Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:18, 7 November 2018

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The current trustees occupying "community-selected" seats are Doc James, Pundit and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation's Lead Manager of Trust and Safety is Jan Eissfeldt.

Sometimes this page is semi-protected and you will not be able to leave a message here unless you are a registered editor. In that case, you can leave a message here

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

Archives: Index, Index, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252Auto-archiving period: 1 day

This user talk page might be watched by friendly talk page stalkers, which means that someone other than me might reply to your query. Their input is welcome and their help with messages that I cannot reply to quickly is appreciated.

Village pumps

policy

tech

proposals

idea lab

WMF

misc

• Refining the administrator elections process
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace
• Voluntary RfAs after resignation

• view
• edit
• history
• watch
• archive
• talk
• purge

About Flickr

Maybe the bot just took it away before you could respond. I don't know: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=866850610#Flickr_is_about_to_die.

I think this is pretty important. As you do have an open door policy, a simple "ack" would go a long way, even if you think Wikimedia can't or shouldn't have a role in this. I'd just like to know you got the message. - Alexis Jazz 08:10, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

The proposal is Free members with more than 1,000 photos or videos uploaded to Flickr have until Tuesday, January 8, 2019, to upgrade to Pro or download content over the limit. After January 8, 2019, members over the limit will no longer be able to upload new photos to Flickr. After February 5, 2019, free accounts that contain over 1,000 photos or videos will have content actively deleted -- starting from oldest to newest date uploaded -- to meet the new limit. I'm not sure if this counts as a major tragedy, given the large number of dubious quality and dubiously licensed images that have been imported from Flickr to Commons over the years and the time that has had to be spent on sorting it out. In practice, it would affect only free Flickr users who had uploaded more than 1000 images. Overall, it is best for CC images to be uploaded to Commons directly rather than taking a detour via Flickr.--♦IanMacM♦ 17:09, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

At least Flickr's The Commons (selected Flickr accounts with historical public domain images, not to be confused with Wikimedia Commons or Creative Commons) appears to be exempted. But we will still be losing a massive amount of images. And not just crappy ones. For example, these three are used in infoboxes. - Alexis Jazz 19:12, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Since ArchiverBot is extremely aggressive here, would it be acceptable to put {{DNAU}} on this? I'm perfectly happy with Jimbo deciding to archive this himself, all I'm really asking for is that he knows about the issue. Which doesn't happen if ArchiverBot throws it away unread. - Alexis Jazz 23:02, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

It is worth noting that the once hugely popular ImageShack and Photobucket no longer offer any free accounts. Flickr would have caused uproar if it had done this, but it has moved towards a freemium model similar to Google Drive and other cloud storage services. It isn't realistic for Flickr to offer unlimited free hosting, and nor is it realistic for Commons to be a mirror of Flickr.--♦IanMacM♦ 18:32, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

I think that the key takeaway here is that we cannot expect any for-profit web hosting to stay up indefinitely. Megaupload. GeoCities. Quantum Link. All dead. If a commercial site has content that is valuable to Misplaced Pages and is licensed under a compatible license, we should copy it to commons, wikidata, wikibooks, etc. now, before it disappears. -- Guy Macon (talk) 19:29, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Incorrect definitions and references throughout Misplaced Pages of/to various countries and territories

I have found a widespread problem on Misplaced Pages that I think should be addressed. The official definition of the United States is obviously the fifty states and D.C., yet in the first sentence in the article on United States, it says the country is also composed of its territories. The total population of the US is defined as the fifty states and D.C. There are also endless instances in US law and elsewhere of phrases similar to "the US and/or US territories" showing that the US and its territories are different. There is not one official US government definition including US territories as part of the country, it is only the 50 states and D.C. The much bigger problem is that it is not only in the United States article, it is in various other related articles, and there are articles of other countries, other countries' territories, and related articles throughout Misplaced Pages that have definitions and references that differ from the official definitions from the respective governments. There was a mediation discussion here https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_mediation/United_States which resulted in the opinions of some participants overruling official definitions. But, as I said, I am posting here because the problem is much more widespread than just one popular article. Led8000 (talk) 17:57, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

• Wait until after the U S. election: Thank you for taking time to research this widespread problem. The fix, at this point, might be to start another wp:RfC to get a new, informed consensus. Part of the problem might be the election political parties which, for decades, have included the U.S. territories, such as Guam or Puerto Rico, when voting to select the party nominees for the next general election. Consequently, it might be difficult, during a U.S. election period, to get active Wikipedians to reject those territories as not within the U.S., as evidenced by no U.S. senators in Puerto Rico or the U.S. Virgin Islands. -Wikid77 (talk) 12:01, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
• Not our problem. The US Government's own page starts "Geographically, and as a general reference, the United States (short form of the official name, United States of America) includes all areas considered under the sovereignty of the United States, but does not include leased areas", but then provides three definitions none of which cover some well known areas considered under the sovereignty of the United State but not leased. Guy (Help!) 00:15, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

        Someone absentmindedly editing a webpage with no reference to an official decision does not overrule the rest of the government. That person probably did  not even realize that their definition included territories. Led8000 (talk) 03:02, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Mr. Wales, wouldn't it be for the best to make a Misplaced Pages policy concerning the official definitions of any and all countries? Led8000 (talk) 04:17, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

This sounds like a deeply terrible idea. We have a working mechanism for handling this, it's called "local consensus" and it does a really good job. --JBL (talk) 14:48, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

It is extremely odd that you do not cite any sources for your apparently baseless assertions. For example, the law of the United States provides this definition in 8 U.S Code § 1101(a)(38): "The term “United States” . . . when used in a geographical sense, means the continental United States, Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Guam, the Virgin Islands of the United States, and the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands.". That belies your assertions. Even assuming, as is likely, one who bothers to look at sources will find many ways to define the 'United States' in different contexts, by policy, WP:NOTDICTIONARY, Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary, we cover the entirety of a topic, and we would not just use the "official" government line anyway (we are not the government). -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:30, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Alan, you obviously are not a lawyer or knowledgeable about law. Those are definitions for use within a certain text of law, so the parameters do not have to be stated every time the term is stated. Here are some examples of this in the same law - the term - “parent” does not include the natural father of the child if the father has disappeared or abandoned or deserted the child or if the father has in writing irrevocably released the child for emigration and adoption. - and - apparently the definition of the word "child" should be changed also, according to you, referring either to age or "someone's child" - The term “child” means an unmarried person under twenty-one years of age - (in the same law)https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title8/html/USCODE-2011-title8-chap12-subchapI-sec1101.htm Led8000 (talk) 07:45, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Saving assets

Jimbo - what would it hurt if, instead of indef blocking or site banning a longterm quality editor - one of GA/FA/DYK caliber - over a behavioral issue, the acting admin gives them the choice to serve 6 mos (or whatever #) helping reduce the backlogs at WP:NPP and WP:AfC (unless the dispute is in those areas), or some other reassignment in an effort to retain that editor? Does it sound foolish to you? 01:54, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Editors are not assets, they're people. And this is not a penal colony, it's an encyclopedia. I find this completely unworkable in every form. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:56, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

A penal colony doesn't give choices, and why do you think volunteering at NPP or AfC is punishment? That alone speaks volumes. 02:45, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Complying with a Hobson's choice of a forced reassignment reminds me of the Eastern Bloc usage of the word "volunteering". Daß Wölf 03:20, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

They can suggest areas they're most comfortable working in as long as it separates them from the issues that caused the problem in the first place, so it is a choice between continuing to work as a volunteer, or they can sit it out per the indef and try to appeal later. I like how Alexis termed it below..."corvee"! 22:56, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm dismayed at the notion that AfC and NPP, both places where we are specifically trying to help new contributors, are suitable places to confine editors with behavioural issues. Bradv 02:00, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, it's a given that each case must be judged on the merits, Bradv, but any editor who has been volunteering here for any length of time knows AN/I is broken and that imperfections in the system do exist. Do you believe otherwise? I would think a longterm editor who has GA/FA/DYK promotions to their credit deserves some consideration, and hopefully it doesn't automatically mean they can never return to WP (we do have an appeal process) or if they are allowed to return, they are labeled for life because of a mistake they made and regret (we actually do have PAGs that protect against such treatment). As you probably know, we have had editors with -0- blocks bite newbies. 02:43, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

If the editor in question would be judged as capable of that, some form of corvee (it's not punishment, it's corvee!), getting out of their comfort zone and deal with newbies may actually help with their behavioral issues. - Alexis Jazz 15:40, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

It would certainly help to separate those intending to enhance WP from those who are here for other purposes. petrarchan47คุก 21:07, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanking the first group and blocking the second would certainly separate them. I'm just saying. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:52, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Open door policy

This is just something I noted. You have an open door policy, which I find admirable. It's however not very practical when it you combine it with both regular wikibreaks (at least not editing) up to two weeks and a talk page archiver setting of just one single day. The door is open but the office often empty, except for some WikiJaguars luring in the corners, waiting for prey.

Just an idea: appoint one or more active users to moderate your talk page. Let them put {{subst:DNAU}} on items they think you should at least skim over. - Alexis Jazz 22:42, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Jimbo has one of those "life" things you sometimes read about. Guy (Help!) 23:37, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

I know, and that's fine. But you can't effectively have both a life and an open door policy. It gives the illusion that Jimbo will actually listen if you ask something here, which doesn't seem to be the case. I know there are also people asking irrelevant questions on this page, but ArchiverBot doesn't discriminate. Guy Macon said "Also, Jimbo is well aware of how toe read an archive page", which I have no doubt about. But is Jimbo really going to read the archives? I doubt I would. And he doesn't have to. But if he doesn't, maybe it's time to end the open door policy. Or at least clarify he's often not actually behind that door. Putting a clerk in front of that door to filter messages that will actually affect Wikimedia may be more effective. The door could still be open to others, but without any guarantee Jimbo will actually read them. This open door policy in its current state appears to be deceptive. Misplaced Pages should be the last place for deception. If Jimbo actually does read every message, I apologize. In that case though, it would help to clarify that fact. - Alexis Jazz 07:53, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

I think it very rare that I miss anything. I read the page every day. Of course with a 24 hour expiry, I might miss something, but remember that things only expire if someone posts and no one responds within 24 hours, which happens quite rarely. So, I pretty much do read every message here, and so I accept your apology. :-)

Now, the question of whether I should answer more often is a good one. I think I answer pretty often, but I don't have stats on that. Often I don't answer because someone else has already answered a question effectively. Other times I don't answer because I see a discussion with multiple sides making reasonable points and I like to let reasonable people think together - I learn more that way than popping in to offer my own views, especially if I don't yet have a really firm view.

Many discussions turn on (at least) two different things: the facts in the specific case, and the principles. The principles are the thing I feel I have a good handle on - I've been doing this a long time and I've seen a lot of things happen, and I think my views are pretty reasonable and seasoned by experience. But the specific facts in any given case can vary widely, particularly when people come here to convince me of the wrongness of someone else. So I try to be slow about that sort of thing, and not comment unless and until I feel that I've got the measure of the facts.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:19, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

How do you feel about a three day expiry with seven threads minimum? I feel like people who don't want your input on questions asked of you specifically know they can just start new threads to keep you from answering. When is the last time you retrieved anything from your own archives? 73.222.1.26 (talk) 19:08, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Your talk page is being edited

Are you aware your talk page is being edited? A couple days ago I attempted to post a personal message to you about an idea I have for a possible new project, and requesting any comments you might have about it, but it was summarily deleted by User: Guy Macon before you could have a chance to read it. I posted the same idea on Larry Sanger's talk page with a similar result. I was accused of soapboxing for sending you an idea and requesting comments on it. Subsequently I've been threatened with a block, called a liar on my talk page, ridiculed on my talk page, an MfD nomination was filed to delete my sandbox, where my idea was placed for further refinement, a WP:BLP violation was proposed against me, somebody else was recruited to file an ANI complaint against me, and numerous insults were posted on my talk page. Yet no article was edited or created. I assumed edits to my proposal, if implemented, would have to be consistent with WP:BLP and WP:NPOV, and I have been stalked all over Misplaced Pages by this editor, who has left disparaging remarks everywhere I have left a message (including on the talk pages of Elonka and Coppertwig and others). I have made significant contributions to Misplaced Pages, including several Good Articles and many new articles, but I was driven out of Misplaced Pages ten years ago by an administrator who outed me--for the second time--and initiated uninvited contact with me via email at my place of employment> This was my first post returning to Misplaced Pages. So far, I can only surmise things have gotten worse, not better. So, before I leave again, I thought you should be informed about this incident. My initial message was sent to you and Sanger because the proposal is a large one, requiring a lot of time and editors to work on it, if it was accepted. I have no hope of that now, no hope of any productive editing on Misplaced Pages. Anyway, you should know somebody is deleting messages from your talk page before you can read them. Check the diffs. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 20:08, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Related:

* Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Mervyn Emrys/sandbox

* Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Mervyn Emrys/sandbox

--Guy Macon (talk) 20:18, 7 November 2018 (UTC)