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Revision as of 16:46, 26 November 2017 editMarkBernstein (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users4,228 edits →Statement by (username)← Previous edit Revision as of 16:55, 26 November 2017 edit undoAnythingyouwant (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Template editors91,258 edits →Statement by Anythingyouwant: dishonesty is not the best policy in any Misplaced Pages articleNext edit →
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::@], since 1RR was not part of the complaint, I did not explain above why there was no 1RR violation. The reason is that the first of my two edits was not a revert, even if you consider the second one to be. The second edit did not have one word in common with the first edit, unless you count the footnote, which I guess makes the second one a revert, but still the first one isn't.] (]) 07:54, 26 November 2017 (UTC) ::@], since 1RR was not part of the complaint, I did not explain above why there was no 1RR violation. The reason is that the first of my two edits was not a revert, even if you consider the second one to be. The second edit did not have one word in common with the first edit, unless you count the footnote, which I guess makes the second one a revert, but still the first one isn't.] (]) 07:54, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@], you say that the first of my two edits that are the basis of this complain was a revert. That’s incorrect. It’s true that the sentence in the lead was previously edited to say “but did not deny approaching or dating teenagers 16 or older.“ The first of my two edits did not mention 16 or being older than 16, butcrather referred to the ] as numerous reliable sources do. Anyway, it continues to amaze me that you apparently continue this effort to make readers think Moore never denied dating teenagers under the age of consent, which would have been illegal. You are deliberately attempting to make our lead be dishonest. I don’t believe your rationalizations one bit.] (]) 16:54, 26 November 2017 (UTC)


====Statement by SPECIFICO==== ====Statement by SPECIFICO====

Revision as of 16:55, 26 November 2017

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    Thucydides411

    Thucydides411 is banned from all edits and pages related to US-Russia relations for three months. For the avoidance of doubt, this includes matters related to the question of Russian interference in US elections. GoldenRing (talk) 12:24, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Thucydides411

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    MrX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 19:44, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Thucydides411 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    WP:ARBAPDS :
    • Misplaced Pages editors are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other editors; to approach even difficult situations in a dignified fashion and with a constructive and collaborative outlook; and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, harassment, disruptive point-making, and gaming the system, is prohibited.
    • All Misplaced Pages articles must be written from a neutral point of view. Merely presenting a plurality of viewpoints, especially from polarized sources, does not fulfill the neutral point of view.
    • When there is a good-faith dispute, editors are expected to participate in the consensus-building process and to carefully consider other editors' views, rather than simply edit-warring back-and-forth between competing versions.
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it


    1. November 12, 2017 Restoring blatant personal attack after it was removed by another editor. (Edit warring)
    2. November 12, 2017 Restoring blatant personal attack after it was removed by another editor. (Edit warring)
    1. November 12, 2017 Restoring blatant personal attack after it was removed by another editor. (Edit warring)
    1. November 12, 2017 Blatant personal attack and personalizing disputes.
    2. November 12, 2017 Assumption of bad faith: "This just looks like an attempt to hide the mainstream view of the JAR from readers. Given the discussion above about "purging" the article, the intent of this RfC is quite clear."
    3. November 12, 2017 Assumption of bad faith
    4. November 12, 2017 Assumption of bad faith
    5. October 11, 2017 Personalizing content disputes
    6. July 4, 2017 Refusal to accept consensus
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    1. February 18, 2017 Blocked for violation of discretionary sanctions restrictions
    2. May 7, 2017 Given a discretionary sanction by Lord Roem (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Thucydides411 has persistently made assumptions of bad faith, personal attacks, edit warring, refusal to abide by consensus] and general tendentious editing at Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections for nearly a year as part of his campaign to inject his fringe POV, that election interference by Russia didn't happen, into the article. He has been warned several times at several venues to stop but he continues to exhibit a pattern of behavior that is disruptive and a drain on everyone's patience. These last personal attacks on Volunteer Marek are way over the line.

    @James J. Lambden: That's news to me. Please list the diffs corresponding to my examples above that show Thucydides411 being attacked. And no, let's not close this. We all know that ANI is useless for resolving these types of issues which is why there were two Arbcom cases for American politics, and why there are discretionary sanction which I am asking to be enforced.- MrX 00:39, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Thucydides411

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Thucydides411

    I'm not going to comment here further than to say this: I think this report is part of a campaign of intimidation and harassment. I really don't have the time to respond - getting down in the mud over the insane situation on American Politics articles isn't worth it. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:57, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by slatersateven)

    There is an ongoing ANI launched by me. We should close this (or that) and only have one running.Slatersteven (talk) 19:59, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

    Can we please close this, statements are being made here I feel I should respond to, but have no wish to be accused of forum shopping.Slatersteven (talk) 10:48, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

    As this is obviously not going to be closed I have asked for the ANI to be closed. I note that he has never informed anyone of DS, but was informed in the last 12 months.Slatersteven (talk) 14:45, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

    At ANI I asked for a topic ban after the user rejected the simple request by another edd to just step away for 48 hours. I fell that if the user is not given some kind of sanction they will in fact continue to be disruptive and provocative. As to the comments about him being provoked. In the last interaction the first "about a user statement" made by anyone was this , whilst not aimed at A user it is an attack on anyone who disagrees with him as being politically motivated. Maybe I am missing where he was provoked into making that statement, As far as I can see he was the one deliberately trying to provoke people.Slatersteven (talk) 14:54, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

    Also not only was he not hated alone, but he attempted to move his comment out of the hat (whilst keeping others hated) .Slatersteven (talk) 15:36, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

    There was nothing stopping Thucydides411 from removing PA's, that would have been well within policy, edit warring to include his is against policy in a number of ways. It was this fact that led to my ANI, not the PA's themselves.Slatersteven (talk) 18:20, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by James J. Lambden

    Thucydides411 has been the target of a harassment campaign. It follows the pattern of:

    1. Attack him
    2. Wait for in-kind response
    3. Option A: use his response as evidence of hostility
    4. Option B: remove or hat his response alone, to annoy

    Regardless, Slatersteven is right. One complaint is enough. Close this. James J. Lambden (talk) 00:18, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

    @MrX: I did not mean to suggest every editor is a witting participant but the pattern is predictable and repeating. See the comments above this diff November 12, 2017 which you linked in your complaint and subsequent removals. I will leave it to Thucydides411 to present previous examples if he chooses to respond here. I believe WP:FORUMSHOP precludes two open complaints. James J. Lambden (talk) 00:49, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by Seraphim System

    If this is enough for ARBCOM to get involved, there are at least three complaints I want to make - anyone else? Seraphim System 10:57, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by Anythingyouwant

    I advise any further comments to be put at ANI, pursuant to this comment by an administrator. Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:07, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by SPECIFICO

    I'm copying some of the evidence I presented at the ANI thread:

    Admins have sanctioned Thucydides411 twice already for violating DS on ARBAP2. first sanction and then the second sanction Whenever this is mentioned, he responds with a personal theory as to why one or both of these did not really happen, citing among other things his unsuccessful appeal. He's done that several times, and it demonstrates that the sanctions have not caused him to reconsider his behavior. Recent example: .

    He routinely mischaracterizes good faith content disagreements as POV-pushing by the majority of editors on the Politics articles who are collaborating to reflect mainstream description of facts and events. He accuses editors of following their personal opinions and engages with disparagement and denigration rather than discussion of content, sources, and policy. This behavior is not only at the Russian Interference article; it's on other related articles as well. For those who are not familiar with his conduct, here are some threads that demonstrate his personalized battleground style:

    ANI
    And meanwhile he’s been going after Marek on a long list of pages for a long time and has been politely asked over and over to stop.:

    What's particularly weird, to me, is why Thuc would think that these years-old irrelevant ad hominems against Marek would hold any sway over the current editors Thuc is presumably trying to win to his POV? It seems to me he is so invested in personalizing routine editing communications that he doesn't even realize that the overwhelming majority of editors thinks these ad hominems are pointless and offensive. SPECIFICO talk 18:28, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

    The most recent incident v. Marek may have precipitated this complaint, but it is only the most recent incident for Thucydides411. His participation on article and user talk pages and Noticeboards has consistently devolved into accusations of personal POV bias and then the further accusation that Admins and the entire WP project overlook policy violations and POV editing that fits a certain political stance. I linked three threads above that give a glimpse of this behavior. I know, TLDR, but you can read any 6-12 inches of it and it all comes in focus. This is a WP:NOTHERE account fighting a crusade against the bias of WP for relying on the weight of mainstream sources. SPECIFICO talk 19:01, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

    Darouet forgot to post Thucydides' next move after that thread he excerpted. The follow-up was that, because I later referred to Russian psy-ops in trying to ingratiate themselves to members of the Trump team, Thucydides started a complaint about me at BLPN, claiming that my mention of the term psy-ops was a BLP violation..

    Here he is disparaging the motives of editors who disagree with his POV. Here he goes after patience-of-a-saint MelanieN SPECIFICO talk 01:21, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

    It's not right for Darouet to cast aspersions on me and Marek and call each of us hypocrites, citing as his justification the fact that MrX filed this complaint. SPECIFICO talk 01:26, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by Volunteer Marek

    I was not going to comment here but since User:GoldenRing can't drop this and continues to try and get me for some reason I feel compelled to respond. GR references this comment of mine and says that I am "casting aspersions and personalising this dispute". Nonsense. First, this is AN/I NOT an article talk page. On AN/I we discuss EDITOR'S BEHAVIOR and not content. There's no "personalizing the dispute" here. I mean, if I'm "personalizing the dispute" so is everybody else who's ever commented on ANI including GoldenRing himself. As for "casting aspersions" - again, this is AN/I. We discuss editor's behavior. And yes, if you look at edits by Thucydides411 since mid-December 2016, it's something like 90% on this one article on Russian interference in the US election. Hold up, I can actually give you a more precise number... ... (excel loading) ...

    Between Dec 20 and Feb 16, Thucydides made 383 edits. Of those, all but ... FOURTEEN, were related to the article Russian Interference in US election. So that's actually 96.3% of edits related to this one article (that does include edits which are to related articles like Julian Assange but even those are a small % of his over all edits). I mean, if you click on his edit history it freakin' looks like this ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

    For the next 500 edits, between Feb 16 and June 88, he did a little better in terms of diversifying his interest with "only" 88% of his edits on Russian interference or related. I can calculate the % for the rest of the edits since then but I'm pretty sure you get the picture.

    To claim that "it doesn't take much of a look through Thucydides411's edit history to make the SPA characterisation look pretty thin" is absurd. It means that the person "looking" is, well, NOT looking or that they are pretending something is true when it's not.

    I'd really appreciate it if GoldenRing started bothering to actually look at the diffs and the evidence before opinin' or administratin' in the future. So far their words and action suggest a very cavalier attitude towards both. Volunteer Marek  17:46, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

    My statement quoted below quoted by Darouet (16:33) is most certainly NOT a personal attack. "Clearly" or otherwise. It's simply a statement describing why Thucydides411 actions on the article have been disruptive and why he has never managed to get a consensus for any of their edits. This is a user who rejects the idea of the article itself full stop. And correspondingly they reject what virtually all reliable sources have to say on the subject. Unsurprisingly then, whenever reliable sources are presented, he simply rejects them. That is not my problem. That is Thucydides411 problem.

    Note also that Darouet disingenuously omitted the first part of my statement which discusses the content under discourse directly. This is a straight up attempt at misrepresentation and constitutes WP:ASPERSIONS

    I also don't appreciate Darouet making this false accusation. Accusing others of making personal attacks when they're clearly not, is itself a personal attack.

    All that Darouet's statement shows is that there have been multiple editors (several more could easily be added) who have gotten extremely frustrated with Thucydides WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behavior on the talk page. This also addresses the point raised below by MASEM - yes, the talk page is for discussing. But when you keep discussing, and discussing, and discussing, and discussing and can never get anywhere... well, there's obviously a problem. And dollars to Deutschemarks say that it's the one guy who keeps bringing up the same stuff over and over and over and over again, well after everyone else has moved on. And that'd be Thucidedes411. Volunteer Marek  04:44, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

    Also look at Darouet's claim that " Also note that MrX accused Thucydides411 of WP:TE, when in the course of the RfC, a majority of editors on the page would agree with Thucydides, and not MrX". This is also completely FALSE. At the time the comment was written there were TWO "Supports". There was one "ironic" Support (a violation of WP:POINT in fact). There was one editor (Slatersteven) who was on the fence. Then there was myself and Mr.X who both expressed support although neither one of us had yet to !vote. Then there was Thucydides411, a lone "oppose". That is most definetly not a situation where "a majority of editors on the page would agree with Thucydides, and not MrX". Quite the opposite in fact. Given the blatant falsehood of this claim, and the previous one, I don't know if ANYTHING Darouet claims in his comment should be taken at face value. Volunteer Marek  04:54, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by Darouet

    At the end of August, MrX stated that they had begun a case against Thucydides411. That was on the same day MrX launched an RfC, asking if communications between Felix Sater, a Putin aid, and a Trump lawyer should be in in the article . Thucydides411 voted to oppose inclusion and ultimately, Sandstein closed the RfC noting that there was no consensus to include the communication.

    I think the discussion that occurred at that RfC is fairly representative of the vitriol Thucydides411 has faced by a few editors on the page (notably by the complainants here). James J. Lambden writes that Thucydides411 is repeatedly the target of harassment by 1) a personal attack, 2) Thucydides’ response, which is then 3) removed or 4) used against them in an enforcement proceeding. Every one of those events occurs in the RfC. The RfC discussion also demonstrates that what GoldenRing and Masem write is spot on about how this issue is not one-sided.

    On the same day MrX launched the RfC, Thucydides411 described the Sater communication in the “Threaded discussion” section of the RfC,

    • 16:19, Thucydides411 : “It also doesn't seem to involve any actions taken by the Russian government. Russian actions are, after all, the topic this article purports to cover.”

    This is the response by Volunteer Marek, MrX, and SPECIFICO:

    • 16:33, Volunteer Marek : “…The problem here for you is that you reject the idea of Russian interference a priori. So to YOU whenever a source tries to explain the WHY and HOW Russian interference happened, of course you're going to think it's not irrelevant because you don't such a thing happened in the first place. But that is YOUR own POV, that is YOU trying to impose your personal opinions on the article, that is YOU refusing to follow the policy of reliable sources. That is YOU breaking Misplaced Pages policy and now, edit warring in contravention of it. Not clear why we should put up with this.”
    VM’s comment is clearly a personal attack. It’s not horrible in the context of American Politics, but it personalizes the dispute and is clearly disruptive.
    • 17:01, Thucydides411 : "Capitalizing random words doesn't make your point any clearer. This material isn't relevant, but you're trying to coatrack it into the article. And really, you're the last person who should be throwing around accusations of POV-pushing or policy violation."
    • (SPECIFICO removes Thucydides411’s comment as a personal attack but not Volunteer Marek’s ; Thucydides411 restores their comment )
    Demonstrating exactly what Lambden describes: removing Thucydides' response defending themself, but not the attack on them.
    • 21:13, Volunteer Marek : "They're not "random". The capitalization stress the "YOU", as in Thucydides411, for a reason - to emphasize that YOU are trying to cram your own personal opinions down everyone's throat here, rather than relying on reliable sources per WP:RS. It's gone on long enough."
    • 17:25, MrX : "Volunteer Marek is exactly right. Thucydides411 is engaged in long-term tendentious editing on this article. His conduct should be reviewed at WP:AE. I began documenting a case three months ago, but unfortunately, I've been too busy to complete and file it."
    Note that MrX created this sandbox page dedicated to Thucydides411 in May 2017 (the initial documentation included zero diffs), promising some kind of future enforcement action without evidence. MrX left that creepy page, User:MrX/T, in their sandbox for 5+ months (it’s still there). Also note that MrX accused Thucydides411 of WP:TE, when in the course of the RfC, a majority of editors on the page would agree with Thucydides, and not MrX.
    • 23:08, SPECIFICO : "Thuc, please keep your "personal opinions" off this page. WP editing is not about anybody's opinions. It's about conveying the weight of RS discourse on the subject. And by "subject" we mean the subject of this article, which -- as you know -- is not "alleged Russian interference..." RS tell us in some detail that psy-ops to create chatter among folks in Trump's circle is Russian interference. I'm not going to repeat the details here, because the current discussion is more limited in scope. All these Russian-Trumpan connections are understood by RS accounts to be elements of the extensive and wildly successful psy-ops campaign."
    This isn’t easy to parse, but it’s a totally unconstructive response to Thucydides411’s comment.

    The full exchange (including comments made on other days) can be viewed here.

    In brief, all of these editors — those making a case here against Thucydides411 — have been quick to turn content conversations into personal attacks in the past, have failed to assume good faith, and this conduct has helped produce a toxic environment on the page. In that context this complaint comes across as hypocritical, and an effort to force Thucydides411 to stop interacting at the page when plenty of editors there (and the editorial board of the BBC) agree that allegations of Russian interference, whatever their merit or whatever the extent of interference, be described as such. -Darouet (talk) 00:02, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by Objective3000

    I fear I won’t be a useful contributor to this complaint – but wanted to add my one penny. Thucydides411 has spent just shy of a year attempting to weaken the article Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections by suggesting that there is little evidence of such and that those that will not accept their view are biased. The editor has consistently claimed that RS use the word ‘’alleged’’. Only, one by one, RS have dropped use of that word. I think we’re down to one out of the six sources that the editor has continued to claim use the word. And yet, they still claim it is in general use. The editor has also spent this time attempting to add a criticism from a writer against one of the pieces of evidence. All of these attempts have failed to gain consensus. But, we are drawn into the exact same debate time and time again. The original report is now just a tiny fraction of the evidence, and yet the editor continues to argue this one point. I’d give diffs; but this is difficult considering the 622 edits the editor has made to this articles talk. This represents a time-sink that doesn’t appear to have aided the article in nearly a year. O3000 (talk) 01:48, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

    Result concerning Thucydides411

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • This thread was temporarily closed between 18:12, 14 November 2017‎ UTC and 14:31, 17 November 2017 UTC. In the meantime, the related AN/I thread was closed without action. I have not read it because most everything at AN/I is a mess. The conduct reported here is in and of itself not terribly bad, but the user has two previous related sanctions. Their personal attacks and edit-warring about them constitute sanctionable misconduct. I recommend a three-month topic ban from Russia-US relations including election-related matters.  Sandstein  16:08, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
    • I agree sanctions are appropriate here, though I'm less convinced it's one-sided. VM's comment Thucydides411 was responding to in the edit warring linked above is perhaps a borderline case, but comments like the last paragraph of this are pretty clear that VM is casting aspersions and personalising this dispute (it doesn't take much of a look through Thucydides411's edit history to make the SPA characterisation look pretty thin).VM is already subject to a one-month topic ban from everything Trump-related and I think that is sufficient as topic bans go for now; I'd also be in favour of an IBAN between Volunteer Marek and Thucydides411 for a bit longer than the topic bans, to make them ease back into the topic without immediately rubbing against each other. GoldenRing (talk) 17:14, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
    • As I mentioned at the AN/I thread, while Thucydides411 should not be edit warring on talk pages in this manner, there are concerns that the removed comments made by Thucydides (which are clearly PAs) had been made in response to other clear PAs by VM and others, which those admins monitoring the page did not remove along with Thucydides. This creates understandable frustration which leads to the EWing behavior if one is singularly being picked out. The actions of several editors all around created a bad situation that it is hard to singularly take Thucydides' actions alone as the problem, hence trouts all around and warnings to all that PAs need to be avoided, period.
    I will also note particularly in comment to VM's point that Thucydides' has overwhelming spent a lot of time at the talk page for the article, that's exactly what a talk page is for. I know exactly the situation that Thucydides is in from my own experience with GG where I was being criticized for using the talk page as a talk page, primarily because I was not arguing along the lines of the majority of users on the page and required some significant review of the circumstances to present the topic. That's the whole purpose of talk pages to try to resolve issues and not just simply a !vote or who can shout the loudest. Now, there is the WP:TE issue, I agree Thucydides' is clearly engaging in that type of behavior and per my own experience strongly recommend taking a voluntary break from that topic, if a topic ban/block is not otherwise engaged. --MASEM (t) 18:07, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
    • Considering the admin comments above, there seems to be little interest in sanctioning Thucydides411 alone, even though their editing is considered problematic. I don't think that we have the basis, in the form of a well-presented case, for sanctions against others at this time. Accordingly, unless admins object, I'll close this as no action soon.  Sandstein  10:00, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
      • @Sandstein: I do object. I think your proposed topic ban of Thucydides411 is good and necessary for this topic at this time. I don't think it would be helpful for this to just be closed with no action. Others who are part of the same general dispute have recently been T-banned for one month so maybe you might argue proportionality urges a similar duration, but I don't think no action is the right outcome here.Speaking of others who are part of the same general dispute, unless I'm very much mistaken, Volunteer Marek is subject to a one-month topic ban from all edits and articles related to Donald Trump and as far as I can see his edits here are a blatant violation of it. He hasn't even made an attempt to claim that they are covered by BANEX, and anyway they are not. As I proposed an IBAN we might eek out a small exemption for discussing that, but any more general discussion of Tnucydides411's actions should result in a short block (48 hours?) to enforce the ban. GoldenRing (talk) 10:54, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
      • I'll add as well that I'm not very impressed with VM cherry-picking another editor's history in an attempt to substantiate a personal attack. Curiously enough, I had looked at Thucydides411's edit history before making that remark; what I didn't do was go back to January to find the worst-looking bit of it. What I looked at was this. Yes, he edits AP2 articles quite a bit; so do lots of editors. That doesn't make them SPAs. GoldenRing (talk) 10:59, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
        • @GoldenRing: Then as far as I'm concerned you're free to close this with any sanctions concerning Thucydides411 you deem appropriate. As to Volunteer Marek, they are banned "from all edits and articles related to Donald Trump". As far as I can tell, their edits here are not related to Trump, but to Thucydides411.  Sandstein  11:16, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
          • I also object to closing with no action, and support the three-month topic ban from Russia-US relations including election-related matters which Sandstein originally proposed. I don't see Volunteer Marek's comments here as warranting a sanction; it's far-fetched to suggest they violate his topic ban from Donald Trump. Bishonen | talk 11:54, 20 November 2017 (UTC).

    Groupuscule

    Groupuscule is indefinitely topic-banned from from genetically modified organisms. They are invited to appeal the ban after three months and explain how they intend to change their approach to editing in this topic area.  Sandstein  08:24, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Groupuscule

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Kingofaces43 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:30, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Groupuscule (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced

    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#Casting_aspersions

    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#Discretionary_Sanctions

    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#1RR_imposed

    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. Oct. 2 The evidence strongly suggests that Monsanto has not abandoned its practice of using sockpuppet identities (and paid shills) online to promote their point of view. Unfortunately, then, this is not only an important topic for an article, but an existential threat to Misplaced Pages itself . . .
    2. Oct. 10 More aspersions of Monsanto shills: Do they suppose that Monsanto's notorious public relations operatives are inactive on Misplaced Pages?
    3. Oct. 13 Industry influence on GMO articles: I suppose you know that Monsanto historically uses a sophisticated system of internet sockpuppets to control public discourse on topics of interest? and two replies regarding glyphosate and apparent industry influence on genetic engineering articles
    4. Nov. 18 Edit warring (initial addition by Groupuscule, I reverted with explanation, Groupuscule reverts it back in with no attempt at discussion. This note during Arbcom stated the combo of DS and 1RR were supposed to prevent exactly this type of gaming.
    5. Nov. 18 Battleground mentality directed at editors: Your actions here lead me to suspect that you simply don't want this noteworthy and verifiable information included on Misplaced Pages. . .
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    This editor, who has somewhat recently re-entered the topic, has had long-term problems with WP:ADVOCACY in the GMO/pesticide topic as noted in a recent AfD made by Groupuscule (pinging jps, Capeo, and Delta13C since your posts are being mentioned at AE). The AFD is essentially a WP:SNOW keep in part due to editors noting the POV issues by the editor in the nomination, which shows we're getting some wider community frustration with this editor's behavior.

    Special note should be taken of the WP:ASPERSIONS principle we wrote at the GMO ArbCom because we were having problems with editors engaging in the shill gambit, a common problem with fringe advocacy in this topic, and also because editors with that mentality also tend to be otherwise disruptive. SageRad, David Tornheim, EllenCT, and Cathry are good examples of editors topic-banned or eventually site-banned under the aspersions principle or related to this kind of mentality.

    In the diffs and edit summaries above, there is a lot of mention by Groupuscule of Monsanto controlling articles, etc. As a reminder, David Tornheim was topic-banned for doing exactly the above while purposely avoiding mentioning editor names to try to game the aspersions principle. This diff also shows they consider the scientific consensus on GMO safety "mythical" (establishing part of the editor POV problem). Given that we're getting this acute of issues now that Groupuscule is editing in the topic again, I would suggest a standard topic-ban (worded the same as the DS notice topics) to prevent further disruption. We've seen this behavior unfold many times already in the topic, and the DS and aspersions principle were meant to tamp down hard on the disruption and POV editing caused by this. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:30, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

    Sandstein, Bishonen, GoldenRing, and other admins, two things I'd ask to consider about a potential 3-month topic-ban:
    One is that Groupuscule has more of a sporadic but acute editing history in the topic. 3 months wouldn't really be outside the range of breaks they normally take from the topic.
    The other is whether we can realistically expect the behavior to improve in the topic after 3 months? Your conversation so far has to some degree paralleled the admin discussion at the David Tornheim case where lesser sanctions were at first considered for similar behavior until admins realized the problem was too likely to just resurface later given the editor mentality.
    Maybe to address those issues if a 3-month time period is ultimately the consensus is to require an active appeal at 3-months showing the editor is actually recognizant of the behavior issues rather than passively letting it expire? That would seem to balance behavior concerns with this being a first sanction. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:33, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested


    Discussion concerning Groupuscule

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Groupuscule

    Readers can judge for themselves who indeed has cast aspersions. All the best, groupuscule (talk) 00:54, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

    Hello, please allow me to clarify a few things and give my perspective on some of these new allegations.

    • 1. The decision on "casting aspersions" says "an editor must not accuse another of misbehavior without evidence". I have done nothing of the sort. I have commented in general—not even in the course of content discussions, but on user talk pages where the discussion came up— that I think the biotech industry's PR apparatus probably extends to Misplaced Pages. This is not the same as avoiding or poisoning discussion by calling one's interlocutor a shill.
    • 2. Jps accuses me of misrepresenting the sources about Monsanto's online sockpuppets. Three articles and a book. I take such an accusation very seriously, and I would encourage people to read the articles and the passage in the book. Monbiot wrote that "the Bivings Group, a PR company contracted to Monsanto, had invented fake citizens to post messages on internet listservers". He also traced one of the accounts to the Monsanto domain itself. "Here's a link to the book on Google Books; see what you think. If I didn't represent this source falsely, I think that casts the situation in a different light, especially considering Kingofaces and jps's insistence on deleting this information. Notice that they deleted it wholesale rather than trying to clarify something they thought was inaccurate.
      • Notice that Kingofaces followed, one might say stalked, me to the page on sockpuppets specifically to revert me. And now jps has done the same.
      • Notice also that during this process both the above users have cast some rather more pointed aspersions at me, for example accusing me of making a "shill gambit" (which I did not do, as part of any argument over content) and linking to an outside page with a crazy-looking Alex Jones riding on a magic carpet. I find this insulting and inappropriate.
    • 3. I didn't create the article on Monsanto's public relations activities in response to the discussion at "GMO conspiracy theories". I have been planning to do it for a while, as I wrote in the October 2 quoted by Kingofaces above! So in this case the accusation is not only baseless but demonstrably false.
    • 4. The userpage on scientific consensus was created four years ago as part of a discussion over the well-known "scientific consensus" statement on genetic engineering articles. It was deleted from a talk page so I moved it to userspace and expanded it. It represents research and argumentation concerning how Misplaced Pages should deal with this topic. It's not a manifesto. It's not my personal opinion on the subject. It was nominated for deletion back then and survived.

    So, I really think I am not guilty of breaking any policy, and furthermore, that anyone examining my edits as a whole will find that I have been polite, diplomatic, and generally undisruptive throughout. Thanks for taking the time to examine this issue closely. groupuscule (talk) 20:01, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by Capeo

    Just to clarify why I felt the AFD nomination was pointy at best: a quick perusal of Groupsicle's editing in the GMO area, including the large section currently on their talk page, make's their POV on the subject is clear. Having a POV is not an issue of course. Editing solely from that POV is though. Nominating a long-standing article for deletion, without even an attempt to first suggest improvements on the talk page, is pointy. When it's clear it's going to be a SNOW keep then proceeding to instead make a POV-fork article is even pointier. A topic ban from GMO's is probably warranted here. Capeo (talk) 17:19, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

    The edits to Sockpuppet (Internet) have now really fell into pointy-as-all-hell territory. As an aside, when it comes to GMO related articles now, I'll always defer to the opinion of Tryptofish. After the Arbcom case, the RFC, I've lost all taste for dealing with same arguments over and over, the same accusations, the same bad sources. I still watch the pages, and may revert obvious bad edits, but what watching those pages has really shown me is that Trypto has the patience of a saint. Trypto is pretty much always trying to find some area of conciliation, some area where common ground can be met and a beneficial edit can be made, to a degree I couldn't. I'd be likely be an asshole in my frustration of dealing with same thing over an over. Point being, Tryptofish's suggestion of a topic ban here, to me, just solidifies my opinion that it's warranted. Capeo (talk) 03:06, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

    The edit that JPS points out has moved into the realm of pure fabrication. There is nothing in those sources, which are not great to begin with, that support the accusatory edit made. Capeo (talk) 04:08, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by jps

    If you want to learn about the user's WP:ACTIVIST agenda, read no further than this manifesto written by the user:User:Groupuscule/GMO. It's an obsession to skew Misplaced Pages with respect to this subject... seems clear to me. I find it particularly interesting that the sources cited are very poor (many are to journals that are predatory, and references to discredited research abound). It's a real waste of time. jps (talk) 19:04, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

    I just removed this addition by Groupuscule to the Monsanto page which was sourced to articles that never made the full accusations as was put in plain text. I'm not a big fan of people trying to mislead readers like this. Is this an attempt to flame out before the banhammer comes down? jps (talk) 03:51, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by Tryptofish

    I'm inclined to cut editors a lot of slack as to what they say in user talk, so the question for me is whether personal opinions have spilled over into content in a disruptive way. And what that comes down to is (1) making an AfD nomination that was snow-rejected by the community, (2) creating a sort of tit-for-tat article as an obvious rebuttal to the not-deleted page, and (3) making the edits at Sockpuppet (Internet), which, while not violating 1RR, also disregard WP:BRD under DS conditions. The first two have been time-wasters for other editors, and the third, although a single incident that by itself probably doesn't warrant sanctions, is not encouraging. I can see an argument for letting this go with a stern warning, and I can also see an argument, given the statements of intention in user space, including an obvious belief that other editors are "shills" as well as an obvious disdain for the ArbCom decision, that a topic ban now will avoid an inevitable topic ban later. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:23, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

    @Capeo: thank you very much for the kind words, much appreciated. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:24, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
    @Admins: I think that Sandstein correctly describes the situation as weighing conduct so far, that really hasn't been that bad, against a high probability that future conduct would likely just end up back here at AE. I feel too involved to be able to tell you how to balance that. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:28, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by dialectric

    Kingofaces’ filing seeks to associate Groupuscule with other editors who have been topic banned from the GMO area since the 2015 arbcom case. This attempt at association ignores significant differences between this case and past cases in the area.

    1. 4 of 5 diffs in the filing are from Groupuscule’s talk page. User talk pages are generally given more freedom than WP pages, and this editor’s very general comments on their own talk page about possible Monsanto promotional activity are not equivalent to SageRad or David Tornheim’s comments which were (A) on article talk pages and dispute resolution forums, and (B) called out specific editors and edits.

    2. Groupuscule has long been inactive from the GMO area, and may have been unaware of the arbcom case; the 1st diff in this filing predates the Discretionary Sanctions notice by 8 days. Groupuscule’s single revert on Sockpuppet (Internet) does not violate 1RR, and in that instance Kingofaces43 did not provide a coherent, policy-based rationale for his revert, or an explanation on the talk page. Nominating a single page for deletion is not disruptive behavior, even if the result is a snow-keep. If there is a pattern of pointed afd's, that could be actionable.

    Groupuscule is a valuable contributor with 3000+ edits over 10+ years. This user at least deserves a warning prior to a subject block, when the call for that block has been drawn largely from comments posted to that user's own user space.Dialectric (talk) 20:14, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Groupuscule

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • In and of themselves, the edits aren't terribly problematic, but as a group and together with the other evidence in the complaint I do get the impression that Groupuscule is here primarily to promote their own view of the issue, often in a confrontational manner and by insinuating that other editors with a different view are paid sockpuppets. This conduct is not compatible with editing in a high-tension topic area subject to discretionary sanctions. I am therefore considering a 3-month topic ban.  Sandstein  10:06, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
    • Persistent shill aspersions in this area are unacceptable, and there's obviously tendentious editing generally. I support a topic ban of at least three months. Bishonen | talk 12:03, 20 November 2017 (UTC).
    • I agree with Sandstein and Bishonen; a TBAN is appropriate here. If this were not a first sanction I'd argue for longer than three months, but it is their first so I think they should be given a chance to learn from it; two to three months seems appropriate. I also think we should delete User:Groupuscule/GMO; it is at least skirting NOTWEBHOST and it's unlikely to be helpful in the context of a topic ban (though I note it hasn't been edited in more than two years). GoldenRing (talk) 12:53, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
    • Taking into consideration the above, Groupuscule is indefinitely topic-banned from from genetically modified organisms. They are invited to appeal the ban after three months and explain how they intend to change their approach to editing in this topic area.  Sandstein  08:24, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

    Anythingyouwant

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Anythingyouwant

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:02, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Anythingyouwant (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2 :
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    2. Restoring text challenged by reversion


    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    1. Previously banned from post 1935 American politics


    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)


    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    I'm not sure if this is a 1RR violation, but it is obviously a violation of the "consensus required" provision which is in effect on the page and which it seems admins have decided needs enforcing. The edit was obviously challenged by reversion. The claim that this was a BLP issue is spurious. See also the edit summaries by User:MrX and User:MelanieN . See also discussion on talk page. In particular see comments by MrX, MelanieN and User:Artw in that discussion. Also this comment claims the text says something it doesn't actually say. Also . Also see this comment which brings up WP:TRUTH and WP:GREATWRONGS.  Volunteer Marek  04:02, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

    When an editor (me) does what two other editors request - I did not request for you to make that edit and afaict, neither did MrX. I think that was pretty clear from both our comments. Volunteer Marek  09:36, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Anythingyouwant

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Anythingyouwant

    I was indeed banned from post-1932 politics; it was for less than two weeks, from 27 October 2016 to 9 November 2016. The present article is controversial, and my effort here was simply to conform it to reliable sources like any article should be. There is no allegation of a 1RR violation here, and I didn't violate 1RR. The issue here is whether I reinstated an edit that was challenged by User:MrX. I did not.

    My edit #1, at 22:20 on 25 November 2017 (with my added language in bold) said that the BLP subject:

    did not deny approaching or dating teenagers above the age of consent.

    References

    1. Borchers, Callum. “Roy Moore’s open letter to Sean Hannity, annotated”, Washington Post (November 16, 2017): “I adamantly deny the allegations of Leigh Corfman and Beverly Nelson, did not date underage girls, and have taken steps to begin a civil action for defamation.”

    The edit summary of User:MrX at 22:59 on 25 November 2017 said, “The source does not say that, and this would be too much detail for the lead anyway.” To address his primary objection, I more closely tracked the language of the source (which is quoted in the footnote), so there would be no way anyone could dispute that I was adhering closely to the source.

    So, my edit #2 at 01:03 on 26 November 2017(with my added language in bold) said that the BLP subject:

    did not deny approaching or dating teenagers who were not underage.

    References

    1. Borchers, Callum. “Roy Moore’s open letter to Sean Hannity, annotated”, Washington Post (November 16, 2017): “I adamantly deny the allegations of Leigh Corfman and Beverly Nelson, did not date underage girls, and have taken steps to begin a civil action for defamation.”

    I did not reinstate any edit of mine, but rather the second edit of mine used not a single word that my first edit used, and the second edit much more closely tracked the source using verbatim language ("underage") from the source, to meet MrX's previous objection that "the source does not say that", as well as to meet User:Volunteer Marek's apparent preference for explicitly saying "underage". See VM's edit at 00:56, 26 November 2017. When an editor (me) does what two other editors request, it kind of seems like a game of gotcha for one of them to file a complaint about it. Incidentally, my second edit used 20% fewer words (four instead of five), given that MrX had said the first edit was too long.

    I will add a paragraph below in reply to Melanie. If this thing turns into a typical Misplaced Pages pile-on, so be it, but I am not inclined to participate much more. I feel that the complaint is frivolous, and shouldn't be used as a back door for all kinds of separate old complaints about separate old matters. Anyway, feel free to visit my user talk to request or advise further participation or response from me. Thanks. Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:14, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

    @User:MelanieN, I did not visit the user talk page of User:MrX about this matter and haven't visited his user talk in many months (if not years) despite frequent disagreements with him. None of the diffs or edits discussed above were by MelanieN, but she is correct that I visited her user talk today, because I did not think that what I had to say would be appropriate for article talk (if you want to read what we discussed, see the last section). The lead of this BLP presently says the BLP subject "did not deny approaching or dating teenagers." However, in the reference I already quoted above, the BLP subject partly denied that exact thing. So I was trying to make the lead conform better to the sources, and it had nothing to do with righting great wrongs, unless perhaps you consider violating Misplaced Pages policy a "great wrong". I choose not to rely upon WP:BLP at this time, in responding to the present complaint, because I do not want to be seen as using the BLP policy as some kind of habitual excuse, though I think such a view would be mistaken. Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:14, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
    @User:Vanamonde93, I also would not support a sentence of the form "
    @User:Vanamonde93, you write "So your insistence on including 'but not rape' troubles me." I have insisted upon no such thing. Those words you attribute to me ("but not rape") were never said by me, so please don't attribute them to me anymore, thanks. They were words of User:MelanieN, not me, and I have insisted upon no such language at the Roy Moore article. I have not tried to change the language in that BLP regarding "sexual assault" one iota, either by proposing a specific change at the article's talk page, or by making an actual edit. Let me tell you why. One of the accusations is that the BLP subject shoved the head of an underage girl toward his crotch, and I have no problem characterizing that as an allegation of sexual assault without elaboration, because it's attempted rape. But if we were instead talking about a butt grab being characterized as "sexual assault" by a reliable source, then we absolutely would need to say in the BLP that it's an allegation of sexual assault while also saying what kind of sexual assault. Don't you think people often construe the term "sexual assault" to be something more heinous than a butt grab? Again, this is all hypothetical, because I have not so far objected to the language in the BLP about "sexual assault", it's not part of the present complaint, and you're quoting someone while incorrectly attributing it to me. In the case of the butt grab, I would never (ever, ever) say "but it wasn't rape" and instead might say something like "committed sexual assault by grabbing a woman's posterior" without mentioning rape at all. Anythingyouwant (talk) 07:23, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
    @User:EvergreenFir, since 1RR was not part of the complaint, I did not explain above why there was no 1RR violation. The reason is that the first of my two edits was not a revert, even if you consider the second one to be. The second edit did not have one word in common with the first edit, unless you count the footnote, which I guess makes the second one a revert, but still the first one isn't. Anythingyouwant (talk) 07:54, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

    @User:MrX, you say that the first of my two edits that are the basis of this complain was a revert. That’s incorrect. It’s true that the sentence in the lead was previously edited to say “but did not deny approaching or dating teenagers 16 or older.“ The first of my two edits did not mention 16 or being older than 16, butcrather referred to the age of consent as numerous reliable sources do. Anyway, it continues to amaze me that you apparently continue this effort to make readers think Moore never denied dating teenagers under the age of consent, which would have been illegal. You are deliberately attempting to make our lead be dishonest. I don’t believe your rationalizations one bit. Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:54, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by SPECIFICO

    At the time of Anythingyouwant's previous short-term TBAN from American Politics (specified to end after the election) I was skeptical that the behavior would get any better after the election. Sure enough it has not. If anything it's gotten worse. As I said at the time we discussed that 2016 complaint, this behavior appears to be an extension of this editor's disruptive behavior relating to Abortion, for which Arbcom imposed a permanent TBAN. As is widely reported, there are many diehard supporters of the Trump Administration and the Republican congressional majority who are motivated largely or entirely by the expectation that Trump and the Republican senate will appoint judges and pursue policies to promote "pro-life" policies and judicial rulings. Anythingyouwant is banned from pages having to do with "Abortion, broadly construed" and given Anythingyouwant's demonstrably extreme and egregious POV editing in that topic, I think that this should have been interpreted to include any aspect of American Politics that relates to POV-pushing that might favor limiting womens' health care. This would include anything related to the Trump Admininstration, the Congress, the Judiciary, or US elections. Also note that, per ARBAP2, repeated violations are to be met with escalating remedies. A warning here would mean the escalator is going down. SPECIFICO talk 04:19, 26 November 2017 (UTC) Updated, clarified. 15:48, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by involved MelanieN

    Regarding these edits, I chided Anythingyouwant in two places - the article talk page and my own talk page - for unilaterally inserting new language into a disputed section of the article without proposing it first at the talk page, where that very issue is under active discussion. I considered this to be against Misplaced Pages's tradition of consensus. I reverted his addition and told him to get agreement on the talk page first. I did not consider this action of his to be a technical AE violation, but I am WP:INVOLVED at that article so this should not be regarded as administrator opinion. I note that he displayed here two longstanding habits of his: claiming that his edits are necessary to correct "blatant BLP violations", and going to the other person's user talk page to continue the argument privately. --MelanieN (talk) 04:40, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by Atsme

    I reviewed the edits, and Anything's first edit was an add-on not a revert. He probably should've reverted it from the lede, and moved it into the body after rewriting it to make it compliant with BLP and NPOV. I'm dismayed and somewhat surprised that Volunteer Marek and SPECIFICO are even here after recently being warned in another AE case "to edit collegially and assume good faith." It doesn't appear either have AGF in this situation. The problem I see at the article is a rather serious BLP coatrack issue which justifies what Anything attempted to do. Allegations involving such a serious matter certainly do not belong in the lede of a BLP, and cannot be viewed as anything but BLP coatrack and POV considering the political aspects and upcoming elections. WP:LABEL states that value laden labels may, and in this case did express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. The 1st cited source doesn't fully support what was written in the article, and in fact, it appears WP:SYNTH was used because 3 different sources were used and statements cherrypicked to create the allegation that is written in the lede. That is noncompliance with NPOV; therefore, it is also a violation of BLP - you cannot separate the two because BLP requires strict adherence to NPOV. We're also dealing with WP:RECENTISM, WP:NOTNEWS and analytical speculation by journalists. WP:BLP policy requires that we take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Misplaced Pages page. Such material requires a high degree of sensitivity, and strict adherence to Misplaced Pages's three core content policies WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:OR, all of which are inseparable from BLP policy; therefore, in instances when material is challenged as noncompliant as what Anything did here, it was the right thing to do. 05:34, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

    If the article does prove to be a WP:POVFORK or WP:ATTACKPAGE which makes it noncompliant with BLP, focusing on Anything's two edits seems rather trivial. The article is nothing but allegation after allegation, and since none of the allegations can be/have been proven, this situation gives off the smell of a politician being tried in the court of public opinion while WP is laying down the scaffolding. The man has denied the allegations, yet weight was given to a single comment he made in an exclusive interview on Hannity (primary source) - and the pundits went wild with their analytical speculation - hardly what I consider fact-based material. The timing of these allegations comes at a time just prior to an important election in that state - there are articles on WP about Trump that attempt to make the entire focus about the timing - so where is our "editorial discretion" now? Where is the "high degree of sensitivity" we're supposed to apply when it comes to such issues? The article even includes the names of alleged victims (see WP:BLPNAME) who purportedly were under age at the time. How is that not a BLP vio? The way the story is being handled by MSM smells a lot like a newsy political hit piece that focuses on alleged incidents purportedly that took place decades ago. Oh, and since there is no such article about Al Franken considering he admitted to the conduct, how can we deny political motivation behind any of the Moore activity? Based on my understanding of NPOV and BLP, this case should be about restoring the BLP issues after they were challenged. I am truly disappointed over the way this case is being handled. 15:58, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by DHeyward

    This is a specious filing. This edit , offered as a "violation" is arguably a necessary edit to avoid the implication of criminal activity. Having a relationship with a nineteen-year-old is legally much different than having a relationship with a fifteen-year-old. The edit clearly clarified that "teen" isn't the boundary for consent. Opposing that edit should be a BLP violation and the editor reverting that edit should be sanctioned for a BLP violation. That edit was not a politically motivated or biased edit. The original text was "but did not deny approaching or dating teenagers." and the text added was "but did not deny approaching or dating teenagers above the age of consent." Teenagers that are 18 or 19 are not "girls" and the distinction is necessary and proper given that the construct is around "girls." It did not defend Moore against any impropriety that may have occurred or put any other living person in a negative light. The person reverting or opposing that edit should at least be warned and Anythingyouwant commended for clarifying a comment that implied criminal activity. --DHeyward (talk) 06:27, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

    Vanamonde your statement is confusing. Are you making a nuanced distinction between "sexual assault" and "rape" of underage girls? Under what context would you make that distinction and how does it not have BLP implications? I am not aware of the distinctions you and your peers seem to be making. There are distinctions regarding consent however. A teenage girl cannot consent to sexual contact and all such contact is sexual assault. A teenage woman can consent to sexual contact and consensual contact is not sexual assault. Isn't "teenager" too vague a term to use given that it broadly encompasses acts that can interpreted as statutorily illegal if the impression is that "teenager" is being used to describe both women and girls? --DHeyward (talk) 07:29, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

    P.S. Vanamonde93 please change your signature to match your username. Admins in particular should not be difficult to ping because there is a mismatch in what is displayed. What's the point? --DHeyward (talk) 07:34, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by uninvolved EvergreenFir

    Saw this in my watchlist and thought I'd comment while trying to fall asleep.

    This appears to be a 1RR violation to me. Anythinguyouwant suggests that because the material was not restored verbatim it does not constitute restoration/reversion. However, from WP:EW, "A "revert" means any edit (or administrative action) that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material" (emphasis added). The meaning of the material remained the same and the same reference was used. The third edit further violates the "consensus required" part of the active remedy.

    Unless someone can demonstrate this is a persistent problem (an incident a year ago doesn't make this persistent but does show this an issue in this topic), I'm inclined to think a formal warning would be best. EvergreenFir (talk) 07:49, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by Dervorguilla

    @Vanamonde93: Yes, it may be true that a neutral sentence would not be "

    Statement by Kingsindian

    I have no comment on the complaint, but a comment about TonyBallioni's statement that the "consensus required" provision is a tool to enforce WP:ONUS and WP:BLP, a claim which does not make any sense. WP:ONUS is a much older and well-established policy and is applicable site-wide. One does not need any further rules to "enforce" it. And most areas on Misplaced Pages seem to work fine without this extra rule.

    The main problem with the "consensus required" provision is that most of the time on Misplaced Pages, consensus is, by explicit policy, silent and implicit, and is not always a bright line. For instance, someone WP:BOLDly adds content to the page, someone else objects, the first person rephrases, and so on. Sometimes this is hashed out on the talk page and someone else tries a phrasing which is acceptable to all. This is normal and desirable. The effect of this provision will be more of these kinds of complaints, nothing more. And, from my experience in ARBPIA, when one "side" gets sanctioned, there will be retaliatory complaints from the "other side".

    The version of 1RR used in ARBPIA is a clear, bright line: if an edit is reverted, the editor shouldn't reinstate the material within 24 hours. That is all that is required. The extra bureaucracy is needless and harmful. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 08:48, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

    It is unfortunate but not surprising that TonyBallioni does not see, or indeed even acknowledge any of the issues I raised. By all means, proceed to burn your fingers before learning to fear the flame. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:01, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by MrX

    On the talk page, I said that Anythingyouwant has repeatedly inserted the age of consent material (into the lead) without obtaining consensus. I want to back that up with evidence:

    This should clear up any doubt that his first edit yesterday was a reversion, of this edit by Nick845 made three days earlier. Obviously, the last four of these are also reinstating challenged edits without obtaining firm consensus on the talk page.

    A couple of editors seem intent on whitewashing the allegations against Moore. I'm particularly unimpressed with DHeyward's first ever edit to the article here.- MrX 14:25, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by MarkBernstein

    The proposition that the invocation of BLP was is “in good faith” is preposterous and insupportable. MarkBernstein (talk) 16:46, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Anythingyouwant

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • Took a look at this since I was pinged. Had I just seen that revert, I might have excused it; but I have to say I'm not impressed by some of the commentary on the talk page. In particular, a neutral sentence on Misplaced Pages might be "
      Anything, to be clear, I'm not terribly happy with the apparent attempts to use "teenagers" (which includes underage people) rather than a more precise category. But I do not see how that excuses what you have been trying to do. I am far from convinced that the general public sees rape and sexual assault to mean the same thing (I personally cannot think of any conversation I have had among my peers where somebody has had that misconception). So your insistence on including "but not rape" troubles me. To expand on what I have said above: a common pattern on articles about controversial political figures is that when a statement along the lines of "person X did this bad thing" is inserted, it is followed by "but they didn't do this other thing, which is worse". That, by its very nature, is coatracking, and not neutral. Vanamonde (talk) 07:05, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
    • No comment on the merits of the case, but confirming before I get asked by the regulars here that I did intentionally place the article under consensus required restrictions, and that should it be determined that they were violated, I think sanctions would be appropriate. Consensus required is simply giving admins the tools to enforce WP:ONUS, which is especially important on American politics and BLP articles. This is both, so enforcing that policy is especially important. TonyBallioni (talk) 07:20, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
      • Kingsindian: consensus required is a bright line to enforce ONUS and prevent edit warring just as 1RR is a bright line to enforce the edit warring policy. Having a policy predate a specific sanctions regime does not somehow mean that the sanctions aren’t a way of enforcing the policy. TonyBallioni (talk) 12:43, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
    • There are two issues I can see here: Anythingyouwant appears to have violated the consensus required provision in force on this page but claimed the BLP exemption. VM says this is "spurious" but other editors here agree with Anythingyouwant. I'm generally reluctant to sanction editors for complying with the BLP policy in good faith, even if consensus turns out to be against them. Anythingyouwant would have been well advised to report this to BLPN, perhaps, but I'm reluctant to sanction for this. The second is that MrX reverted the removal of material that was clearly challenged on good-faith BLP grounds. This would ordinarily be sanctionable under the DS in force for BLPs. I'm still undecided whether either of these warrants sanctions. GoldenRing (talk) 16:30, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

    Favonian

    Fails to state a case for arbitration enforcement. GoldenRing (talk) 16:16, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

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    I received an insulting email. I wanted to check my account for unblock. I think they got me wrong with someone. But my User-Agent is different from that person. I sent my request from here. otrs kept silent, And they did not give me a ticket.--Me choose (talk) 14:09, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

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