| Revision as of 08:18, 11 October 2006 editA Kiwi (talk | contribs)1,189 edits Understanding Sam Vaknin's work← Previous edit | Revision as of 13:15, 11 October 2006 edit undoPenbat (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users58,229 editsm →Shocked by deletion of Vaknin, Sam ''Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited'' by 220.237.81.156Next edit → | ||
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| :Vaknin is not an authority - he is regarded in the profession as a crank with many wildly unsubstantiated claims. This page must retain professional rigour to maintain credibility. - Unsigned by ] 22:49, 10 October 2006 (UTC) Please sign your posts from now on. | :Vaknin is not an authority - he is regarded in the profession as a crank with many wildly unsubstantiated claims. This page must retain professional rigour to maintain credibility. - Unsigned by ] 22:49, 10 October 2006 (UTC) Please sign your posts from now on. | ||
| :::220.237.81.156 is almost certainly sockpuppet and can be disregarded. --] 13:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Vaknin does not make things up out of nothing - they are not things he dreamed up. Sam worked under a psychitrist conducting research on personality disorders while he was in prison and had unfettered access to the doctor's library selections. Since he left Israel 10 years ago, he has acquired a considerable library of authorities on NPD and, as time went by, on many other relevant and related topics. | ::Vaknin does not make things up out of nothing - they are not things he dreamed up. Sam worked under a psychitrist conducting research on personality disorders while he was in prison and had unfettered access to the doctor's library selections. Since he left Israel 10 years ago, he has acquired a considerable library of authorities on NPD and, as time went by, on many other relevant and related topics. | ||
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| ::The truth is that Vaknin's book, MSL, is on the shelves at several Ivy League colleges because professors have requested it be there. If it is good enough for them, then it must be a lot better what your spouting off indicates. He has no "wildly unsubstantiated claims". Whenever something is merely his own material, he indicates that. All the rest, he learned from the authorities in the field. -] 06:39, 11 October 2006 (UTC) | ::The truth is that Vaknin's book, MSL, is on the shelves at several Ivy League colleges because professors have requested it be there. If it is good enough for them, then it must be a lot better what your spouting off indicates. He has no "wildly unsubstantiated claims". Whenever something is merely his own material, he indicates that. All the rest, he learned from the authorities in the field. -] 06:39, 11 October 2006 (UTC) | ||
| ==What the professionals have to say== | ==What the professionals have to say== | ||
Revision as of 13:15, 11 October 2006
Archive 2
The most recent comment was 6 weeks old and redundant, most was far older, and is now totally irrelevant, so I have archived the page.--Zeraeph 08:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
New discussions please
Zeraeph is currently under suspension for Wiki violations and verbally attacking others. As far as I am concerned all her contributions were completely poisonous. I think it is a good idea to keep the previous text archived so we can start afresh with the slate wiped clean. I am working on the Bully and Workplace Bully Wiki entries in particular. Narcissism and psychopathy is closely related to bullying so there is quite a lot of overlap.
I am not in Sam Vaknin's fan club but I feel that Zeraeph wound him up into a frenzy. Like him or loath him, Sam is one of the key authorities on narcissism. He still runs two support groups for victims of narcissism. --Penbat 11:55, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Narcissistic Rage, Supply and Injury
No mention of these. They all need their own Wikis. --Penbat 14:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Say what?
"Zeraeph wound him up into a frenzy"
Don't you know that, like wife beaters, narcissists always pull this stunt to come out smelling like a rose? And it worked on YOU? Oh, what a groaner. Unbelievable. Just unbelievable. I'm oughta here. --User:ken2849
Peer-reviewed, neutral content needed
This entry is generally lacking in scholarly rigour and reads as opinion. It would be improved by a healthy dose of substantiation and peer-reviewed referencing.(Unsigned comment)
Yes I agree but more importantly IMO loads of material is completely missing: true self, false self, projection, narcissistic rage, narcissistic supply, narcissistic injury etc are completely missing. They are ideas introduced by the pioneers mentioned on Narcissism_(psychology). I am gradually working towards a more rigourous write up but I am no expert. The only heavyweight expert around who was likely to contribute was Sam Vaknin but the powers that be have banned him.
- Vaknin is not recognised by peers as an authority - he is widely regarded in the profession as a crank, and a dangerous spreader of misinformation. I support the "powers that be", just as I would support removal of Intelligent Design arguments in wiki articles on biology. It's comparable. - Unsigned by User:220.237.81.156 22:48, 10 October 2006
Not all material can be peer reviewed scientifically as the pioneers such as Kohut had differing theories but they are important to understand. --Penbat 13:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Also nothing on Comorbidity of NPD. --Penbat 14:31, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Shocked by deletion of Vaknin, Sam Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited by 220.237.81.156
You could at least had the decency to discuss this first. There are about 30 books listed - with a wide range of styles - some very academic and some designed for the lay non-technical reader. Sam Vaknin's book is one of the best selling on Narcissism. The reader is more than capable of using their own judgement about which books to refer to. IMO this sort of censorship is unreasonable and If it is not put back I will refuse to ever do any more work on narcissism Wikis. --Penbat 13:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- Vaknin is not an authority - he is regarded in the profession as a crank with many wildly unsubstantiated claims. This page must retain professional rigour to maintain credibility. - Unsigned by User:220.237.81.156 22:49, 10 October 2006 (UTC) Please sign your posts from now on.
- 220.237.81.156 is almost certainly sockpuppet and can be disregarded. --Penbat 13:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
- Vaknin does not make things up out of nothing - they are not things he dreamed up. Sam worked under a psychitrist conducting research on personality disorders while he was in prison and had unfettered access to the doctor's library selections. Since he left Israel 10 years ago, he has acquired a considerable library of authorities on NPD and, as time went by, on many other relevant and related topics.
- Vaknin's only "mistake" was in not foot-noting his original book. Instead, he merely listed his reference texts.
- The truth is that Vaknin's book, MSL, is on the shelves at several Ivy League colleges because professors have requested it be there. If it is good enough for them, then it must be a lot better what your spouting off indicates. He has no "wildly unsubstantiated claims". Whenever something is merely his own material, he indicates that. All the rest, he learned from the authorities in the field. -I am Kiwi 06:39, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
What the professionals have to say
Narcissistic Supply in professional journals & books
Google Scholar Search - Scholarly books and journal articles referencing "Narcissistic Supply
found on that page - The earliest date for a doctor (a psychoanalyst) using "Narcissistic Supply" was 1938. The drive to amass wealth O Fenichel - Psychoanalytic Quarterly, 1938 - pep-web.org ... can be looked upon first as a derivative of that primitive form of regulation of self-regard in which the individual requires a 'narcissistic supply' from the ...
Also, these that quote and cite Vaknin
- Narcissism in High Fidelity Dr. Kristina Nelson aLibris Author Page
- Narzisstische Strukturen in Sunset Boulevard und Mulholland Drive N Velten, H Berressem, E Seminar - pp 6,16,17 uni-koeln.de ... of Narcissistic Supply (admiration, adoration, approval, awe) and fulfills important Ego functions“ (Vaknin). Eine narzisstische ... Narzisstische Strukturen
- Unadulterated Arrogance: Autopsy of the Narcissistic Parental Alienator DM Summers, CC Summers - American Journal of Family Therapy, 2006 - Taylor & Francis
- ... excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation—or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply) (Vaknin, 2003b). ...
-I am Kiwi 07:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Narcissistic Rage in Professional Journals & Books
Google Scholar for Narcissistic Rage As far as I can reckon, Kohut coined this term in a book published in 1971. -I am Kiwi 07:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Narcissistic Injury in Professional Journals & Books
2000 mentions in scholarly books & journals -I am Kiwi 07:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Human Sources of Narcissistic Supply
Google Scholar - professional books and journals dealing with Sources of Narcissistic Personality It may have been Vaknin who coined the terms Primary and Secondary. Not all relevant journals and books are available online, but analysts recognized and described Primary and Secondary sources of supply, even if they didn't use the actual terms.
-I am Kiwi 07:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Understanding Sam Vaknin's body of work
Sam Vaknin is a more than competent researcher, and he has written a book that may be rambling and repetitive, but that does not not mean that facts within suddenly become faulty. It doesn't work that way. The truth is that Vaknin has devoted a large portion of the last 10+ years studying NPD.
After he brought his as then unpublished book to the web, he immediately attracted thousands of correspondents, including mental health professionals, to include psychiatrists and psychologists. He did not realize he was going to get more letters from the human wreckage NPD spawns than from any other group. This led him to begin years of continuing deep and extensive study of shame, dependence, codependency, other personality disorders, etc.
He has done increasingly large amounts of study in of research findings in a wide range of subjects touching on all aspects of the personality disorders and the disruptions in human relational functioning.
The truth is, Vaknin does not have much of any "original research" in his books and articles. What he percieved from his correspondence, he did not write about directly but of what his research told him about what letters to him said. What Vaknin has in his book comes from the very fine minds of icons in the field. Vaknin's "problem", as I mentioned above, was his failure to footnote. If he weren't so lazy or if he thought it would gain him sufficient narcissistic supply, he might be tempted to tackle that arduous task. -I am Kiwi 08:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)