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Kameez or kurta?

I thought I knew the difference between a kameez and a kurta, but now I'm not sure at all. The websites advertising Indian clothing USUALLY call a top for women a kameez, and a top for men a kurta, but there are also a number of sites that use kurta for women's clothing (neologisms like "shorty kurta" abound). Info from a native informant would be useful. Zora 18:58, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am not a native informant but i've read on one of the websites that the difference between them is that the kurta is looser while the kameez is more fitted. That's not too much but maybe helped a bit:) Nóra 22:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I think Nora is right. For women, a kameez is more form-fitted, often tailored, with its cloth/color etc. chosen to match the salwar or churidar; a kurta is looser, doesn't always reach down to the knees, and often made of different material (muslin, hand-loom fabric). For men, a kameez is more like a long western style shirt with (sleeve) cuffs and curved bottom (usually half-open in the front, i.e the buttons go down half way), and the material used is more likely to be cotton, often matching the shalwar; a kurta doesn't have cuffs, the bottom is cut straight (horizontal), and materials used are more likely to be muslin, silk, hand-loom fabric. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Kameez is an arabic word used by sindhis when they were under occupation of Arabs hence used mainly by north western indians/pakistanis, they adopted arabic word for their Kurta, kurta is a persian/sanskrit word which was originally used by indians even before the occupation and has been attested in several sources including al biruni, there is no difference other than being the names. Kameez usually has folded collar and buttoned sleeves and kurta has mandarin/nehru collar, other then these these minor difference i dont think there is much other difference. In India they rather call it kurta and in Pakistan they call it kameez. 202.188.44.54 (talk) 19:06, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Photographs

I have included a number of photographs of kurtas, both modern and historical. The modern photographs have close ups of different styles (and buttons). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

why is there a Persian or Arabian kid representing Indian clothes. We are not the same as Arabians and Persians it makes people think that we are the same. When our cultures are totally different......pictures should be changed to an Indian because there Indian clothes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.60.94 (talk) 12:13, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

There are many suppositions here: that the "kid" is Persian or Arabian, that the apparel is Indian (and not, for example, also Pakistani and Bangladeshi), and that a person modeling the clothing has to be from the "nationality" that the clothing item is most identified with. Can you find any Misplaced Pages policy that suggests this? Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:14, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Term 'Punjabi'

Doesn't the term 'Punjabi' refer to Kurta's as well? Wiki-uk 17:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think in Bengali (especially in Bangladesh/East Bengal) it is the same thing as a Kurta. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:32, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

why is there a Persian or Arabian kid representing Indian clothes. We are not the same as Arabians and Persians it makes people think that we are the same. When our cultures are totally different......pictures should be changed to an Indian because there Indian clothes

Recent Revert

Dear Fowler&fowler, I recently noted that you reverted my placement of the Hindi script at the top of the article giving "The word was borrowed into English from Urdu and in turn from Persian; Hindi doesn't belong here either." as your edit summary. Please look at the etymology of the word in Merriam-Wester's dictionary: Merriam-Webster: Definition of Kurta. The etymology entry on this reference states the following:

The etymology of this word is similar to that of Pajama. For these reasons, I am restoring the removed script and reference. Thanks, Anupam 18:38, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware of the Webster's entry, but Websters is not a definitive source for words in English of South Asian orgin. "Kurta" is orginally Muslim attire. Here is Britannica:

And here is Encarta:

"Kurta" is a little different from "pajama," because it came into English much later, in the early 20th century, by which time Hindi and Urdu had split into distinct languages, unlike "pajama" which was incorporated into English from Hindustani in the early 19th century. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:20, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your research. Even if the Kurta is originally Muslim attire, it is worn by Indians of all religions and is considered to be a part of the Hindi vocabulary (please see ) Regardless of when Hindi and Urdu became standard registers, Persian loanwords are still a significant part of Hindi vocabulary. Also, standardization did not occur until after the partition. Not only Merriam-Webster's but Random House Unabridged Dictionary states that the origin of the word is Hindi:

Thus far, two sources state that the origin of the word comes from Hindi. My additions meet Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. From my understanding, there is no Wiki policy that prefers OED over Merriam-Websters. In my opinion, a compromise between us would be to place Hindi after Urdu in the article. I hope this helps. Thanks, Anupam 04:50, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

"Kurta" is also a word in Bengali and Punjabi, with a longer history there, in fact, than it has in Hindi proper. So, why not include those scripts as well. It is enough to include only the script from the original language (in this case Persian/Urdu). Sorry, I don't see a place for devanagari, unless one also includes Bengali, Punjabi, Gujarati etc. I am happy to remove Urdu from the lead sentence and you can put Urdu/Hindi in the etymology section. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:21, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I can do that if you would like. However, I don't think that you understand that the sources I presented to you state Hindi as the language Kurta was derived from. I really don't see the problem with including all three languages in the lead, even other scripts, if they can be buttressed by sources as a major word in the langage. If you still object to the scripts in the lead, I can move them to the etymology section. Please let me know. Thanks once again, Anupam 05:28, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I am in a hurry right now, but neither Websters nor Random House (as a dictionary of American English) is a definitive source for South-Asian-languages words in English. To give a quick example, your Random House reference says that the word was incorporated into English during 1910-1915; yet, here is a quote from the article, "Hindu Pregnancy Observances in the Punjab", H. A. Rose, The Journal of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 35. (Jul. - Dec., 1905), pp. 271-278:

It is not clear how Random House made that determination. There are other examples from the 19th century, which I will provide later. The word Kurta (Coortah, Khurta, Coortee, Kurtah) is a loan-word from Persian via Hindustani (which in the late 19th century was the same as Urdu or Ordoo) and different from Hindi or Hindee. More later. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:24, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've reverted to your last version. The earliest reference I have is from 1858, Cave Brown's The Punjab and Delhi in 1857 in which British soldiers are referred to as "Lal Coortee Wallahs" (or "Red Shirts"). This was before they started wearing Khaki. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:23, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for research and understanding. Per your research and my references, we've decided to keep Hindi, albeit in different order. Thanks for your understanding and willingness to compromise. With regards, Anupam 19:24, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Questions

First of all why does almost everyone on the page wearing a kurta look white. Its that Persian boy? Second of all are you a white guy that thinks he knows everything about India? Third of all the picture you removed was a picture of me, taken by my camera from a March Masti festival, so why did you delete it? Perhaps you could give it a little make over with more modern Kurtas, like ones worn in Bollywood films or festivals, instead of just temples. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thai guy 01 (talk • contribs) 01:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

If the model is indeed a "Persian boy," as you conjecture, then it is historically meaningful, since the Kurta (both the garment and the word) originated in Persia. I have answered your question about the image on your talk page. It doesn't have meta data and is too low-res. Misplaced Pages is different from flicker.com we can't put our images there simply because we want to. The images need to be "encyclopedic;" in other words they need to illustrate clearly and informatively what is in the text. Your image, unfortunately, doesn't do that. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Panjabi

In mid-September user:Acsenray added "also called 'Panjabi' in Bengali" to the lead sentence of the article in this edit, one which I noticed only earlier this morning and which I reverted. My rationale for reverting the edit is simply that in Misplaced Pages we provide alternate names in English, but not those in other languages, otherwise the lead sentence in Trousers could become prohibitively long. He has since reverted my edit with edit summary, "Fowler: Your comment seems almost laughable in an encyclopedia where foreign names are given everywhere, including in this article - should the Urdu, Hindi, and Bengali renderings all be deleted?"

I am not sure I understand his/her comment. Providing (vernacular) scripts for vernacular words that have made their way into the English language is done in Misplaced Pages by common consent. (That "kurta" has made its way into English is not in doubt; both the OED and Webster's Unabridged have entries for it.) It's another thing altogether to introduce into the text words in other languages. Why, after all, should speakers of the two dozen odd other South Asian languages also not add their words for "kurta?" In his latest edit, user:Acsenray has compounded the error further by boldfacing "Panjabi", and thereby suggesting that the page name "Panjabi" redirects to Kurta. Panjabi, however, redirects to Punjabi language.

However, I went back and checked OED for "Panjabi," and it does have an entry (as a garment), similar to "Punjabi suit" for "Salwar kameez." In keeping with the precedent established on the Salwar page (by user:Zora almost two years ago), I am moving the reference to "panjabi" to a later sentence, and providing the OED reference. I have created a page Panjabi (garment), which redirects to Kurta. Also, I am removing the Bengali script in the lead. The word "Kurta" was incorporated into English from Hindustani language = Hindi-Urdu and it has Persian provenance. There is no reason for the Bengali script to appear there. However, if someone can provide the Bengali script for "panjabi," I will be happy to add it to the later sentence; better yet, they can do it themselves. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:36, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

PS Apparently, I seem to have myself forgotten what I wrote above a year or two ago. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:02, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:OR and WP:SYNTHESIS

Dear @Malikhpur:, I'm afraid I've had to run my red pen through most of the article because, respectfully, I believe you have been engaging in original research and synthesis. You seem to be the major recent contributor, but I haven't taken a careful look, so if it is not you, please accept my apologies. But in any case, we cannot do the kind of somewhat obscure research as I just removed. Our statements have to come out of scholarly recent work on clothing in India, not dated unreliable work of Ghurye (from 1951), or from district gazetteers, which have been found by searching for some specific words on Google. The regional styles section is not only unencyclopedic, but is also listy. Please reduce it to at most two paragraphs of descriptive prose without subsections. Please read List dos and don'ts. I hate to run a red pencil through someone's hard labor, but this is really not encyclopedic. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:44, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

I have condensed the regional variants section to two paragraphs as suggested above. (Malikhpur) 09:12, 10 April 2019 (UTC).

Thank you very much. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:41, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

India POV-pushing by IP

An IP has been engaging in the usual India-POV pushing that has been the bane of this page, and some other clothes-related pages of South Asia. Please understand that a kurta means collarless shirt in Persian, as the quote from the Oxford Hindi-English dictionary makes clear. The etymology of the word is related to Urdu and Persian, not Sanskrit, and adding obscure references that make Indian claims is not helpful. See Kurta: Oxford Dictionaries On-line, which says very clearly: "A loose collarless shirt worn by people from South Asia, usually with a salwar, churidars, or pyjama. Origin :From Urdu and Persian kurtah." Neither is it helpful when you replace pictures that have been in this article since 2007 by a random picture of a "modern kurta" with a mandarin collar. Please explain what you are attempting to do. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:40, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Kurtah is not used in persian language for their dresses, hence, no persian article for kurtah, the oxford dictionary source has not ben removed and it is menioned that persian maybe the source of word Kurtah, similarly removing other source for sanskrit origin should not be done, it appears that it is you who is pushing persian POV rather than Indians, because nobody has removed persian and oxford from the article. I also dont know why you removed Indian origin of kurtah, it appears it is you only who is pushing persian POV, you can make changes but you have resorted to remove an entire content include history and images, i also thought that modern kurtah image should best represent the article instead of the image you uploaded, again you are trying to push your image into the article intro, i dont recommend using inferior image in the article intro i do think that the image i have use is much better looking for the article intro. Your picture was never in the intro section anyway, so i have reinstated your pictures as it were before you made the changes.202.188.53.130 (talk) 00:52, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Can you read Persian?

Here is Steingass's dictionary of Persian: کرته (p. 1021)--kurta, A tunic, waistcoat, jacket; a long loose-skirted under-gown or shirt; a shirt.

Here is Raverty's Pushto (Afghan) English dictionary: کرته kur-taʿh (p. 785) P کرته kur-taʿh, s.f. (3rd) A kind of tunic, a shirt, a waistcoat or jacket. Pl. يْ ey.

Here is Platt's Urdu English dictionary: P کرته kurta , s.m. A shirt worn outside the drawers; a frock, a kind of tunic; a waistcoat or jacket.

Again if you cannot read Persian, if you cannot consult a Persian dictionary then why are you making fanciful claims on this page? Ghurye is not an expert on Sanskrit. He's a sociologist, whose specialty was caste. Please find me a Sanskrit dictionary that has an entry for kurta. I have just checked two Sanskrit dictionaries, Apte's and MacDonald's. Neither has an entry for Kurta.

I suggest that you revert your edits. My pictures have been in this page from 2007. I have written most of the descriptive prose of the page. If you do not, I will have no option but to post on WT:INDIA and ask for administrative intervention. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:09, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

The source has mentioned sources such as alberuni and Li yen in his sanskrit chinese dictionary has quoted kurtau as a sanskrit word for shirt which is equivalent of chinese chan link, link ii, link iii link iv Link v im trying to search more sources on it. 202.188.53.130 (talk) 05:16, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

These are entirely unreliable sources. I will give you 24 hours. If you don't produce something reliable, I will post on WT:INDIA and get administrative help. A picture has to illustrate the text in the lead. I am reinstating a picture that had stood in the article lead for seven years from 2007 until late 2014. Please read Misplaced Pages:Image_use_policy#Adding_images_to_articles. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:46, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

and why have you removed history and the ajantha painting picture? 202.188.53.130 (talk) 14:53, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Fowler's dubious western sources again

unsurprisingly frowler has added some western/ columbia uni sources that hindus used unstitched clothing before arrival of muslims, while he has completely ripped off pre islamic gupta painting and sculptures presumeably to prove this point and im tired of restoring them again and again, but questions must be raised even for these western claims, since there are plentiful pre islamic paintings and sculptures indicating otherwise not to mention western art historians commenting on indian paintings and dressing depicted in ajantha paintings for instance. Should we really honour such dubious claims in light of the evidences? 175.136.101.184 (talk) 04:35, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

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