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RfC about keeping suspect's/suspects' name in lead

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Should the lead section have the suspect's/suspects'perpetrator's/perpetrators' name? - Josephua (talk) 06:24, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Question amended .... Unless anyone has proof that all the people arrested/questioned/charged or named are guilty .... they are suspects. WP:BLP applies on talk pages as well as articles. The apparent level of proof at this stage has no bearing on that. Pincrete (talk) 13:05, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support - Keeping the perpetrator's name in the lead section lets us know who perpetrated the shooting. Look at the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, Orlando nightclub shooting, and Virginia Tech shooting, all of them mentioning the shooter in the lead. This is not meant to glorify the shooter but to inform readers who did it, and this article should reflect that. - Josephua (talk) 06:26, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support - Also there will be more names as other people who were involved in carrying out the shootings have been arrested but their names are not released yet.Resnjari (talk) 06:33, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose too soon, let give it a few hours to make sure its the accepted perpetrators(s) Gnangarra 06:35, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
  • we dont want to creating a circular source by outlets getting the name from us Gnangarra 06:36, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose as per WP:SUSPECT "For relatively unknown people, editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime, unless a conviction has been secured. A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations and arrests do not amount to a conviction.". 202.155.85.18 (talk) 06:41, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose undue in the lead at this time. The mention in the body is enough at this time until their names are ubiquitous in RS. If it is going to happen anyway, why not wait until we are sure. Misplaced Pages is not news and there is no deadline.--- Coffeeandcrumbs 06:49, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
  • If we are not sure then it shouldn't be in the body. The lead is not a special place that has higher verifiability criteria. AIRcorn (talk) 07:08, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
    • Agree with this. If it is not suitable for the body of the article, it is not suitable for the lead. In fact, anything not included in the body shouldn't be included in the lead, period. "Significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article..." MOS:LEADREL There are a few exceptions, but this isn't one. DiscantX 11:28, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
      • This whole RFC has got quite confused. When it started the name was comfortably in the body and there were arguments over whether or not it should be in the lead as well (see #Perpetrator name). It was removed from the body early on in the RFC and the discussion has now morphed onto whether the name should be mentioned at all. Some of the early !votes (including mine) were based on it being in the body. This could be interesting as since it is an RFC it will be open for at least 30 days and then could take who knows how long for someone to close it. BLP requires us to keep the name/s out until consensus is reached so it will be at least a month before we can mention them even if this closes in support. Since the question has changed to suspects we can't even mention their names as suspects unitil this closes. If it closes as oppose (which is looking likely at this stage) then we will have to either start a new RFC or wait for a conviction (which fits in with a lot of the !votes anyway). AIRcorn (talk) 13:50, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support This rfc is about mentioning the perpetrators in the lead, not whether or not they should be mentioned at all. They are a major part of the incident and should be mentioned in both the lead and the body when confirmed. AIRcorn (talk) 06:51, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
• Comment The question is - "Should the lead section have the perpetrator's/perpetrators' name?"... Yes, provided that the lead comprehensively covers other aspects of the incident too. And if they are in the lead it implies they are in the main body. In the case of this attack yes, it should go in the lead. But the victims also need to be mentioned, why were they targeted, a random location, specific target etc if sources are there for the same? But in certain cases though, not this article, this will have to be tackled on a case to case basis and this cannot be an all inclusive concept. Careful consideration though is needed in terms of timeliness for this kind of information so as not to spread misinformation even more, even if it can be reverted. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 07:39, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose – undue in the lead at this time, but fine elsewhere. Later, if convicted, the names could go in the lead. Akld guy (talk) 07:42, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
• Wait (24 hours or so) We should wait and see how mainstream media are covering the subject. Most prob. he will get significant coverage.Cinadon36 (talk) 07:46, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per the Misplaced Pages policy at WP:BLPCRIME, they should not be named in the article at all unless convicted. -- DeFacto (talk). 08:23, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support the lead should make it clear that they are suspects/not convicted. DeFacto I strongly disagree with your interpretation of WP:BLPCRIME. The article states:

This section (WP:BLPCRIME) applies to individuals who are not public figures; that is, individuals not covered by WP:WELLKNOWN. For relatively unknown people, editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime, unless a conviction has been secured.

Since the suspects are being, and will undoubtedly be covered extensively in the media, they will become well known (and well known specifically for these attacks). This section aims to prevent people from posting information about incomplete criminal proceedings that are not related to a person's notability. For example if a sports person was charged with some random crime, it would be inappropriate and potentially defamation to include that information until convicted.Mozzie (talk) 14:14, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:BLPCRIME. Nobody has been convicted of anything yet. This can be revisited later, after the trial. TompaDompa (talk) 08:27, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

WP:BLPCRIME does not apply here per Common Reason. It is not a matter of dispute whether Brenton Tarrant committed part of the shootings. Cinadon36 (talk) 09:44, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

@Cinadon36: what do you mean by "Common Reason", I would have thought that as a Misplaced Pages policy, WP:BLPCRIME applies to all articles. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:49, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

WP:BLPCRIME excludes those under the purview of WP:WELLKNOWN.

BLPCRIME was developed to shield subjects from one-off allegations of crimes, over a single or two surces, appearing in bios of quite borderline-notable subjects. It was not meant to be used as a weapon to prevent mentioning the name of the terrorist, over these type of cases.

Do a GSearch for the subject and look at the amount of reliable aources which have covered him. ∯WBG 10:01, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

@Winged Blades of Godric: are they a "public figure"? Have they been convicted wrt this incident? -- DeFacto (talk). 10:19, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

What restrains you from performing a GSearch about Turrant and discovering the plethora of RSes that cover him? Conviction has not got anything to do with WELLKNOWN. ∯WBG 10:24, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

@Winged Blades of Godric: WP:WELLKNOWN implies a public figure. Are you saying that the suspect here was a public figure (despite not having a Misplaced Pages article about him) before this incident took place? -- DeFacto (talk). 10:32, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

It doesn't matter that they weren't WP:WELLKNOWN before the attack. They are and will be well known now. WP:BLPCRIME is designed to protect people from being defamed by references to criminal proceedings that are unrelated to their notability.Mozzie (talk) 14:22, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Even if we go down the BLPCRIME route it says For relatively unknown people, editors must seriously consider not including material (bolding added). It is a strong recommendation not to include information, but not a strict requirement. If anything falls outside that recommendation this is it. AIRcorn (talk) 10:10, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

@Aircorn: we would have to provide a convincing rationale as to why this suspect in this article is a special case, over and above others in similar circumstances, deserving exemption from a strong recommendation in a BLP policy. -- DeFacto (talk). 10:23, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

12/24 hours will answer this just wait... we need to be sure we aren't being the source as in the Sydney shootings where newspapers were quoting Misplaced Pages on detail - then we cited them as facts. Gnangarra 10:31, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

You do realise it could take a year to get a conviction (see 2011 Norway attacks). Incidently we didn't wait too long to post Anders Breivik's name. AIRcorn (talk) 12:26, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

He live streamed it. There is no doubt who he is and what he did. His name is already splashed over every newspaper covering the event, which is every newspaper. This is an unprecedented incident in New Zealand and probably one of the worst such attacks anywhere. I would be interested in what you think is enough? As it is we almost never wait for convictions before naming the offenders inthese types of articles, so it is not a "special case". AIRcorn (talk) 10:36, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose Too soon. Wait until the story unfolds. There have been no convictions, and Misplaced Pages is not the place to analyze primary sources. Even news sources at this point are either regurgitating each other, or making best guesses off of what little is available. At best a mention that there has been an accused without the name would be appropriate.  DiscantX 10:54, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose, the only way that would make sense is if the perp already had a Misplaced Pages article. Abductive (reasoning) 11:05, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support. Are you people completely mad? An encyclopedia is supposed to navigate the sources, not conceal everything about the case including the name of the person in all the papers!!! I am very seriously considering putting this article to AfD for being too pathetic to live. Wnt (talk) 11:12, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

I can understand your frustration, but that would be pretty WP:POINTy. Benjamin (talk) 15:03, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose This may be a case where we should ignore WP:BLPCRIME, but I don't think we should be hasty in doing so. These people do not fit WP:WELLKNOWN, because nobody had ever heard of them until today. We can just say "the police have arrested suspects" and leave at that until more sources are available. There's no rush to get this information out there; this is an encyclopedia, not a repository of breaking news. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 11:54, 15 March 2019 (UTC) Edit to be clear, I oppose having the name in the article at all for the time being under the same reasoning. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 01:41, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
  • More sources? AIRcorn (talk) 12:07, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
    • Yes there are sources, but at this point they know little more than we do. Take one of the top links from your search result. . It consists of a very rushed interview with a former coworker and an obituary no doubt found online. The article url contains "christchurch-shooting-brenton-tarrant-what-we-know" (emphasis mine) and the title is "Christchurch shooting attacker Brenton Tarrant was a personal trainer in Grafton," which suggests the title was changed after the article was written. The news is doing what it does best: Scraping together what it can as fast as it can in order to be the first to get the scoop. My point is these sources are not necessarily reliable as of now, and Misplaced Pages does not need to be the first to get the scoop.  DiscantX 12:26, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
      • This makes no sense, the "scoop" has already gone. We write based on sources so there is no way we can have a scoop anyway, we are not wikinews. We never know more than reliable sources unless we are talking about editors conducting original research. No one is suggesting that. What are we actually waiting for. A conviction? That could take a while. Police to offically release the name of the suspect? According to BLPCRIME they still can't be named here. It seems strange for us, especially as an encyclopaedia, to go out of our way to hide a name that every other newspaper (including all the reliable ones) is using. AIRcorn (talk) 12:53, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Printing names too soon can be damaging entirely to those otherwise un-notable persons, and is directly covered under WP:BLPCRIME as well as under laws in the country where the events took place. And we can not forget Richard Jewell etc. Damage to others is a serious possibility, all too often, and many nations therefore forbid publication of those names. https://qz.com/1493781/google-may-break-nz-laws-by-publishing-name-of-grace-millanes-killer/ for example. Collect (talk) 12:19, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

  @Collect: This is a reasonable concern. However, the RFC is not about a moratorium of minutes to days; it says nothing about a termination date. Moreover, the news coverage of this suspect's name (the first at least, but by now surely the others also) is already so thorough that he passes WP:WELLKNOWN. Even if all the papers are wrong, we would have an entire paragraph, possibly an entire section, about how the real shooter had misled police and "trolled" the public in order to frame an innocent man, and if that happened we should continue to add things about how the coverage had affected that innocent man's life going forward. Wnt (talk) 13:36, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Nope. NZ laws are clear, and the Jewell case is clear. Naming suspects is against policy unless the person is notable otherwise at the very least. Once the person actually stands trial - then is when this could be reconsidered. Your thought that this is a permanent ban on names is incorrect - both by policy and in practice on Misplaced Pages. Collect (talk) 13:42, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

The claims that he should not be named under WP:BLPCRIME are clearly wrong. Yet, you make a very good point. What are peoples thoughts about the relevance of NZ laws regarding not naming suspects? If NZ papers are naming him (idk) then surely it is ok for Misplaced Pages to do so.Mozzie (talk) 14:33, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

NZ bars the naming by media. Period. The suspects are not notable under Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. Collect (talk) 18:03, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

I neither know nor care what NZ law says, as Misplaced Pages is in the U.S. With Europe poised to pass utterly awful legislation that interferes with all sorts of news, I expect Misplaced Pages should get a lot more unapologetic about being very strictly an American national project. Wnt (talk) 13:42, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose Definitely inapt when people have not even been charged yet. If/when charged with specific crimes the situation might change, but it is certainly too soom at present. What would it add to anyone's understanding of the event? Pincrete (talk) 13:33, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

ps everyone should be aware that these people are suspects as present (not perps - regardless of the seeming level of proof). BLP applies on talk pages as well. Pincrete (talk) 13:33, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

don't indulge in these hazy posturings indicating at some violation of BLP policies over the t/p.... ∯WBG 16:21, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support, unless there's a good reason to be uncertain about it. Benjamin (talk) 15:03, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support there is a credible source and it is described in the article as being stated by that source. WP:BLPCRIME states that you should consider it. WP:BLPCRIME does not prohibit it. the purpose is to avoid perpetrating contempt of court whereby you may influence the outcome of a case. this is publicly available information from a credible news source already in the public domain. we are not performing a criminal investigation on our own initiative. The name is relevant simply because the NZ police commissioner is withholding information in press conferences. he refuses to state whether or not they have identified the shooter which would cause alarm to the public. There may be other suspects but as of yet we only have information about the guy who actually shot a bunch of people.

Verify references (talk) 17:04, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

• The name is plastered over the page now I'm way too tired from fighting over this page. If someone else can figure out a way of keeping the suspects name off the page until we get some consensus on whether we cal legally include it, I congratulate you.Mozzie (talk) 17:34, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
  • I removed it and asked for an edit filter at WP:ANI. I can't think of anything else that we can do. AIRcorn (talk) 22:43, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

The cat is out of the bag. there are five reliable references from 4 different news sources, some international. I could understand if they didnt also have pictures of his face from the livestream immediately before he continued to shoot people. I don't think there's any chance of smearing an innocent person's name in this instance. Verify references (talk) 17:46, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

That certainly appears to be the case.Mozzie (talk) 18:44, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose; RSs at this point are restricted to some form of official speculation, and it can't hurt to wait for official government press releases. Iseultparlez moi 19:08, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose in order to reduce exposure of the suspects. --denny vrandečić (talk) 22:58, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per BLPCRIME; this suspect is not WELLKNOWN (he wasn't before today), and there's a long list of terrorist attacks where the media reported the wrong suspect's name. NOTNEWS means we don't need to name the suspect on the day of the attack. Leviv ich 23:18, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
• Comment The judge didn't grant name suppression. Does this change anyones mind? AIRcorn (talk) 00:08, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
  • I give up. No response at ANI and everytime I look back it is added again. I actually think the name should be in the article so the opposes can enforce BLP and the current consensus from now on. AIRcorn (talk) 00:50, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

• It was I who made that edit you mentioned. I was unaware of this RfC (this Talk page is enormous) and I felt (and feel) that the name should be mentioned, also because there seems no reluctance at all to name the suspect in the major news outlets, and the court appareance today has confirmed suspect's identity. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 01:06, 16 March 2019 (UTC).

I think there are good practical reasons for including his name. The debate on keeping his name out of the lead and keeping it out is taking up a lot of people's efforts. If we let it stay, this whole debate is over.Mozzie (talk) 23:40, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose What's the damn hurry? Wait a week or so. O3000 (talk) 01:13, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support There are claims here that NZ bans publication of suspects' names. I don't know exactly when this is true, but this time the name of the charged guy is all over the NZ press. For example, each of the four top dailies (according to List_of_print_media_in_New_Zealand) has published it repeatedly, as has the government-owned TV channel . There is no reason to suppress it here, provided of course that he is described as a suspect and not as the perpetrator. He must not be named as guilty until a court decides it. Zero 02:42, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

• NZ has stringent name suppression laws to maintain integrity of court cases and avoid undue distress (e.g. the man charged with the death of Grace Millane in December 2018 has still not been named). In this case name suppression has been applied to the man Tarrant has been currently charged with murdering, but not to Tarrant himself (). U-Mos (talk) 02:54, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)Support As long as not worded to assume guilt prior to a conviction (which it currently is not), his arrest and charge is appropriate lead information. His name is widely reported, and a judge has ruled that it does not need to be suppressed. U-Mos (talk) 02:45, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose in the lead: unneeded; the name is not material at this point. --K.e.coffman (talk) 04:38, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose as it is recommended not to publicise names of suspected perpetrators unless the person has been convicted in court. I understand the magnitude of this tragic event, but we must be mindful of BLP concerns.--DreamLinker (talk) 06:37, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
• Wait - Until the legal process has officially confirmed the names of the perpetrators, then put it in. I understand people's concerns about giving the person 'credit' but including it is encyclopaedic, also WP:NOTCENSORED. | 🔬🚆 |   Telo | TP   | 14:36, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose in the lead: Regardless of what the consensus is on BLPCRIME, the perpetrators' names shouldn't be in the lead. Making the name unnecessarily prominent plays into the perpetrator's desire for fame, and increases the likelihood of copycat crimes. There is plenty of research backing this argument . Keep the shooters' name less visible, and let the lead focus on the victims and other facts. That's not suppressing the facts, it's just not turning a murderer into a celebrity.Lijil (talk) 21:44, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
• Comment As per MOS:LEAD "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." Tarrant is a major part of this article, and therefore should be part of a summary of it.Mozzie (talk) 23:45, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose I do support mentioning the name somewhere, but not in the lede. SportingFlyer T·C 04:09, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support. For comparison, see for instance Orlando nightclub shooting and Pittsburgh synagogue shooting – why should this case be treated differently? Jürgen Eissink (talk) 04:19, 17 March 2019 (UTC).
• Support - a basic detail about the case, very relevant to understanding it, and something it would be wrong to exclude. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 09:13, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support The WP:LEAD is supposed to summarize the main points of the article. One of the main points about the article is the subject's name. Otherwise, it's a central fact to this article. Tutelary (talk) 00:58, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
• Comment The current iteration, where Tarrant is discussed euphemistically as "the suspect" in the lead before being named below, is unavoidably daft and the very worst faux-compromise scenario. If he's not to be named in the lead, then that means information about him isn't deemed material enough to be fronted and so should be left entirely to the "Suspect" section. U-Mos (talk) 02:02, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Trump downplays terrorist attack

Washington Post is reporting that Trump said that white nationalist terrorism is not a problem. 71.218.98.55 (talk) 20:52, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

The opinion of Donald Trump is not relevant to every subject. GMG 20:57, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

It is relevant when discussed by reliable sources. Trump is the President of the United States and his opinion is widely reported on by reliable sources. Misplaced Pages is not a pro-trump propaganda site, it’s an encyclopedia. 71.218.98.55 (talk) 21:08, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

@71.218.98.55: Can you link the source? THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 21:14, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

71.218.98.55 (talk) 21:45, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

On the contrary, Misplaced Pages has been repeatedly labeled as having a left-wing bias by right-wing sources. And is this commentary being made now or in the past from the WP? .--Trans-Neptunian object (talk) 21:16, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Pass the sources through the WP:RS test. If it is an opinion piece, take it with a grain of salt. It it is being reported as fact in several major newspapers, then it holds more water. On the separate question of WP:NOTE it is notable if the leader of the free world is either inspiring the attacks or downplaying them.Mozzie (talk) 23:23, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

!, I'd hardly call the POTUS "leader of the free world". Not just Trump, but any US president in the last 50-100 years. 87.223.74.93 (talk) 10:51, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

The Post is a leftist-leaning news organ with an agenda. Trump was very sympathetic to the victims and to New Zealand in his official response to this shooting. He didn't "downplay" this attack in any way.50.111.50.240 (talk) 21:33, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree with GMG. Not every article has to be about Trump, as their essay sums up quite well. This article should only include what Trump says about THIS shooting, not shootings or terrorism or white nationalists in general. Captain Eek ⚓ 21:32, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

The Washington Post is basically the Hordak to Trump's He-Man, in this context. He has many enemies in the media, but this outlet in particular has emerged as the clear leader of the horde. While I believe the main feud (the reason for stories like these even exisiting) is between a president and a press, and events like these are merely ammunition for that battle, rather than focal points themselves, I know talking about Trump will win out in the end (because even I'm doing it now). I'll just ask that we choose another member (such as Mantenna, Shadow Weaver or Grizzlor) to relay the complaint here, per the general idea of Misplaced Pages:Advocacy. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:42, March 15, 2019 (UTC)

The Washington Postis widely accepted as a reliable source by the Misplaced Pages community. This is all that matters. Misplaced Pages is NOT Conservapedia. 71.218.98.55 (talk) 21:45, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Even if we trust it, we can't trust its readers to comprehend it before proposing misinformation. This story notes Trump says he thinks white nationalism (not terrorism) isn't growing (not isn't a problem). In fact, he says the small group that holds these ideas "...have very, very serious problems. It’s certainly a terrible thing.” InedibleHulk (talk) 21:53, March 15, 2019 (UTC)

That quote should be added then. Especially if multiple reliable sources report on it. 71.218.98.55 (talk) 22:07, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Added to the white nationalism article, perhaps. But this article should be about these shootings. To that end, the only pertinent bit is the standard condolence/solidarity tweet, which tend to be unpopular on this site (in full) when coming from uninvolved foreign powers. Heather Timmons of Quartz reports it doesn't specify "Muslim", for whatever the hell that's worth to Trump's article. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:14, March 15, 2019 (UTC)

Mentioning any more than Trump's condolences is coatracking Trump issues on this article, at least at this time. If this causes the world to decide to go to war against Trump, then there might be something, but no, keep these types of reactions-of-reactions out of this article. There are valid articles where to include this though. --Masem (t) 22:29, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't think this is WP:COATRACK. Coatracking is a Misplaced Pages article that ostensibly discusses its nominal subject, but instead focuses on another subject entirely. This may be because an article writer has given more text to the background of their topic rather than the topic itself. It also may have been edited to make a point about one or more tangential subjects. It clearly isn't the worst case, of the article focusing on Trump despite being about the shootings. In the more subtle sense, Trump inspiring the attacks or downplaying them is relevant and should be included in a proportional manner in accordance with WP:NPOV and WP:RS.23:29, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Did Trump inspire or downplay the attacks? Has any source said he did? The WP one here repeats "Dear god no" on whether buddy thought he was a policymaker or leader, and suggests Dylann Roof is more to blame. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:41, March 15, 2019 (UTC)

This article says that Trump downplayed the white nationalist terrorist attack in Christchurch.

No it doesn't. The headline is "Trump Downplayed The Threat From White Nationalists After The Deadly New Zealand Attacks". The article notes "The president's comments from the Oval Office were not the first time he has downplayed white nationalism." This is all well and good for the white nationalism article, which isn't this one. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:18, March 16, 2019 (UTC)

Given that Tarrant is on the face if it a white nationalist, and white nationalist politics is on the asendancy, it is my opinion that the response of various right wing and nationalist leaders from around the world are relevant and should be canvassed - ranging from those who have absolutely condemned white nationalism, to Trump's equivocation, to Anning's blaming of Muslim immigrants. This doesn't deserve a whole section, but can be done in a few lines. It is surely more notable than the status quo sentence about world leaders sending in the condolances.Mozzie (talk) 00:05, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• Agree with User:Masem unequivocally and without reservation. GMG 02:45, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't believe this belongs in the article since it doesn't seem particularly significant to the attack. It may be significant for some Trump related article, but that's a discussion for another talk page. However I also have no idea why we're talking about random stuff like the reliability of the WP when it comes to Trump. The statement was very widely covered . I mean heck even Ardern was asked about it . P.S. Some of these sources may be agency ones, but although it can sometimes be difficult to tell, from what I can tell all of them even the agency ones are from someone other than the WP. Nil Einne (talk) 14:39, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

• I certainly agree that "The opinion of Donald Trump is not relevant to every subject". However, the opinion of the perpetrator of the ideologically motivated crime (as described in his "manifesto" and discussed in secondary RS) is highly relevant. Of course he downplayed it , but this is not real issue. The real issue is that he became an inspiration for white supremacist terrorists - according to them. Therefore, I suggest to include it. My very best wishes (talk) 15:55, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
• I've had this edit reverted, so I will seek consensus and allow someone else to make the contribution. I think there should be something in the response section along the lines of: Reactions of right wing and nationalist leaders from around the world were varied. Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison condemned the white nationalism, while US President Donald Trump condemned the attacks but refrained from criticising while nationalism. in general, the reactions section does perhaps focus too much on condolences and too little on the condemnation of white nationalism. Perhaps it should more read that immediately after the attack world leaders sent condolences and condemned the attacks and their apparent white nationalist motivations.Mozzie (talk) 00:15, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
• Don't include. We are not short on Trump articles where this can fit. AIRcorn (talk) 04:27, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Take your anti-Trump bias somewhere else. This is not MSNBC.Bjoh249 (talk) 16:49, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• Here's a WSJ source: wumbolo ^^^ 11:56, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

The WSJ "source" does not support the claims being made. What percentage of whites are "white nationalists" is the point being made. The simple truth is that "white nationalism" is a fringe area in the entire world today. https://www.vox.com/2018/8/10/17670992/study-white-americans-alt-right-racism-white-nationalists arrives at a figure of 5.64% of white Americans holding some "alt-right compatible views". This is thus higher than self-identified "white nationalists" by a substantial amount. " People are notoriously shy to express overtly racist attitudes to pollsters, and aligning yourself with the alt-right is aligning yourself with an openly racist movement." means that this study did not even try to count the very minimal number of people who describe themselves as "white nationalist" but even using the highest number possible from the data means under 3% of all Americans fit that description.

"Respondents were asked how important their race was to their identity on a five-point scale ranging from “not at all important” to “extremely important.” They were also asked a question measuring their feelings of white solidarity: “How important is it that whites work together to change laws that are unfair to whites?” This followed the same five-point scale. Finally, we can assess survey respondents’ feelings of white victimization from their answers to the question of how much discrimination whites face in the U.S., also on a five-point scale, ranging from “none at all” to a “great deal.”

In short - even just saying that you are "white" places you in the start of the Venn diagram for "white nationalism", as does saying that "laws which are unfair to whites" are unfair to whites. And if they ever felt they were disadvantaged due to being "white" they meet the 5.64% level. In short, an all-encompassing standard for "white nationalist" which, to me, means, "one who believes whites should band together to control the nation." YMMV. The point I am making is that such "standards" applied to New Zealand are likely even less relevant. Collect (talk) 12:23, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

"A symbol of renewed white identity"

So, according to this, this, etc. (lots of RS), the manifesto "hailed Trump as "a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose"". This is something highly notable/widely covered in RS and has been officially commented about by the White House , which makes it even more significant. I think this should be prominently described on the page. My very best wishes (talk) 15:19, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

• Does it really need to be 'prominent' in the article? It comprised exactly 1 sentence in the manifesto, followed by 1 sentence saying Trump was a horrible leader and policy maker. I do believe that this article should have much more information included from his manifesto, including this, but we shouldn't focus on Trump just because Trump is the flavor of the month, especially when its such a minor part of the manifesto. Its possibly worth a quick mention at best and no more.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.12.249.87 (talk • contribs)

The prominence (in WP sense) is not defined by the numbers of phrases in a terrorist manifesto. It is defined by the coverage in reliable sources per WP:NPOV. It has a significant coverage. This is not "we" who are focused on the manifesto or whatever. That's the sources. How exactly this should be phrased on the page is of course debatable. My very best wishes (talk) 16:35, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

@My very best wishes I'm inclined to agree. I would prefer not to give the manifesto too much weight in the article because honestly, it's a bunch of gibberish, and shouldn't be taken too seriously. However the current section has quite a bit of detail on other aspects of the manifesto, but glosses over mentioning Trump despite mentioning many other things possibly of less significance. The closest the current wording gets is "high-profile right wing figures", I suppose.

I support including the fact that Trump is mentioned in the manifesto (including the full quote stating that Trump is only useful as a symbol of white identity and blah blah, and not as a leader or policymaker). I think the idea Trump should not be included because he is "just the flavor of the month" makes no sense given that the section currently mentions that the manifesto calls for the death of a relatively obscure British politician. Surely a mention of the most powerful leader in the Western world, if not the world, is more significant than that. I'm about to make some minor changes in the manifesto section anyway, but won't touch the trump stuff for now. Too tired. Anotheranothername (talk) 16:18, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

My very best wishes No opinion with regard to "prominence" however I added specifically this info in the Suspect section ] and it was purged by our very impartial talk page lecturer Tycoon24 ]. I'm on my phone right now but will back up any revert of that disruptive edit. --Calthinus (talk) 16:28, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Because of Trump's (obvious) notability (plus the fact that he has been criticised in the past - rightly or wrongly - for allegedly inflaming extremism), this definitely needs to be mentioned - though not 'prominently'. Just a one sentence mention when describing the manifesto would be OK. And, to ensure a neutral POV, the other wording critical of Trump should also be mentioned. Ross Finlayson (talk) 16:37, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, probably. Of course there is wider problem, but it is for other pages. My very best wishes (talk) 17:01, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I still think it makes sense to include a discussion of the attacks' relationship to white nationalism. There is quite a bit of coverage in RS about how politicians have used nationalism and anti Muslim sentiment to their advantage, that this has enabled extremists, and has lead to their threat being ignored. This is relevant, and while it should be covered in detail somewhere else, it should be mentioned for context here.Mozzie (talk) 06:56, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

This is an example of why well-known shooters tend to get their own articles. It is relevant to him but it has nothing at all to do with the massacre. It's like describing where he went to high school in that regard. Wnt (talk) 20:06, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I am not sure what you mean. The "manifesto" is obviously important, and the event is more important than the perpetrator, at least in this case. There was also a "dossier", and it hailed Trump as "a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose" and the perpetrator claimed to carry out the attacks "to directly reduce immigration rates to European lands by intimidating and physically removing the invaders themselves." . Based on the responses above, it seems people agree to include this, very briefly and in appropriate section. My very best wishes (talk) 20:44, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

My very best wishes, I've added a reference to Trump in the manifesto section. I am not sure if it is in the right place, so if anyone wants to take a crack at finding a better spot for it in the section please do so. ~ Anotheranothername (talk) 01:42, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Please don't turn this into another Trump attack piece. This belongs at one of the multitude of articles about him, not here. AIRcorn (talk) 04:25, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

User:Aircorn The section on the manifesto has been trimmed extensively, removing both the references to Trump and the manifesto's ranting about child sex abuse, the Arab slave trade, etc. I agree that we are going to have to keep an eye on the coatracking in that section in general. ~ Anotheranothername (talk) 04:29, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I am just got home and am catching up. AIRcorn (talk) 04:30, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Mysteriously this appears to have been removed without discussion yet again.--Calthinus (talk) 05:54, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Notability of manifesto and political motivation

How notable is the manifesto? I added information about the manifesto to the lead per WP:LEAD to parallel the article body. @Denny: undid the edit, stating that the manifesto is not notable.

One problem with saying that the manifesto is not notable is that the suspect's motivations clearly are notable. Stating facts about the manifesto is a way to allow the reader to draw conclusions about the motivations in a neutral way that bypasses debates over whether eco-fascism is left or right w ing.

Thus, I think we need to work together to resolve two problems. First, the narrow problem: is the manifesto itself notable enough to be in the lead? Second, the broad problem: how do we neutrally cover the suspect's motivations while not wading into WP:OR territory? Leugen9001 (talk) 02:58, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

For your second problem, I would simply make liberal use of terms such as "self-described", "in his own words", etc... when needed. There is no OR going on if the article states something like "The shooter is a self-described ...". For the first problem, I believe it's worth a mention. It seems to me his entire goal was to radicalize the anglosphere and his manifesto was more prominent in this goal then the movie was.

We can use the 10 year test and simply look at Ted Kaczynski's WP article -- his manifesto is mentioned in the 2nd paragraph lead — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.12.249.87 (talk) 03:04, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

The manifesto can be mentioned in the lead but I think it would be inappropriate to quote it, I understand some people prefer primary sources but I think we should abide by WP:RS and use secondary analysis rather than giving the killer space in Misplaced Pages to explain his murderous acts. People who want to read the manifesto can find it online somewhere, Misplaced Pages shouldn't use it as a source. Liz 03:36, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Full text of Breivik manifestio was used as reference in those articles, though: Anders_Behring_Breivik#cite_note-202 & 2011_Norway_attacks#cite_note-manifesto1-31 Crusier (talk) 21:37, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

The 10 year test is great - here is one of the attacks by the Unabomber: American Airlines Flight 444 - there is no mention of the Manifesto, nor is the Unabomber mentioned by name. So, yes, I totally agree, let's do it like this.

Also, no - we use any self-description only if there are reliable secondary sources providing such. We do not using the Manifesto itself as a source.

The manifesto is not notable, and whether we can understand the motivations of the suspects from it has to be established first. Considering that it was written by a suspected mass murderer, it is not necessarily to be considered a good source for Misplaced Pages. Who knows? Maybe his motivations were that he was impotent, or that he couldn't find a job, or that he had a troubled youth, or whatever. What he writes is not for us to be interpreted, but for relevant experts. Once they have published their findings, we can summarize them in the article and provide references.

I will not read the manifesto. I don't have the necessary expertise and background to read something written by a mass murderer, to interpret it, and put it into the right context. That's for others to do. So, no, the manifesto is not notable enough to be featured in the , and the extended exegesis of it in the article needs to be severely shortened. --denny vrandečić (talk) 03:45, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I actually support Denny's huge cut to the manifesto section here although I doubt it will last long. I agree that it had gotten way too specific/exegetical (even though I had been improving the wording etc of that section for the last few hours). The view of including only major details about the contents of the manifesto will keep more and more details from creeping in that don't necessarily belong on this page (manifesto's reference to trump, to child sex abuse by Muslims in the UK, blah blah) and also possibly stop future bickering about the suspect's political views.~ Anotheranothername (talk) 04:02, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Multiple sources established why he only attacked Muslims just fyi. It wasn't just anti-immigration, it was revenge as well as their higher birth rate than any other group. So that will be necessary. RookerBowman (talk) 04:04, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

The section on the manifesto shouldn't be longer than the section on the victims, otherwise I don't think that due weight is given to the importance of these two facets of this tragic event. --denny vrandečić (talk) 04:06, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• This is an ideologically motivated crime. Therefore, describing the "manifesto" per multiple RS is very important. Removing it from the lead and from the body of the page I think is unacceptable. This is something published by multiple RS, and no, we do not use the writings by the suspect directly as a source. My very best wishes (talk) 04:08, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

There is no requirement to make any section longer or shorter, please don't make up such weird claims. It That is irrelevant. As long as his ideology and motivations are covered in a short para, that is succinct. RookerBowman (talk) 04:14, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

UPDATE: I've made it very short now, just two paragraphs. RookerBowman (talk) 04:16, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• Here is version prior to your unilateral removal. I agree, this could be made shorter, but not that much. You removed a lot of important details covered in multiple RS. That is what defines notability. My very best wishes (talk) 04:22, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, Rooker.

My very best wishes, Notability is not Misplaced Pages's only policy. There is also the requirement to not give undue weight. I removed almost 16,000 characters, and the result was still longer than the section on victims. Unless someone argues convincingly that the manifesto of a mass murderer, who will likely turn out to not be the most psychological stable person, deserves so much weight compared to fifty innocent victims, I think that my edit was for the better. Misplaced Pages does not have to be a platform for the exegesis of the mind of a mass murderer. --denny vrandečić (talk) 04:32, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I already expanded the Victims section because it needed more details about the missing people. Now it's longer than manifesto. RookerBowman (talk) 04:35, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, Rooker. Let's keep it this way.

To also make it very explicit: I am thankful for anyone who put energy into creating the text that I deleted, I understand that a lot of energy went into this, and that a lot of people were trying to improve Misplaced Pages by working on these 16,000 characters in 100s of edits. I nevertheless think that we are breaching Misplaced Pages's policy here by having this overlong section. I understand that it must be frustrating to see the results of your work be suddenly removed. I suggest to step back for a moment, and consider the wider picture. I hope you will find that it was indeed giving undue weight to an aspect of this tragic event. --denny vrandečić (talk) 04:39, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

The manifesto has been covered a lot. I already cut out what I could. There is nothing undue anymore. Cutting his ideology and especially his motivations for attack cannot be done. Please stop making up reasons to hide why he attacked Muslims. The man is sound, his manifesto is actually very clever. Nothing else I will say. RookerBowman (talk) 04:45, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I disagree on your assessment that someone who decided to murder innocent people is "sound" or "clever". --denny vrandečić (talk) 05:05, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

People have many motivation to kill. Some killers are intelligent. Just read this https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of-world/2019/03/15/shitposting-inspirational-terrorism-and-the-christchurch-mosque-massacre/ RookerBowman (talk) 05:17, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Though some comments are distractions, his hatred of immigrants, fascism and sympathy to the far-right is true. RookerBowman (talk) 05:20, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, the sources agree on that, and thus that should be mentioned. Let's agree to disagree on the question how sound the murderer is and move on, it doesn't have an effect on the rest of the work. --denny vrandečić (talk) 05:47, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree with my very best wishes. This is a very ideologically motivated crime, and deserves to have the manifesto's content looked at under a critical eye as determined in the reliable sources. I felt that the way that the article mentioned the manifeso was more than adequate in that respect. The current section glosses over a lot of what was said in said manifesto, without citing and debunking with specific examples, and simply looks and reads sloppy, glosses over some of the deeper meaning that was presented in the writing, among other things. Tutelary (talk) 05:35, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Strongly oppose removal this is a crime that could not have happened without the extensive ideology that the manifesto (in a roundabout way) demonstrates. Cutting out a lot of the details here, be they his interpretation of European/Muslim history or Euro/Muslim current events or his views on modern Western politics, is sabotaging the reader's attempts to understand what happened. This is not (only) an NPOV issue, this is a basic quality issue.--Calthinus (talk) 05:58, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree but that section is ripe for coatracking. I think it looks better now than it did last night (KST). The article is about the attack, not the manifesto. ~ Anotheranothername (talk) 06:07, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I also strongly oppose removing content about the manifesto, some editors may make the case that its undue and about the actual shooting. However when a separate page on the gunman himself is created, as with Anders' page the guy had motivations and there will be a section on the manifesto. Certain right wing ideologies like white supremacism and Balkan ethno-nationalisms played their part in his radicalisation.Resnjari (talk) 10:07, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• The section is prone to abuse by inclusion of random details, but that is no reason to abuse it yourself by cutting relevant information. The test here is not "notability", which doesn't apply to individual details of an article; the test is relevancy. What Tarrant thinks of Donald Trump is almost surely irrelevant but some other aspects of his thinking may not be, if they help explain what put him at the door of the mosque with a bunch of guns. Wnt (talk) 06:36, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

The coverage by reliable sources, notability and relevance of the manifesto is sufficient enough that it should be mentioned in the article. I don’t particularly care whether or not it’s in the lead. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 07:35, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Mentioned? Sure, I totally agree. But an exegesis several thousands of characters long? That's giving too much weight to those words. That's giving undue weight to the manifesto. --denny vrandečić (talk) 08:03, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Since there is no total consensus on the removal of the large section, I made a recap that I think is reasonable ánd significant. I hope this is a welcomed compromise. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 08:45, 17 March 2019 (UTC).

Jürgen Eissink It's a good size, but may I ask what made you omit the part about Trump? That is surely as notable (due to Trump's notability) as the manifesto's namechecking of various mass murderers. This is why I favoured the heavily trimmed manifesto section in the first place.~ Anotheranothername (talk) 08:53, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Anotheranothername, I don't know which heavily trimmed manifesto section you mean, but I agree that might be added, so feel free to do so, as far as I'm concerned. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 08:57, 17 March 2019 (UTC).

Added. It's the same sentence and position/context from the larger manifesto section. I honestly think it is a good size and hits the basic points without being like... fetishistic about all the stuff in the manifesto. Hope this version will stick.~ Anotheranothername (talk) 09:32, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

It's not bad. I don't think we have to say US president Trump though, we are not introducing the others as "mass-murderer Anders Behring Breivik" etc. It also seems a bit redundant to say " refers to U.S. President Donald Trump" as well as "writing that he is a supporter of Trump" in the same sentence. Thats getting a bit nit picky though. AIRcorn (talk) 09:41, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Of course we should include Brevik and whoever else was inspiration for the shooter - according to him and how described in RS. My very best wishes (talk) 15:05, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Is this reply for me? i never said anything about not including Brevik. AIRcorn (talk) 15:42, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I am tragically too busy (I will keep trying to find time) to keep track of who did what here but there are a number of things I find problematic with the current version. Denny I am very sympathetic to your view of not turning this page into a platform for Tarrant's twisted manifesto but that does not mean we don't report on it -- it means we report what extensive secondary sources like these ] ] say. I don't necessarily want to go back to the old version, we can work from this one. His relation to the internet is significant, and is noted, but insufficienttly. That he mentioned Trump as a source of hope, a symbol of "renewed" white identity blablabla is significant -- without hope, he would have thought he was throwing away his life for nothing (EDIT: I see that this has now been re-included, thanks). His connections to far-right movements in parts of Europe like especially Serbia are also significant (his whole idea of some sort of pan-European Christian "nation" smacks of the Ottoman millet) -- as RS can show his views were not only home grown radicalization but also significantly "Balkan-grown" . These things and many more (I will be back with more sources, hopefully when I get a moment) have been purged from the page and that is unfortunate.--Calthinus (talk) 16:15, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Here's a lot of sourcing for how his ideology was "Balkan-grown" (via the Internet... and also his visits to the region ]) ] hr.n1info.com/English/NEWS/a377784/Bosnia-s-ambassador-Christchurch-shooter-inspired-by-Serbian-nationalist-songs.html ] (this one among other things also notes the Balkanization of Breivik whose own manifesto also has "Serbia", "Kosovo", "Bosnia" and "Albania" each appearing hundreds of times in the manifesto -- together over a thousand -- more than some common verbs). Indeed he was . --Calthinus (talk) 16:25, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Excellent points! According to one of RS above "In a 74-page manifesto that he posted on social media, Tarrant said he was a white supremacist who was out to avenge attacks in Europe perpetrated by Muslims." And this is not just something "he said". This is something he actually did, and something supported by these investigations of his travel and international connections. All of that does belong to page. The manifesto is only a part of that, but an important part. Historically, such writings were significant ( Said Sergey Nechayev: "A revolutionary is a doomed man. He has no private interests, no affairs, sentiments, ties, property nor even a name of his own... Heart and soul, not merely by word but by deed, he has severed every link with the social order and with the entire civilized world; with the laws, good manners, conventions, and morality of that world. He is its merciless enemy and continues to inhabit it with only one purpose – to destroy it.") My very best wishes (talk) 17:21, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Except that the RS is utterly wrong stating "Tarrant said he was a white supremacist" – he simply did not say that. The word 'supremacy' or 'superior' is not in the manifesto. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 18:25, 17 March 2019 (UTC).

It is not just about the notability. And it is not about censoring this information. Misplaced Pages is not a government, therefore removing information from Misplaced Pages does not constitute censoring, unless it is the government censoring it. I am sure there is a sufficient number of forums that discuss the manifesto in as much detail as anyone would desire. Misplaced Pages is not a place for that. We offer the sum of all knowledge. For interpreting such works as the manifesto, there are researchers, and I am sure we will get good reliable sources on that within a year or two. Then we can cite these and summarize their findings. But describing in detail the manifesto of a mass murderer, using his own words as a primary source, when one or two sentences would suffice, that is not for Misplaced Pages.

We saw one edit that tried to add more information about the victims. It was immediately removed. Because not encyclopedic. What makes the life of innocent victims less relevant than the writings of a mass murderer? I see that the article still puts an undue weight on the murderer and his writing. I suggest that we further trim the amount of text on the assailant, and in extension, on his words. We don't discuss the crazy ideas of every delusional murderer in detail in most other murder cases, why should we do it here? Do we want to tell people: "Listen, in order for your ideas to be heard, you need to kill 50 people." Is that the message we want to send? --denny vrandečić (talk) 17:28, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• You can not remove a lot of relevant sourced information like that just by saying: "hey, this is not encyclopedic". You must explain why this sourced information was not encyclopedic. And no, a significant amount of sourced information about victims and perpetrator(s) is encyclopedic, including why he did it and how exactly the terrorist act has been planned. My very best wishes (talk) 19:59, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Denny While from the bottom of my heart I would not argue that the views or general info about the victims is not important, the fact is that as the sole reason they were killed was existing as Muslims, it will not tell readers much about the event itself. The motives of the killer, on the other hand, are a central aspect of the crime, especially in this case where we have an ideologically motivated mass murder. In what sort of ideological massacre is the ideology behind it more important to understanding it, than the innocent victims whose individual lives meant nothing to their killers? --Calthinus (talk) 20:02, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Calthinus, I think when the article on the gunmen himself is created (its bound to happen in coming weeks or months) a more detailed section on the manifesto will be apt there, like as in Anders Behring Breivik's article on him which is separate from the shooting he did.Resnjari (talk) 20:10, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Resnjari It's still better to have here a three or so sentence blurb mentioning at least some of the "Balkan" factors rather than only the fact that a meme-ified song played (many people who know of said song aren't even aware of its origins or meaning, it's just a funny military oaf playing an accordion to many who don't even know what the Balkans are). --Calthinus (talk) 20:12, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Calthinus, i agree wholeheartedly with that. But many editors thought that a trim down was needed and excluded those Balkan factors of the manifesto that were previously in the article. When they were in the article those Balkan factors kept either getting removed or targeted and i lost count of how many times i had to address that when it happened (most of those edits did not even have edit summaries). From observation the article is being edited at a fast pace so admins might not be keeping track of all edits.Resnjari (talk) 20:37, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Alas there is consensus which can be attained here. My very best wishes would you agree with a 2 or 3 sentence or so Balkan addition in the section? --Calthinus (talk) 20:43, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, certainly, but this is not really about the manifesto. See the previous paragraph about the perpetrator. My very best wishes (talk) 01:33, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Eh, are you negotiating edit space here? A contribution should be considered by it's content and quality, not it's amount of bytes. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 21:00, 17 March 2019 (UTC).

This really needs a focused RFC as the discussion here is all over the place. AIRcorn (talk) 21:18, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

@Aircorn: RfCs are more organized but also a much greater waste of time. More efficient are incremental mutually agreed upon compromises on individual points when you are dealing with something that is actually a collection of other statements -- not the best topic for an RfC as you'd end up with votes like "Oppose including sentence 1 and 2, include 3, exclude4, include 5-7...".--Calthinus (talk) 22:03, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

The best advantage of an rfc is they are a lot more binding. Here you may get a group of editors coming to an agreement, but then someone else will come along and change it and you are back to square one. Having an RFC to point to is a much stronger consensus to maintain. I would suggest that ideally two most likely options are developed and then a simple RFC is devised asking editors to choose which they think fits best. AIRcorn (talk) 22:24, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I would argue that multiple incremental mutually agreed upon compromises on individual points would take at least as long. Especially since in many cases they would be dependent, e.g. "Oppose including sentences 1 and 2 unless this modified version of sentence 3 is included." Few sentences stand in isolation. I would argue that there is no efficient way to do this as long as we write by committee. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:31, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I do think that having something on the Balkans is needed. He was clearly influenced by certain nationalisms of the region. And it was a motivation with his whole "Remove Kebab" thing and the many names of historical figures from over there. Most readers at the moment don't really understand the Balkan factor so a 2 or 3 sentences would go a long way to addressing it like "the gunman was influenced by so and so nationalism after having made trips to so and so countries etc" or something like that based on RS.Resnjari (talk) 13:59, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• Strong oppose to removing content from manifesto. The content that was stated in this edit should be restored. I already commented my thoughts, but I did want to make it unambiguous where I stand. Tutelary (talk) 00:39, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Are conspiracy theories always false?

The second sentence in the Manifesto subsection says: "The conspiracy theory falsely claims that immigration...is deliberately designed...to displace white people". I would like to consider whether the word falsely is appropriate in this section.

Are we trying to say that The Great Replacement theory is inherently false? Wouldn't that violate WP:OR, as well as WP:NPOV? Or is it a case of WP:OBVIOUS? That, by simply using the words "conspiracy theory", the reader will know (or should look it up), that this theory is almost certainly false? In other words, does Misplaced Pages insist that you follow every link in order to understand what is in this article? What if I had never heard of the phrase "conspiracy theory"? Would I then assume, as if told by God (or Misplaced Pages, take your pick), that this theory made false claims.

Off hand, I can think of four ways we can handle this:

1. Leave it as is: "The conspiracy theory falsely claims that immigration..."
2. Remove the word falsely all together: "The conspiracy theory claims that immigration..."
3. Put it in context by including a source: "According to Politico, that conspiracy theory falsely claims that immigration..."
4. Remove the entire sentence completely.

(There may be others.)

Now, just between you and me, I believe that The Great Replacement is a bunch of kaka. But it just struck me that, when I read the first words of that sentence ("The conspiracy theory falsely claims..."), Misplaced Pages was assuming facts not in evidence. I can imagine CNN doing what we're doing now (under time pressure) but I think that the PBS Newshour would put it in context.

Any thoughts? --RoyGoldsmith (talk) 03:56, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

If you believe that it is kaka, then let's rest this, and let people defend it who actually want to defend it. --denny vrandečić (talk) 04:00, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I also feel, here and in other articles, that adding "false(ly)" to 'conspiracy theory' is over-emphasizing the obvious and quite cringy: what is it supposed to add, and does it not unnecessary raise a question for sourced proof of the falseness? I'd say remove the word. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 04:07, 17 March 2019 (UTC).

Doesn't "conspiracy theory" by itself imply a degree of falsehood or irrationality? I think that should be sufficient. Dreadwyrm (talk) 06:44, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I would say it's a WP:PEACOCK term. Or maybe WP:WEASEL. Whether or not it's demonstratively false is irrelevant. It's still an analysis of the facts, and not a fact in and of itself. Let the statement stand without the injection of opinion.  DiscantX 18:28, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

It's moot now. The whole sentence has been edited out. --RoyGoldsmith (talk) 09:03, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 March 2019

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Video

New Zealand Police submitted an email to the operator of web forum Kiwi Farms, Joshua Moon, requesting the retention of "IP addresses, email addresses etc" linked to posts relating to the shooting and Brenton Tarrant. Moon declined to perform the retention.

References

1. Lankford, Adam, and Eric Madfis (2017). "Don't Name Them, Don't Show Them, But Report Everything Else: A Pragmatic Proposal for Denying Mass Killers the Attention They Seek and Deterring Future Offenders". American Behavioral Scientist. 62 (2): 260-279. doi:https://doi.org/10.1177/0002764217730854. {{cite journal}}: Check |doi= value (help); External link in |doi= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
2. Meindl, James, and Jonathan Ivy (2017). "Mass Shootings: The Role of the Media in Promoting Generalized Imitation". American Journal of Public Health. 107 (3).{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
3. Lankford, Adam (2017). "Do the media unintentionally make mass killers into celebrities? An assessment of free advertising and earned media value". Celebrity Studies. 9 (3): 340-354. doi:https://doi.org/10.1080/19392397.2017.1422984. {{cite journal}}: Check |doi= value (help); External link in |doi= (help)
4. Pew, Alex; et al. "Does Media Coverage Inspire Copy Cat Mass Shootings?". National Center for Health Research. {{cite web}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |first1= (help)
5. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-offers-us-assistance-after-horrible-massacre-in-new-zealand/2019/03/15/931833d2-4712-11e9-aaf8-4512a6fe3439_story.html
6. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/salvadorhernandez/trump-white-nationalists-new-zealand-mosque-christchurch?utm_source=dynamic&utm_campaign=bffbbuzzfeednews&ref=bffbbuzzfeednews
7. "NEW ZEALAND POLICE REQUESTED PERSONAL DATA FROM KIWIFARMS USERS WHO DISCUSSED SHOOTER MANIFESTO, VIDEO". One Angry Gamer.
8. "NZ Police Demand "Kiwi Farms" Message Board Preserve "IP Addresses" And "Email Addresses" Following Massacre". ZeroHedge.
9. "Kiwi Farms Refuses NZ Police Request to Preserve User IPs, Emails After Killings". CoinSpice.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.162.84.50 (talk) 11:14, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

No. Just no. You need a better source than "One Angry Gamer", to start with. ~ Anotheranothername (talk) 11:24, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Name a reliable source that you think would be acceptable, I'll write an email and get an article written for you. 75.162.84.50 (talk) 12:03, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

On second thought, I don't feel the need to. One Angry Gamer seems to be accepted as a reference on a handful of articles already. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?search=%22one+angry+gamer%22 75.162.84.50 (talk) 12:05, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

It depends on a topic. With a topic swarming with media coverage it's better to use newspapers of record. For an obscure video game topic with little coverage I can see "One Angry Gamer" being used. WhisperToMe (talk) 12:14, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

This isn't a gaming related article where such a source may be acceptable. Also since the subject of this article is so widely covered worldwide, at this early stage basically nothing should be in the article except for simple stuff where there's no debate over inclusion if it isn't covered in at least 5-10 different quality sources preferable independently (i.e. not just repeats of the same agency or whatever source). So find multiple quality reliable surces like NYT, BBC and stuff like that. If you present us 5 quality sources, we can start to talk. Note that this still doesn't guarantee inclusion. For example the Trump issue above I found about 10 sources and many of these look to be semi independent (at least 2 were agency but different agencies and I'm not sure if any of the others were) but still oppose inclusion. Nil Einne (talk) 12:18, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I've presented 4 sources discussing this. CNN is not going to discuss Kiwi Farms unless it's to blame the userbase for the shooting. 75.162.84.50 (talk) 12:21, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

You've presented 4 links. None of them are RS for this sort of thing. Actually, I'm fairly sure 3 of them aren't RS point blank. Nil Einne (talk) 12:25, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

BTW, if you have to scrape the bottom of the source barrel to find sources, that's often a very good indication that whatever it isn't worth mentioning in even a normal article. In this case you're actually completely outside the barrel, and it's a barrel larger than Lake Baikal Nil Einne (talk) 12:30, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Your idea of bottom of the barrel and mine are very different. Usually when law enforcement sends an email using an official address asking a service provider to retain information I find that noteworthy. 75.162.84.50 (talk) 12:32, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

It's not my idea, it's en.wikipedia's idea. If you don't believe me, try asking at WP:RS/N.Nil Einne (talk) 12:45, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a person. It has no ideas. Editor consensus is what creates and interprets policy. It is your idea. This location is a perfectly acceptable location to discuss the proposed edit. If you'd like to go somewhere else I won't stop you. 75.162.84.50 (talk) 12:47, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Except consensus was achieved long ago. Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Perennial sources already mentions Zero Hedge. Nil Einne (talk) 12:50, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Good job. How about the other two you've ignored? 75.162.84.50 (talk) 12:51, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

HTF is saying "This isn't a gaming related article where such a source may be acceptable" ignoring something? I'm not commenting further since your comments make no sense. I suggest someone else close this discussion. Nil Einne (talk) 12:52, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Good job. How about the other one you've ignored? I'm sorry I don't make any sense to you. Just because you're frustrated doesn't mean someone else should silence me. 75.162.84.50 (talk) 12:54, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Sources two and four are the same source, which appears to have been written by a fictional character. Try WP:RSSE.~ Anotheranothername (talk) 12:27, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Explain. 75.162.84.50 (talk) 12:35, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

See Tyler Durden Nil Einne (talk) 12:45, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I see a pseudonym, not a fictional character. Zero Hedge 75.162.84.50 (talk) 13:06, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I would like to point out it has been less than a day since the incident in question. Even if unquestionably reliable sources cover this it won't be a high priority and this shouldn't be scrapped immediately. 75.162.84.50 (talk) 13:06, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• The sources provided are not acceptable for this article; The lack of coverage by RS indicates this isn’t WP:DUE; There are no WP articles on Kiwi Farms or Joshua Moon suggesting they aren’t notable; You aren’t going to achieve consensus to include; Your snark about CNN is out of line in an article of a recent mass shooting. There is no there there. O3000 (talk) 13:17, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
• 75, come back when you have better sources. Check your sources at WP:RSN. "Search this noticeboard & archives". starship.paint ~ KO 13:19, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Here's a "better" source, though to be honest they don't compare to any decent blog post that believes in citing primary sources. Round 2, anyone? Wnt (talk) 04:11, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

You only have one source (two with the one below). There's no point re-opening this until we have sufficient sources that it's at least worth considering IMO. Nil Einne (talk) 10:09, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

@Nil Einne: He's not trying to start an article, he just wants a sentence. We don't require multiple sources for every sentence, or you'd never see a reference at the end of a line by itself. And what's the harm in it? It illustrates social issues directly related to the shooting. Wnt (talk) 13:42, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

The point is not that you need 5 refs for every sentence, but instead as I mentioned in the closed discussion that something which is so minor so that you can only dig out 2 RSes which mention it, is unlikely to be significant enough for us to cover. For nearly everything out we mention, it is possible to find at least 5 refs because these are stuff sources consider significant. The only prominent stuff I can think of where this may not apply is the country of origin stuff. But that's a more complicated case. For starters there are various problems with handling this so we have to take great care anyway, as mentioned in an earlier discussion. But also, the dispute over whether to include that info relates more to an "all or nothing" approach. If we do decide to include the info, there are clearly way more than 5 sources discussing the country of origin of victims. There may not be 5 sources for each victim, but the significance of the info and our decision to include it was partly informed by the fact it is something many think is significant. Again this isn't some minor subject that almost no source cares about. This is a shooting which continues to receive a massive amounts of attention. If you can only find 2 sources, it's fairly unlikely that info is significant. Nil Einne (talk) 14:33, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

A concern on motives

While I do not doubt at the end of the day, and by Occum's Razor, that the motives for the attack will be either or both of white supremacy and anti-immigration, it should be noted that it is at this point actually impossible to factually spell out a motive. Yes, we have the manifesto, but as the suspect remains alive and will be the subject of investigation, there may be different motivations than what the manifesto puts. We have to be careful about using mass media's "armchair analysis" here to ascribe motives before the official investigation and trial are concluded; media are not official enforcement bodies. Basically, its the whole "innocent until proven guilty" approach; we shouldn't be jumping to popular conclusions that can only by made by those in authority. --Masem (t) 14:42, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Agreed, but there is a certain amount of WP:BLUE here. I always remember the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting where a lot of the things that the media armchair experts said about the motive turned out to be wrong. In the case of the 2019 Christchurch mosque shootings, it would be very surprising if the motive was not white nationalist extremism.--♦IanMacM♦ 14:46, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

It is one thing if the suspect died; we'd only have the manifesto and his past history to go on, but that could still be misleading. I would have no problem that as long as where these are discussed as motives, they are noted as "presumed" to be clear they are not final, and should those motives changes after investigaton, no-harm-no-foul on WP as we made it clear they were preliminary assessments. But even then, we want those statements from officials, not from mass media analysis who are not part of the investigation. --Masem (t) 14:52, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

The alleged gunman did not kill himself, so at some stage we are likely to see him smirking at a trial like Anders Behring Breivik and reciting the reasons why he did it. I agree that Misplaced Pages articles should not prejudge official investigations, but in this case it would be unlikely if the motive was something other than white nationalist extremism.--♦IanMacM♦ 14:56, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

All my concern here is to make sure that any preliminary motives are noted as preliminary/presumed, and that these are only coming from law enforcement officials rather that mass media analysis. such as in the infobox, adding "{presumed)" after each that can be sourced this way, and other changes through the article. Once the official investigation is completed, then these can be removed. --Masem (t) 15:07, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• One motive listed is currently "Far right extremism" - after having read his manifesto, it is not clear to me that he is right wing; his values appear to be more inline with Christian extremism. Could someone explain why an attack on persons of non-white/European heritage (his claimed motive) is right wing? I suggest "Far right extremism" is replaced as a motive with "Tribalism", unless someone can clearly explain why he was right wing? He does not claim to be, but does claim to want to cause further tension between the already established political divide, particularly involving firearms in the US and predicts there will be a civil war there. His alleged motive is also strictly territorial, claiming to wish no harm upon his target demographic outside of a fairly predictable list of countries, which he considers to be being invaded. I suggest https://en.wikipedia.org/Territory_(animal) is added as a motive. He also stated that he will be smiling throughout the aftermath of the ordeal as he believes he is contributing towards a greater good. User:Bernabean

As I said in this edit summary, the manifesto is wide ranging and rambling nonsense from which people could interpret a range of motives. The article should also steer clear of the routine armchair expert hypothesis brigade, who are out in full force at this stage after a mass shooting.--♦IanMacM♦ 15:46, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Many people like to jump to conclusions, as if to satisfy their own need for clarification, but the picture that emerges from Tarrants actions and words is pretty nuanced, even if the results and the image of his deed are not nuanced at all. For example, ianmacm says above "it would be very surprising if the motive was not white nationalist extremism", and I agree, but the article speaks of White Supremacy, which does not seem to be Tarrants view and is something different, whether we like it or not. Bernabean makes a good point too. So I agree with Masem that adding "(presumed)" would be an improvement and the good thing to do (not everywhere, but certainly on first mentions and in the infobox). Jürgen Eissink (talk) 15:51, 17 March 2019 (UTC).

• Almost all RS (media) are attributing the attack to extreme-right and white supermacism. It doesnt even seem to be a matter of debate.Cinadon36 (talk) 15:55, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, obviously. My very best wishes (talk) 15:57, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• This case is very different from school shootings and even from the case of Breivik in one important aspect: it was committed in a place of worship and specifically against people who practice one specific religion. This is just as a matter of fact. What else motive can this possibly be except something already openly declared by the perpetrator? I do not see any problem with using the currently existing press coverage, as actually required by WP:NPOV. My very best wishes (talk) 15:57, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

In his manifesto, he claims that he targeted the mosque because it was an easy target, so he could kill more people. His manifesto says that Muslims do not represent his target, he says his target is any non-white European living on European soil. He noted some other advantages of piggybacking off of the existent tension surrounding Islamic extremism and his hope and expectation that this would accelerate an inevitable culture war. More than one popular media sources have taken obvious sarcasm from his manifesto seriously and shared it out of context, regarding Spyro being where he gained his ethno-nationalist (IIRC) views. Bernabean (talk) 16:39, 17 March 2019 (UTC)BernabeanBernabean (talk) 16:39, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

The Orlando nightclub shooting is another case where the RS media "experts" got the motive wrong. They were convinced that Mateen had chosen Pulse simply because it was a gay nightclub, but this turned out to be unsupported. It is important to remember that the media does not determine the motive, the official investigators do. This is a common mistake, the RS are not infallible and have got things wrong in the immediate aftermath of mass shootings. Don't worship the media coverage at this stage of a mass shooting.--♦IanMacM♦ 16:01, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Still, WP is "expert"-driven. Historians make mistakes as well. Everybody makes mistakes. WP is based on reliable media, such as NYT, Reuters etc. Cinadon36 (talk) 16:04, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

We document what RS say, and if they get it wrong, RS will correct it and we then change our content accordingly. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 16:06, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Except the mass media, unless they are quoting the police and authorities analyzing the case, are absolutely not the authority at this point - only until the investigation is complete. Everything they're saying is claims, but not factual, so we need to avoid putting their statements as factual. It is all related to the "innocent until proven guilty" aspect - not that this guy isn't guilty, but there is a whole legally-established process that the case will be reviewed through before a motive will be determined, and we shouldn't be jumping that gun just because RSes have. --Masem (t) 16:22, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Of course RS not infallible, and not only about current events, but in science and whatever. But it does not mean we should not follow WP:RS and WP:NPOV. My very best wishes (talk) 16:09, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Media say a lot of things here, and at best it seems the article is cherry picking: why choose as 'motive' in the infobox "white supremacy" and not "white nationalism"? Why "islamophobia", not "eco-fascism"? These alternatives can be found in RS too. And indeed: could not his motive turn out to be "tribalism" or "Christian extremism" or even something else? I'm quite sure in the days to come RS will raise those possibilities, if they have not already. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 16:22, 17 March 2019 (UTC).

In his manifesto, he claims that he targeted the mosque because it was an easy target, so he could kill more people. His manifesto says that Muslims do not represent his target, he says his target is any non-white European living on European soil. He noted some other advantages of piggybacking off of the existent tension surrounding Islamic extremism and his hope and expectation that this would accelerate an inevitable culture war. More than one popular media sources have taken obvious sarcasm from his manifesto seriously and shared it out of context, regarding Spyro being where he gained his ethno-nationalist (IIRC) views. Bernabean (talk) 16:39, 17 March 2019 (UTC)BernabeanBernabean

His manifesto is a Primary Source, it is not upon us (wp users) to analyze. Cinadon36 (talk) 16:48, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Given that media sources are presumably deliberately analyzing it very obviously incorrectly for rhetoric, I will analyze it myself and share my thoughts here. The Spyro quote is a short paragraph of a very unrealistic proposal regarding the influence violent games (Spyro is not a violent game by almost anyone's standards) has had on him and follows this up with a new paragraph which only says "No." It is very obviously sarcasm. This is one issue we will continuously face with people not reading the manifesto themselves and taking journalist's interpretations as fact. Bernabean (talk) 16:59, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• The source used for the motive of white supremacy says "...were allegedly carried out by white supremacists" - this is no source whatsoever, just journalists quoting other journalists. Bernabean (talk) 16:49, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

In previous articles about mass shootings, there has been a consensus not to use media reports to determine the motive ahead of the official investigation. We are now moving towards a similar situation here. While all the signs are that the shooter was a crackpot, the specific brand of crackpottery should be left to the official investigation, not journalists.--♦IanMacM♦ 17:12, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

There is a clear consensus here and in several discussions above to describe this act of terror as related to white supremacism. The sourcing is indisputable and impeccable. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:16, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

As long as its attributed to those opinions, then yes. But there cannot be any factual assertion of this at this point while the investigation and trial are open. The media have zero legal authority to make that distinction here. --Masem (t) 17:27, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

@NorthBySouthBaranof: The claim of 'clear consensus' is very misleading, because there is not consensus on that. The closed discussion above was about whether to include 'white supremacism' in the lead. And the claim of 'indisputable and impeccable sourcing' is not very convincing either. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 18:32, 17 March 2019 (UTC).

The sourcing is not indisputable (given that the manifesto is being suppressed and interpreted for us by potentially politically motivated journalists) and it's certainly not impeccable (the source provided for the motive of white privilege provides no real evidence, only speculation), your argument is the logical fallacy of the bandwagon. There is a very clear consensus in this section (a concern on motives) that the currently listed motives require improvement. Bernabean (talk) 05:50, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages articles are, by definition, to be primarily based upon reliable secondary sources such as those written and created by journalists. Your unsupported and frankly conspiracy-mongering description of those journalists as "potentially politically motivated" is both inappropriate and suggests that you may not be able to contribute to this article in a policy-compliant manner. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:15, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Does the fact that media agencies are potentially politically motivated really need sourcing? Well, here you go. Regardless, remove "potentially politically motivated" from the post and my point still stands. Regardless of their motivation, plenty of news sites are taking the manifesto out of context, see the references made to Spyro and how these articles haven't pointed out that it was very clear and obvious sarcasm; though I should point out these sources aren't being used on this WP page AFAIK. Do WP users not have any responsibility to vet the sources used? My point is that the source provided for "white privilege" is NOT a reliable source due to the source admitting that him being a white supremacist is "alleged". Are you OK with using that as a source? I'm not denying that he is a white supremacist, but according to his own manifesto (in my interpretation) he is at least as territorial as he is a white supremacist, yet media isn't reporting this, so we're unable to add it as a motive? Whilst his motive regarding territory as according to his manifesto could possibly be reduced to absurdity, it is still clearly one of his motives, as according to his own manifesto which, in this case, sadly cannot be directly quoted. Bernabean (talk) 13:51, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

A sentence completely missing from the code?

He was described in media reports as a 28-year-old Australian white supremacist who used neo-Nazi symbols.
I can't find this sentence anywhere in the code of the article. Why is it so? It needs editing, and nobody except for me sees an issue with it!--Adûnâi (talk) 23:58, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
And now it has been removed! Doesn't it have enough sources to remain?--Adûnâi (talk) 00:01, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

It was eventually edited because of it claiming the shooter to be a white supremacist. Also, what do you exactly mean by "is not in the code of the article", since it quite clearly now is. --Asdfäölkjhgfdsa (talk) 23:32, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Is 'perpetrator' New Zealand English?

I'm unsure of this, but to my Australian (maybe close to New Zealand) ears, perpetrator doesn't quite sound right. It has more of a US English tone. Would we be better off using suspect, or suspected attacker as the article is in New Zealand English?Mozzie (talk) 07:12, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I used to think the same, but plenty of NZ sites use the term. WWGB (talk) 08:00, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I was going to leave this, but then scrolling through the article just then I noticed that the term gunman is predominant throughout the article. Therefore, for consistency, I changed the two remaining references or perpetrator to gunman as well as the four mentions of attacker. If someone thinks another term is more appropriate I'm happy to change the term back, but just take care with links if doing global replaces.Mozzie (talk) 21:19, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Context matters. Talked about in a legal sense, perpetrator might make more sense than gunman. Talked about in terms of f.i. self-defence, attacker might make more sense than gunman or perpetrator. And when paraphrasing a source, it might even be a bad idea to change perpetrator into gunman; you can not just go whitewashing an article like that. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 21:28, 18 March 2019 (UTC).

Candace Owens reference

The manifesto section currently reads: "He also mentions Candace Owens as a major influence: 'The person who has influenced me above all is Candace Owens'. The shooter is clearly trolling here, as he does throughout the manifesto. The absurd nature of this claim increases when he later says of Owens, "Though I will have to disavow some of her beliefs, the extreme actions she calls for are too much, even for my tastes.”(source) It's dishonest to mention Owens here without clarifying the shooter's aim, which is to cast her in negative light, because in all likelihood he despises her, and is using her as the butt of one of his many sick jokes throughout the manifesto. It's also dangerous, given the possibility that a reader could take it seriously and seek revenge. - HappyWaldo (talk) 08:04, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

The Candace Owens Line

The line stating that Canace Owens is a major inspiration should definitely also mention that this is one of many cases of sarcasm and irony present in his manifesto. Leaving things ambigious like in this instance will lead to people being blamed that have nowt to do with any of this, the same way that people are already blaming video game Fortnite even though his reference to this in his manifesto was obviously sarcastic. Same old with Owens, who by the likes of the perp is seen as a laughably weak conservative, not even to mention her skin colours. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.213.112.75 (talk) 08:32, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

This article in The Atlantic is interesting. It says that the manifesto was "designed to troll" which is a common feature of 8chan, 4chan and similar sites. Quote from the Atlantic article: "Together, the posts suggest that every aspect of the shootings was designed to gain maximum attention online, in part by baiting the media." I agree that some of the things said in the manifesto should be taken with a large pinch of salt because they look like routine message board trolling. Some of the MSM sources haven't picked up on this. As the saying goes, This is Bait.--♦IanMacM♦ 08:49, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

With that Atlantic article as well as a National Review article, I expanded a paragraph on the Manifesto about trolling, and brought up the PewDiePie reaction into that as it is related to what these articles are saying. There's more than enough sources that talk of this being shitposting rather than a serious document. --Masem (t) 15:49, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Very obvious throwaway reference that the author probably got off on. Not notable.--Calthinus (talk) 17:57, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

There ya go

https://www.news.com.au/technology/online/website-kiwi-farms-refuses-to-surrender-data-linked-to-accused-christchurch-terrorist-brendan-tarrant/news-story/46d3c925ef84b24dde6194c42b3c2241 75.162.84.50 (talk) 09:47, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• WP is not a forum, the above link is not directly related to the Article. Cinadon36 (talk) 10:00, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

You still only have one source. As said the last time, come back when you have 5 or more and we can start to talk. There is no point announcing every one source you find. P.S. FWIW One Angry Gamer appears likely to be rejected even for gaming articles Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Video games/Sources#One Angry GamerNil Einne (talk) 10:06, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Wait, what? Five? What are you smoking? By the time he gets that he could start his own article on this point. With two he might face an AfD with the probable result of ... merging the content back here. Why don't we cut to the chase and save some time: put the fact in the article and move on. Wnt (talk) 13:47, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

As I explained above, this is an article with an extreme amount of coverage in RS at this time. It's highly questionable the relevance of any material which is only covered in 2 RS. Even that may not be enough. We still don't cover the kerfuffle over Trump's white nationalist comments despite it being covered in far more sources and was even something the PM was asked about. As things stands, it appears no one really gives a flying flip over what nonsense the Kiwi Farms want to talk about. Nil Einne (talk) 14:26, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

There is absolutely nothing wrong wth using this article from an RS to mention at least that 8chan, Kiwi Farms, and Voat are all under investigation as the suspect posted materials there. --Masem (t) 13:55, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Let's be clear the OP's proposal is

New Zealand Police submitted an email to the operator of web forum Kiwi Farms, Joshua Moon, requesting the retention of "IP addresses, email addresses etc" linked to posts relating to the shooting and Brenton Tarrant. Moon declined to perform the retention.

If you have some other proposal I'm not sure it's best to discuss it in this thread since it's only of marginal relevance. Nil Einne (talk) 14:36, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Which, as I said, is related to the three sites being investigated per the above news.com.au article. I've added about this investigation (one sentence) in the video section since its part of the NZ authorities trying to lock down this video where it logically fits; I didn't put anything about how the sites are reacting, yet. --Masem (t) 14:55, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support Masem’s addition to the article. It’s worth the one sentence note, and there is a relevant subsection in this article for it. starship.paint ~ KO 15:05, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

It would undoubtedly be notable if the New Zealand police became so annoyed with Joshua Moon's refusal to co-operate with the investigation that they applied for a subpoena in a US court. At the moment, Moon is laughing in their faces, but he would not be laughing so much if he received a subpoena.--♦IanMacM♦ 15:17, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, how Moon is responding is too much weight on something we don't know is undue. --Masem (t) 15:19, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

There's another. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12214017 75.162.84.50 (talk) 19:15, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• I've added it. It's essentially the same source in terms of content, but now there's extra notability to keep the sentence, not necessarily to expand it though. starship.paint ~ KO 07:32, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 March 2019

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Perpetrator also listened to "Grün ist unser Fallschirm" by Fallschirmjäger during the attacks. Mathiaslolkmagn (talk) 11:14, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

•  Not done: This is correct and the in car audio playlist also included "Gas Gas Gas". But WP:V becomes involved, and there doesn't seem to be RS for this at the moment.--♦IanMacM♦ 11:55, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

How do you know it's correct then? Benjamin (talk) 12:51, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Honestly, his playlist in the car seems like a tangential point. Because he was riding around in a car full of guns with the windows shot out from the inside I suppose some of the victims on the road and witnesses might have heard it, so it's not completely irrelevant to the shooting, but until we get the proper meat of the article developed, by which I mean the stories of the people inside the mosque, stuff like this is going to be at great risk of being axed by procrusteans looking to balance everything out to nothing. Wnt (talk) 13:53, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

There are numerous less-than-reliable sources giving the full music playlist in the car, and you could watch the 17 minute livestream video if you really wanted to. As with everything else about the shooting, the music playlist has been chosen for maximum troll effect. On another note, Arthur Brown dissociated himself from the use of his 1968 song "Fire" in the video. I wondered if this was notable enough. What do others think?--♦IanMacM♦ 13:58, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I think pretty much anyone who was in some way reference or had their material used and could be contacted has disassociated themselves. This includes for example the singer of Serbia Strong as mentioned in that article. (The in/famous accordion player is evidently deceased.) An exception is the obvious e.g. those actually involved in previous attacks etc. (I mean I'm not expecting comment from Anders Behring Breivik saying the shooter was wrong.) Although I wouldn't be surprised if even some of the more minor ones like those who just killed one or two people, at least publicly, disassociate themselves from this attack. I'm not convinced it's useful for us to list the rejection of every single person the nutcase somehow mentioned or involved in the attack especially since that would also require us mentioning these random people or the material in the first place. (In case it's unclear, that means I'm fairly doubtful there is a good reason to have an entire track list of the video.) Maybe it would be better to treat it like the country reaction stuff and limit it to some key examples primarily based on coverage with the rest in foot notes? Or alternatively only list rejections of those who we actually feel are useful to mention. (There would need to be a good reason why we mention that element in our article in the first place.) Nil Einne (talk) 14:47, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 March 2019

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Change “The gunman live-streamed part of the attack on Facebook Live” to “The gunman live-streamed the first attack on Facebook Live”. Removes ambiguity and clarifies that there were multiple attacks. 2600:1000:B032:89AF:8412:D08A:D71C:1B4E (talk) 13:11, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I originally wrote "first attack" but it has been changed to "part of the attack". I don't know why, does anyone? -Lopifalko (talk) 13:19, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Possibly because the live stream starts before the first attack and ends after he'd driven towards the second destination for a while, while letting off the occasional pot-shot. Nil Einne (talk) 13:35, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Agreed, at one stage after the Al Noor Mosque attack and while he is driving away, he lets off a pot shot out of the left hand front window of the car, shattering it. This is part of the attack, so I think the wording is better.--13:45, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Time of the Linwood attack?

There doesn't seem to be a public consensus on just when the attack at the Linwood Islamic Centre started. Very few of the many news outlets who covered the attack venture a precise time. Two of them are:

• 1:55 p.m.: Stuff.co.nz, which cites ​Latef Alabi, the Linwood mosque's acting imam, who said he heard a voice outside the mosque at about 1.55pm".
• 2:10 p.m.: Deutsche Welle, in "Timeline of New Zealand terror attack": "14:10...At the same time, a shooter enters Linwood..."

Which time is right? The shooter apparently started the first attack at 1:40 p.m. at the Al Noor Mosque, then drove four miles through the center of the city before attacking Linwood. This would seem to favor DW's version of events, but of course we're not supposed to guess at such things. Perhaps the article should note the uncertainty, the paucity of sources, and the discrepancy? PRRfan (talk) 13:20, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

You have there a source that is written in the first half day after the beginning of the shooting, when things were not cleared up. The source isn't very precise about the times too. There were initially reports of several shooters: it's like you are now saying "there seems to be no consensus on the number of attackers", based on an old source, while we are now three days further in time and have more information. Don't stick to one old article. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 18:31, 18 March 2019 (UTC).

That is a very good point, PRRfan. Based on my "original" research, both times are inaccurate and it was probably about half-way between the two reported times. Maybe a well researched timeline will eventually be published by a genuinely reliable source. As the person who added the 1:55 time to the article, I am happy now for you to alter that. Note in the info I removed in that edit, that Deutsche Welle had previously said 2:40, which they have since changed, without any acknowledgement (that I can see) that they edited their article. Nurg (talk) 21:54, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Jürgen Eissink, although the Stuff article was indeed written several days after the DW one, it attributes the time to one witness who gives an approximate time. This is not terribly convincing, or at least no more so than the DW piece, which at least evinces an attempt to bring various resources to bear on the question. Until we have a more definitive timeline, I propose to write "...continued at the Linwood Islamic Centre some minutes later; various sources give 1:55 and 2:10 p.m." with cites attached to each time. Sound good? PRRfan (talk) 02:51, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

No, it doesn't sound good to me. While I don't get the fixation of some editors on the exact time frame (I proposed to remove the completely useless detailed time from the lede, but to no avail), it's easy to deduce from (1) the first attack started at 1.40, (2) that attack lasted 6 minutes, (3) the ride to the next site is appr. 4 miles/6 km, (4) Tarrant at some points drove like the madman he is, that (conclusion) it did not take him 24 minutes to drive 4 miles. But if you want to maintain your point, I strongly suggest you get some better sources, but please don't feel the need to ping me again, because I think I have been clear and I'm not the head editor here. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 03:00, 19 March 2019 (UTC).

I'd love to have better sources. I looked; couldn't find any. I'm not at all dedicated to having an exact time in the lead. But I do think it necessary to do our best to establish a time at least in the Attacks/Linwood section. To that end, it would be useful to know your source for the 6-minute duration of the Al Noor attack. PRRfan (talk) 03:23, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, I've seen the video, but that doesn't count, so let me Google for you. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 03:32, 19 March 2019 (UTC).

Hey, while you're Googling, perhaps you could add that to the article? Just a thought. PRRfan (talk) 04:10, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Are you even serious? Jürgen Eissink (talk) 05:12, 19 March 2019 (UTC).

References

1. https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/zealand-mosque-attacks-scourge-white-supremacy-190315090752857.html
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/Argumentum_ad_populum
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/Media_bias_in_the_United_States
4. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/15/how-the-christchurch-shooter-played-the-worlds-media/
5. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/15/world/asia/new-zealand-shooting-brenton-tarrant.html
6. "Man who scared away gunman at Christchurch mosque hailed a hero". Stuff. 2019-03-18. Retrieved 2019-03-18.
7. Welle, Deutsche (2019-03-15). "Timeline of New Zealand terror attack | DW | 15.03.2019". DW.COM. Retrieved 2019-03-18.

This article needs MUCH more about the people in the mosques

We need much more of the sort of detail described here: Yeah, that's not a great source, but I like their attitude, and if you search a random name from it you'll find better sources, even for people not known to be victims (e.g.). There is a very unhealthy tendency in some Misplaced Pages articles to forget that the people killed and wounded and missing are the biggest part of any mass shooting story. If a moose walks out in front of a school bus, our article shouldn't be all about what happened to the moose. Wnt (talk) 14:01, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Except, victim lists tend to fail WP:NOT#MEMORIAL, barring if any of these people had some type of role in trying to stop the shooter. --Masem (t) 14:04, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

At some point when all of the victims are named, someone is going to add all of them to the article. Personally I would oppose this per WP:NOTMEMORIAL and WP:BLPNAME for the victims' relatives, but experience at other articles suggests that some users will insist on the full list.--♦IanMacM♦ 14:36, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I happen to disagree with WP:NOTMEMORIAL and WP:BLPNAME. But my unsuccessful attempts to argue against them — for example, that articles about military actions should include the names of of U.S. troops killed in them — suggests that this policy has become rather firmly embedded in WP practice. PRRfan (talk) 16:39, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• If any victims were significantly covered in multiple RS in connection with the shootings, some info about them must be included simply per WP:NPOV. My very best wishes (talk) 22:49, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Actually not really. NPOV talks about making sure to give appropriate weight to significant viewpoints, and the like, and certainly not to omit major viewpoints from authoritative RSes. It does not say anything about weight of various facts, and that's where WP:NOT takes over instead. We're summarizing the event, and going into any more significant details about the victims , outside those that were already notable, is not summarizing. Their individual identities is indiscriminate information in the context of the larger picture around this event. --Masem (t) 22:55, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Fraser egging

I think we should mention https://en.wikipedia.org/Fraser_Anning_egg_incident here, he was a senator.

What hot water a politician in a complete separate country got into for statement made related to the incident have extremely very little relevance on this incident itself. It can be discussed on Fraser's page, but linking it here would be inappropriate. --Masem (t) 14:53, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 March 2019

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Edit to clarify streaming sources. Was first streamed on live4.io then moved to facebook live

Addition of the music played during the attacks (over the attackers car speakers during the recorded live4.io video) "Kocayine - SERBIA STRONG!" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIcxqVRLEWI) "The British Grenadiers - Fife and Drum" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGrxHO-B2TY) "Grün ist Ünser (Fallschirm Remix)" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KZCiWizEkw) "Crazy World of Arthur Brown - Fire " (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLG1ys2CGcI) "Manuel - Gas Gas Gas" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atuFSv2bLa8)

Addition of car driven as some sort of Subaru 70.169.187.70 (talk) 14:34, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

The video is a bit complicated. LIVE4 GoPro is an Apple/Android app that allows login with a Facebook account, then shows the videos on Facebook. As far as I can see, Live4.io does not host or stream the videos itself on its website.--♦IanMacM♦ 14:44, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

References

1. "NO VIOLENCE". live4.io. LIVE4. Retrieved 18 March 2019.

Remove all those names he dropped in his manifesto

If we must describe what is in the manifesto (which in a sense makes us complicit in his trolling), I STRONGLY object to naming all the living people he cited in it. For God's sake, we devote most of a paragraph to naming them all! I think we should remove them all and summarize in a sentence or so - "In his rambling manifesto he named numerous living people as inspirations" or something along those lines. We have nothing except the word of a psycho murderer to link their names to this assault. Per BLP we need multiple reliable sources to include negative or controversial material about a living person; we have nothing close to that. IMO it is a BLP violation to list all these people here. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:30, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

What she said. O3000 (talk) 16:32, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Ditto. Being "named in a manifesto" does not reach the level of any meaningful connection. I could use the NY phone directory if someone wrote their "manifesto" on its pages - being mentioned where there is no actual nexus between two persons is absurd. Collect (talk) 16:36, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm not in disagreement with the above, but I do want to point out that in considering how the manifesto may just be a "shitpost" (stuff I added this morning), that RSes do mention PewDiePie and Cadance Owens regularly on this point, not so much putting any blame on them but that the manifesto may be designed to target these people by their critics for the blame game. As long as we're iterating that point by RSes, those two names should be kept. (And should Owens state something similar to PewDiePie that must be included). I do think the names help only to broadly categorize whom the attacker was praising but we can do that without the names, I think. --Masem (t) 16:40, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

The author of the manifesto showed a shrewd understanding of the world of alt-right memes and trolling, and some MSM sources fell into this well known trap. Misplaced Pages should be made of sterner stuff, and make clear that the manifesto is intended to troll. This leads to WP:BLP problems for the living persons named in it. They probably should not be named, or if they are mentioned, there needs to be context explaining the trolling mentality.--♦IanMacM♦ 16:55, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree with IanMa above, the entire point of the manifestio was to troll and can possibly lead to WP:BLP issues on the people who are named in it.TheMesquito 17:17, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Regarding Reliable Source coverage: in Google searching the only name I found repeatedly mentioned by mainstream sources was Trump's, and most of that coverage was about the White House reaction to it. Mentions of Oswald Moseley were not in mainstream sources. Mentions of Candace Owens were mostly in articles saying her name might have been included to troll journalists. We claim to follow Reliable Sources, but in this section we are way out ahead of them. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:25, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

P.S. I am drafting a proposed redo of the paragraph, which I will propose here shortly. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:27, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Due to the agreements above, and the urgency of dealing with BLP issues, I am going to go ahead and replace that paragraph with one that does not name any persons. We can continue to discuss and tweak here. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:37, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Done. I wanted to remove the Pew-de-pie reference too, but it had been so widely reported by Reliable Sources I felt I had to leave it in. I did remove the name of the channel's owner. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:53, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Good move. Thanks. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 17:55, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Everything else is fine but I disagree that we need to remove PDP's real name. That's his online alias, not really a channel name, and his is clearly public figure with a well known, long-established link between real name and online alias. Importantly we have his statement that distances himself from the attack, which is a necessity for BLP purposes; The others haven't spoken out yet about their inclusion so I agree removal there is appropriate to avoid implication (even though as worded by the press, they are clearly not trying to implicate any of these other BLPs) --Masem (t) 19:05, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

RE PDP: All of the sources used his real name, and he replied personally. If someone wants to restore his name that would be OK with me. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:58, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I've readded his name, but that's the only name that should be added at this point. --Masem (t) 20:24, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Imo we mention names if reliable sources provide a reason why they are relevant. It should not be wikipedia editors making the decision.--Calthinus (talk) 17:56, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

@Calthinus: my thoughts exactly. Cinadon36 (talk) 17:57, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Agree with Calthinus. If he baited the worlds press and they took the bait, then it is notable. If a section of the press describes it as ~bait then we can give it context. Using the manifesto as a primary source is going to lead to original research or quoting harmful nonsenses at length. Reporting the secondary interpretation of it is what we are here for. Use the names on a case by case, based on RS. Don't mind-quite like the changes made to the section though, just want the door left open. (Dushan Jugum (talk) 18:06, 18 March 2019 (UTC)).

"the manifesto is intended to troll", "the entire point of the manifestio was to troll" – this is completely ignoring that the manifesto was for the large part a lot more than that, namely an exposition of his worldview and his radical solutions to make the world – in his view – a better place. Do you think the court will ignore the manifesto 'because it is only trolling'? You let yourself being carried away if you really want to maintain that "the manifesto is only trolling". You might as well say the whole shooting was trolling and therefore should be ignored. Get a grip. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 19:33, 18 March 2019 (UTC).

By the way, the manifesto opens with Do not go gentle into that good night. I wouldn't call that trolling. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 19:41, 18 March 2019 (UTC).

At least when I added it, I carefully made the point that it is a possibly raised by journalists that this is trolling. We will not know if it is or not until the investigation is over, but there's also more than enough press coverage of this idea of it being a trolling action to not include at this point. This is why this point is also after all the serious threats or statements made about manifesto. --Masem (t) 20:31, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

In my point here I don't care in itself whether the manifesto should be elaborated extensively in this article, and it should and probably will get it's own page, but I react on the arguments you and others give. It keeps puzzling me how people here think they are able to interpret RS but refuse to even read the words of the suspect on which they spent days of their life to write an article on. If you would have only looked at the manifesto, you would know that the trolling might indeed very well be an element of the style of minor parts of it, but instead you get stuck in the trolling narrative of some RS editors and journalists, many of whom are not equipped at all to reflect on the broadness of an issue like this and are for a large part only parroting, if not confusing memes and motives in a powerless attempt to deduce meaning themselves. You, like many others, mix up the trolling parts of the manifesto with it's actual content. Maybe the trolling parts were deliberate attempts to gain extra attention (as if the massacre itself would not be enough of a statement), maybe (I'd say: likely) they were just a reflection of his mindset, but either way it's nothing but pretext to the content of the manifesto, and downplaying the importance of the manifesto for the attacker's motives is at least silly. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 21:16, 18 March 2019 (UTC).

That's the whole issue of original research. We as WP editors cannot seem to show any expertise on the manifesto - we can read what it has but we can't make any conclusions on our own. We have to turn to RSes. And that's where right now it seems most RSes are going past anything "serious" about the manifesto and compare it closer to a shitpost because its all over the place. Now, I am sure there are scholars and other analysts out there reading the manifesto and trying to develop a psychological profile, or try it to anything else, etc. That will take time. They are doing what we cannot. --Masem (t) 21:37, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

WP editors can make conclusions of their own, they just can not add their own conclusion directly to an article. We can show expertise and share opinion on Talk pages. Every editor makes considerations based on own conclusions. Editors can debate about which sources are more to the point than others on a certain subject, and different existing views can be addressed in the article. RS should not be taken at face value, especially in an epoch where they have failed the public time and again. It's not a crime to be critical, and for an editor that likes to take on major issue's it should not be a difficult task to ascertain from the primary source that to shelve the source as mere trolling is, if not malicious, a sad (self) deception. In a way, I think, partially the trolling is the message, and the message should not be ignored. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 22:27, 18 March 2019 (UTC).

There are sources that specifically discuss the idea that the manifesto was intended to troll and which go into depth on which parts of it are particularly likely to be trolling vs. accurately reflecting the writer's views. We should rely on those. For instance, see this one on Owens vs. Breivik or Trump. We can't decide which parts are worth paying attention to ourselves, and we definitely shouldn't try to analyze the manifesto ourselves, but we can and should use the analysis produced by reliable sources. --Aquillion (talk) 06:18, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, of course, but it helps if any editor that wants to edit the manifesto section has at least a basic understanding of its composition and content. I'm afraid some are too terrified to even look at the document and yet think they can value what RS say about it. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 06:30, 19 March 2019 (UTC).

P.S. In retrospect I can't believe that we included, even for a minute, the names of people he said should be assassinated. What were we thinking? -- MelanieN (talk) 19:56, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• The answer to that question is most likely just: "Oh, well here's a thing that's not on the Misplaced Pages article. Let me just add that in." This is one of the reasons why we can't behave like automatons when editing. Scrutinize your sources, cross-check with other sources, consider if the addition is useful, helpful, necessary. These are vital editorial processes that go above and beyond "well it appears in RSes". Mr rnddude (talk) 20:21, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
  • I think there's some common sense here. People that were named are all public figures, and those names were being pulled from reliable sources. So it seems reasonable (not that it necessarily is). Add that while there's active attempts to pull the video, there's little being done that I've seen about the spread of the manifesto. If it were the case that the authorities wanted the document kept a secret and some reliable press source leaked all those names, that would be definitely a reason to keep the names out. --Masem (t) 20:31, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
    • We should not have included, ever, names of people he wanted assassinated. Also, a lot of the names are listed with the intent to troll -- and it is specifically RS that say so (example: Candace Owens) so we have RS arguments for exclusion. In other cases -- Breivik, Trump, etc -- this does not apply as that is not the tone sources have taken. It's really pretty simple and not unethical.--Calthinus (talk) 21:14, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• If name of person X was mentioned in the "manifesto" and was discussed in multiple RS in relation to the shootings (including "manifesto"), this must be actually included per WP:NPOV. It does not matter who these people are. For example, Breivik definitely qualify. My very best wishes (talk) 22:36, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

You may be right about Breivik. Our article mentioned him only in passing, as one of many terrorists that he approved of (along with the likes of Dylan Root). However, Reliable Sources are making a much bigger deal out of a connection or inspiration between this attack and Breivik. Examples: Foreign Policy and the Norway Local. And the Sydney Morning Herald reports that the manifesto claims he had been in "brief" contact with Breivik; so does WaPo. I think we need to add a sentence about him. I'll do it. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:57, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• I'd oppose blanket removals, though we definitely shouldn't include any names that are just mentioned in his manifesto and nowhere else or which are mentioned only in passing in the sources, with no context to provide or evaluate relevance. When there has been substantial secondary coverage discussing a name in relation to his manifesto, we should consider covering it via that (with an emphasis on what that coverage has said.) In cases where the name has been mentioned but the context in reliable sources is dubious or skeptical (eg. Owens) we should decide on a case-by-case basis depending on the level of coverage, whether it's sustained in the long term, how focused it is on that aspect and so on. --Aquillion (talk) 06:12, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Why is everyone saying this guy is trolling? Is that for us to judge? Anything anyone writes could be serious or non-serious. As for what to repeat from the manifesto: stuff which the media has highlighted, I guess? If there are parts that were not focused on by reporters then they aren't important. -Oranginger, March 18 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oranginger (talk • contribs) 03:28, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Several reliable sources specifically said that believe him to be trolling, so it's important for us to take that into account and be cautious about eg. aspects that most sources are dismissive of, like Owens. That said, the sources also tend to emphasize that certain parts are trolling, while others are taken more seriously (or have connections to the topic that are citable to places other than his manifesto.) Also, there is a point where even if he's trolling, we might have to cover that trolling (eg. if it eventually turns out that there's an overwhelming volume of sustained coverage on his mention of Owens, which most sources describe as trolling or trying to target her.) But we should show some caution with those aspects. --Aquillion (talk) 06:12, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Link to Manifesto

Did we link the manifesto. I think it's important for wikipedia readers to have a direct link to it so they can read for themselves. CheersBaldr The Brave (talk) 17:07, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Gas Gas Gas place in a wrong order

Gas Gas Gas by Italian musician was the song which gunman played after his attack，he drove on the road in a fast speed while this song is playing according to the livestream. Patricklo0615 (talk) 17:43, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Complete list of victims

Can we have a complete list of all the victims of the murderer? The murderer has a full section detailing his name life and bio, while the victims remain anonymous. History should erase the name of the murderer but the victims should be remembered. We can use this list as a guide: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/16/asia/new-zealand-mosque-shooting-victims/index.html

Including their name, age and background should be a nice tribute to the innocent victims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.134.28.204 (talk) 00:14, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

These lists have become a major point of contention at each new mass killing article. Usually there is no consensus to include one, so someone starts an RfC on the question, and sometimes the RfC also fails to reach consensus. Per WP:ONUS, all disputed content is omitted unless there is a consensus to include it. I am opposed to such lists for various reasons that can be briefly summarized as (1) lists of names add nothing to reader understanding of the event and are not encyclopedic, and (2) naming random victims infringes on their privacy and that of their families, which does not become unimportant when they are killed. We have no way of knowing that the dead would care to be "remembered" in this Misplaced Pages article. I am less strongly opposed to lists that provide descriptive information but omit names, but some of the same arguments against also apply to them.
Your comments about the victims should be remembered and a nice tribute to the innocent victims are inconsistent with Misplaced Pages principles; Misplaced Pages articles are not memorials, and we don't let emotion determine our content. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:33, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a "tribute" site. Does adding the names improving the readers understanding of the article topic? All pointed out above, just worth repeating. --Malerooster (talk) 01:00, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a tribute, being on a page is not an honour. Perhaps this idea should be taken to the 9/11 page or the one on the bombing of tokyo. I do not think such lists will improve the pages use as an encyclopedia. Misplaced Pages is not a memorial and we should have very similar rules for a mass shooting as any other page.(Dushan Jugum (talk) 04:37, 19 March 2019 (UTC)).

• No, per WP:NOTMEMORIAL. We don't include the names of victims in articles purely to memorialize them or to attempt parity with the coverage of the killer. (I would be skeptical of the idea that being mentioned in an article is automatically a good thing anyway.) --Aquillion (talk) 06:24, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Without being a complete list, I'd like to see more information than the age ranging from 2 to 71. Men/Women and more specifics about the age, for example? Other than minimum one 2-year-old and minimum one 71-year-old it doesn't tell us much about the other 48. -Oranginger, Marc h18 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oranginger (talk • contribs) 03:31, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

See also section

I removed a link that was already in the article. I also tweeked the "warning" note a bit. I haven't followed the edit history to see what the deal was but I will. I would not add the Quebec and Cave of Patriarchs since that could grow to include a lot of other links almost list like, which this section is not intended for.--Malerooster (talk) 01:04, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

RfC: Change "white supremacist" to "white nationalist"

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Proposal: Change "white supremacist" to "white nationalist". 03:13, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Explanation: An earlier discussion decided that 'white supremacist' could and should be mentioned in the lede. Several editors, including myself, felt and feel that the more appropriate term would be 'white nationalist', but that encountered opposition with a reference to RS. Just now, I watched what RS are actually saying and it turns out that many mix the two terms, but it seems white supremacy is by number not in favour of white nationalism. Moreover, traditionally highly respected media chose to use 'white nationalist' in their titles, not 'white supremacist': AP, NY Times, Business Insider, LA Times, etc. etc. The current sources for 'White supremacy' are: The Sydney Morning Herald, Al Jazeera and Otaga Daily Times Online News.

Additionally, we now have the situation that 'white supremacy' is only mentioned in the lede and in the infobox, with just one (1) source quoted in the main body of the article ("white supremacist rhetoric"). The term 'white nationalist' in the article is now only mentioned once (so it is not even introduced), concerning a question to Trump that is appreciated as being important enough to mention in the article.

I very much favor to replace 'white supremacy' by 'white nationalist', not in the least as the alledged motive, because every assertion of white supremacy is linked to the manifesto, which denies, in word, white supremacy and is all white nationalist – exactly the reason that credible media outlets used the term white nationalist. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 01:05, 19 March 2019 (UTC). / Jürgen Eissink (talk) 02:29, 19 March 2019 (UTC).

Maybe unnecessary to add: the earlier discussion mixed up the (main) question about mention in the lede and the question of choice between supremacist and nationalist – it wasn't a pure discussion in this respect. Also: I present new 'evidence' (really a plethora of RS). While I think 'white nationalist' should be favored, 'white supremacy' can be mentioned as a paralel, related eco-system, of course. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 02:44, 19 March 2019 (UTC).

• Question as I am not an expert in this terminology: is it accurate to call Tarrant a 'white nationalist' in a New Zealand context when he is not a national of NZ? U-Mos (talk) 03:05, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Tarrant seems to hold the view that 'white nations' should be and should remain to be 'white', a view that is not restricted to NZ (or Australia). Jürgen Eissink (talk) 03:13, 19 March 2019 (UTC).

Nationalist makes more sense than Supremacist. Trump was asked about the "rising threat of white nationalism" for example, not "the riding threat of white supremacy". The manifesto self-describes "predominantly an ethno-nationalist" but he doesn't use "supremacist". -Oranginger, March 18 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oranginger (talk • contribs) 03:35, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree with the basic point that it was the media that pigeonholed the alleged shooter as a white supremacist. It isn't a phrase that the author of the manifesto used himself. According to White supremacy, "White supremacy or white supremacism is the racist belief that white people are superior to people of other races and therefore should be dominant over them. White supremacy has roots in scientific racism, and it often relies on pseudoscientific arguments." This is not an accurate summary of the arguments put forward in the manifesto. The author blathers on about the need for white people to be in the majority in their own countries, but does not say that non-white people are inherently inferior. This is more like extreme nationalism than racism.--♦IanMacM♦ 06:14, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• No for all the obvious reasons - This is not overwhelmingly supported by the sources, and might unduly constitute whitewashing. Only white supremacists care making such distinctions. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 07:17, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

  I seriously apologize. I didn't mean to accuse anyone of being white supremacist. I meant to say that White supremacists will vehemently rebrand themselves as "white nationalists", but in reality there's a not much distinction between the two. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 07:34, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Apology accepted and appreciated. I do recognize that white supremacists might call themselves white nationalists as some sort of excuse. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 07:41, 19 March 2019 (UTC).

Media traps

The line in the article "It was suggested that memes within the manifesto (such as the Navy Seal copypasta, which lists accomplishments such as having "over 300 confirmed kills") could be misinterpreted by the media." is well sourced and all, but it's worded to imply that this was only a hypothetical. In fact, several media outlets did report that the shooter claimed to be a navy seal with over 300 confirmed kills, taking the meme at face value.

Handschuh- 01:06, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Those do not look like reliable sources. --Masem (t) 01:12, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Seven News and The West Australian are unambiguously reliable sources. The Seven News clip is hosted on funnyjunk, but the source is Seven News. It may be found hosted elsewhere, but they've almost certainly burned it from their official channels. Handschuh- 01:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Neither of these sources appear to be reliable. 97.118.129.179 (talk) 01:26, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

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