an author and an original source.

Coachbuilt has been found reliable for its own work on several occasions, and is only being used as a convenience cite.

1134 speaks for itself.

Historyisaweapon is also being used as a convenience cite.

Convenience links are an accepted practice for access to material otherwise difficult for readers and researchers to get to. Anmccaff (talk) 18:22, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

This article's tone or style may not reflect the encyclopedic tone used on Misplaced Pages. Relevant discussion may be found on the talk page. See Misplaced Pages's guide to writing better articles for suggestions. (January 2017) (Learn how and when to remove this message)

IP Guy, would you care to give an example or three? Anmccaff (talk) 18:29, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

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