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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Arabs was copied or moved into Arab identity with this edit on 10 December 2016. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Arabs was copied or moved into Demographics of the Arab League with this edit on 21 December 2016. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Ethnic groups or not

@Aṭlas: Is "Arab" categorized by race, language, culture, dress, color skin or nationality? The second question is, when could someone consider him/her self as an Arab?

Arabs is an ethnic group. A group of people where the majority of them share the same language, traditions, history, and maybe the same set of religion structure if you may add that as well.

Middle east.123

North Africa.1

• Maghrebis in Maghreb (c. 110 million), including Berbers in Mauritania, Morocco (including Western Sahara), Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya (c. 30 million).

Berbers are an ethnic group yes but there's a big difference between Berber groups so that makes them a panethnicity.??--RabeaMalah (talk) 11:45, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

@Soupforone: An ethnic group is a category of people who identify with each other based on similarities, such as common ancestral, language, social, cultural or national experiences. I don't know why you are objecting to this?.--RabeaMalah (talk) 08:44, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

RabeaMalah, if by ethnic group you mean the Gulf Bedouins, then they indeed constitute an ethnic group since they share a common ancestral origin (Berbers do as well for the same reason). However, it's more nuanced vis-a-vis other Arab world populations since they are instead of heterogeneous ancestral heritage, but are culturally and linguistically affiliated. This is why I think panethnicity is felicitous. Aṭlas, RabeaMalah makes a good point about how an ethnic group shares a common ancestry, culture and language. What parameter, then, do you think would work best? Soupforone (talk) 17:52, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Arabs are an assemblies of people of different ancestors origin and religious background and historical identities. So any one can become an arab simply by adopting arab culture, speaking arabic... RabeaMalah, you just Show me that you want only to impose your point of view as you did in the arabic wikipedia claiming that "Arabs are an ethnic group par excellence" and removing this reference (War of Visions: Conflict of Identities in the Sudan), and you want to apply this in the english wikipedia. I'm totally agree with soupforone's definition of panethnicity and ethnicity and I think it's appropriate to leave page as it is. --Aṭlas (talk) 19:42, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

@Soupforone:, if by ethnic group you mean the Gulf Bedouins, If those living in Arab countries are the zombie race, other Arab world populations.. they Berbers, Kurds, Turks, Iranians, Azeris, Yezidis, Circassians, Shabaks, Turcomans, Romani, Chechens, Kawliya, Mhallami, Samaritans, Why don't they tell themselves they are Arabs and they have a culture and language practice in the Arab world. Go and ask any habitat in the Arab world said to him, What is your race will answer you is Arab, Anyway the Arabs know this well, not you or any user defines the human race, finally you're on Misplaced Pages everyone does what he wants...

@Aṭlas:

1. People of different ancestors origin and religious background and historical identities. (this is your opinion), sorry if you're a scientist in the area of race and humanity, this is something else.
2. any one can become an arab simply by adopting arab culture, speaking arabic. ok ok i was born in Geneva, Switzerland, their first language is French, my culture is Swiss, my Nationality is Swiss but my father and mother from Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt and Morocco, so Am I the Swiss or Arab?.
3. You just Show me that you want only to impose your point of view as you did in the arabic wikipedia, No I don't want this, before I do anything in Arabic Misplaced Pages has been a discussion on this.

@Aṭlas: @Soupforone: Definition of Ethnic group and the List of contemporary ethnic groups in Misplaced Pages is a category of people who identify with each other based on similarities, such as common ancestral, language, social, cultural or national experiences.

• French people are an ethnic group in Misplaced Pages?? but the Maghrebis and Africans number about 10 million, and that other ethnic groups
• Turkish people are a Turkic ethnic group in Misplaced Pages? but there ethnic groups include Albanians, Arabs, Assyrians, Azeris, Bosniaks, Circassians, Georgians, Lazs, Persians, Pomaks (Bulgarians), Yazidis and Roma.. The Kurds, a distinct ethnic group, are the largest non-Turkic ethnicity, around 18–25 percent of the population.--HailesG (talk) 07:32, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Panethnicity is a political neologism used to group together related ethnic groups. The term was coined in 1992 by Yen Espiritu to refer to the group of Asian Americans.

Also there is a very large explanation about Arab identity is unmatched in all ethnic groups in Misplaced Pages--HailesG (talk) 07:57, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Please do not alter the panethnicity/ethnicity parameter without consensus. Anyway, as I and Aṭlas explained above, the claim that Arabs are a Semitic ethnic group native to the Arabian peninsula is only true for the local Bedouins and their urban congeners. Most other populations in the Arab world instead descend from other, (non-Arabic) Afro-Asiatic-speaking ancestral groups that adopted Arabic language and genealogies with the spread of Islam. This is why the Arabian ancestral component is still primarily concentrated in the Arabian peninsula among the Bedouin . Ergo, Arabs are a panethnicity; a confederation of genealogically affiliated ethnic groups . On the other hand, French, Turks, Persians, Albanians, Georgians, Kurds, Roma, etc. are each ethnic groups since their native constituents share recent ancestral heritage. Soupforone (talk) 17:07, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

seriously!! you look at the haplogroup. In each country, city, village, town and family are different races, there is not a specific race for all races at the end we are all human beings from Adam and Eve. I am an Arab from Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt, Morocco. I know myself as an Arab from my grandfather and my father, an Arab is belong to the same culture, religion, language, background, nationalism etc. I will stay repeat the definition of Ethnic group is a category of people who identify with each other based on similarities, such as common ancestral, language, social, cultural or national experiences. So this definition applies perfectly to the Arabs. Arabs belonging to Y-Chromosome → Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) J1 J1 , Haplogroup J-M172 J2, Haplogroup E-M215 (Y-DNA) E1b1b.

• Colleague Aṭlas told you that he doesn't know much about ethnic group--HailesG (talk) 12:46, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

I understand, but notice that it also indicates that ethnic groups, derived from the same historical founder population, often continue to speak related languages and share a similar gene pool. As such, the various populations of the Arab world are technically more of a confederation of different ethnic groups than a singular entity. Anyway, you do have a point with the haplogroups since both the J and E1b1b clades have been found in ancient and modern samples in the area. Soupforone (talk) 15:45, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Actually your answer is unconvincing and warranted, Arabs aren't panethnicity, the Americans are the only Panethnicity, because in the United States there are all ethnicities of the world. This applies to the Americans, Mexicans, Peruvians, Argentines, Dominicans and Spaniards. So I reject totally this term which is only present in the (Arabs article) in the English Misplaced Pages.

• derived from the same historical founder population!: Arabs come from the Arabian peninsula and the Badiyat al Sham (Syrian desert)
• Often continue to speak related languages!: Are the Arabs speak Indian? if you mean the dialects all languages of the world have dialects, in every city in the Arab world there is the dialect but we understand all the dialects.
• Share a similar gene pool!: Arabs several groups such as the Berber groups and Kurds communities each group within them, and they do not understand each other. (I have friends Berbers from Morocco and Algeria, and Kurds from Syria, Iraq, Turkey and Iran — their culture, their language, and their backgrounds are different from each other even the forms are different from each).
• haplogroups since both the J and E1b1b clades have been found in ancient and modern samples in the area!: all haplogroups have been found in ancient and modern samples, what's New?. Some of the Arab groups have genes non-Arab I agree, but Arab is the dominant, simply there are not ethnic group has a pure genes 100 %. See for example: Genetic history of Europe--HailesG (talk) 22:59, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Well, Berbers are linguistically, culturally and genetically closely related, so inapt example . For the panethnicity, please see here ; Aṭlas is quite right. Also, note that not all territories in Western Asia are Arab states. Soupforone (talk) 17:52, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

How do you accuse all Arab World are Arabized??? I want someone else to talk, you have ethnic tendencies against Arabs??. You bring me the sources of your butt, but I brought a lot of sources, but you ignore this. It is clear that this talk has become personal. You reject any source and ignore. You are convinced only in your thoughts according to the sources you bring.

• All North African countries member of the Arab League and the Arab Maghreb Union

I feel in the forum and not in Misplaced Pages, the most of your answers are not convincing, are just personal thoughts. I can bring you a million source prove my words but you will ignore all because you have a personal reason.

(I'm going to change panethnicity to ethnic groups with sources to prove this, if you stayed ignored my discussion and resources)--HailesG (talk) 03:05, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Most (not all) populations in the Arab world are indeed Arabized. The Tadmouri biocultural analysis above explains why this is :

The term “Arabs” indicates a panethnicity of peoples of various ancestral origins, religious backgrounds, and historic identities. It is possible to define the geographical area inhabited by Arabs using one of the two following approaches:

(1) The linguistic approach is a relaxed definition and it includes all populations speaking the Arabic language and living in a vast area extending from south of Iran in the east to Morocco in the west including parts in the south-east of Asia Minor, East, and West Africa.

(2) The political definition of Arabs is more conservative as it only includes those populations residing in 23 Arab States, namely: Algeria, Bahrain, Comoros, Djibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates (UAE), and Yemen.

Ergo, that all North African territories are Arab League member states, whereas only some West Asian territories are, does not invitiate that the various populations in the Arab world constitute a panethnicity. For the rest, please see Aṭlas' explanation and the civility policy. Soupforone (talk) 03:16, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

All the world knows that the Arabs are an ethnic group, i can bring you a million source prove this, but I am convinced that you will not agree because you have a solid ideas.--HailesG (talk) 03:42, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Also see the Charter of the Arab League. Soupforone (talk) 03:51, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Arabs have settled all over the area that extends from the Atlantic Ocean to the Arabian Gulf. If you believe there are genetically pure people in this whole area you are totally wrong, even the Arabs of the Gulf have mixed with other people throughout the Islamic Golden ages. Yet, Modern People in thos area do see themselves as Arabs despite their Mixed Origins, apart from some other peoples and Minorities that Also inhabit this area (Syriacs, Turkman, Berber, Armenians). No ones tells or determines who is who, as long as the Arabs themselves see that the people in this whole area are a single race or a single race with mixed background, then that's it--] (]) 06:54, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

That was actually not my assertion. What I indicated was that Arabs are a confederation of different ethnic groups (a panethnicity) with similar genealogical traditions rather than a single ethnic group with one foundational genetic heritage. You basically just acknowledged the same thing. Please also note that the populations of the Arab world are distinct from the Arabid race. Soupforone (talk) 15:44, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Comment Arabs indeed constitute an ethnic group, just as Berbers, Kurds, Turkmens and Armenians do. This should not be controversial. I understand Soupforone's argument about the modern-day Arabs' mixed ancestry. This is also not controversial. However, Arab tribes migrated in mass waves from the Arabian Peninsula throughout the Fertile Crescent in pre-Islamic and post-Islamic times, and throughout the Nile Valley and North Africa in the decades and centuries after Islam. Some remained ethnically isolated or supplanted non-Arabs, some intermarried with the non-Arab population, while at the same time many non-Arabs became culturally Arabized over the centuries or during the 20th-century. It's true that if you asked this question 100 or 200 years ago, an Arab would be defined as a member of an Arab tribe or a settled person who descended from an Arab tribe. However, since the late 19th or early-mid 20th century, the Arab is defined as someone whose mother tongue is Arabic and, more importantly, self-identifies as an Arab. It's also not strange for an Arab to have multiple identities that take into account regional or national affiliations such as Egyptians. Today the people of the Arab world who are not Berbers, Kurds, Turkmens, Armenians, Assyrians, Nubians, Copts, Beja, etc, would be considered ethnic Arabs. It should also be noted that Berbers and Kurds themselves are ancestrally-mixed but that doesn't negate the fact that they constitute their own ethnic group, which as stated by others above, is determined by shared language, self-identification, and common socio-cultural experiences and values. --Al Ameer (talk) 21:00, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Arabs are an ethnic group?? the answer is yes, but how? because the ethnic group is a human population whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry. ethnic group are also usually united by common cultural, behavioural, linguistic, or religious practices or a community or population made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent. Watch this video. See the Arabs genetics. There are genes non-Arab among Arabs, but Arab genes is dominant / All ethnic groups have mixed genes. Conclusion: ethnic group such as the family, bearing its name, culture, language, background, descent or ancestry.--HailesG (talk) 21:33, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

HailesG, please do not duplicate/copy and paste the y-dna material. It is already summarized under the genetics area; the internal link-thrus to Y-DNA haplogroups by populations of Near East and Y-DNA haplogroups by populations of North Africa show the population-specific frequencies. Moreover, please note that per WP:TC, fixed tags should not be retagged. Please also be aware that the existence of haplogroup J in a population does not necessarily imply recent Arabian influence. For instance, in Northeast Africa, the clade appears to have had a more ancient presence since by far its highest local frequencies (~80%) have been found among certain isolated Omotic-speaking groups in southern Ethiopia, who have had little-to-no interaction with Muslim proselytizers/Bedouins. Soupforone (talk) 16:22, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Al-Ameer, indeed; an ethnic macrocosm. This is why Egyptians and Bahrainis, although both Arab world populations, are also obviously different ethnic groups. Ergo, it is really more of a traditional confederation than anything. Soupforone (talk) 16:22, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Soupforone, this is why Kabyles and Tuaregs, although both are a Berber, are also obviously different ethnic groups. it is really is your only thought in the world. Why did you choose the comparison between Bahrainis and Egyptians? Why not the Egyptians and the Palestinians. Egyptian and Palestinian Arabs, are linguistically, culturally and genetically closely related. In Palestine the most common Haplogroup is J and E1B1B. (55.2%) are J, (20.3%) are E1B1B, (8.4%) are R1b, (6.3%) are I, (7%) are G, (1.4%), (1.4%) are R1a and T. In Egypt the most common Haplogroup is E1B1B and J. E1b1b (36.7%), J (32%), R1b (4.1%), E1b1a (2.8%) and I (0.7%). However all this is not important, What is important is like what is said @Al Ameer son: ethnic group, which as stated by others above, is determined by shared language, self-identification, and common socio-cultural experiences and values.. Misplaced Pages itself definition that too (Ethnic group) and please don't ignore my comments?? (ethnic group is a human population whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry. ethnic group are also usually united by common cultural, behavioural, linguistic, or religious practices or a community or population made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent. Watch this video. There are genes non-Arab among Arabs, but Arab genes is dominant / All ethnic groups have mixed genes) In brief, I am an Arab ethnic just like you're Berber ethnic. (Please understand). Otherwise we will resort to administrators in order to end this and go to vote.--HailesG (talk) 19:15, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

@Soupforone: @HailesG: Without getting too caught up in genetics and shared ancestries (because few ethnic groups are "pure" or homogenous), the Arabs do form an ethnic group of their own due to shared language, history and self-identity just as Berbers, Turkmens and Kurds do. The latter groups are all quite ancestrally and culturally diverse, just as Arabs are. You are asserting that "it is really more of a traditional confederation than anything" but this is your opinion, and indeed an educated opinion. However, it is not your assertion to make. It's for the Arabic-speaking people who self-identify as Arabs to make. We should not get sucked into a debate about what constitutes an ethnic group. Let this be determined by a consensus of the sources and the Arab people's view of self. --Al Ameer (talk) 20:41, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: I'm also absolutely convinced that ethnic group are: a community or population made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent. Not by homogenous nor genetics: My sister and I had the analysis of the DNA, there was a big difference between us but we belong to the same family. Look at this bullshit!! → See here and here --HailesG (talk) 21:56, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Family relations are hardly comparable. Anyway, "people" is an adequate compromise; I'm alright with that. Soupforone (talk) 03:45, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Soupforone, I want to tell you even the brothers of their genes is not 100% identical. People only until the talk ends.--HailesG (talk) 17:19, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Al Ameer, ethnic groups do indeed share genealogical tradition, language and history. Another key criterion of an ethnic group (as indicated on that wiki; not my opinion) is that they share a similar gene pool. This is the situation with Berbers, but not with all of the diverse populations of the Arab world. Anyway, your point is understood. Soupforone (talk) 03:45, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Arab isn't an ethnic group. The equivalent of Arab is the situation with the Romance people, we group people together based on a linguistic association that was left with Latin and the Romans. People from the MENA region have very distinct cultures, very distint looks, very distinct problems, etc. I say this as an Arabo-Syrianist of Lebanese background.

GoulGoul1 (talk) 23:41, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

@Soupforone: and @GoulGoul1: As far as ethnicity is concerned, Arabs share the same culture and genealogical traits more than the French do. The languages in France include Breton, Corsican, Basque, Alsacian, and French. Yet, the majority in each of these groups identify as French. Actually, Arabs share more genetics than those people, and therefore it makes perfect sense to consider them one group. Other users have clarified this already with I do not know of any ethnic group that did not have an "exchange of genetics" with other ethnic groups. Cheers. ] (]) 01:51, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

GoulGoul1 We are talking about the Arabs not about Assyrians. There's nothing like Arabo-Syrianist, Arabo-Phoenician or Arabo-Canaanite. There are very few people in Lebanon like you, but the reality of community do not support you. I'm also a Lebanese and my mother are Maronite. Constitution of Lebanon Lebanon is Arab in its identity and in its affiliation. . Regards--HailesG (talk) 02:12, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

HailesG Where did I ever mention the Assyrians ? I mean Syrianist as in Syria, the country. I'm not talking about pre Islamic populations. That's how I call my ideology. Pan Arabism and Lebanism/Phoenicianism tend to be extreme ideologies which are both non satisfying. (as far as I'm concerned) I'm not anti-Arab. GoulGoul1 (talk) 03:02, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Amr ibn Kulthoum French is a nation, a nationality. Arabs is just a word which bases itself on a linguistic association. A better comparison would be the one I already gave, the one with the Romance peoples or the Germanic distribution. Do I regard myself as an Arab? Of course, more so because of personal familial reasons. Do I consider it a part of my heritage ? Of course, like I consider the pre Islamic one to be a part of my heritage. Do I think it has to have any political implications ? (ex : pan Arab Ummah) No, I don’t. Do I care more about other peoples from the MENA region compared to someone from Cyprus or Iran ? No, I don’t. Either case, what you said is quite dishonest. There’s a clear, very clear difference between someone from Sudan, Morocco and the Lebanon. I’m myself diaspora, so I actually get to ”taste” different populations from different parts of the world. We clearly don’t have the same culture. The cuisine is clearly different, the dances are clearly different, even by linguistic standards I have a hard time understanding a North African person. Is “culture” some buzzword that is added to make the list look longer ?GoulGoul1 (talk) 03:15, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

@GoulGoul1: Please read the entire talk and you will understand what we mean, we want an end to the talk that he became a nuisance for me, a month ago and we repeat the same thing, so you can create a new section.--HailesG (talk) 03:41, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

@HailesG: I'm also tired of this conversation, this is why I'm not a pan Arabist anymore.GoulGoul1 (talk) 04:02, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

It is actually because the Arabic language and culture spread so recently (i.e., only a few centuries ago with Islam) that the populations in the Arab world share closer cultural and genealogical traditions. However, there is far more genetic diversity in the Arab world because the populations descend from various, different pre-Arabian groups. For instance, far southern peninsula groups like the Mahra, who have the highest frequencies of the paternal haplogroup J, yet they don't speak Arabic. This is perhaps not all that strange since the Proto-Arabic language itself is only attested from the 9th century onwards, which is several millenia after the earliest inscriptions in ancient Egyptian, Sumerian and Babylonian. Soupforone (talk) 04:02, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

@Soupforone:There were several languages in the Peninsula besides the Arabic ones... And the Arabs and Arabic language weren't necessarily limited to the Peninsula in pre Islamic times. Either case, Arabic spread faster and at different times depending of the region we're talking about. Semitic speaking regions achieved a quite quick shift compared to let's say Egypt. Even in the case of North Africa in areas like Morocco I think more than 10 % of the population is Berber speaking.GoulGoul1 (talk) 04:59, 11 December 2016 (UTC)::Again, please create a new section because you started talking about other peoples in the talk, and this is opposed to the idea of talk. (There is no official count the number of Berbers in Morocco or Algeria, but there are sources claim to make up 30 to 40% of the population of Morocco).--HailesG (talk) 06:31, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

GoulGoul1, indeed. Soupforone (talk) 16:01, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

@Soupforone: Turks, Germans, French, Portuguese, and other European peoples for you are an ethnic groups??. In Misplaced Pages yes they are an ethnic groups, you said to @Al Ameer son: :Another key criterion of an ethnic group (as indicated on that wiki; not my opinion) is that they share a similar gene pool. Do you think the Arabs don't share a similar gene pool?. Majority of Arab genes are J and E1b1b far from the origin of the gene.--HailesG (talk) 07:46, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

@HailesG: The fact that I can show you several people IRL who would get a heart attack if they were to be associated with some people from the MENA region is enough indications that an internet discussion about this subject is useless. Genes or not, people don't associate with each other on the basis of having a related language. You have more chances of convincing them they're related through Sunni Islam than over a confused ideology.GoulGoul1 (talk) 16:06, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

GoulGoul1 My father and mother have different genes, me and my sister as well, that means we're not a family?. (Even among families there are different genes). For me an Ethnic group are a community or population made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent. There is a difference between the ethnic group and race, ethnicity is often assumed to be somewhat more of a cultural identity of a group, often based on shared ancestry, language and cultural tradition, while race is assumed to be strictly a biological classification, based on DNA and bone structure.--HailesG (talk) 01:28, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

@HailesG: But ... we're not the same people. (I know the differenc between ethncitiy and race) Your comparison with family is at best an insult. We are not the same ethnic group. We never were. You have a better argument of unity by arguing for the revival of an Islamic Caliphate than your current argument. You claim we have a common cultural background. Then go ahead, tell us what is this common cultural background. Honestly, I don't know how I can explain the evident. Like I already said, I met several North Africans, Egyptians, etc. and I clearly feel no link with these people. They have a distinct culture of their own, with their own cuisine, sayings, etc. that are clearly distinct from mine the same way that Iran and Turkey are distinct. I may share linguistical ties but as far as I'm concerned, I don't see why this should entail in any consequence. If you argued that Lebanon and Western Syria are very similar to each other, then I would agree. (and believe it or not, some Lebs, especially Maronites, reject such a notion)GoulGoul1 (talk) 05:08, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

HailesG, most of the E1b1b subclades and many of the J subclades that are present in the Arab world areas outside of the Arabian peninsula have an ancient presence. These haplogroups have been found in Neolithic fossils in the Near East. Thus, they aren't necessarily due to the recent spread with Islam of the Arabic language and culture. Soupforone (talk) 17:04, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Soupforone You did not respond to a question. Your answer is very far from my question, please re-read the question. I said far from the origin of the gene, tell me why these peoples are an ethnic groups and the Arabs isn't an ethnic group, take a look at the map, this shows that an ethnic group is not need to be identical genes 100%. All the peoples of the world have mixed genes. I don't care about genes.--HailesG (talk) 00:33, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

HailesG, I already answered your ethnic group and family question. Population genetics is not the same thing as personal genomics. Of course you and your relatives will have some different genes - all humans do. Nonetheless, your immediate kin will obviously be your nearest genetic relations. Your grandparents will be close to you too, but not as close as your parents. This is because your grandparents constitute only one side of your family, whereas you inherited genes from both your parents. Your great-grandparents will be close to you as well, but not as close as your parents and grandparents for the same reason. Individuals within an ethnic group indeed don't have to be (and aren't) completely identical genetically. Nonetheless, if they truly are descended from the same forebears, they too will share an ancestral gene pool. Although this is always the situation, this heritage is just sometimes difficult to quantify due to the existence of an ancient ghost population(s). Soupforone (talk) 04:13, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Soupforone your point is understood. Again, why the Turkish_people#Genetics and the French_people#Genetics an ethnic groups and Arab isn't an ethnic group.--HailesG (talk) 04:33, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

HailesG Because the MENA region has never been and to this day doesn't consider itself of the same ethnic group. (and I clearly don't think of myself the same person as someone from NA) I don't even understand why you're so obsessed in trying to create a people where it doesn't exist. A political movement from the 19 th century, and which not everyone nec. subscribes to, doesn't suddenly create an ethnicity. GoulGoul1 (talk) 04:50, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

My comment is addressed to Soupforone so stop mixup.--HailesG (talk) 05:10, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

HailesG, please also see my explanation below. Soupforone (talk) 16:44, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

@Soupforone: @HailesG: @GoulGoul1: Excuse me for the late responses here. Soupforone, a shared gene pool is one of the criterion for an ethnic group, but not a required one. Our article on ethnic groups lists "common ancestry, language, social, cultural OR national experiences" as the criterion. It is not mandatory that an ethnic group fulfills all of these requirements. In response to GoulGoul, nobody is arguing that the entire MENA region belongs to one ethnic group. There are millions of Berbers, Kurds, Nubians, Turks, Iranians of all stripes, Turkmens, Caucasians of all stripes, and many more. What is being argued here is that the largest ethnic group in this region, i.e. those whose mother tongue and whose grandparents' mother tongue is Arabic, who self-identify as Arab, who feel an affinity, however loose, to the greater Arab national/regional aspirations, who have a shared history and shared origin traditions, also constitute an ethnic because of these and other factors. As I stated earlier, it is not strange for an Arab to have overlapping identities like "Arab, Maghrebi and Tunisian" or "Arab, Druze and Lebanese" for instance. And yes Arab nationalism had an enormous impact on consolidating the Arab identity in the 19th and 20th centuries, but nationalism did the same for Turks, Kurds, Germans, Italians, etc. And yes, there is a rich diversity of culture across the Arab spectrum even if we exclude obvious non-Arabs, but that doesn't preclude a shared Arab identity. In any case, I'm not opposed to referring to Arabs as a "people" as long this applies to other diverse groups of people such as the Berbers, Germans, French, etc. Otherwise, we are singling out the Arabs for invalid reasons. --Al Ameer (talk) 18:33, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: You think I didn't understand to what you were referring to ? I wasn't even talking about Berbers, Kurds or anything else. I was talking specifically about people who speak an Arabic language. Like I already explained, I see Arab the same way I see Romanic or Germanic, it's part of the local Levantine culture but I don't think it has any consequence in regards of any supposed MENA nation or that it should entail me adopting certain positions because of it. If I support the Palestinian cause, I support it as a local Levantine. Not because I'm of muslim background or because of any political ideology. Now, to answer your other points. You claim we have a shared history ? Our history didn't begin with an Islamic Caliphate neither did it end with it. That's the maximum extant of our shared history. You claim we have shared traditions ? Like what? Seriously. You can't seriously expect me to take this affirmation that ALL the 23 members of the Arab somehow are all similar. Of course, we share things with our neighbours, if we were to comapre the Levant to let's say, Iraq. But homogenizing the way you're doing it is clearly wrong. Like I already said it, identity issues which relate to other MENA people is their problem, not mine. I don't oppose Arabism/Arab as part of the identity of my region. In regards of the nationalist movements of the 19 th century, the only relevant zones were limited to the Mashriq. Finally, your comparison with the French, German, etc. is a bad one. A better equivalent would be to categorize all speakers of Romance, Germanic, etc. languages as people of the same ethnic group.GoulGoul1 (talk) 18:52, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't think we're too far apart in our view, but the major flaw with your equivalence to the Romantic/Latin situation is that those people don't identify as part of a greater Romantic nation, while native Arabic speaking people across the Arab world do view themselves as Arabs (even if in addition to their national identity). Just like you and I, who are Levantines/Lebanese/Palestinian, also identify as Arabs, there are millions of people in Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, etc who identify as Arabs and are considered Arabs by the state and an abundance, perhaps even a consensus, of Arab and Western sources. --Al Ameer (talk) 20:51, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Well, the ethnic group wiki indeed indicates that common ancestry, language, social, cultural or national experiences are criteria. A shared gene pool is inherent in that common ancestry. However, unlike the similar genealogical traditions, common ancestry happens to be the one aspect that is generally not a given across the Arab world. Other aspects that differ are the various pre-Islamic histories, cultures and native languages. Nonetheless, most if not all the Arab League states do have constitutional clauses stipulating that they are Arab territories, so at least there is some political consistency. Soupforone (talk) 03:37, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: How is it a flaw ? The idea of the Arab nation bases itself on nothing more than linguistical considerations and the idea that some supposed unity was lost (something which never existed in the first place) Most Europeans of Romance background consider the Romans to be the "father" somehow of their modern day nation and did have a considerable influence on who they are today. That's how I see myself in regards of my region and that's the most realistic approach towards the national question in regards of our future. I don't see how somehow identifying as an Arab in Morocco suddenly makes him "ethnically similar" to me considering that I barely can understand a Moroccan or have any clue about anything whatsoever of Morocco besides Islamic history from the Umayyad period. See it this way, in Syria, the second biggest party is the SSNP. Who do you think composes this party ? Levantine Arabic speakers. How do you explain that people can adopt such positions that clearly go against the pan Arabists beliefs ? It's not like they were composed only of people from Ma'loula or something of this sort. (Not that Saadeh was anti-Arab, but he had a different view of what is a nation.) Also, how do you explain that the least pan Arab forces who actively tried to destroy the movement is now in major control of the Arab league ? Anyway, a part of my family is originally from a tribe from Southern Syria and I very much look like an Arab myself, I have my sympathies with Arabism, just in case you thought I was a typical Phalangist Leb or something of this sort. But I think we have a different approach in this regards.GoulGoul1 (talk) 03:41, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

@Soupforone: I don't know why you are opposed to the idea of ethnic group?, if the Arabs themselves agree on this, this strange, Arabs worldwide classified as they are an ethnic group, Arabs are mixed genes yes, this is true not only Arabs but all the peoples of the world, Arabs are a race not true, but an ethnic group yes it is, Arab states define their territories and their peoples that they are an Arab, according to their constitutions (except, North African countries, especially Morocco and Algeria because there is a large presence of the Berbers) also the Governments of the world, CIA classified as Arabs are an ethnic group. Eventually, all humans related to each other.--HailesG (talk) 06:24, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

@GoulGoul1: Please if you're Lebanese or Syrian, go there and say that they are not Arabs, Your problem is bigger than this issue, related to Arabism, Arab nationalism and your identity.--HailesG (talk) 07:41, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

@HailesG: Clearly I'm talking to a wall. Either way, even if I decided I agree with your ideas, you still have several thousands of people you would have to convince in real life that they're somehow indistinguishable from all other arabic languages speakers. Clearly, if we arrive to a consensus on the Internet, this consensus hasn't been achieved in real life.GoulGoul1 (talk) 16:18, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

@GoulGoul1: me, Error in Template:Reply to: Username not given., and @Al Ameer son:, We agree that Arabs are an ethnic group, from the people of the Arab world who are not Berbers, Kurds, Turkmens, Armenians, Assyrians, Nubians, Copts, Beja, etc, would be considered ethnic Arabs. It should also be noted that Berbers and Kurds themselves are ancestrally-mixed but that doesn't negate the fact that they constitute their own ethnic group, which as stated by others above, is determined by shared language, self-identification, and common socio-cultural experiences and values. We're not saying that Arab genes are pure. I don't care about the gene that's ridiculous, we're all human beings from Adam and Eve.--HailesG (talk) 16:56, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

@HailesG: shared language, not satisfied considering the big disglosia problem in the MENA region and that people have to resort to non Semitic languages to be able to speak between each other. "self-identification" the Arab legacy constitutes a cultural which added itself upon pre exisisting ones, the same way the Romans and Germanic tribes did with other situations. I don't see this as an ethnicity. "socio-cultural" How is the social situation in Tunisia comparable to the one in Lebanon ? Lebanon is a multi sectarian society, we have our own problems. Culturally speaking, we don't listen to NA music or have any sort of relationship from which we experience NA culture. In fact, you'll notice this among NA nationalists, they'll always claim that Arabism is heavily dominated by the East becaue the cultural input is only one way. Cuisine ? Different. Dances ? Different. Spoken language ? Different. etc.GoulGoul1 (talk) 20:17, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

HailesG, there is no globally consistent governmental scheme for Arabs. The only such consistency, and the one that actually matters most, is that of the Arab territories themselves . Anyway, I think GoulGoul1's Romance languages analogy is apt since, before the recent spread of the Arabic language and culture with Islam, most native populations in the Arab world spoke other Afroasiatic languages and had different cultural traditions. People therefore seems most neutral. Soupforone (talk) 16:42, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Soupforone Stop running away from some of the comments, you just take what you want to comment that's what you're doing from the beginning, when I say government, I mean ethnic classification for States, for your source I mean the states themselves, not nationalities.--HailesG (talk) 17:17, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

@Soupforone: The article on ethnic group indicates that any of those shared characteristics (language, ancestry, socio-cultural experience, etc) could constitute an ethnic group, not necessarily all of them. And GoulGoul's analogy is certainly not apt, because Romanians, Italians and Frenchmen all see each other as quite distinct from one another and their languages are not dialects, but distinct languages with a shared Latin root. Most French people are not going to identify as both French and Roman, while you will find millions of Egyptians and Syrians who identify as both Egyptian/Syrian and Arab.

@GoulGoul1: You are conflating politics and pan-Arabism with Arab ethnicity and this discussion. You may not see any similarity with a Tunisian and that's fine, but a Tunisian who says he's Arab and a Syrian who says he's Arab, are both Arabs. One of them may eat couscous and the other hummus, but they still identify as Arab and speak Arabic as their mother tongue, ergo they're both Arabs. Nobody is arguing that the Arabs are not a diverse people. Certainly they are. A person from Nazareth has plenty of differences with someone from Gaza, and may even find difficulty in understanding his dialect, but they're both still Palestinians and both still Arab. We're not imposing an identity on a people. --Al Ameer (talk) 19:28, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: I still don't see how this supports your original assertion, namely : How is a Tunisian and a Syrian of the same ethnic stock ? Also, what's your opinion on the disglosia situation in the MENA region ? How come I have an easier time talking with a Maghrebi in English than I do in Arabic ? Also, can you tell me why the SNPP is the second biggest party in Syria after the Ba'ath ? Most importantly : Why do pan Arabists get so heated up when we say that there'a a problem with the linguistical situation in the MENA region ? Why are they so threatened when we (and even experts) claim that something is wrong ?GoulGoul1 (talk) 20:03, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Honestly, I feel like I've said what needs to be said. I don't know if a Syrian and a Tunisian are of the same ethnic "stock". "Stock" implies a shared ancestry and there may not be a shared ancestry between a Syrian and a Tunisian. Shared ancestry is not a strong point in deciding the Arab ethnicity since few Arabs truly know their ancestral roots anyway, and those who do often make up some connection to an Arab tribe. Shared language and self-identification, and to an certain extent, shared socio-cultural experience and nationalism, form the pillars of Arab ethnicity. What about diglossia? People in every village in the Galilee have their own little dialect, let alone people from entirely different subregions of the Arab world. Furthermore, I already stated that it's not strange for Arabs to embrace overlapping identities. I'm not getting dragged into a political discussion about the SSNP and the Ba'ath. I know plenty about both, but what does that have to do with this article? Again, you have the notion that this is a discussion about pan-Arabism and regionalism, when it is not. With respect, by doing this you are distracting from the subject matter and wasting time. --Al Ameer (talk) 20:24, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Al Ameer, I realize that common ancestry is one criterion. It is the first enumerated because it is the most important one of all. This is why, for example, when an individual is ethnically of z stock, what is meant is that this person has actual z ancestors. Thus, an ethnically Egyptian person would have actual ancient Egyptian forebears. If a person is not ethnically of z stock, he/she does not ancestrally belong to the z ethnic group. He/she has instead been acculturated into that population (i.e., Arabized in this situation). That is the crux of it. Soupforone (talk) 03:14, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

@Soupforone: Yes, but a millenia of cultural Arabization, including through the 20th century doesn't invalidate the Arab ethnicity in Egypt. The majority of Egyptians have been speaking Arabic as their mother tongue since the period before Saladin. Most identify as Arabs, even if second to an Egyptian identity, and have been the center of Arab politics and culture for centuries. Unless I'm mistaken, having shared ancestry (significant as it is and historical tribal Arab/native mixing aside) isn't the "make or break" characteristic of ethnicity. --Al Ameer (talk) 04:02, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Those are valid points. The thing is, the Arabian language/culture, although now well-established, is but one of various foreign traditions that have held sway over the centuries in the Nile Valley. It was preceded by the Romans, the Sasanian/Persian dynasty, and other polities. At one time, during the Ptolemaic Kingdom, Greek was actually the official language of the Egyptian state. Nonetheless, Egyptians have remained ethnically connected to the predynastic Egyptians through it all. So although a population may come to share a common culture or language, without shared ancestors, it is really more of a culture group than an ethnic group. Soupforone (talk) 15:11, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

@Soupforone: However, the Egyptians are an ethnic group in Misplaced Pages, the Turkish people one of most peoples mixed with Eastern and Western peoples during the reign of the Ottoman Empire, but are also an ethnic group in Misplaced Pages. Germans are a Germanic ethnic group native to Central Europe, who share a common German ancestry, culture and history. German is the shared mother tongue of a substantial majority of ethnic Germans, Italians are a nation and ethnic group native to Italy who share a common Italian culture, ancestry and speak the Italian language as a mother tongue, they also have a great mixture with the European peoples and other peoples. I don't understand why you go away!?, @Al Ameer son: already answered your ethnic group (a shared gene pool is one of the criterion for an ethnic group, but not a required one. Our article on ethnic groups lists "common ancestry, language, social, cultural OR national experiences" as the criterion. It is not mandatory that an ethnic group fulfills all of these requirements.) List of contemporary ethnic groups→ There has been constant debate over the classification of ethnic groups. Membership of an ethnic group tends to be associated with shared cultural heritage, ancestry, history, homeland, language or dialect, the term culture specifically including aspects such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, etc. By the nature of the concept, ethnic groups tend to be divided into ethnic subgroups, which may themselves be or not be identified as independent ethnic groups depending on the source consulted).--HailesG (talk) 16:46, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

HailesG: Turkish, German and Italian individuals will genetically coalesce with other members of their respective ethnic groups, regardless of what haplogroup each person bears. The reason for this is because, as kinsmen, the individuals share actual recent ancestors. Also note that sharing a common gene pool obviously means sharing common ancestors. After all, an individual inherits his/her genes from his/her actual forebears. Soupforone (talk) 04:02, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

You are again ignored the entire comment and looked at it in your way that sharing a common gene pool, and we're all on Misplaced Pages tell you that a shared gene pool is one of the criterion for an ethnic group, but not a required one. Common ancestry, language, social, cultural or national experiences" as the criterion. The Germans and Italians are an ethnic group in Misplaced Pages by who share a common culture, ancestry and speak the language as a mother tongue they didn't say that a shared gene pool. The issue is simple if you don't take it in your own way.--HailesG (talk) 19:04, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Actually, I did not suggest that a shared gene pool (and thus, common ancestry) was the only ethnic group criterion. I asserted that common ancestry was the most important one. Also, a person will obviously share a gene pool with his/her own actual ancestors (see ancestor). Soupforone (talk) 21:39, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: I'm tired of this debate, every day make up an excuse, I feel like I'm talking about the Arab-Israeli conflict, before he had no problem with the ancestors now has. I'll leave it to you.--HailesG (talk) 21:55, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

@Soupforone: I think we both understand each other's points, but we're not reaching any conclusion. Instead, we're more or less repeating the same arguments. An ethnic group doesn't have to fulfill the shared ancestry requirement, even though there is a high degree of shared genes between the Arab people due to Arabian tribal migrations and intermarriage. You say the Arabs were preceded by other rulers, but the Arabs, their language and many of their customs have remained until the present day; it's the "Arab Republic of Egypt", the "Syrian Arab Republic", the "Arab Maghreb Union", not the Roman or Persian. It's the Arab identity that has persisted. Anyway, to avoid continuing this back-and-forth that appears to be leading nowhere, we should move to an RfC, or start bringing in sources to determine what the scholarly and/or popular consensus is, if there is one. Thoughts? --Al Ameer (talk) 00:12, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Al Ameer, I understand. Just to be clear, though, those republics have only be called as such since the 20th century Pan-Arabism era. Much of the genetic affinities that exist between populations in the Arab world also predate the recent spread of the Arabic language and culture with Islam. The ancient Egyptians who built the pyramids were already biologically related to the pre-Islamic Arabs of the Gulf, but spoke a separate Afroasiatic language and had a different culture. It's actually these foundational roots that have persisted despite various later periods of foreign influence, as is evident with the extant Coptic language and culture. Anyway, you're right. This back and forth is pointless; let's give ethnic group a try. Common ancestry is the most important criterion therein, and since it is implied in the shared genealogical traditions, this could perhaps work. Soupforone (talk) 05:24, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

@Soupforone:And this is exactly why I don't take Misplaced Pages articles in regards of history or politics seriously. Honestly, the idea of an ethnic group that is all over the MENA region incredible, it's just incredible. I have a question to our pan Arabists on this article, how do you explain that there are loads and loads of people who fit in your ethnic category but would deny ever being related ethnically speaking to other Arabic speakers ? Being the same ethnic group implies we see each other as the same, I don't see myself the same as someone from another region if there's a clear ethnic or cultural difference or just based on linguistic considerations. Anyway, enjoy your "win" because that's the extant of where your fantasies will lay, on a Wiki article. Just don't be surprised when real life calls back and things don't work like you imagined them and there's a very simple reason to this : extreme ideologues tend to replace reality with their ideology. I already said what I had to say so I'm not going to repeat it at this point.GoulGoul1 (talk) 00:24, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Semitic people

Please take a look at the article on "Semitic people". It's an obsolete term. Doug Weller talk 20:42, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Please look at the archives of Talk:Semitic people. That article is a circular reference and a poor one at that.--Monochrome_Monitor 23:16, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Wealth and other activities

There is nothing on this article about their luxurious lifestyles, architecture, technology and even about gasoline business and terrorism. Why? Misplaced Pages is about neutrality. --79.75.63.99 (talk) 18:04, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

You seem to be very confused between shallow media stereotypes and the realities of the daily lives the great majority of Arabs. AnonMoos (talk) 14:05, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Genetics

I suggested the removal of all and add the Haplogroup distribution.--HailesG (talk) 19:35, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

That haplogroup distribution is basically synthesis. It is incongruent with the Centre for Arab Genomic Studies, which oversees all territories in the Arab League. It also makes various inaccurate claims, such as that the E1b1b and J paternal clades are comparably distributed in Egypt and Sudan. In actuality, this is only the situation vis-a-vis Lower Egypt. In Upper Egypt, the population instead primarily carries E1b1b-M215 ; and in the Siwa oasis, R1b has a higher presence among local Berbers . The maternal clades are also quite different. Therefore, the extant Y-DNA table link-throughs are more neutral and accurate. Soupforone (talk) 04:02, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

The intent is to add the genes peoples with the survival of genes definition.--HailesG (talk) 06:21, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

That makes no sense. Soupforone (talk) 16:01, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

as Arabians mixed with populations from East and South Asia, Arab are Indian, Chinese and Mongolians ? to Europe:likely and (Africa:alright). Can you explain to me? before everything take a look at this.--HailesG (talk) 07:19, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

The haplogroup distribution was synthesis and incorrect, as explained above. I have therefore corrected it with a more neutral and direct frequency table. Soupforone (talk) 17:04, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Your edits are a joke and had nothing to do with the article. Where the rest of the Arab peoples?, any neutral you speak?, i rely on a template Y-DNA haplogroups by populations of Near East and the articles of the Arab peoples. You must restore the old version which explains more, with modern sources. Are there genes from East and South Asia?, as Arabians (Humans) mixed with populations from East and South Asia to Europe and Africa. This is a big joke, there's no such thing as Arabs, but has become a global.--HailesG (talk) 00:54, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

HailesG, although it may be a challenge, do try and respect the civility policy. As for the notion that Arabians mixed with populations from East and South Asia to Europe and Africa, Monochrome Monitor originally asserted this (not me unfortunately). For what it's worth, the analysis does seem to indicate this . Soupforone (talk) 04:13, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

One source inadequate, there is not any gene among Arabs from East and South Asia. This text shouldn't be in the article, or should be in all ethnicities because all have mixed genes.--HailesG (talk) 05:02, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Do you have a source?--Monochrome_Monitor 16:20, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, you can look at this Y-DNA haplogroups by populations of Near East and Y-DNA haplogroups by populations of North Africa, look for place of origin and look at this Y-DNA haplogroups by populations of East and Southeast Asia there is a big difference between the genes.--HailesG (talk) 02:18, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

HailesG, what that analysis indicates is that, after migrations of Semitic tribes from the Arabian Peninsula, the spread of Islam in the 7th century, the Crusades and more recent population movements, Arabians are now genetically diverse due to intermarriages between Arab men and native women in east and south Asia, Europe and Africa. This seems only logical since the Arab proselytizers that settled in these particular areas were men, and most did not travel with women. Ergo, if/where there were any genetic exchanges, it was primarily between these Arab men and local women. Soupforone (talk) 16:44, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

I know this very well, I don't deny this but it was with the peoples of Western Asia and North Africa, there is not any gene among Arabs from East and South Asia. Most genes among Arabs from Western Asia and Africa.--HailesG (talk) 02:18, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Okay, I understand. Soupforone (talk) 03:37, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

HailesG, y-dna is just one uniparental marker and it is already more accurately summarized in the frequency table link-thrus and distribution maps. Ergo, please don't duplicate it in lieu of the mtDNA summary and ancestral component stuff. Soupforone (talk) 02:49, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Well but!, but its presence in Lebanese Christians (What does this mean).? There are four principal West Eurasian autosomal DNA components that characterize the populations in the Arab world: the Arabian, Levantine, Coptic and Maghrebi components. (What about this)?? among the non-Arabized Berber (description non-Berber population, they are Arabized it is racist) populations in the region?. The Maghrebi component diverged from the Coptic (What is that?)/ Ethio-Somali, Arabian and Levantine what is the difference? components prior to the Holocene. I objected to this, unreal (what are the sources that confirm this)?..--HailesG (talk) 03:50, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

They are four separate, but related West Eurasian ancestral components: Arabian , Levantine , Coptic/Ethio-Somali , and Maghrebi . Soupforone (talk) 04:04, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Sufism

Sufism is the mystical aspect of Islam rather than a sect or denomination. It is nonetheless widely adhered to in the Arab world. Soupforone (talk) 04:02, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Do you want to add it to the side of the Arab Muslim sects.? If that's what you want, it is an Islamic doctrine, but according to the Sufi vision is not a doctrine, but it is one of the three pillars of religion (Islam, faith, charity). But you can add it.--HailesG (talk) 05:34, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

I was alluding to the religion parameter in the infoxbox. Soupforone (talk) 16:01, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Geography

Parts of North Africa??. If we want political definition, the result will be (They primarily inhabit north Africa well as parts of Western Asia, because in West Asia, there are non-Arab countries: Armeniad, Azerbaijand, Cyprusd, Georgiad, Iran, Israel, Turkey. While all the North African countries is an Arab: Algeria, Egypt, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Sudan, Tunisia, and Western Sahara.--HailesG (talk) 07:27, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

The demographic compromise is satisfactory. However, the notes in the table are also irrelevant since the preambulatory stuff on Arabization was meant to explain/preface them. Anyway, the political definition is that the Arab world consists of the 22 territories in the Arab League, so a link to the latter works fine. Soupforone (talk) 16:01, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Flag

Most of the ethnic groups don't have the flag in the infoxbox, such as the Berbers, this flag does not represent a lot of Arabs, many Arabs consider the Arab League is unhelpful. look at ethnic flag, This Flag of the Arab Revolt represents Arab nationalism However, it should not be in the infoxbox.--HailesG (talk) 02:26, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

The Arab League flag is about as relevant as the Arab League population figure, which is also in the infobox. Soupforone (talk) 04:18, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not talking about Arab League population flag, I mean this |flag =!!, like the Egyptians living in Egypt and Flag of Egypt represents all Egyptians, however that does not exist in the infobox.--HailesG (talk) 04:43, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

There isn't any such thing as a flag of all Arabs. The 1917 Arab revolt flag is the closest approximation in some ways, but it lacks any official status etc... AnonMoos (talk) 15:38, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

AnonMoos I know well, I didn't say that it represents the Arabs but Arab nationalism.--HailesG (talk) 02:25, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

HailesG, the flag parameter in the infobox is apparently earmarked for an ethnic flag. However, it also indicates that the parameter should be used with caution since most ethnic groups do not have a strongly associated flag; so I see your point. Soupforone (talk) 16:44, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Arab People

@Soupforone: Why did you delete this text (also known as the Arab People), many ethnicities have this definition, such as the Jews, Kurds and others...--HailesG (talk) 17:38, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

The phrasing that Arabs, also known as Arab people, are a people... is redundant per WP:REDUNDANCY-- Keep redundancy to a minimum in the first sentence. Use the first sentence of the article to provide relevant information that is not already given by the title of the article. Ergo, no need to repeat Arab and people. Soupforone (talk) 03:14, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Judaism

@Infantom: Since when did Judaism are an ethnic,? anyone of any ethnic group can convert to Judaism. Or be as before, or remove the entire section of the article.--HailesG (talk) 19:13, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Judaism isn't an ethnicity but an ethnic religion and conversion requires assimilation into the Jewish people. The section should be in the right context, otherwise it would be incorrect and misleading. Infantom (talk) 14:48, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

If this an ethnic religion and conversion requires assimilation into the Jewish people what it does in this article?, there are a lot of ethnic religions in the Arab world, such as Copts, Yezidism, Shabakism etc. So you can move it to the Demographics of the Arab League or Arab World. This article relates only to the Arab people.HailesG (talk) 18:36, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree with you, the Jewish section in Demographics of the Arab World is more appropriate option. Infantom (talk) 15:58, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Infantom, indeed. Rachida Dati's mother is also of Berber Jewish heritage . Soupforone (talk) 04:26, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Also, Steve Jobs was raised in a Swiss/German family. He therefore wasn't exactly culturally Arabian either. Soupforone (talk) 04:19, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Template removal

@HailesG: Could you explain to me why you keep removing the "failed verification" and "citation needed" templates. M.Bitton (talk) 22:07, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

I have mixed the sources, I was in a hurry.. In fact the number of Arabs more than this.--HailesG 22:16, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@HailesG: Do you mind answering my question ? The sources given do not support the statements, that's why I added the templates. So, why are you removing the templates without explanation ? M.Bitton (talk) 22:21, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

The source have been present for a long time, however I will look for other source.--HailesG (talk) 22:33, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@HailesG: I expect you to restore the templates while you're looking for other sources. M.Bitton (talk) 22:38, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Actually the CIA Factbook estimates an Arab population of 450 million. Well done!.--HailesG (talk) 22:45, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@HailesG: I restored the templates until you can provide reliable secondary sources that support the following statement: Arabs are an ethnic group and nation native to the Arab world. As for the book by Margaret Kleffner Nydell, it's clearly misinterpreted since it mentions 450 million Muslims (not Arabs). M.Bitton (talk) 23:02, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Look at this section for ethnic group, it was agreed for it....--HailesG (talk) 23:19, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@HailesG: I don't see what I'm looking for (the reliable sources). M.Bitton (talk) 23:23, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

About what?.--HailesG (talk) 23:26, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@HailesG: The reliable sources that support the following statement: Arabs are an ethnic group and nation native to the Arab world. M.Bitton (talk) 23:28, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Read this entire section, take your time.--HailesG (talk) 23:31, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@HailesG: I have and not a single source supports that statement. I expect you to restore the template that you deleted once again for no apparent reason. M.Bitton (talk) 23:33, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: Can you communicate with him and block this user GoulGoul1 he has no job except Arabs. @M.Bitton: 1 2 3 4 that's enough? for native the Arab world is native not indigenous, don't worry we know that the Berbers are indigenous to North Africa--HailesG (talk) 23:37, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@HailesG: Agreed ? We(I) never agreed to this, neither did you ever answer to my questions. Honestly, this article has became low quality, it went from being a neutral one that represented the best reality to an HQ of an ideology. I see several problems : You talk of an ethnic group, which I already showed you why this isn't true. But that's not all, you even claim (I recently noticed) that people form the MENA region form a nation, implying that everyone in the area see his world vision through the same glasses. Explain to me why the second biggest in Syria is one that is Syrian centric and not Pan Arab. There's clearly loads of Levantines who disagree harshly with what is written in this article (and I personally know myself several of them). I see also other problems, namely : " language, Architecture, art, literature, music, dance, media, cuisine, dress, society, sports and mythology"

How is the linguistic situation in anyway homogenous ? If you're referring to the use of MSA, then I agree. But this article fails to mention the disglossia and that the spoken varieties that are used in everyday life aren't the same from one region to another that someone (like me) would have an easier time talking with a Moroccan in English than I would in Arabic.

Neither is the music and dances common, just go see what Saudis think are their traditional dances and compare it to what people think is theirs. (Dabke for example) Clearly different. The same goes for the music, if by music you imply traditional one.

The dresses are also different, someone from Southern Arabia (Yemen for example) dresses in a completely different way from Najdi Bedouin, and a bedouin Najdi dresses completely different from what a Leb/Syrian would dress.

And what part about the mythology ? I thought most believers in the region were Monotheists through Christianity and Islam. Honestly, if this is what Wiki wants to present as "solid" info, it only brings its value down. Arabs are a pan ethnicity/different peoples, that's the consensus that was achieved and the one with no clear bias towards one movement or another. Please, for the love of God, bring those "sources" which support your claims and quote them. And I don't think I need to explain to you the concept of credibility, I assume you understand this.GoulGoul1 (talk) 04:37, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Our aforementioned discussion about this concluded that "ethnic group" be used, not "nation", which is a political statement and irredentist. We don't need sources that explicitly state "native to the Arab world"; in fact that line isn't even necessary. We can just write "Arabs are an ethnic group that mostly inhabit the Arab world", or something along those lines. However, I see no issue with bringing reliable sources to support the ethnic group statement. That would help steer us away from debates that have boiled down to contrasting the different dances and clothing choices of Najdis and Yemenis as points of argument. --Al Ameer (talk) 15:12, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Sources

• Ennaji, Mona (1999) "The Arab World (Maghreb and Near East)" in Fishman, Joshua, ed. Handbook of Language & Ethnic Identity, pp. 382–383. I have only a limited preview of this chapter, but it is a very informative read. Here are some relevant samples to this discussion:

After noting that some scholars "deny any direct or necessary link between language and ethnicity", and that other scholars "stress that language is the vehicle of ethnic identity", Ennaji writes:

According to the second view, language has often been a criterion by which we define or determine ethnicity. Each ethnic group associates with a language, and, conversely, language is a means of identifying an ethnic group. ... In the past, it was easy to differentiate Arabs from Berbers in the Maghreb because each community or group spoke only its own language; there were very few Arabic-Berber bilinguals. Today, most Berbers are bilingual (they also speak Arabic) because of social mobility, intermarriages, and socioeconomic interactions. Race, political class, and social class are not so crucial as language in determining ethnic groups in the Maghreb; it is impossible to distinguish a Berber from an Arab on the basis of race ... many Arabic-speaking tribes were Berberized and many Berber ones were Arabized over the centuries ... In the Maghreb, there are two major ethnic groups, Arabic speakers and Berber speakers (emphasis added). Historically, the latter were the first inhabitants of the region, whereas the former came from the Arabian Peninsula in the eighth century and with them the Arabic language and Islam. Because classical Arabic is associated with Islam and has a great literary tradition, it has been proclaimed the official language of the Arab world.

• Shoup, John A. (2011) Ethnic Groups of Africa and the Middle East: An Encyclopedia, p. xiii:

Ethnic groups can be fluid, such as Arab and Berber, and it is possible to be both an Arab and a Berber at the same time. Ethnicity can be defined as much by what a group is not as much as what it is; that is, it can be defined by those who are not members as much as those who are. It is possible to negotiate belonging to one group or another and, when language is the main means of defining a group, such as with the Arabs, it is possible to have multiple identities.

Also from Shoup, p. 16.:

Arabs are the single largest ethnic group in the Middle East and North Africa, numbering around 325 million people living in 22 countries that make up the League of Arab States ... In addition there are important Arab minorities in Turkey, Iran and Israel as well as in a number of Saharan and Sahel states, including Mali, Niger and Chad. Arabs have had a long historical presence in East Africa where they founded several trade cities, and as a result there are Arab minorities in Kenya and Tanzania, especially on the island of Zanzibar.

• Barakat, Halim. The Arab World: Society, Culture, and State, pp. 33–34.

The great majority of the citizens of the Arab world view themselves and are viewed by outsiders as Arabs. Their sens of Arab nationhood is based on what they have in common—namely, language, culture, sociopolitical experiences, economic interests, and a collective memory of their place and role in history. ... The prevailing view is that only a small minority of the citizens of Arab countries do not speak Arabic as their mother tongue and lack a sense of being Arab; this minority category includes the Kurds, Berbers, Armenians, and the ethnolinguistic groups of southern Sudan. Fewer still are those who speak Arabic as their mother tongue without sharing with the majority a sense of nationhood, a trend that may exist among the Maronites of Lebanon in times of conflict. Most other minority groups, such as the Orthodox Christians, Shi'ites, Alawites, and Druze, consider themselves Arabs with some qualifications and reservations.

Barakat delves further into the ethnicity–language dynamic on pages 40–47. Will add from this later. --Al Ameer (talk) 20:19, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son:

None of what you posted supports your initial claim, namely : That term “Arab” implies being an ethnic group all the way from the Atlantic to the Gulf. No one (with a very few exceptions) denies the reality of Arabism as in the influence that the Arabian groups had on a large scale, even extending to areas where Arabic languages aren’t spoken.

Ennaji doesn’t support your assertion, the author refers specifically to the context of Arabism in North Africa and its relation to the big Berber population that still exist today. The author refers specifically to ethnic groups that are limited to North Africa, it doesn’t imply that the people who speak the varieties of North African Arabic are related through ethnicitiy to the various other groups who happen to speak some form or another of Arabic. A Moroccan speaker of Darija is closer culturally speaking and through ethnicity to a Berber speaker then he is to a Khaleeji. That’s what the author meant, that Arabism had its influence on NA within that very specific context, it didn’t imply that this suddenly trandformed them into a radically different population from the Berber speaker.

Again, the second author (Shoup) refers specifically to the NA context. He doesn’t imply that Arabic speakers in NA are different from Berber speakers, he acknowledges that the term ethnicity can be confusing and that it really comes down to how you chose to define it. Early Arab nationalists said that Arabs (as in the people who speak some form or another of Arabic) constitute a nation and that border should be built around this perceived nation. But the thing is, that’s just what one group of people are saying. Others say completely different stuff and how they chose to define themselves. I’m myself from muslim Arab background and I clearly reject this notion of ethnicity being based on linguistics only. Anyway, the author you quoted actually supports my original argumentation, namely : that a just middle can be achieved. You can be Arab (as in having cultural influence) and that you can be whatever X also happens to have lived in the area where you lived. A Levantine Arab can be proud of his pre Islamic North West Semitic heritage while being proud of the reality of Arabism of where he lives.

In regards of the second paragraph from Shoup, : Yes, if you chose to define ethnicity only based around linguistic considerations, then yeah, “Arabs” are an ethnic group. But the problem I see with this logic (and there’s a lot of them) is that the author assumes that the reality on the ground is one where everyone accepts this “pact” or that people in the past when pan Arabism was at its peak in the 50-60’s that everyone agreed with this. Just go see what were the other movements in each specific region like Egypt, the Levant, etc. that were in competition with Arab nationalists. Those people aren’t from minority groups, they came very much (like me) from Arabic speaking and muslim background and clearly rejected Arab nationalist rhetoric. Again Ameer, why is the biggest political group after the Ba’ath a Syrian nationalist one with a very specific “Syria first” minded type ideology? You think those people are only composed of Levantine Christians ? I wouldn’t be surprised if there were more muslims in the SNPP then there were Christians tbh (I don’t have stats in this regards )

For Barakat, he also doesn’t support your notion of ethnicity. (according to what you posted) He does speak of “nationhood” but “nationhood” doesn’t always imply common ethnicity. Just go see countries like Swtizerland or Spain who are considered nations even though they’re composed of people with different ethnic background and languages. Now that this is put aside, I still see several problems with the claims of Barakat. While that what he says is true, that the MENA region is seen as “Arab” (which, again, I must remind you, doesn’t nec. mean ethnicity), he bases his claims on several buzzwords which some of you here have been repeating. I don’t know if Barakat goes more deeply in his claims, but I would be curious to see if he ever supports his claims about having a common “language”, “culture”, etc. I already told you the problems with those claims, the MENA region doesn’t have a unified linguistic situation outside of the use of MSA. The culture is Arab in the sense that Arab culture influenced the different cultures from the MENA region, but this doesn’t imply that there was a homogenization of culture all from the atlantic to the Gulf. Sociopolitical problems are also pretty different from one region to another. Religious sectarianism doesn’t affect Morocco the same way it affects Lebanon and Iraq for example. The rest isn’t clear to what the author is referring to. Economic interests aren’t remotely common even within people the same country. Also, in regards of collective memory, the author isn’t clear to what he refers to. And lol at the rest : Fewer still are those who speak Arabic as their mother tongue without sharing with the majority a sense of nationhood, a trend that may exist among the Maronites of Lebanon in times of conflict. Most other minority groups, such as the Orthodox Christians, Shi'ites, Alawites, and Druze, consider themselves Arabs with some qualifications and reservations.” I’m sure that he has solid stats supporting this.

Btw, can you answer my questions :

1-How do you explain that there are people of Arab background who would deny your assertion of common ethnicity ? Please, leave aside the insults of being “self hating” or something of this sort, as if the only reason why someone wouldn’t agree with you is because he dislikes himself.

2-What is your opinion on the standardization movements in regards of the vernaculars that are spoken in the MENA region ? As a Lebanese, I’m aware that someone like Said Akl tried to do this but in his regards, it had more to do with Maronite sectarianism than anything else. But putting aside the nationalist reasons, do you think there are valid reasons to tackle the linguistic issues in the area ?

3-What’s your opinion on the pre Islamic history of the region ? Should it be accorded the same respect as the post Islamic one ?

4- If someone agreed with your idea of ethnicity, can you tell me when did this concept of ethnicity began officialy ?

5- How do you explain that the second biggest party is a Syrian centric one where its members are not composed of non Arab minorities ? It's a given that they would disagree with you in regards of your assertions.GoulGoul1 (talk) 22:50, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

@GoulGoul: The above sources, and there are more, explicitly hold that the Arabs form an ethnic group on a number of bases, mainly language and self-identity. It also supports the view that the Arabs are a diverse and widespread group and could have multiple/overlapping identities. The racialist concept of ethnicity does not apply to the modern-day definition of Arabs which could be traced to the late 19th/early 20th century or the 1940s. Respectfully, I will not answer your questions because they are not relevant to the specific topic at hand and this is Not A Forum, or a coffeehouse in which we engage in grand debates. --Al Ameer (talk) 22:42, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son:

"The above sources, and there are more, explicitly hold that the Arabs form an ethnic group on a number of bases, mainly language and self-identity."

Yes, essentially what I already said, if you consider language a good enough factor to consider it as an ethnicity. But who says that this is the accepted wisdom in the area ? I clearly don’t think myself as ethnically French or English just because I hold linguistic ties with both these languages. I don’t see why Arabic gets an easy pass in this regards. I don’t think I need to remind you that several Lebs (and not only Maronites) who refuse this “ethnicity” that you’re so intent on putting on the back of everyone.

"The racialist concept of ethnicity does not apply to the modern-day definition of Arabs which could be traced to the late 19th/early 20th century or the 1940s."

Of course it can’t, because there’s way too much differences in the region for one to work. Eseentialy, it’s language (MSA) that “holds” this region. "Respectfully, I will not answer your questions because they are not relevant to the specific topic at hand and this is Not A Forum, or a coffeehouse in which we engage in grand debates."

So you’re essentially running away from very relevant questions. Here are your options : Either you modify the article and specify that “ethnicity” isn’t a common accepted wisdom across the region and tackle every and single member of the MENA region specifying their relations with this supposed “Ethnicity” and you actually provide a real background to what is happening on the ground or you actually answer to my questions. I’m even going to explain to you why they are relevant ones : Your initial claim is that the area where Arabic languages are spoken form an ethnicity. My first question address this claim and makes it clear that what you take for granted isn’t accepted as you make it to be or when people actually accept Arabism, they have very different views of what it actually constitutes. (or some just refuse categorically) How is it possible for people to be of Arab background and being a common ethnicity from someone of Morocco while at the same time refusing this categorization? Don’t you find this contradictory

This brings us to our second point : Knowing that MSA is the link of past pan Arabist movements, do you consider vernacular standardization a threat to your movement ? I mean, I’m going to help you here, : you can still be of the same ethnic stock as someone even if the linguistic ties aren’t this homogeneous in the first place.

Third point : The problem I see with this article is that it does zero mention that several groups in the region aren’t only limited to Arabian cultural influence. There’s zero mention of pre Islamic history of each of the several different groups of the MENA region. The history of the different individuals didn’t begin with Islam.

Fourth point : When did the people of the MENA begin to think of themselves as a common ethnicity ? Is this a recent thing ? It’s really relevant if you’re going to understand who you are as a people. It can even help this article if someone with bad intents would want to attack you on these bases. The last point is directly tied to the first one : a Syrian centric identity goes directly into opposition of pan Arab movements, and you don’t mention this for some reason. Do you remember in 1958 when Lebanon went into civil war, the SNPP didn’t remotely associate with your friend Nasser’s ideology of pan Arabism and clearly fought against him and his friends. So yeah, it would be relevant if you could mention all these ideological movements who also have different ways of defining themselves.

Anyway , my friend, I’m here just to help you. Your claims are built on mud, it can only profit you if you can answer my questions.GoulGoul1 (talk) 16:06, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Proposal

Of all the sources mentioned so far, including the 5 cited in the article, the one that directly supports the statement "the Arabs as an ethnic group" does so only when groups are selected based on ethno-linguistic classifications.

The groups selected are based on ethno-linguistic classifications, and not all individual ethnicities are included (page 9)..... Ethnic groups can be fluid, such as Arab or Berber, and it is possible to be both an Arab and a Berber at the same time (page 13)..... Arabs are the largest single ethnic group in the Middle East and North Africa, numbering around 325 million people living in 22 countries that make up the League of Arab States, including Somalia, Djibouti, and the Comoro Islands. In addition, there are important Arab minorities in Turkey, Iran, and Israel as well as in a number of Saharan and Sahel States in Africa including Mali, Niger, and Chad.

Another source that describes the Arabs as an ethnolinguistic group is by Karl Yambert.

By whatever label one might apply to the two regions, it makes sense, in certain contexts at least, to consider North Africa together with the Midlle East proper, because they share a history of both Arab and Islamic dominance (page 2)........ Numbering about 172 million, not only are Arabs the overwhelmingly dominant ethnolinguistic group in the twelve Arab countries of our sixteen core states, they also include at least one million nationals in three other countries—Israel, Turkey, and Iran—and are numerically negligible only in Cyprus. In the five Arab countries in North Africa plus Sudan, they number another 97.2 million. All Arabs share two cultural elements, and most share a third. First, the Arabic language provides an element common to all, despite dialect variations. As the language of the Quran, it has deep religious and cultural significance for most Arabs. Second, the Islamic cultural heritage embodied in architecture, design, calligraphy, and art provides a common Arab history--Muslim and Christian, Orthodox and heterodox, Bedouin and city-dweller, Syrian and Qatari, Moroccan and Egyptian. It underlines modern Arab political identity, relevant in many modern problems and conflicts. Third, since more than 92 percent of Midlle East Arabs are Muslim, Islam links the majority.

@Al Ameer son and Soupforone: Don't you think that, as well as being attributable to RS, "ethnolinguistic group" is a more succinct way to describe the Arabs ?

References

1. Ernest L. Abel (1 January 2003). Arab Genetic Disorders: A Layman's Guide. McFarland. ISBN 978-0-7864-1463-5.
2. "The Middle East". COTF. Retrieved 23 Dec 2016.
3. Eugene Rogan (5 November 2009). The Arabs: A History. Penguin Books Limited. ISBN 978-0-14-193962-9.
4. Maxime Rodinson (15 July 1981). The Arabs. University of Chicago Press. ISBN 978-0-226-72356-3.
5. Philip Khuri Hitti (1 October 1996). The Arabs: A Short History. Princeton University Press. ISBN 978-0-89526-706-1.
6. John A. Shoup (31 October 2011). Ethnic Groups of Africa and the Middle East: An Encyclopedia. ABC-CLIO. p. 16. ISBN 978-1-59884-362-0.
7. Karl Yambert (13 November 2012). The Contemporary Middle East: A Westview Reader. Westview Press. p. 17. ISBN 978-0-8133-4840-7.

M.Bitton (talk) 16:53, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

M.Bitton, ethnolinguistic indeed seems more succinct and accurate. Soupforone (talk) 17:33, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

ethnolinguistic it can include Brazilians but not Arabs who identify with each other based on similarities, such as common ancestral, language, social, cultural or national experiences. Just like ethnic group criteria.--Marlo Jonesa (talk) 01:20, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

I understand. There are shared genealogical traditions, so ethnic group is okay too I suppose. Soupforone (talk) 06:48, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

@Soupforone and Marlo Jonesa: The ethnic group question has been discussed to death with nothing more than exhaustion to show for it at the end. The reason is twofold, one: the lack of reliable sources supporting the statement, and two: the fact that ethnic group is open to interpretation, not just by the layperson but by scholars too.

The main idea behind this proposal was to break away from that circle by concentrating solely on what is directly supported by the RS. So far. we have two sources supporting "ethnolinguistic" and none whatsoever supporting "ethnic". M.Bitton (talk) 18:06, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

"Ethnolinguistic" is a term I don't often see being used explicitly and it would exclude the self-identity factor as well as other unifying factors, be they shared genealogical traditions (even if these traditions were to be mostly myth), and cultural, religious and political ties. I understand there are objections to Arab ethnicity being raised here (even though there's a firestorm at nearly every page about the various peoples of the Middle East) but we shouldn't follow a double standard with Arabs as opposed to other peoples where language is a major unifying factor. As one of the sources (Mona Ennaji) listed above illustrates, there are two schools of scholarship when it comes to ethnicity: the first considers language to be the primary driver of ethnic identity and the other denies links between ethnicity and language. If we were to apply the latter here, it should be a part of a much larger discussion about what constitutes an ethnic group on Misplaced Pages, not decided here solely for the Arabs. --Al Ameer (talk) 18:29, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son:Describing them as an ethnolinguistic group doesn't have to exclude anything. We can easily describe them as "an ethnolinguistic group with a shared Islamic heritage.." (as per the second source above), add whatever the reliable sources consider to be a unifying factor among Arabs and still adhere to WP's content policies. M.Bitton (talk) 19:34, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

M.Bitton, ethnic group is indeed intrinsic in the ethnolinguistic portmanteau, and thus so are the shared genealogical traditions. The other conflation, language (linguistic), seems to be the main uncertainty. Soupforone (talk) 03:36, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

@ M.Bitton Considering there are millions of indigenous Arabic-speaking Christians in the Arab World, adding such a statement as "a shared Islamic heritage", is not only inflammatory but also unforgivably asinine. George Al-Shami (talk) 03:45, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

M.Bitton, "an ethnolinguistic group with a shared Islamic heritage.." You made them an ethnoreligious group. In fact, there are millions of Arab Christians In addition there are Jews, and atheists, Arabs are multi-religious and non-religious. There are misunderstood to many people about the ethnic group, believe the gene should be 100%, but in this present world no longer are there, because religions made all peoples mixed with each other. However, there are a lot of people consider white, black and Arab they are race.

• Definition of ethnic group:1234

1. Pertaining to or characteristic of a people, especially a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.
2. Referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of suchgroups.
3. Being a member of an ethnic group, especially of a group that is aminority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco.
4. Of, relating to, or characteristic of members of such a group.
5. belonging to or deriving from the cultural, religious, or linguistictraditions of a people or country: ethnic dances.
6. (Of a human being) displaying characteristics, as in physicalappearance, language, or accent, that can cause one to beidentified by others as a member of a minority ethnic group.
7. A community or population made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent
8. Of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background
9. Being a member of a specified ethnic group c : of, relating to, or characteristic of a minority ethnic group

• Ethnic identity:

The extent to which one identifies with a particular ethnic group(s). Refers to one’s sense of belonging to an ethnic group and the part of one’s thinking, perceptions, feelings, and behavior that is due to ethnic group membership. The ethnic group tends to be one in which the individual claims heritage (Phinney, 1996). Ethnic identity is separate from one’s personal identity as an individual, although the two may reciprocally influence each other. 4 major components of ethnic identity:

1. Ethnic awareness (understanding of one’s own and other groups)
2. Ethnic self-identification (label used for one’s own group)
3. Ethnic attitudes (feelings about own and other groups)
4. Ethnic behaviors (behavior patterns specific to an ethnic group)

• Ethnicity and ethnic groups – an explanation of these terms:

An ‘ethnic group’ has been defined as a group that regards itself or is regarded by others as a distinct community by virtue of certain characteristics that will help to distinguish the group from the surrounding community. Ethnicity is considered to be shared characteristics such as culture, language, religion, and traditions, which contribute to a person or group’s identity.

1. the belief by members of a social group that they are culturally distinctive and different to outsiders;
2. their willingness to find symbolic markers of that difference (food habits, religion, forms of dress, language) and to emphasise their significance; and
3. their willingness to organise relationships with outsiders so that a kind of ‘group boundary’ is preserved and reproduced

This shows that ethnicity is not necessarily genetic. It also shows how someone might describe themselves by an ethnicity different to their birth identity if they reside for a considerable time in a different area and they decide to adopt the culture, symbols and relationships of their new community. It is worth noting that the Traveller Community is recognised as a distinct ethnic group in the UK and Northern Ireland, but only as a distinct cultural group in the Republic of Ireland. Ethnicity is also a preferential term to describe the difference between humans rather than ‘race’. This is because race is a now a discredited term that divided all peoples based on the idea of skin colour and superiority. There is only one ‘race’, the human race as we are essentially genetically identical. For example, there is no French ‘race’ but the French people could be described as a separate ethnic group.

• Ethnicity vs Race:23

The traditional definition of race and ethnicity is related to biological and sociological factors respectively. Race refers to a person's physical characteristics, such as bone structure and skin, hair, or eye color. Ethnicity, however, refers to cultural factors, including nationality, regional culture, ancestry, and language.

1. Ethnicity: An ethnic group or ethnicity is a population group whose members identify with each other on the basis of common nationality or shared cultural traditions.
2. Race: The term race refers to the concept of dividing people into populations or groups on the basis of various sets of physical characteristics (which usually result from genetic ancestry).

• Conclusion: Arabs are completely ethnic groups such as the French, Germans, Turks, Kurds etc. So we do not need to change it, even if this happened would come someone else says that Arabs are an ethnic group and not ethnolinguistic and bla bla bla...--Marlo Jonesa (talk) 10:09, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

@George Al-Shami and Marlo Jonesa: I obviously meant "Islamic cultural heritage" as I clearly referred to the previously quoted source. It was just an example to explain to Al Ameer son that describing the Arabs as an ethnolinguistic group doesn't have to exclude other unifying factors (whatever they may be).

@Marlo Jonesa: Your conclusion is based on nothing more than original research.

So far, we have:

• Tertiary sources describing the Arabs as those whose language is Arabic, or members of the Semitic people of the Arabian Peninsula.
• Secondary sources describing them as an ethnolinguistic group.
• A secondary source stating that they are not a distinct ethnic group.

M.Bitton (talk) 21:47, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Bit by bit I see that ethnolinguistic proposal is only an argument to replace ethnic group to ethnolinguistic, here we take standards of ethnic group just like Misplaced Pages and universal definition of ethnic group. When you're looking for a definition, you may jump these definitions:1 2. Than normal to find sources say that the Arabs are Arabic-speaking peoples because this is related to the Arab League, there are many people in the Arab world, such as the Kurds, Berbers, Assyrians, Somalis, Copts, etc who speak Arabic. If ethnic group criteria have changed in the Misplaced Pages, and include all ethnicities and then changed this to the Arabs. For example, Berbers, Kurds, Armenians, Turks, French or Germans if they became in Misplaced Pages "ethnolinguistic" so this will include Arabs but leaving all these and focus on the Arabs that is irrational and arbitrary.--Marlo Jonesa (talk) 22:36, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

@Marlo Jonesa: You're just repeating yourself without bringing a single reliable source to support your argument. How others are described is irrelevant to this article.

I ask you one more time not to remove the tag as it's meant to highlight the disputed "ethnic group" statement. M.Bitton (talk) 00:15, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

@M.Bitton:, I don't know what you're doing, what you did in this article is no good to pretend that the French people are the various individuals or groups of people associated with France (Unsourced). French people are an ethnic group and nation. Please Read ethnic group and nation. Obviously you are a new user on Misplaced Pages, I've added a lot of sources, see and if you want more, I'll bring as much as this number!.--Marlo Jonesa (talk) 01:46, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

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