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RfC--lead

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Should Turkey be described as a Democratic and Parliamentary republic?

Democratic: No, Parliamentary Republic: Yes User:Seraphim System highlights Britannica's use of the words "Parliamentary Democracy" to describe Turkey. Tertiary sources like Britannica are useful for assessing where the consensus of the reliable sources lie. However, this does not mean we are strictly bound to follow what a tertiary source like Britannica states if the reliable secondary sources indicate otherwise. User:Icewhiz has highlighted numerous sources questioning Turkey's status as a democracy. He draws an important distinction between describing what Turkey "is" and what Turkey "is not." Failing to use the word "democracy" to describe Turkey in the lede, is not the same as the article denying that Turkey is a democracy. It is merely taking the position that there is sufficient uncertainty in the RS's to justify not stating it as an outright fact. This issue of uncertainty was also emphasised by other commenters in the previous RfC. As such I believe there is a consensus for not describing Turkey as a de facto democracy in the lede.

There was no opposition to the use of "Parliamentary Republic" to describe Turkey in this RfC. In the previous RfC there was some opposition, but no sources were provided and the arguments were based instead off of WP:OR. As such there is no consensus to deviate from the original status quo of describing Turkey as a parliamentary republic.

Should Turkey be described as Secular?

Yes Icewhiz has put forward an argument for why Turkey should not be described as secular in the lede. However, as Seraphim System points out, the argument is one based on WP:OR as opposed to the putting forward of reliable sources. There are sourced descriptions in the body of the article describing Turkey as secular in Misplaced Pages's voice. In the previous RfC, much of the discussion on secularism was again just people giving their own opinions and arguments, rather than providing sources. As such there is no consensus to deviate from the original status quo position of describing Turkey as secular.

Should Turkey be described as Unitary?

Yes Nobody objects to this one so finding consensus there is pretty straightforward. Turkey is very obviously not a federation.

Should Turkey be described as having a Diverse Cultural Heritage?

No No sources have been provided in this RfC or the previous RfC indicating otherwise. In the previous RfC people raised the issue of "diverse cultural heritage" being more puffery than an informative statement. In this RfC Icewhiz provided reliable sources showing why such a descriptor in the lede may be innapropriate. Seraphim System has stated that Icewhiz' argument here is WP:OR, but I can't really see why. Either way the issue is irrelevant, because the burden is on those who are trying to include the statement to show that is reliably sourced, not the oppposite. Brustopher (talk) 15:05, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Per the discussion and close in Talk:Turkey#RFC regarding a sentence in the lead and a subsequent mini-discussion in Talk:Turkey#Parliamentary Democracy, this RFC broadly reflects on:

Should we state in Misplaced Pages's voice that:--Turkey is a democratic, secular, unitary, parliamentary republic with a diverse cultural heritage or something alike in the lead?

There are 4 sections, corresponding to each of the 4 describers, with individual poser(s).

Thank you! Icewhiz (talk) 05:49, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

• Please indicate yes/no (and/or with short alternative wordings etc.) in each section, followed by any detailed elaborations under the corresponding section sub-headers.
• Also, please try to refrain from any original research.Please discuss the best outcome in accordance to the sources, already present at the article or that you may have newly brought.
• Pinging participants in previous RfC (semi-automated grep - if I missed anyone, please add): @Alexikoua: @AusLondonder: @EtienneDolet: @GGT: @Jeppiz: @KazekageTR: @Khirurg: @Mandruss: @Seraphim System: @Tiptoethrutheminefield: @Yerevantsi:Icewhiz (talk) 07:03, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
• Layout and wording of the RFC extensively added and reformatted/re-factored by Winged Blades of Godric at 08:15, 10 October 2017 (UTC).

Democratic and Parliamentary republic

• Specific Poser--

  • With reference to the Turkey#Politics section, can Turkey be stated just as democratic and parliamentary republic or parliamentary democracy" in the lead in WP's voice?
  • If not, do we omit any information rel. to the concept from the lead or shall we specifically mention and differentiate between the de-juro and it's current de-facto condition (w.r.t to concerns about democracy in the state, shift to presidential system after the referendum et al.)?
  • If, it is the second choice, how do we frame the sentence?
  • Can parliamentary democracy" and/or constitutional republic be used in the government type field at the infobox in the lead?Also see another parameter proposal for the same field at the Unitary sub-section

  Winged Blades of Godric 11:45, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

• Survey (Discussants, please just !vote, with desired phrasings(if any) under this header.For discussions, approach the discussion sub-header(s).
  • Omit Democracy (in any form in lead or body, sole exception being de-jure or self-declared status not in wiki's voice). While de-jure a democracy, the de-facto status is presently not supported by current RS. While it is relatively easy to pin down what Turkey IS NOT, it is complex (with possibly differing opinions) to state what it IS. If De-jure status is stated, we should also state the accepted current de-facto state of democracy in Trukey. Turkey is a hybrid regime per Democracy Index 2016 (Misplaced Pages cliff note version, actual report EIU democracy index (where it dropped substantially in its score in the past 5 years - some 0.7 points)). Freedom house agrees as well . Trajectory per recent coverage in RS shows this is unlikely to improve (and quite possibly will decline) in the next yearly reports - .12:06, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

• Discussion

Secular

• Specific Poser--

  • In reference to the Turkey#Religion section, can Turkey be stated as secular in the lead in WP's voice?

  Winged Blades of Godric 11:45, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

• Discussion

Unitary

• Specific Poser--

  • Can Turkey be stated as unitary in the lead in WP's voice?
  • Can unitary" be used in the government type parameter at the infobox in the lead?Also see another parameter proposal for the same field at the Democratic and Parliamentary republic sub-section
  • It may be noted that in the prev. RFC that out of all the words, this garnered maximum support for it's inclusion.

  Winged Blades of Godric 11:45, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

• Survey (Discussants, please just !vote under this header.For discussions, approach the discussion sub-header(s).)
  • Yes. Turkey is described as unitary in sources I see (and Erdoğan is in favor of this presently (e.g. ). So it can be stated as such, the sole question is phrasing/editorial.Icewhiz (talk) 11:54, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Yes I think this is the only one of these four adjectives that would work at this time thanks to developments over the past few years. The only question really would be regarding Turkish Kurdistan. South Nashua (talk) 15:27, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
• Discussion

Diverse cultural heritage

• Specific Poser--

  • In reference to the Turkey#Culture section, can WP's voice state Turkey to have a diverse cultural heritage, in the lead ?
  • If not, do we omit any information rel. to the concept from the lead or alter the wording to some other expression?

  Winged Blades of Godric 11:45, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

• Discussion

General Discussion

Comment I'm not partcipating, but as my input was invited I will leave a comment here, hopefully this will be useful to those who are participating:

1. Democracy - Britannica is current. If an update were appropriate, I think Britannica would have updated. This is the online edition, and I don't think we should be "ahead" of them on an issue like this. I have read the new Constitution. The discussion right now is whether Turkey is a parliamentary democracy. Maybe it isn't, but the current sources still support it. It could be a Presidential democracy, but that is an update that had not been made in any legitimate WP:RS yet. BTW, our article on Iraq still calls it a "Federal parliamentary republic" and our article on Syria still calls it a "Presidential republic", anti-Erdogan WP:ADVOCACY is really not an excuse to make a change like this and then misrepresent the sources as "not current" - I suppose no source is "Current" unless is supports the editorial changes being pushed here, including Britannica. "Hybrid government" is not actually a thing, we don't write our articles based on one primary source study, and there is a clear and bolded request to avoid WP:OR in the proposal.
2. Secularism again following the WP:RS Turkey's government is considered secular. General comments about inconsistent features like religious education, or state funding of religious institutions Directorate of Religious Affairs is all WP:OR. Once again, editors pushing these changes are not following WP:RS and are making things up. Despite the clear and unambiguous request to avoid WP:OR, I see the same WP:OR from the previous RfC being repeated here. The editor who first made this arguments has been indeff'd as a sockpuppet, but his argument is still being repeated here, and it is still unsourced WP:OR. (Problems like this are why I have stopped editing. That is all I have time for.) Seraphim System 17:25, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

ADD also this comment from Icewhiz The text in the body may need to be updated to reflect the discussion here regarding the lead - This is not how we write articles. After all he has said here and on other articles, he should be topic banned for repeated WP:OR like pushing Fearon to support his thesis on multiculturalism ("per the metric in the cited paper"). Obviously the article does not need to be "updated" to reflect one editors WP:OR. If the article needs to be updated, Icewhiz should wait until scholarship is published that supports the theories he has been trying to push here. Seraphim System 04:06, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Please cease WP:NPA. Regarding "The text in the body may need to be updated to reflect the discussion here regarding the lead" - this was said in regards to the RfC, and was qualified with a may. Regarding "per the metric in the cited paper" - This was an aside, in parenthesis, noting that Fearon's low multicultural score includes the suppressed ethnic groups, and is if at all generous. My comment on Turkey's multicultural status is based directly on the ranking by Fearon, without any OR.Icewhiz (talk) 05:59, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

It is in fact WP:OR. It is a primary source "metric" that you are using to support your own analysis, there is no secondary analysis in the paper. The fact that do not understand that it is WP:OR and that this is now an ongoing issue on multiple critical articles and seems to be connected to a identifiable POV is why you should be topic banned. There is nothing ad hominem about it. Seraphim System 07:01, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

You are cherry picking and misquoting me, however I struck this aside comment as over-verbose and not relevant to the actual !vote. Fearon is a widely cited source ().Icewhiz (talk) 07:14, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Where did I misquote you? Fearon may be widely cited, but the way you are using it is still WP:OR - a secondary source is based on analysis of primary sources, Fearon is a primary source for his own study. Once again, all I am seeing from your comment is that you still do not understand this. This is not the first time I have taken the time to explain this, and I think that I have been patient. It has not helped. Even assuming good faith, it is starting to be a problem. These articles are not supposed to be ahead of the current scholarship. I think that is enough back and forth, it makes it hard for other editors to follow the discussion.Seraphim System 07:22, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Establishment of the state

The empire was founded in 1299, many events transpired, the important ones worthy of the infobox are really just the empire foundation, the dissolution of the empire (1919) and the declaration of the republic (1923). lets do that. Turkey has signed dozens of treaties over centuries so these two kars/lausanne are not for the infobox but the history section

I agree that 1299 should be mentioned, but it has to be named as "Ottoman Empire", not only "Empire". The Republic of Turkey has never been an empire, and there is no continuation from OE to Turkey. Turkey is a successor state, but not the same state. --T*U (talk) 15:30, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

I did change to Ottoman Empire and also linked in the lede Seraphim System 03:57, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Emblem

Altough Turkey has no official emblem, the star and crescent is being used on passports, ID cards, driving licences, embassy signs, seal of the presidential office, seal of the TBMM and the seal of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. We can discuss here if it's suitable to add the emblem. Redman19 (talk) 10:05, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Do NOT add the emblem. Why do you exactly want to do that? What does an unofficial emblem have to do with encyclopedic content? Canada uses the maple leaf in the very same manner, but no conversation over there about this? It is not even classified as an emblem, it is a national symbol and a simplification of the flag.

De Jure democracy?

I am confused. What makes Turkey a "de jure" democracy. its the only par. system in europe with general and presidential elections. an authoritarian government does not make it a "de jure" democracy. and the government may take the press issue too far, but many arrests are for propoganda for the pkk. so I dont care if you think the pkk is some freedom fighting army, your country calls it a terror org. I wonder if anybpdy would care if britain started shutting down IRA media or if iraq did the same for ISIS. this is the same thing

I've replaced the phrase, as it's the constitution I believe that was meant to refer to ]. Therefore, it says that now. Hope that's acceptable. --Calthinus (talk) 03:47, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree that "de jure" should not be used unless there is a very good reason to use it over plain English. Seraphim System 03:51, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

highly disruptive recent edits

a couple people have made some really disruptive edits just now, changing up the introduction and even insulting Turkey in the summary. I am not going to engage in an edit war so please will one of you professional edits fix back the article? thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by JimPody (talk • contribs) 20:17, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Recent disputes

As these don't appear to be discussed on the talk page, I will start sections to discuss them.

Should Ottoman Empire be included in the infobox as an "established event"?

Discuss. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:07, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

No, because it's a separate state. Khirurg (talk) 20:15, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't think this needs to be included. Seraphim System 20:18, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

PLEASE go ahead and delete UK, Germany, France, and all european countries previous states from the info box. cause they all have empire this and republic that on there. Hypocrites! — Preceding unsigned comment added by JimPody (talk • contribs)

At Succession_of_states#Ottoman_Empire.2FTurkey, it says "There is some debate over whether the modern Republic of Turkey is a continuing state to the Ottoman Empire or a successor." power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:29, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I checked United Kingdom and I don't see any previous states listed but I checked Italy and it does have a formation section, which could be appropriate here instead of "established event" - with the caveat that putting this section together is unlikely to be straightforward, as the history is varied and long. Seraphim System 20:33, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Agree with Seraphim System. Ottoman Empire should be in the infobox - but not as an "established event".Icewhiz (talk) 21:33, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Looking at other countries, I've added a header field; the inclusion of pre-20th century dates should make more sense with the right header text. I think that something for the Ottomans should be included; the other question is whether any dates for the Byzantine Empire or Sultanate of Rum should be listed. power~enwiki (π, ν) 23:49, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

In the start I had a weak support for including "Ottoman Empire 1299", but with the heading "Formation" I would change that to a strong support. If we accept it as a continuing state (which I disagree with), it has to be mentioned. But even as a successor state, it is quite natural to include the state it succeeds. As for the Rum Sultanate, I am more doubtful. Certainly not continuing, and not really a successor, just another state in parts of the same area. As for the Byzantine Empire, no way! --T*U (talk) 14:55, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

None of these states should be included in the infobox imo. Too controversial, wikipedia's voice shouldn't say anything on the matter let alone in an infobox.--Calthinus (talk) 16:23, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

It should be there. why? Because It Is So On Every State On Misplaced Pages. Italy has the year 894 or something. You are all trying to belittle Turkey and make it look unhistoric. I request you remove the previous states on ALL country articles. or you are all hypocrites. no insult. thats the truth — Preceding unsigned comment added by JimPody (talk • contribs) 17:59, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

If Italy has the year 894, that might be a candidate for removal. But at least there was a medieval kingdom, ruled by Goths, called Italy, that people like Dante and Garibaldi drew inspiration from. The same is not really true of Turkey, and whether Turkey has continuity from the Ottoman Empire is a debate among historians, with many Turkish historians passionately disagreeing with you, so aside from civility issues, it makes no sense for you to accuse everyone else of "trying to belittle Turkey". Indeed Kemalism has always prided itself as being a forward looking ideology which disregarded the past. --Calthinus (talk) 21:02, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

I am truly amazed that you claim historians have been debating the succession. Most, if not all Turks see the Ottoman as the State of Turkey? Where have you been? Many historians disagreeing with me? Who! Half of Turkey today has actually become neo ottoman under that fool erdogan. You just do not want Turkey to look like it is a historic state, just some country founded last century. I am a Kemalist and I see Ottoman as the past state. pretty much 99% of Turkey does? — Preceding unsigned comment added by JimPody (talk • contribs) 12:16, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

I am truly amazed that you claim I have some agenda to make Turkey not "look like it is a historic state". Yes whether Turkey is the successor state of the Ottoman Empire, or if it is instead one of many nations that declared independence and fought against the remnant of that empire (as well as Western powers) in the Turkish War of Independence is debated between historians and political scientists, including Turkish ones. Here's Emre Öktem: ]. --Calthinus (talk) 19:00, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

I am afraid you do. how is it that MKA fought a war of independence, against Turks? The ottoman empire was called Turkey from the 1800s onwards? The "turkish genocide against the armenians"? it wasnt called ottoman genocide? The armenians are not against the ottoman empire, they hate Turks? It is almost ridiculous to claim that Turkey fought a national campaign against Turkey. It is the Empire of Turkey for christs sake. We have the same flag?! Damn it I am putting it on the info box. Italy, France, Germany, they all have the same, even though these loser countries have had about 25 different republics and monarchies and whatnot over the last 5 centuries, when Turkey has had just one empire and one republic over 700 years

Should Kurds be discussed in the lead?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A pre-edit war version (Special:PermanentLink/785179050) includes the sentence "Kurds are the largest ethnic minority group, making up approximately 20% of the population." power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:07, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes. Considering Kurds are the largest minority (when they are recognized), and are involved in an on-going internal armed conflict against Turkey as well as cross-border conflicts (notably Syria (recently), Iraq (on-going), and Iran (less in the news at the moment).20:10, 1 November 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Icewhiz (talk • contribs)

That's a no brainer, considering they make up 20% of the pop. What we have here are some POV-pushers trying to use various gimmicks to hide or minimize their mention. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Khirurg (talk • contribs)

I've re-added this to the lead; it was removed in the latest revert. I'm not sure why it was removed initially. If anyone objects they should discuss their reasons here. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:48, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't know, I think the CIA is not a WP:RS for this or anything else in which they have political involvement and interests. They are fine for some things, like who the current President is, but the consensus at RS/n where this is discussed is that editors need to show good judgment in using this as a source. Other sources have been added for this which I have not yet checked to verify. As long as it is sourced in a way that is credible, it's not a huge problem - I think we would have to look at whether it is WP:DUE, not whether it should be featured in the WP:LEDE per WP:NPOV Seraphim System 20:53, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm not certain the 20% number is accurate (and agree that the CIA World Factbook is not the best source here), but I believe it is non-controversial that the Kurds are the largest minority, and I feel it is WP:DUE to mention that in the lead. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:54, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Pody removed two additional references for the 20% figure, which I had provided yesterday. I have readded them. Dr. K. 21:11, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Separately, I don't think being "legally recognized" in the 1921 Treaty of Lausanne is relevant or WP:DUE for the lead. Currently, it reads: Kurds are the largest ethnic minority group. Legally recognised ethnic groups include the Armenian, Greek and Jewish minorities. Unrecognised ethnic groups include the Kurdish, Circassian, Albanian, Arabic, Bosniak and Georgian minorities. I'd like to reduce this to one sentence that makes clear what the largest current ethnic groups are. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:02, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

The figure of 20% is in fact quite reasonable and well sourced. There are even reliable sources that say they are 25% of the population . Khirurg (talk) 21:10, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

The distinction between "legally recognised" and "unrecognised" is not relevant for the current situation. The well-sourced number of 20% should be in, since Kurds are a much larger group than any others. Or if other sources have other numbers, make it 17-22% or 20-25% or whatever the sources say. --T*U (talk) 15:05, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Of course Kurds should be in the lede, and despite apparent attempts to delete it the 20% figure seems exceedingly well-sourced so I don't understand (?) why there is a dispute here. Also, why are the Laz people, indigenous to the eastern Pontic region, not mentioned at all?--Calthinus (talk) 16:32, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Calthinus: The explanation would be that the only languages mentioned are the ones that have more than 1M users according to the Ethnologue source. All others are covered by the link from "various others" to Languages of Turkey. It would be possible to add other languages that have more than 1M users according to other sources, but it might easily be a problem of WP:SYNTH. --T*U (talk) 21:24, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

TU-nor that's not what I meant, but thanks for fixing that sentence so that it excludes Bulgarian which has less than 1M speakers, I was about to mention that. There's no way Laz has over 1M speakers, they are quite assimilated and the language is endangered. I have my doubts about Circassian (Kabardin wtv) having over 1M in 2017 and Ethnologue says the source for that is a Circassian activist organization in 2005... Ethnologue also says Pontic and Armenian (Hemshin) are "non-indigenous" so at this point I wonder if we should be looking for other sources to replace it with.

I meant this sentence : Ethnic minorities include Armenians, Greeks and Jews, Kurds, Circassians, Albanians, Arabs, Bosniaks and Georgians-- surely the Laz deserve mention there, as there are more of them there than some of these, and unlike five of the nine, they are indigenous. Every other indigenous group (except marginal Assyrians and debatable Bulgarians) is mentioned. Anyways WP:NOTSYNTH#SYNTH_is_not_mere_juxtaposition.--Calthinus (talk) 00:06, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

The Minorities in Turkey page needs significant improvements and gives no guidance. Demographics of Turkey suggests the absolute number of Laz is low enough that it shouldn't be in the lead, but (as noted above) that's purely a linguistic measurement, not an ethnic one. power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:39, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

power~enwiki For measuring ethnicity not language (thanks to Turkification policies by the Republic of Turkey many Laz no longer speak their language, as is the case with Irish people), we have 0.3 million to 1.6 million. That's taken from Laz people. That's larger than some of the groups currently listed. Actually it's the same rough scale as most of them except Kurds (who are much more). --Calthinus (talk) 03:04, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Do you have a specific proposal to replace Ethnic minorities include Armenians, Greeks and Jews, Kurds, Circassians, Albanians, Arabs, Bosniaks and Georgians.? I don't like the current version, but just adding Laz to the end doesn't fix it. Without some table of the most-populous minorities, I don't know what else should be included. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:07, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Ignoring the first three (which are largely historical in nature and possibly should be removed), the list appears to be the largest five groups, note and which say that (after Kurds) Circassian, Bosniak, Albanian, Georgian and Arab are the five largest minorities. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:21, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well I got rid of the unnecessary "and" that I think formerly separated the recognized minorities from the (larger but Muslim) unrecognized ones. As for the sentence I don't really like it either but I know better than to open that Pandora's box on a page like this. All I propose is adding the Laz, because I think it's wrong to exclude Turkey's currently second largest indigenous minority (I'm considering Zazas to be Kurds) from a basic list. Fix what you can. --Calthinus (talk) 03:31, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Re the newer comment: as I understand it, the reason Greeks, Armenians and Jews were included was because they were officially recognized as minorities, and that the former two are indigenous. Personally I am also of the opinion that indigenous status should also be a consideration, not just size, and that the margin of inclusion should be lower for indigenous minorities because their homelands lie at least in part within Turkey, so obviously their presence is more significant. --Calthinus (talk) 03:31, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

There seems to be minimal objection to the current version of Approximately 70-80% of the country's citizens identify themselves as ethnic Turks. Kurds are the largest minority at about 20% of the population, and other ethnic minorities include Circassians, Albanians, Arabs, Bosniaks and Georgians. As far as Laz are concerned, Misplaced Pages has a bunch of conflicting information; Template:Demographics of Turkey suggests that Laz are a subset of Georgians. power~enwiki (π, ν) 19:13, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

If we've excluded the other native minorities save Kurds, and are going solely by (poorly estimated) size, then I'd rather leave the page as it is then risk reopening a touchy issue. I think it is important to open the Laz but not at any cost. Yes wiki has conflicting information. Laz in Turkey do not identify as a subset of Georgian, Muslim or otherwise (but do recognize Georgians as kindred); those in Georgia do identify as Georgians just like Svans and Mingrelians, if that clears things up a bit. --Calthinus (talk) 19:16, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

I am reminding editors to consider their comments here carefully - "thanks to Turkification" makes it sound like someone other then our editors is complaining. I think the insight that is missing here is that many Turks of different origins love the Turkish language, and self-identify as Turkish. In fact, if you read primary sources and testimonies you will find that the complaints center around not being accepted as Turkish for religious reasons, not denial of Turkishness. I am once again, in good faith, urging you to exercise some restraint in making these kinds of comments on behalf of other peoples. Seraphim System 00:03, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

I know someone is going to say "Well what about the Kurds, they don't love Turkish language" - let me address this. The Kurds are a special case, and I see in the comments a tendency to generalize from this and make broad sweeping generalizations. This is poor reasoning. That said, it is an important case and deserves consideration. Significant work that has been done on this subject has looked into whether or not Kurds were assimilated as other groups were - in other words whether they were given the same access to education and why the "Turkification" policies in the Reform era failed in this one instance (where they were tremendously successful everywhere else.) Second, Kurdish language was not banned until after the 1980 coup. This was generally a product of the Cold War politics of the 1970s. The brief version is that the way that it is being represented in the comments here is not in accordance with the views of serious scholarship on this topic. Seraphim System 00:09, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

• I agree with power~enwiki. Dr. K. 00:22, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Seraphim System this is devolving into WP:FORUM but please quit attributing behavior to me against my will. I am not trying to "speak on behalf" of any people -- actually if I was that would make me an WP:ADVOCATE and would not be good editing practice. I am speaking only for myself and what I view as good policy. --Calthinus (talk) 01:28, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

How should World War I genocides be discussed in the lead?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A pre-edit war version (Special:PermanentLink/785179050) includes the sentence "During the war, the Ottoman government committed genocides against its Armenian, Assyrian and Pontic Greek citizens." power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:07, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes - at least as long as consensus in Assyrian genocide, Armenian Genocide, and Greek genocide doesn't change - these were major events in forming the Turkish nation state out of the Ottoman empire.Icewhiz (talk) 20:13, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

A clear consensus formed in favor this in an earlier discussion (maybe 1-2 years ago.Khirurg (talk) 20:15, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

What is the problem with the version in the text now? It is more neutral and encyclopedic. The fact that Turkey has denied the genocide has been added, because it was previously in a footnote. The Pontic Genocide is disputed by a significant number of scholars,including recognized experts on the Armenian genocide, so it can't be stated this way. I wasn't involved in any previous consensus discussions. Seraphim System 20:18, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Totally agree with Seraphim — Preceding unsigned comment added by JimPody (talk • contribs) 20:28, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

The current version (as of Special:PermanentLink/808256516 is: It is widely accepted by scholars, the international community and legal experts that the Turkish government committed genocide against the Armenians during the war. The government of Turkey denies there was an act of ethnic cleansing. Significant scholarship has been published discussing genocide against the Armenian, Assyrian and Pontic Greek citizens of Ottoman Turkey. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:39, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

The text highlighted in green was in fact sneakily added by Serpahim System using a deceitful edit summary . There is no consensus to include it and in fact it is undue for the lede. Also, would people proeprlu indent their comments? Khirurg (talk) 20:51, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

The genocides are undue for the lede? Seraphim System 20:54, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

• Sigh*. No, the way you turned the original sentence into three sentences is undue. One sentence is all that's due, period. Not three. Khirurg (talk) 20:58, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Should Turkification be discussed in the lede?

Removed by Seraphim System, re-instated by Icewhiz. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:09, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Clearly, this is a major topic for Turkey. How the former Greco-Roman civilization came to identify as Turkish, and of course subsequent Turkification in later eras had a major impact on Turkey and Turkish society.Icewhiz (talk) 21:12, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree it is a major topic, but this isn't a sandbox, and I checked the sources - they fail verification. It is WP:OR. You need to find sources for this specific analysis and jargon, and all the other things you want to add. We just talked about this. The main Turkification article itself is in extremely poor shape. It said that Turkification and Islamification were the same thing ("becoming Turk" and "becoming Muslim")- it further said this was the etymology. It's fairly clear that this is preposterous. Is Turkification a major article? Like Hellenization, and Latinization, yes it is, and I am trying to work on it. This is not helping improve the articles. It's easy to want to add things, it's harder to do the work to add them. Seraphim System 21:14, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Your personal opinions aside, Turkification amply meets notability guidelines and there is no lack of sources. Turkification and Islamization overlapped (and conversely - being a Greek Orthodox, etc.) to a large degree (with the exception of Muslim areas (mainly Arab)) and the two are used interchangeably in some sources. Your opinion on the state of Turkification is not grounds for removal here.Icewhiz (talk) 21:23, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Agree with Icewhiz. This is just WP:JDL disruption. Khirurg (talk) 21:27, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

It is unsourced and as long as it is unsourced it can not be in the article. End of discussion. Seraphim System 21:28, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Do you know what Turkification is? Khirurg (talk) 21:33, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

It seems incredibly odd that Hellenization would be mentioned but Turkification would not. That said, I don't know what the term means, and thus I'm not certain that the attribution to the 11th century is accurate. The Seljuk Turks began migrating into the area in the 11th century, starting the process of Turkification, which was accelerated by the Seljuk victory over the Byzantines at the Battle of Manzikert in 1071. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:35, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Turkification describes exactly the process by which Anatolia went from predominantly Greek-speaking and Christian to Turkish-speaking and Muslim over the course of several centuries. The process had already started in the 11th century, before Manzikert, and greatly accelerated afterwards. Khirurg (talk) 21:38, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree, and most likely Turkification should be mentioned but I could not verify that it began in the 11th century or was accelerated at the Battle of Manzikert in the sources that were cited. It is an academic jargon term and like Hellenization, it requires a serious amount to work to improve this content. When does it start, when does it end? It is a complex phenomenon that spans regions and centuries, and unless there is a source that says "X marks in the beginning of the Turkification in Region Y" adding it to the article is WP:OR - I reviewed the citations and could not find such a source. But the article is not written according to the Authoritative Khirurg. The next step is to post some sources on this page. Seraphim System 21:40, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

We do not have to marry Turkification to the 11th century in the lead. While the exact start may be debatable, the end result is not and the process itself is quite important for the article.Icewhiz (talk) 21:49, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Where is the source that connects Turkification to Islam? I thought it was linguistic (as Hellenization in Israel for example) ... and more complex then the Greeks are Christian and the Turks are Muslim. Unfortunately this strong POV-based editing is disruptive to editors trying to do constructive work in this area. Seraphim System 21:46, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

It is pervasive, and some choose to look via A, some via B, and some via A+B. Note that Hellenization in the Judean context was also similar in that it was a (often)Lingustic+(often)Religious shift. Prior to the age of nations, these often went in lockstep.... For Orthodox populations this often went together, see for instance Greek Muslims and the sources there.Icewhiz (talk) 21:55, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

There are also Crypto-jews, and Crypto-christians and Bektashi who "don't believe in the trinity" - in Israel there was a schism, as there was with Latinization. These things are complex, and discussing them is fascinating, but without sources, it is not helping us add it back into the article. Seraphim System 21:59, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Support inclusion The demographic transition process from Byzantine Greek to Ottoman Turkish had repercussions all over the place, of course it deserves mention of some form. --Calthinus (talk) 22:31, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I think there is consensus to include, but no one seems to want to do the work to actually any WP:RS. I will do it eventually but am in the middle of some things right now. Seraphim System 22:44, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Some brief Google searching gives some sources (such as ) that use the term Turkification to refer to actions in the 1920s; as long as the context and the WikiLink target are clear that shouldn't be relevant. This web forum discussion mentions some reference materials. This book declares Manzikert to have "a key symbolic role as initiating the process of Turkification of Anatolia", but the full context is more mixed. power~enwiki (π, ν) 23:24, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

This is a review of a book by S Vyronis on the topic, which says "The basic premise, which is generally accepted, is that the Turkish conquest of the area began in 1071 with the battle of Manzikert." It (citing the book itself may be better, if somebody has access) should be sufficient as a reference for including this in the lead, though the existing wording may need to be improved to make clear that this was a centuries-long process. power~enwiki (π, ν) 23:32, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

sourced content

Ottoman empire was a world power according to source, you all removed it. who is a "pov pusher"? absurd! why should languages of minorities be in infobox, thats intro section information Ottoman empire was the previous regime of Turkey, france uk germany all do the same, hypocrisy there!

can anybody justify?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by JimPody (talk • contribs) 20:30, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

In general I would appreciate it if everyone could maintain basic civility in their edit summaries, and follow WP:BRD - the justifications for many of this reverts have been specious at best. This tactic of wearing editors down is part of WP:ADVOCACY, and basic civility is a minimum requirement for discussion and collaborative editing. I suspect editors are aware of this, and this is causing the edit warring problems on this article (and several others). Seraphim System 20:37, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

RfC Genocides

Which of these for the LEDE?

Option 1: During the war, the Ottoman government committed genocides against its Armenian, Assyrian and Pontic Greek citizens.

Option 2: It is widely accepted by scholars, the international community and legal experts that the Ottoman Turkish government committed genocide against the Armenians during the war. The government of Turkey denies there was an act of ethnic cleansing. Significant scholarship has been published discussing genocide against the Armenian, Assyrian and Pontic Greek populations of Ottoman Turkey.

Option 3: It is widely accepted by scholars, the international community and legal experts that the Ottoman Turkish government committed genocide against the Armenians during the war. The government of Turkey denies there was an act of ethnic cleansing.

• See extended discussion for debate about including disputed genocides in the LEDE.

Seraphim System 21:26, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

• Option 1, in concise and encyclopedic, per WP:SS, WP:LEDE. Option 2 is long, verbose and WP:UNDUE for the lead. Khirurg (talk) 21:34, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
• Option 1 - concise as a lede should be, without confounding the reader with false balance.Icewhiz (talk) 22:20, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
• Option 2 - Whether or not actions against the Greeks constitute genocide is disputed by a significant scholars and experts on the Armenian genocide. I am being told the "consensus on Misplaced Pages" is that it was genocide - but there should not be a consensus about whether or not it was genocide on Misplaced Pages. If there is significant dispute in scholarship, we can't just ignore it because Khirurg and Icewhiz want us to. Also the statement that the Ottomans committed the genocide should be balanced against the Turkish government's denial. This is usual practice when government's deny certain actions, and I don't see any need to diverge from it here. Also, I am not sure if everyone who was effected was a "citizen". Seraphim System 22:49, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
• Option 1 - this should be succint and straight to the point. Let’s be careful when bloating the lead. If users want to learn about the role the Turkish government has played during and after the Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian genocides, they can easily access the articles of these events. That should be suffice. Étienne Dolet (talk) 23:27, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
• Option 1 - per Icewhiz. --T*U (talk) 15:11, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
• None - the nature of the campaign against the Greeks indeed a matter of dispute as any reading of the archives of that talk page can tell, but these are issues that should be addressed there. The only problem is that Option 1 implies systematic and direct government involvement in all three campaigns, which is not necessarily true for the Assyrian genocide. This had a different nature - there were no systematic orders of deportation and the chief researchers of the genocide are of the view that this rather boiled down to local initiatives. See the section on this there. Option 1 is as such an oversimplification and inaccurate. Options 2 and 3 definitely contravene WP:LEAD. We need another alternative. --GGT (talk) 15:47, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Plenty of scholarship lumps all three genocides together as part of the same policy of extermination. The lede of the article is not for hair splitting. Khirurg (talk) 16:24, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Plenty of (on average) more detailed scholarship has a more nuanced approach than that. Pointing out inaccurate statements about an entire genocide is not hair splitting. --GGT (talk) 16:31, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

There is nothing "inaccurate" about Option 1. See WP:JDL. Khirurg (talk) 17:06, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm familiar with that. It's not a statement of dislike, it's a statement of reasoned concern based on academia by a user who wrote a good part of the article on the Assyrian genocide. We simply just can't write articles based on only the scholarship that lumps the three genocides together, and we can't use them selectively for an over-simplification. The dismissive comment above is actually pretty uncivil. --GGT (talk) 17:42, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

It's not an oversimplification, it's an encyclopedically succinct summary, per WP:LEDE. Details can discussed in the respective articles. Khirurg (talk) 06:53, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

@GGT: How about you suggest one? I can see the merits of separating the Armenian genocide from the others. But we do need to keep it short and to the point, and no throw doubt where it is not there (e.g. there is discussion over genocide classification but hardly any doubts the events occured).Icewhiz (talk) 07:24, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it definitely needs to be as you described. Which is why I was not immediately able to come up with something, but it will happen. Otherwise Option 1 is the one that is currently in the article anyway, I believe. --GGT (talk) 10:26, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

• Option 1 - per Icewhiz and Khirurg for me as well. We need to be careful as to not bloat the lede while mentioning these important governmental policies that left an everlasting impact to the country. --❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 06:26, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
• None - none of the sentences reflects facts. The statement "widely accepted by scholars, the international community and legal experts" simply is not true, especially regarding the alleged Greek Genocide. If you look into that article, you'll see that it's recognized only by a handful of European countries, two of them being Greek themselves (Greece and Cyprus). They were recognized by those parliaments based on the lobbyism of political groups, not by decrees or reports of historians or whatsoever. It's a similar case with the Assyrian one. You should just check which countries in the UN recognize those alleged genocides, and then compare the numbers. And they should be handled seperately, since they are not connected. Akocsg (talk) 16:41, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
• Option 1 - Short and concise, the second option feels too in-depth about the legitimacy of the event for an article about Turkey. --Toreightyone (talk) 21:05, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

I would support closing the RfC at this point and opening a discussion based on this RfC to revise the sentence so it is both concise and an accurate reflection of the sources and article content. It is possible we will have to discuss changing the content in the article before we can look at the lede, and we also need to discuss the use of the terms "citizens" (maybe some were not citizens? could they have been refugees who were denied citizenship?) - since the main articles are linked from the lead those should be improved as well, and then we can revisit this, most likely "Ottoman government" will need to be revised. Seraphim System 00:24, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Comment I would drop genocide as fact and use massacre and ethnic cleansing instead. I would add at least elements within the Ottoman government or similar wordings instead of plain Ottoman government. Since there is no events (including what happened during WWII) which would still qualify exclusivally as genocide by its original definition (that's why terms like functionalism and similar constructs have emerged), true concensus will never be reachable with the three proposed options (if that was possible articles like the Holocaust would have reached GA statue by now). Genocide word could still be used, but to stat that it is often being called genocide (instead of stating it is one) or in foreign languages (Armenian, Greek, Syriac: where they injoy true concensus). Since the term is not universal, it's a construct and therefor can never describe an event beyond its defined parametters. Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 16:55, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Seraphim System: The horrible and beautiful thing about Misplaced Pages is that the editing history is open to view. That means that when you accuse someone of lying here and then remove the comment here, the accusation is still open to see. But there was no lie, was there? In this and the following edits, you actually edit war to remove from the lede among other things the sentence "During the war, the Ottoman government committed genocides against its Armenian, Assyrian and Pontic Greek citizens." Please refrain from personal attacks. Accusing people of lying is unacceptable. --T*U (talk) 06:44, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

@T*U: Thank you T*U. Unfortunately this is not the only time this account has spread blatantly deceitful (dis)information about me. I have collected diffs about the disinformation from this account and I showed them to you on your talk. Perhaps, you also noticed the attacking edit-summary, calling good-faith editors "trolls" while removing his/her blatantly deceitful allegation. This kind of behaviour is utterly disruptive.

As far as this article, you can check the deceptive edit-summaries, in the links I, and also you, provided above, talking about paleolithic/neolithic content at the lead or content not discussed at the body of the article, while removing all mention of Genocides from this article. The disruption continues unabated. Dr. K. 08:22, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Do you think this is the appropriate place for this discussion? How many edit wars have I been involved in? How many edit wars has Dr.K. been involved in? How many of his edits have been to article talk pages - 9.2%. How many of mine? 27.1% - ok, case closed. I removed the entire section because the entire section needs to be rewritten based on the sources that are in the article, and because Ottoman history is overemphasized for an article that is not about Ottoman history, not because it mentions genocides. This is some weird ego drama that I don't want to deal with. Since you've seen my talk page, I can only assume you have also seen that I am no longer editing, and that I removed this comment because I don't think you are credible and I do not want to talk to you, so I can only conclude that you are pinging me in a reply to a deleted comment because you enjoy drama. Seraphim System 20:59, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Do you think this is the appropriate place for this discussion? Yes, since this is where you accused people of lying in your edit summary. I don't think you are credible Fine, I only wonder how and why you have decided that I am not credible. Credible how? I do not want to talk to you Then why do you? you are pinging me in a reply to a deleted comment because you enjoy drama Nope, I do not enjoy drama. But: The main point in my last edit stands: Please refrain from personal attacks. Accusing people of lying is unacceptable. And as for your comments towards me, whatever happened to WP:AGF? --T*U (talk) 22:51, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Oh, I assume good faith until I am proven wrong. I don't think that an editor who is regularly involved in edit warring but has 9.2% of edits to article talk pages is acting in good faith. It is not credible that you care so much about accusations of lying, yet say nothing about the numerous personal attacks the editor you are defending has made. Seraphim System 02:47, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

The position he (SS) maintains has an existence of its own, doesn't matter if he was (or wasn't) deceitful. Might be he does not have any problem with the word genocide being mentioned, but only the way it is mentioned. There is a distinction between writing an event is a a) genocide or an event is b) often called a genocide. I proposed proposition b). Reason is that while massacre relate to general and universal human behaviors (does not have an author), the word genocide is a construction and therefor authored (Lemkin). The initial concept, in its original form isn't tenable (relies on the state apparatus) anymore making it open to interpretations (which are never fully generalizable). It relies entirely on a form of academical or group driven solipsism. We shouldn’t name on Misplaced Pages historic events by authored terms (in this case models). I made my point, so there is no point adding more.Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 21:33, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

I think in cases where there have been formal legal proceedings and convictions that the word genocide can be used objectively, as in Anfal, the Holocaust or Yugoslavia. I have a law background and I agree with the above comment - in cases where there has been no finding of guilt by a recognized legal body, it can only be described in terms where experts agree that it probably fulfills those conditions. We can't know what the Court would have decided. Genocide, beginning with Lemkin, is fundamentally a legal construction. It's purpose is prosecution, punishment and deterrence. I don't know why editors would assume I want to erase it or accuse me of genocide denial, but I don't think my participation in consensus discussion is realistic or possible under these circumstances unless clear guidelines are set for what kind of behavior is appropriate. I am also skeptical of an editor who is regularly involved in edit warring and has only 9.2% participation in talk page discussions, and I don't think it is fair to blame an editor with 27% participation on talk pages. Seraphim System 22:41, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Here is where we diverge, I don’t actually believe that legal proceedings have anything to do with it. If we were to debate about the differences between murder and killing (both rely on minimal constructs) this argument might somehow stand. But not in the case of genocide, see Functionalism_versus_intentionalism, and Raul Hilberg with his functionalism; even during WWII, there was no such intent (as originally defined by the concept of genocide). The limitation is within the model of genocide itself, just like Quantum mechanics (also an authored model) emerged from the inadequacies of Newton physics to wholly represent physical reality. Reason why articles like the Holocaust will never achieve FA, is that they are construed guided from the defining parameters of a model to describe a historical event. Terms like Armenian Genocide, Holocaust, Rwanda genocide etc. all suffer from the same limitations… because the defining parameters are arbitrary guided by models coined by someone (they’re not universal) somewhere, some jurists. The Armenian tragedy included massacres, revolts, some elements of premeditation, etc… In conclusion, academic solipsism can not define events effecting a population, because those concepts are simply not generalizable, they're arbitrarly sliced. Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 23:54, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes that is more extreme then my position, I'm pretty simple - if a Court has stated that it is genocide, then this has a significance. There are many death penalty cases in the United States where we follow the Court's determination of guilt in describing the incident, even where we note disputes that have been raised by scholars. The decision of a Court is not the same as scholarship. This is something different then discussing genocide as a vague "concept" - which I am inclined to agree has a limited significance compared to other words like "massacre" or "summary execution". I have never seen genocide described as a model, my understanding based on reading Schabas' treatises, Lemkin and the case law is that it is an intent crime that has been codified both on the national and international level, which currently has certain rules and case law that have developed the "concept" and that Lemkin is a lawyer and expert specialist source whose writing influenced our understanding of the concept as a crime that should be prosecuted, punished and deterred. Seraphim System 01:01, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

This is my last answer, because the problem won’t be fixed here, uses of constructs are generalized on Misplaced Pages. An example, the main article Humanism I have provided elsewhere. See, for most in the world (outside the elitist circle), humanism is simply our humanity which is not the mostly thinking construct (as often described in academic circles) but deals with feeling, thinking, intuition and sensing. Since Misplaced Pages is name-fed (academic source based) it suffers heavily of the cognitive bias of being solely thinking (see: Jungian_cognitive_functions), which often entirely dismiss the majority (serious selection bias as is the case in the humanism article, since what the majority of academics claim does not necessarly represent what most people claim (case of academical solipsism)). Those are real historical events, which includes arts, oral history, witnesses… they are not solely judiciary cases. By using some legal terms we add arbitrary parameters restraining the event to what is coined by some jurists. Events are events which may have genocidal components, genocides are not whole events, because the event can not be constrained to some legal word (it's the other way around). Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 02:10, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Well I think using the "word" is the main issue here and I am not going to argue about that because the word is in use - but there is significant dispute from experts about the Pontic Genocide (and based on comments from other editors in this discussion, the Assyrian genocide as well) - I am unconvinced by arguments that "conciseness" is a justification to dismiss these disputes and make objective statements of fact. I would also clarify that the use of the term genocide is widely accepted for the actions against Armenians, and be specific as to who it is accepted by because that is the minimum level of detail required by the statement. Generally, I don't think that the tendency to politicize these issues or advocate for the "truth" improves articles. Additionally, it is abominable to accuse editors of attempting to erase the genocide or leaving deceitful edit summaries without even attempting a discussion. It is not enough to just say "please seek consensus on the talk page" - good faith is something that I assume until I am proven wrong, it is not blind faith. Seraphim System 02:22, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Additionally, it is abominable to accuse editors of attempting to erase the genocide or leaving deceitful edit summaries without even attempting a discussion. Please spare us the nonsense. This is not a qui pro quo. There is no logical connection between the two - How can you discuss blatant deceit? You left three deceitful edit-summaries to hide your blanking of the three Genocides. This is the trifecta of deception. Here they are:

"(the history section does not summarize what is already in the article (paleolithic/neolithic) - the lede and the content should be consistent WP:LEDE)" - Hello? What do the three Genocides have to do with paleo/neo? And are you seriously suggesting that the three Genocides are not covered in the article body?

Rv edit warring Undid revision 807949252 by Dr.K. (talk)) - Hello? I just reverted your blanking of the three Genocides, thank you very much.

"not discussed in the article WP:LEDE" - Hello? The three Genocides, not discussed in the article? Misleading edi-summary much? Dr. K. 03:06, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Seraphim System Since you like numbers ("How many of his edits have been to article talk pages - 9.2%"), how about this: How many times have you been blocked for edit warring (in the last 6 months alone)? How many times has Dr.K. been blocked in his entire wikipedia career? Yeah, that's what I thought. Now I strongly suggest you cease and desist from any further wikidrama and casting aspersions, and find something productive to do, or this won't end well. Khirurg (talk) 03:11, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Where in the article do you think the Assyrian and Pontic genocide discussed? You don't understand the logical connection between assuming good faith and attempting a discussion? How long have you been editing? If you had attempted a discussion, or replied to my attempt to initiate a discussion, and articulated your concerns instead of being abusive towards an editor acting in good faith, I could have pointed out that our article refers to these events as "large scale massacres" and not "genocides". Seraphim System 03:21, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Where in the article do you think the Assyrian and Pontic genocide discussed? You don't understand the logical connection between assuming good faith and attempting a discussion? Um, have you forgotten the Armenian Genocide? Why did you blank it, since it is covered as such in the article body? Why did your edit-summaries conveniently ignore the Armenian Genocide? You don't understand the logical connection between assuming good faith and attempting a discussion? You either misunderstood my reply, or you are just obfuscating as usual. The connection I'm talking about is between your deceptive edit-summaries and the blanking of the three Genocides. No amount of evasion or obfuscation on your part will hide that.

instead of being abusive towards an editor acting in good faith That's rich. You insult me on my talkpage, using obtuse arguments and misrepresentations, while not acknowledging that you erased any Genocide: Paleolithic is not in the body. It is Neolithic. You are restoring information to the lede that contradicts when is in the article, without discussion. Please, please stop editing articles in this topic area. You've demonstrated a repeated inability to edit civilly in this area and this is not productive. and then you want me to discuss anything with you? Dr. K. 03:51, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Seraphim System Now that you mention it, "large scale massacres" should actually be changed to "Genocide". Thanks for pointing that out. Khirurg (talk) 03:45, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi Khirurg, large scale massacre is a stronger word than genocide. Since it always imply physical destruction of individuals, while something could be considered as genocide (under its own definition) without involving physical destruction (like transfering members of a group into another group). For this reason it is weasel wording... it gives actually no information on what did happen, while ethnic cleansing, massacre, expulsion... are more explicit and less open to interpretation (they're generalizable). Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 16:55, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

• Option 3 I like a shorter blurb but it's important to mention the fact that Turkey disagrees. Adding a sentence about the amount of the subject seems much for a lede about the country as a whole. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:33, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

@ Chris troutman: you said that it's important to mention the fact that Turkey disagrees. and I disagree with you. This article is not about what political views the Turkish government has on these historical events that have unfolded on the country's soil. This article is about Turkey and the historical events that unfolded on its soil. Period. Misplaced Pages's role is not to advocate these political views on irrelevant articles. If we want to include the Turkish government's views, we may do so only in the articles dedicated to these events (i.e Armenian Genocide, Turkish Invasion of Cyprus, etc) that tackle about the opposing views on these events. Like I said, the article Turkey is about the country and the indisputable historic events that have unfolded on its soil. Nothing more, nothing less. The Turkish government's view of them has no place here. --❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 10:35, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't care that you disagree. I made my point. Chris Troutman (talk) 14:31, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Your "point" makes no sense at all and is contradictory. One hand you support adding a sentence to the lead (regarding the denials of the Turkish government, and on the other hand you say that adding a sentence "seems much" for the lede. Khirurg (talk) 00:29, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

What about replacing option 3 with Option 4: It is widely accepted by scholars, the international community and legal experts that the massacre and deportation of Armenians and to a lesser extent other minorities constitute genocide while the Turkish government and several Western scholars (while a minority) reject that the event constitute a genocide.

This proposition separate the event (invariable in time) from the word genocide...(which popularity might change) Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 17:25, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Khirurg (talk) 00:29, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

(which popularity might change): In the very remote case that it does, we can change it. But not before then. Dr. K. 00:41, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

The advantage of my proposition is that it stands on correlates which can be generalized across multiple articles regardless of the subject they cover (that's called consistency). But seems that articles particularly of this subject area (involving nationalism) are contaminated by ethnic-centrism and it will be naive to expect any changes without any form of authority imposing concessions from all sides. Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 13:55, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

It's (tragically) funny how compound terms ending in "-centrism" are used during POV-pushing to attack perceived opponents. Check a recent example and count how many "-centrisms" were used by that now-blocked account. Dr. K. 15:13, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

You’re assuming more than what I have implied. There are elements of truth in what the blocked user is stating (like there are for his opponents), and this irregardless of his wiki-expulsion. If your reply was to be wholly relevant, you would have no problem raising the position I am pushing with almost zero ĉontroversial article edits. The peculiar thing about POV pushing is that editors feeding them request arbitrary rules which can’t be generalized (that’s called selection bias), while I request consistency. Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 16:55, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

And for your information, I had in the past started a draft ] on how to reach concensus on the Armenian massacres on Misplaced Pages. But removed it by finding a better approach which will be known later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yahya Talatin (talk • contribs) 17:44, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Extended Discussion

• Statements here about WP:UNDUE do not seem sincere or justified. WP:UNDUE is a policy that is supposed to improve WP:NPOV, not diminish it, as editors want to do here. This is a pattern of consistent disruptive POV editing, by a small number of editors. The sources can be found here Greek_genocide#Academic_discussion Seraphim System 22:54, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

  It's a technicality. There is some debate as to whether actions against the Greeks and Assyrians constitute ethnic cleansing or rise up to the level of genocide, not as to whether these actions (and resulting death and expulsion) occurred.Icewhiz (talk) 23:00, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

No it is not a "technicality", genocide is a technical term and we are supposed to accurately reflect what the current state of scholarship is, this is what WP:DUE and balance are about. This is the kind of sloppy, lazy editing that should be discouraged because it is slowing down article development. I don't think I am going to continue editing if the community is unable to get this kind of disruptive behavior under control. I don't really want to invest time on articles where a small group of editors are allowed to turn the articles into badly written, poorly sourced polemics.

The editors working in this topic area have made it clear that they are editing from a truly bizarre POV and are only interested in a very narrow range of issues which are repeated in article after article, whether they are relevant or not. In their phenomenal campaign defending the heritage of Christian Turkey, the regular editors seem to have forgotten to mention that Paul was born in Turkey, the seven churches of the Aegean - in fact they reverted these additions to lede. To what end, one wonders. I'm not especially willing to continue investing time into a project where the consensus is to de-emphasize the history of early Christianity, and to pretend care about Christians when it makes Turkish nationalists angry. The negativity on the whole is WP:UNDUE, for a country that has such a rich history - why should the war be emphasized when the entire early Christian period is missing from the LEDE? Whatever, I have other things to do. Seraphim System 23:08, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Our consensus on-wiki is that most sources say genocide in this case. Those who do not (with the exception of the Turkish government) say ethnic cleansing or similar terms. This is a distinction/clarification that is best left to a footnote, not an expanded 3 sentence block in the lead, which leaves the possible naive reader with doubt as to whether actions against the Assyrian and Pontic Greek actually occurred (as "scholarship has been published discussing" - without specifying the points being discussed).Icewhiz (talk) 23:21, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

We are not here to lead the naive reader. This is advocacy. My job as an editor is not to convince anyone that the bad Muslim Turks committed this genocide or that genocide, it is to inform about what scholarship is available. In fact, unless the academic consensus is as overwhelming as it is for the Armenians, it should probably be left out entirely. We don't simplify disputed issues in the LEDE to support WP:ADVOCACY. The Greek Genocide and the surrounding dispute would be better left to the body, so I will add an Option 3. Seraphim System 23:25, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

@Icewhiz:, no, there really has not been an on-wiki consensus in the recent discussions on this topic. Per usual practice we stick with the status quo upon not reaching a consensus and this issue is not to be addressed here, but claims of an on-wiki consensus are simply inaccurate. --GGT (talk) 15:54, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

@GGT: consensus in the form of the current article names (and frankly my personal opinion differs from the present name) - Whatever they are named - Turkey should link to them in the name decided on. We shouldn't call them A in the article about the events, and B in the the article about Turkey - and whatever the label, it should be in the lede here.Icewhiz (talk) 20:18, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Removing genocides is not Wiki friendly behavior, who ever is intended to remove them should consider reading a consensus on the matter. Redman19 (talk) 07:04, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

That's par for the course in this article. Please observe the gutting of the lead and the removal of all genocides in three separate attempts by the same editor, using false edit-summaries to boot: diff 1, diff 2, diff 3. The same editor then came to Greece, an article they never edited before, and started retaliatory edit-warring. Quite a story. Dr. K. 07:24, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

The Holocaust is clearly mentioned in the lead section of the Germany article, so we should maintain the same course here. Redman19 (talk) 09:20, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Why does the Lede of the article spend two paragraphs summarizing several millennia of the history of Anatolia, the history of the Ottoman Empire, and World War I, but ends abruptly at the foundation of the Republic of Turkey in 1923? Too much prehistory of Turkey and not enough history following the foundation. There is currently no mention of:

• The Population exchange between Greece and Turkey of 1923, displacing 2 million people from their original homelands.
• Turkey's neutrality for most of World War II, the German–Turkish Non-Aggression Pact (1941), the trade of Chromite between Turkey and Nazi Germany, and Turkey joining the Allies of World War II on 23 February 1945.
• The Truman Doctrine, where the United States pledged to contain Soviet threats to Greece and Turkey, and offered financial aid to Turkey.
• Turkey's role in the Cold War, Turkey joining the Member states of NATO on 18 February 1952, and its own version of Operation Gladio.
• Turkey's participation in the United Nations Command during the Korean War, and about 5,500 Turkish soldiers fighting in the War.
• The Turkish invasion of Cyprus (1974) and the still ongoing Cyprus dispute, involving the Turkish Armed Forces guarding occupied areas in Cyprus. Dimadick (talk) 20:55, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

NATO is mentioned, briefly (an early member of NATO). The Population exchange between Greece and Turkey and the Cyprus dispute could be mentioned if you have specific proposal. I can't support the others here, but they should all likely be mentioned in the lead section at History of the Republic of Turkey. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:32, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Most of these are relevant, but not the Korean War, which didn't really matter for Turkey at all except as an allied Western country.--Calthinus (talk) 05:19, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Turkey participated in the Korean War to enforce NATO membership, I also think it's not relevant since Turkey's NATO membership is mentioned in the lead. Redman19 (talk) 09:52, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Current massive changes

JimPody has made massive changes to the article. While some of the edits may be fine, they also include disruptive removals of consensus material. There already is a series of discussions going on about the lede, and several of the edits go into just these discussions. This is a GA, so massive changes has to get consensus before they are implemented. I have restored the changes made by Seraphim System. I have also changed the population data in the infobox from census to estimate. --T*U (talk) 06:10, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. This behavior by JimPody needs to stop. Khirurg (talk) 06:26, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Yo I didnt do the census. I dont care what you guys think I am bringing the truth! — Preceding unsigned comment added by JimPody (talk • contribs) 15:19, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

JimPody, Misplaced Pages is about verifiability not truth, actually. It just matters what sources say, not what users deem to be "true". --Calthinus (talk) 18:50, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree that unilateral changes to sections that are currently under discussion makes things more confusing, and especially because it is GA dramatic sweeping changes are more likely to be reverted. Seraphim System 19:25, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

formation

Hello fellow editors

Here is what I hope we can agree on for the formation section on the infobox

-Turkish Empire (1299) -Dissolution (1919) -War of independence (1919) -Treaty of Lausanne (1923) -Turkish Republic (1923) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JimPody (talk • contribs) 14:12, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Well since no one has any objections I will go ahead and make the change, one which every european country on wikipedia has anyway. austria has been about 10 different countries, you europeans cant keep together. france probably went from republic to dictatorship to nazi land every few years and germany, well lets not get into that one. Turkey has been one empire one republic. so simple, yet you all insist that Turkey gets different treatment for some reason. How is it that a country (ottoman empire) which was informally called Turkey since the 18th century not actually the predecessor to the republic? Absurd! the same flag, same language, continuation of courts and even the recognition of sultans as previous heads of state but somehow not a successor state?!?! very crazy — Preceding unsigned comment added by JimPody (talk • contribs) 09:23, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

JimPody: Well since no one has any objections I will go ahead and make the change. No, you will not! Firstly, you need to wait longer before you can say that no one has objected. Secondly, as you know, there is already a discussion above about the same thing, where there are arguments both ways. I happen to agree with you about the Ottoman Empire (but not Turkish Empire), but we have to wait until a consensus has been formed. Also: Please learn how to sign your talk page postings. See WP:SIGN. --T*U (talk) 12:46, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't think we can call it Turkish Empire, and the addition of a formation section to the infobox would have to be sourced. Seraphim System 13:59, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

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Can we remove this from the lede?

This is not well supported by the sources - none of the sources discuss "Freedom of the Press" (all in caps) or "Legislative System of Checks and Balances" (all in caps) being in place "since the founding". "religionist government" is not even proper English. Badly written and mis-sourced content has no place in the lede of a GA article. Additionally, there is also discussion of expanding the lede, which is already very long, much of it devoted to political background history. Significant sections of the article dealing with culture are not discussed. Post WWI history is also not discussed, but the lede should be balanced with some politically neutral content as it is currently a poor reflection of the article content.

"Turkey's current administration headed by president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has reversed many of the country's earlier reforms which had been in place since the founding of the modern republic of Turkey, such as Freedom of the Press, and a Legislative System of Checks and Balances. A set of standards for secularism in government, as first enacted by Atatürk have also diminished in favour of conservative religionist governance, to the grievance of much of the Turkish public."

Seraphim System 06:27, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

References

1. Turkey Jailing the Most Journalists New York Times. By Hannah C. Murphey. December 18, 2013. Downloaded April 19, 2017.
2. Turkey's Vote Makes Erdoğan Effectively a Dictator The New Yorker. By Dexter Filkins. April 17, 2017. Downloaded April 19, 2017.
3. Who are the two drunks,’ Turkish politicians ask after PM’s remarks Hurriyet Daily News. May 29, 2013. Downloaded April 21, 2017.

Should be in the lead. Poor grammar/English should be improved. Considering that Turkey is undergoing significant changes in character under Erdoğan and that portions of this article (and elsewhere) might not reflect current situation given the flux, we should note said flux in the lead. Sourcing for the existence of the state of flux is widely available.Icewhiz (talk) 09:53, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

I think this could be rewritten to link to the coup attempt, purge and the referandum and possibly FETO. I don't think Turkey ever had freedom of press, and it is not the main point of the articles, it is the extent and degree after the coup that has attracted attention. Seraphim System 10:10, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Freedom House unfortunately uses a non-stable metric (I think), but Democracy Index has a nice info-graphic and a stable metric policy - see here Democracy Index infographic (click on Turkey) - when you can see that Turkey was stable on a 5.70ish score in 2006-12, and from 2013-6 has a reduction to 5.04 (CYRSTALBALLING their 2017 isn't out yet (will soon) - but isn't likely to improve and might be a further drop). So yes - there have been changes recently at least per outside observers.Icewhiz (talk) 10:18, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

I understand that and I didn't even need Democracy Index to help me. I don't really want to argue about how unreliable Democracy Index is as a measure. It certainly doesn't help here. For example, Israel, a country with actual anti-miscegenation laws that bans books and has been in a state of emergency since 1945 has a 7.85. I don't know what they are measuring, and I don't care. Seraphim System 10:31, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Well I looked into it and Turkey got a 3.75 for political culture, which from the EIU's vague explanation presumably is because there was a coup. Israel got a 7.5 - political culture meaning the losing side accepts the peaceful transfer of power. It says more about the perception and insight of the people who answered the survey, then it does about democracy. And it is based entirely on survey responses, so it is not a serious index. The way this section is written now links to completely random things that are unsourced like "Freedom of the Press" - there has never been Freedom of the Press, 301. Madde has been on the books my entire life. It isn't new. And according to the EIU study you have cited at least 6 times, the only thing not democratic about the current regime is the people who supported a coup to topple it. Seraphim System 10:59, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Israel does not have anti-miscegenation laws - you are confusing state recognition of religious marriages (which are by-passable by the local equivalent of common law marriages) with anti-miscegenation (that is racial, not religious based, that actually criminalizes). While other countries do ban books (e.g. Mein Kampf in Germany until recently), Israel does not ban books (you might be confused by sensationalist headlines regarding a Dorit Rabinyan book (that increased sales) - that was removed from an approved school literature curriculum - not banned). Other countries have been in a state of emergency. In any event - Democracy Index is generally well regarded.Icewhiz (talk) 11:03, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Please stop. Anti-miscegenation is widely in use to describe Israel's marriage laws, yes Israel does ban books and yes Germany should lose "freedom points" for criminalizing any kind of speech, even if that speech is Holocaust denial. These are all concepts that are firmly and deeply rooted in the concept of Democracy in the post Civil Rights era. "Generally well regarded" is entirely meaningless. Survey responses by an undisclosed sample are not WP:RS and it certainly doesn't source the content we are discussing. The only reason I am replying to this is because I am hoping that it will convince you to stop bringing it up in every discussion on this talk page. Seraphim System 11:12, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Anti-miscegenation is only used by POV sources. Your link to "Israel: Forbidden books" is about the military government in the West Bank. Democracy Index is cited widely by RS - it appears their methodology (which includes surveys - which is social sciences in often an accepted tool) is not questionable per those who cite them.Icewhiz (talk) 11:50, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Stop. I am not going to debate this with you. The source has nothing to be with the current section, which was added by a banned sockpuppet and needs significant revision. I only replied in the hopes that I could convince you to stop disrupting discussions on this talk page by posting the same source over and over again inappropriately, especially for discussions where it is not even remotely relevant, like this one. Seraphim System 18:23, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Please move the sentence to the history of the republic section, next to the gezi protests sentence. it is clearly a part of the history of the republic, if you can count it that, than a part of the lede. the lede describes turkey as a whole, not the wrongdoings of some imbecile islamist — Preceding unsigned comment added by JimPody (talk • contribs) 20:36, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

It appears no one is objecting so I shall move it to the history section — Preceding unsigned comment added by JimPody (talk • contribs) 16:54, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

JimPody: It appears no one is objecting so I shall move it to the history section. No, you will not! There is already one editor that has objected in this same thread. I happen to agree with Icewhiz that it belongs in the lede.

And for the last time: Please learn how to sign your talk page postings. See WP:SIGN. --T*U (talk) 21:00, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

@JimPody: Please stop these sloppy ultimatums. I agree with Icewhiz and TU-nor that this belongs in the lead. Dr. K. 21:14, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Which part? I'm going to rewrite it but what exactly do you think should be in the lede? GA articles have a certain standard for higher accuracy, and I don't think it's appropriate with major factual errors in the lede (that were added by a blocked sockpuppet, for what it's worth). Icewhiz supports revision as well, though he didn't say more then that. I should probably ping GGT as well since he was a major contributor on GA. I am willing to revise it and source it, but I would like to know what points editors think it should cover. What I think it should cover:

• the attemped coup, the post-coup purge, FETO
• the decline of Press freedom and the referendum
• If religion is going to be discussed, the sourcing needs to be imrpoved. One issue is he has approved the first new Church construction in Turkey since the Republic was founded, and this should also be mentioned
• Turkey has had a constitutional protection for free press since 2004 (not the founding of the Republic). I also think the link should be to Censorship in Turkey and obviously the sources improved

Seraphim System 23:48, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

What you propose is a good start. I think, with the proper supporting RS of course, the lead should also include the tens of thousands of arrests, the mass shutdowns of television stations critical to Erdogan, and the ongoing transformation of Turkey from a parliamentary system to a quasi-dictatorial presidential republic. I also think that you are an expert in this area, as I noticed you created the 2017 March for Justice, which I find to be an excellent article. Dr. K. 01:27, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Seriously? A "quasi dictatorship"? what has this fool erdoğan turned turkey into? cetainly not a bloody "quasi dictatorship"? How can there be opposition justice marches, opposition parties, opposition press, opposition protests, opposition meetings, opposition media coverage, and opposition everything in a dictatorship? God damnit a journalist who supports terrorsim can go to jail in any country. imaging germany starting to shut to down neo nazi press. I wonder what you would all say. Imagine the police brutally beating peaceful Catalan protestors, what youd say, oh wait THAT HAPPENED!. no word. the people of catalonia just got crushed by a monarchist government and nothing about dictatorship there! hypocrisy is rife. I hate the turkish government but turkey is one of few old democracies in this world, from 1877. 30 elected premiers, and the AKP was, surprise surprise, elected four times. some dictatorship! — Preceding unsigned comment added by JimPody (talk • contribs) 05:02, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

• Hi @Seraphim System:, sorry for the late response. You raise valid points; unfortunately, although we all know what sort of things are going on in Turkey, I find it frustrating that often a sensationalist rather than an encyclopedic approach is employed to reflect that. This is one such instance. I think you could just do a rewrite based on your proposal per WP:BOLD and we can work on that if we judge there to be any insufficiency to it. The only thing I'd like to note is that there is plenty of scholarship out there to endorse the increasingly religious nature of the government and frankly the approval of the construction of churches is in pretty small print when compared to that. Otherwise your proposal seems fine to me. --GGT (talk) 00:55, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Can you tell me what some of those sources are - we have some OR in the the main articles regarding secularism and I am looking for secondary sources to help me sort it out. (It would help me with this edit also) - there is a theory floating around about the ministry and its funding, but it is entirely primary analysis. Secondary sources would be a big help here. Seraphim System 01:01, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Persistent disruptive editing

JimPody has again repeated edits that have been challenged before.

1) There is still an open discussion in the talk page about mentioning the Ottoman Empire in the "Formation" section. I happen to agree that it should be there (not with the text "Empire Formed 1299", though, but "Ottoman Empire 1299"). However, putting it in while the discussion is still open is disruptive, bordering on edit war. "Dissolution 1908" is directly misleading. It would be wise to read WP:CONSENSUS before you try anything similar.

2) the ethnic groups section in infobox was unsourced and unprofessional. here is a professional list form with proper source The ethnic groups in the "unprofessional" list were perfectly well sourced in the main text. And your "professional" list are numbers from just one of several sources. You have no right to assume that this source is more accurate than any of the others, so there is no foundation for putting numbers to the different groups. Using one source and ignoring others is called WP:CHERRYPICKING. Also: Your list of percentages has been reverted earlier. Per WP:BRD you should then discuss it on talk page in order to gain consensus before readding it. Just putting your numbers back in without discussion and consensus is to start an WP:EDITWAR.

I suggest taking a break from disruptive editing and reading some of the Misplaced Pages guidelines mentioned instead. --T*U (talk) 21:24, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. Thank you T*U. This account has singlehandedly converted this article into an edit-warring field in recent weeks. This disruption must stop, otherwise the next stop should be ANI. Dr. K. 21:31, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

And again: JimPody has changed the list of ethnic groups and the list of languages in the lede in contradiction to the sources, even to the source they have presented themselves. Restoring lists per sources to include ethnic groups over 1%, speakers over 1 mill. Still ignoring WP:BRD and other guidelines. --T*U (talk) 08:20, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

After his edit-warring block, he has apparently learned his 3RR lesson and he doesn't edit-war fast enough to violate 3RR; instead he does it at a slower pace. This can best be solved by a report at ANI. But someone has to file the paperwork. Dr. K. 17:22, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Unlike many of the other countries in the region, Turkey-related topics are not under discretionary sanctions. I don't see any specific diffs that are actionable on their own, it's a general pattern. If he does it again, I'll file the WP:AN report. power~enwiki (π, ν) 00:26, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you Power~enwiki for offering to do the paperwork. AN is also a better choice in this case. Dr. K. 00:57, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 12 December 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved. Per WP:SNOW and WP:BOLD. (non-admin closure) В²C ☎ 22:17, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

• Turkey → ?
• Turkey (disambiguation) → Turkey

– I am interested in moving the country of Turkey to either Turkey (country) or the official name Republic of Turkey and moving the disambiguation page to Turkey. The reason why I am requesting this is because the country Turkey can be confusing to the bird Turkey. It is just like how the city of New York can be confusing to the state of New York. 2601:183:101:58D0:A437:7718:6C0A:3965 (talk) 20:46, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

I don't think it is workable at this point unless you are also willing to manually change all the links to the article. Seraphim System 20:49, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose and I plan to file a complaint at WP:ANI about this user's persistent filing of spurious Requested Moves. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:54, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose The bird is named after the country; one obviously holds precedence as the primary topic with just a cursory reading of the article._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 21:17, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Secularism, unitary, parliamentary republic...

...All of which are dubious to begin with, should not be in the lead, especially after an RFC discussion concluded its removal prior to the launch of another RFC after a series of complaints from a sole user who did not accept its results (see WP:POVPUSH and WP:DROPTHESTICK). The users of that previous discussion did not participate in the newer RFC. Again, we have serious sources that claim, in a quite convincing fashion, that Turkey does not fall into a category of secular countries. That being the Huff Post, VOA, BBC. Parliamentary Republic is quite obvious since the referendum. I do not see why we should keep insisting that Turkey is something it's not. This sentence reflects a false impression for our readers and should seriously be evaluated. Étienne Dolet (talk) 22:08, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Hey! Closer of the second RfC here. I believe you have missed what the closer in the first RfC was trying to do. User:Godric on Leave's close specifically demanded that a second RfC be had on each of the contentious phrases in the sentence.

An RFC should be re-launched by the discussant(s), each side necessarily mentioning the sources for and against mentioning each particular word and asking the editorial community to instate their opinion on the topic w.r.t to a proper evaluation of the sources on both side of the table.The close of that RFC will supercede this closure and the closer of the subsequent RFC may wish to resume the status-quo before this RFC i.e. let the statement be included per his/her discretion.This non-typical scope is devised to address the many shortcomings of this disc. where sources played a minimal part.Unless such an RFC is closed, re-addition of any info pertaining to the particular words in the lead, that were removed as a result of this RFC, shall be rejected lest they regain a local consensus at this talk-page.(irrespective of the grammatical formatting of the sentence and whether that is uni-sourced/multi-sourced/un-sourced.)

If it wasn't for the RfC being specifically demanded by the closer, it would indeed have been a case of WP:DROPTHESTICK and I wouldn't have closed it in the way I did. But in the circumstances they were just doing what the closer of the last RfC asked of them. --Brustopher (talk) 22:10, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

This RFC should not have been closed since its participants were limited. Most of the users who voted no for the entire sentence in general (from the first RFC) did not even participate in the second RFC. The second RFC itself looks like a little discussion between two users. Hardly any reason to uphold any RFC, let alone a second one. Also, the reasoning as the why we should even have a second RFC is quite problematic since it appears that the sole user who is pushing for this was Seraphim System who was also vehemently involved in preventing the words democracy, diverse cultural heritage, secular, and etc. from being removed from the lead. Those who supported the removal of democracy, parliamentary republic, secular and etc. from the first RFC to begin with should have their voices heard and intact, not washed away by constant reopenings of RFCs to suit an agenda of a single user. Étienne Dolet (talk) 22:23, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

To clarify, as I noted in my close, I did make sure to read the previous RfC as well and took into account arguments that were made in the previous RfC that weren't raised in this one. Further, while Seraphim may be quite keen on having a second RfC, the reason it happened was because the closer of the first RfC demanded it happen. They were unhappy about the quality of arguments made in the first RfC, and how very little was produced in the way of source and policy based arguments. You should have challenged Godric's close if you were unhappy with the demand for a second RfC. You could have raised the issue during the many months this RfC was ongoing. However, if you are unhappy with my close, feel free to go to WP:AN to ask for it to be re-assessed. Brustopher (talk) 22:31, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Brustopher. I think it's fair to see Godric's view here. From what I see at the ANI discussion, very few participants from the original RFC participated and the second RFC was rushed to be opened just 24 hours after. What's even more disturbing is that even in the ANI discussion (Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive966#RfC_Closure_Review_Request), only Seraphim System is the sole user who is challenging the consensus reached by the RFC with filibustering tactics that I've never seen before (s/he keeps responding to his/her own comments back to back to back). Just look at the comments of veteran users such as Winged Blades of Godric, Jytdog, Ealdgyth. This ANI discussion was an attempt by Seraphim to push a POV and to wear down his/her opponents before getting his/her way to open up a second RFC. A WP:GAMING strategy that seemed to have worked since very few participants had the energy or time to engage with the user in a second RFC or of the multiple FORUMS the user shopped at. Étienne Dolet (talk) 23:19, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

The second RfC was challenged and the original closer replied here: Talk:Turkey/Archive_25#Comment_about_above_(stayed)_Rfc Regretably, the community has unanimously endorsed my closure with calls for a future RFC as correct.So, the RFC needs to be done. Seraphim System 22:15, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

@EtienneDolet: Godric actually opened the second RfC (the comments there might make it seem it was me - I opened this up on democracy (which due to editing on the artice back then, I saw as more pressing), he expanded it to each of the 5 elements). While I do agree with some of the points you are making (and others have protested above) - the time to have made them was when the RfC was opened or during the long time it was open ( and you were pinged to it - though that may have been broken at the time). I think the case for striking secular could have been made in a better fashion than my attempt - but it should have been made then. I do not think we should have a third RfC - participation in the second was problematic given this drawn out affair - why would a third go be better? Maybe the broken pings a few months ago (as well as the "stay" of rfc2 that had it placed low by legbot when it was reopened) is a point to allow more comments - maybe.Icewhiz (talk) 22:33, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

@Icewhiz: I understand your good faith efforts in participating in the second RFC. I think the second RFC caused more problems than it solve and turned this talk page into a hodgepodge of different RFCs and discussions that will make it harder for any such user to participate in. For one, there were hardly any participants in the second one. The first one had at least 10. We are opting for an RFC of 2-3 participants as opposed to an RFC of 10 users. Might I add, that 9 users out of 10 voted against any of these words into the lead. That's an astounding sway of opinion to one side of the debate. And the sole user, who happened to be against the other nine, was Seraphim System who kept undermining the first RFC and continuously arguing the opening of another one until the opposition just died out. I think that regardless of the circumstances, the opinions laid out by nine users who participated in the first RFC should not be dismissed as the second RFC was no different than the first in terms of its proposal. As a courtesy, I think it may be fruitful to reopen the second RFC immediately so as to reduce any problematic editing patterns to this article. At any rate, the article is locked already so this might be the only option. Étienne Dolet (talk) 22:45, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

I agree with User:Icewhiz, the RfC was open for a sufficient time. There were also problems with sockpuppetry in the last RfC, and WP:OR. The second RfC was widely agreed on after discussion with the closer at ANI, and I don't see any grounds to challenge this close.Seraphim System 22:51, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Which discussion at ANI? Do you (and I mean only you) bother to ping any of the participants of the first RFC in that ANI discussion? Can you please provide a diff wherein which proves you made the good faith effort to notify the nine users that were against your sole opinion and to the nullification and reopening of a second RFC? Étienne Dolet (talk) 23:06, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

The first RfC had a large participation and was valid. The second RfC was started because a lone tendentious editor did not have his/her way and wanted to have his/her way. But obviously no one participated in that farce, so the second RfC is invalid and should be ignored. Khirurg (talk) 22:37, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

• Comment-- I have individually notified each and every non-indeffed user, who participated in the 1st RFC, to indulge in the 2nd RFC.So, there's no way to assume that any of you were ignorant of the proceedings.The RFC closer is free to assume that you did not choose to participate and hence, that doesn't (at all) affect the subsequent alteration of the very-weak consensus in the 1st RFC.All that being said, I strongly affirm Brustopher's closure and believe it to be a perfect reflection of the debate at the 2nd RfC.Those who disagree, please re-launch another RFC on the topic, after passage of a few months at minimum.It's done and dusted for now.Winged Blades 11:30, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
• Constructive note (hopefully) - As we near 2019 (and the constitutional referendum changes coming into effect) we will probably have to revisit parliamentary republic and/or cover the impending change in any event. If anyone wants to take a future tack at secularism - I suggest presenting strong sources prior to a RfC and/or focusing on expanding this one word in the lead (the situation here seems to be non-Binary - the state is still de-jure so - but it was always secular in a peculiar way (Directorate of Religious Affairs) and matters have been changing since the ascension of AKP). This was really a drawn out affair with some harsh rhetoric (both here and at AN/I) and a lack of focus on sourcing (too much rhetoric and OR, not enough sources in RFC1), and giving this a rest would be a good idea.Icewhiz (talk) 13:14, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

↑↑Wot he sez in the last line.↑↑Winged Blades 13:38, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Only one person (Icewhiz) participated in the second RfC. Part of the reason for that is that it was incredibly poorly crafted (bizarre structure, cluttered and confusing). I don't see how anyone can possibly consider it valid. Also regarding "secular", the only person who participated in the RfC was against including it in the lede, so I don't see why that should be there. Khirurg (talk) 14:12, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

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