Revision as of 08:11, 18 December 2018

May I become at all times, both now and forever

A protector for those without protection

A guide for those who have lost their way

A ship for those with oceans to cross

A bridge for those with rivers to cross

A sanctuary for those in danger

A lamp for those without light

A place of refuge for those who lack shelter

And a servant to all in need."

~ H.H. the Dalai Lama XIV

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Karma Dechen Lhamo, you are invited to the Teahouse!

Hi Karma Dechen Lhamo! Thanks for contributing to Misplaced Pages. Be our guest at the Teahouse! The Teahouse is a friendly space where new editors can ask questions about contributing to Misplaced Pages and get help from experienced editors like GreenMeansGo (talk). Visit the Teahouse We hope to see you there! Delivered by HostBot on behalf of the Teahouse hosts 16:05, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

December 2018

Please do not add or change content, as you did at Dōgen and Kensho, without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Misplaced Pages:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. JimRenge (talk) 17:14, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Please do not remove content again. I included multiple reliable sources, including official ones from Sotoshu, and academic sources as well.Karma Dechen Lhamo (talk) 17:53, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Citing sources

Please specify the page number or page numbers in the books and print articles you are citing. "If there are no page numbers, whether in ebooks or print materials, then you can use other means of identifying the relevant section of a lengthy work, such as the chapter number or the section title." (see) Joshua Jonathan has already asked you to provide full citations, page no included (). We can´t expect editors/readers to seach several books when they attempt to verify the information. Thank you JimRenge (talk) 23:29, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

You both need to calm down. People have to sleep, and have lives outside of wikipedia. See WP:BITE You need to stop jumping down every edit I make, the sections I have cited are more heavily cited than any other in those articles, and the sources are rock solid. I will go back in later, and add page numbers Karma Dechen Lhamo (talk) 04:26, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Historical precedent

With this edit, you added a long list of references for the sentence "However, her experiences were not without historical precedent in Soto Zen." Yet, Bodiford, Faure and Williams do not mention Juyu-Kennett, let alone link her experiences to Dogen and Keizan. I wouldn't be surprised if MacPhillamy (1997) does, but in that case, you'll have to provide a quote; the source is not available. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:06, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Mentioning Jiyu-Kennett is not necessary (and indeed is not valid) for the purpose of establishing that spiritual visions and such experiences have a long precedent in Soto Zen. It is perfectly valid to quote citations that provide evidence that there is such precedent. Karma Dechen Lhamo (talk) 05:09, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Also, JJ please watch your bias. See WP:NPOV The article is on a religious subject matter, religions have large amounts of metaphysical things in them due to the nature of the subject. It is quite normal and standard to document such things, and is part of the historical record of these subjects. You've also been warned by others about being bity and hostile to new users(see WP:BITE), and using implication heavy wikispeak rather than rational points to make your points. Karma Dechen Lhamo (talk) 05:14, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

It definitely is necessay. The conlcusion that Jiyu-Kennett's experiences are the same as those of Dogen and Keizan is yours, not that of Faure, Bodiford or Williams. That's WP:OR (emphasis mine):

Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves.

You wrote it yourself (emphasis mine):

It is perfectly valid to quote citations that provide evidence that there is such precedent.

You are providing evidence, not Faure, Bodiford, and Wiiliams.

Wiki-policies are rational points; you can (and should) read the links to those Wiki-policies, and follow them. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:36, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Oh I see what you're saying. You didn't like the phrasing "equivalent". Okay I removed that and rephrased it to better clarify it. ;) Karma Dechen Lhamo (talk) 05:31, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Actually, the phrase "equivalent" was already my rephrasing; but this is better indeed. The problem is in the link between Jiyu-Kennett, and Dogen and Keizan. You've got a fairly interesting point here; it's just that, as long as those authors do not make the connection, it still is WP:OR, and makes the impression that you're trying to justify Jiyu-Kennett's experiences and interpretations. But I hope trust that MacPhillamy does make the connection, though a quote would be welcome. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:41, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

A cup of tea for you!

That's enough bickering for today, isn't it? Let's continue tomorrow; breakfast is waiting. All the best, anyway, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:44, 18 December 2018 (UTC)