Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 05:18, 21 December 2006

Proposed deletion

Comment: I see that User:Arthur Rubin has proposed this article for deletion. However, not only the editor of the book, but virtually every one of its contributors, meets Misplaced Pages's standards for notability. Hence, the book is notable, and not just "marginally" as Rubin claims. I also see a (probably intentionally disparaging) remark to the effect that none of the contributors to this anthology is an evolutionary biologist; that makes no difference whatsoever, since the book addresses the validity of a theory which evolutionary biologists merely take for granted, and the occupations of the contributors all arguably relate to that level of discourse (with the exception of the contributor whose occupation is not listed). According to the applicable standard, the book certainly belongs in Misplaced Pages. Asmodeus 19:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I looked at this as a Misplaced Pages:walled garden, but the I'm afraid the book does meet WP:BK. My mistake. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 18:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Attention JBKramer

Attention JBKramer: please discuss your objections here rather than using the edit summary to falsely accuse other editors of "editing disruptively to make a point". The subject of the book is not simple biology, but the overall theoretical integrity of Darwinism. Modern biologists merely apply Darwinism while taking its validity almost completely for granted; in order to neutrally critique the theory - NPOV, remember? - a higher level of discourse is required. Biologists typically don't function on that level, and therefore would not be expected to write a book like this one. I'm therefore asking you to either stop invoking this red herring in order to paint the contributors in a bad light, which is obviously what you're trying to do, or allow for some balance. (Also, please stop following me around and specializing in my edits.) Asmodeus 00:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

On this point, I strongly disagree, in regard the actual content of the article. If (as you suggest above) the authors' occupations are relevant, the fact that none is a biolgist is also relevant, given the subject is (generally considered to be) biology. The current sentence, "Although at least three of the contributors work in biology-related fields, none is a professional biologist." seems a reasonable compromise. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 18:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll go along with the present wording, although it still seems to me that "none is a biologist" has an inappropriately judgmental tone (given that professional biologists would be among the last people to write such a book, Darwinism being a canon of their discipline). However, I stand firm on my comments regarding JBKramer's misuse of the edit summary. Answering your request to improve the article hardly qualifies as "editing disruptively to make a point". Asmodeus 19:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Noting the book's relation to the Wedge Strategy

FeloniousMonk: You have insisted on presenting Uncommon Dissent as a "fulfillment" of the "Wedge Strategy" of the Discovery Institute, which implies a causal connection between the DI and the existence of the book. Yet, the DI per se did not write or publish the book. Accordingly, I requested citations substantiating your speculation (as opposed, for example, to ad hominem reliance on one of the editor's personal affiliations). Can you provide the requested citations? If you can, please do so immediately. Asmodeus 17:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Does fulfillment inherently imply a causative relationship? Let us, playing in court of the Abrahamic religion tradition espoused by the IDists, assume that the prophecy of a Messiah was causative in the death of Jesus. Would we be correct in so assuming? •Jim62sch• 00:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I agree with you on this point. Although the comments FeloniousMonk made make it morally certain that it is part of DI's "Wedge Strategy", it is WP:OR to state it in Misplaced Pages. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 18:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, you really need to find a new introductory phrase, because that one ain't worth much. •Jim62sch• 00:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk's observation that William Dembski is a senior fellow of the DI merely suggests that some people in the DI might see the book as "a fulfillment of the wedge strategy". As you observe, that's not good enough to satisfy NOR or NPOV. Happy Thanksgiving. Asmodeus 19:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

We seem to have a basic misunderstanding here, FeloniousMonk. ,, are short book reviews which do not mention the wedge strategy, establish a causal relationship between the wedge strategy and Uncommon Dissent, or even establish that the DI, as an organization, had anything to do with the book's publication. The kind of citation minimally required to support this speculation would be, for example, a verifiable statement along the lines of "I wrote/edited this book on a grant from the DI in fulfillment of stage n of the wedge strategy." Do you have one or more citations of this nature? If not, then your speculation is rooted in your own POV and should be removed. Asmodeus 17:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

As you and I already know the sort of cites you seek do not exist because the Discovery Institute denies it follows the Wedge strategy. Luckily the Dover ruling found the institute to be doing just that, so that much is settled.

Just because the Discovery Institute is playing that game does not mean we have to as well, and since they try to publicly distance themselves from their own strategy, denying us a primary source, the most the article can present is to note the book and the DI's cited hyping of it are consistent with the Wedge, which the article now does. Once secondary sources are provided, their observation of the book's role in the Wedge Strategy will be added as attributed, sourced opinion. FeloniousMonk 17:40, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that the DI is widely associated with the wedge strategy, I don't think you've established the relevance of this association to the book, or for that matter, the validity of ID critic Barbara Forrest's speculative thesis that "DI fellow Nancy R. Pearcey's writings in Uncommon Dissent evidence of the religious foundations of the institute's Wedge strategy and of intelligent design." Nancy R. Pearcey is one of fifteen (15) contributors to UCD, and allegedly religious comments from 1/15 of the contributors is not a basis for categorizing the book or its purpose. Since Barbara Forrest is not a contributor, her personal opinion regarding the particular essay submitted by 1/15 of the contributors hardly fills the gap. Thus, you need to show why it belongs in the article. Can you do that? Asmodeus 19:08, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Although I, personally believe, that FM and SA are correct that this book is part of the wedge strategy, we need an independent, reliable source stating that. One reliable source stating that the book is A, B, and C, and another one stating that A, B, and C are examples of the wedge strategy, is not adequate under WP:OR. I think the present revision may qualify, although it might need to go into that particular author's article, instead of this article. (In other words, Asodeus, if you delete it from here without inserting it into that author's article, I would consider it intentional POV pushing, and request appropriate action.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 22:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Johnson in Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds wrote: "If we understand our own times, we will know that we should affirm the reality of God by challenging the domination of materialism and naturalism in the world of the mind. With the assistance of many friends I have developed a strategy for doing this,...We call our strategy the "wedge." (pg. 91-92) A pro-ID book like Uncommon Dissent, put out by the founders of the Wedge, Johnson, Dembski, Behe, Pearcey, Denton, making all their same oft-repeated arguments will be another brick in the Wedge's pro-ID ediface by necessity.

The article as it stands now presents the viewpoint (which is notable) attributed to Barbara Forrest, who herself is notable for her writings on ID and her participation in the Dover trial where it was ruled ID is creationism, not science. Her citing of the book in her expert testimony is perforce notable in relation to this topic, and as such it belongs here, not buried at her article.

To the long-term contributors to the ID articles there's am all-too-familiar pattern here emerging -- content that represents the scientific community's viewpoint is constantly being removed, first as being uncited, then when cites and attribution is provided it's claimed it is not relevent to the topic. This constitutes a pattern of POV bowdlerizing, and will not fly.

Also, any contributors here who have a personal stake in this topic are requested to comply with WP:COI and WP:AUTO and limit their participation to the article's talk page. FeloniousMonk 23:27, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The POV of the scientific community regarding evolution is one thing; the POV of well-known ID critic Barbara Forrest regarding the raison d'etre of the DI is quite another, as is establishing the relevance of that opinion to this particular book. Regarding COI, it applies to you as much as to anyone else. WP:COI exists solely for the sake of NPOV. To edit neutrally is to adhere to the letter of WP:COI; to edit from POV is to demonstrate COI in the form of an inordinate psychological investment in the topic. That's all we need in this particular case. Asmodeus 15:56, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Forrest is recogized by the courts as one of the foremost, if not the foremost, expert on ID, period. That's why she was an expert witness in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, and the ruling there that ID is religon not science affirmed her testimony while dismissing that of the ID expert witnesses. The Dover ruling specifically said of Forrest:

"Dr. Barbara Forrest, one of Plaintiffs’ expert witnesses, is the author of the book Creationism’s Trojan Horse. She has thoroughly and exhaustively chronicled the history of ID in her book and other writings for her testimony in this case. Her testimony, and the exhibits which were admitted with it, provide a wealth of statements by ID leaders that reveal ID’s religious, philosophical, and cultural content." --Judge Jones, Kitzmiller v. Dover

I understand your need to continue to seek to remove these facts from this article, but they are now presented as a properly sourced attribution to a notable viewpoint. Anyone who argues that Forrest is not notable or relevent to this book and this article would have to explain away the evidence that she was found more than notable enough by Judge Jones for the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial , and that her expert witness report made explicit the connections between those who call themselves the Wedge, 6 of the 15 authors, and this book. FeloniousMonk 17:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Unexplained revert

My recent edit, which cited the book's characterization of Darwinism, requested citation for a claim, corrected the figure of thirteen contributors to fifteen, and added relevant external links, was reverted without explanation. Please explain reverts, and do not revert uncontroversial changes, like the fix to the number of contributors. Since the revert was wholesale, I don't know which changes are actually controversial, and which were reversed blindly. Please give feedback so we can work together. Tim Smith 19:57, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

What they are criticising is evolutionary biology, not Darwinism. There is a difference, . Paul A. Newman 12:46, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

What they are criticizing is something they call "Darwinism"; the book's title is Uncommon Dissent: Intellectuals Who Find Darwinism Unconvincing. "Darwinism" is an ambiguous term: according to our article, it can refer to evolution by natural selection, or to evolution more broadly, or to other ideas not directly associated with the work of Darwin. We therefore need to say what the book means by "Darwinism". Accordingly, I cited its introduction, which characterizes Darwinism by the central claim that "an unguided physical process can account for the emergence of all biological complexity and diversity." It might help to explain in the article that the term is ambiguous. Tim Smith 00:50, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I tried a direct quote from the first sentence of our article on Darwinism, explaining that it is "a term for the underlying theory in those ideas of Charles Darwin concerning evolution and natural selection", but it was removed and replaced with the claim that the book's contributors use "Darwinism" to refer to the theory of evolution. In fact, the introduction does not use "Darwinism" to mean evolution generally, but what Dembski calls "Darwinian evolution", and characterizes by the central claim I quoted in my post above. Furthermore, because the term "Darwinism" is ambiguous, the fifteen contributors might not all use it in the same sense. I therefore recommend restoring the quote from Darwinism, which covers multiple senses of the term. Tim Smith 05:47, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm guessing they are creationalists and thus they would probably be using "Darwinism" as pejorative for "evolutionary biology" and any other things they feel spin to their target audience, whether it is related to Darwin or his works or not. You're probably going to be flogging a dead horse here to remove the wording "which they use to refer to ..." as that is how they use it. I'm happy their misunderstanding stays as in the end this booklet is simply proposing pseudoscience (i.e. intelligent design) in contrast to science and thus nothing need not actually make any sense between their use of terms or understanding and science. Ttiotsw 06:31, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that we need to explain how they use "Darwinism". But we cannot do so by "guessing" about how they would "probably" be using it; we need cites. I've already quoted the book's introduction, and I suggest we also use the sentence from Darwinism quoted above, which covers multiple senses of the term. Contrary to this edit summary, the book's title does not show that its contributors reject evolution; as noted, "Darwinism" is ambiguous. Please engage in discussion rather than dismissing citation requests or reverting to unsourced claims. Tim Smith 22:17, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I haven't reverted anything - I just agree it's a waste of time arguing on reverts for such a simple section in the text. I'm just thinking of some other way of incorporating how they use all of "Darwinism" and "Darwinists" and "Darwinians" and remove any reference to evolution because truthfully nothing would make sense given it's a book of many authors. All those three words are found in the one-page summary at http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&program=Book%20-%20CSC&id=3605 Ttiotsw 22:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

No, to do so would be to promote a particular point of view - that of ID proponents, as your reliance on a Discovery Institute source proves. FeloniousMonk 23:17, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

So we would thus have to add in text on how each of these terms is used or can we just wikilink the terms ? These people have invented how they use the terms; it is not an undue bias to simply repeat what they say. We can't "neutralise" the usage ourselves - that's WP:OR - it must come from someone else notable who comments on how these IDers use the terms. Personally I'd just have a one-liner saying that the terms are used for effect and as a pejorative and leave it at that without explaining subtle differences between Darwinism and neo-Darwinism etc. If a wiki reader has hit this intellectual tarpit of ID the wikilinks on the terms would act as sufficient safety chain for them to haul themselves out to another article. Ttiotsw 01:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Ttiotsw—my last sentence applied to other editors, not to you. You're right to observe that it's a book of many authors, and they might not all use "Darwinism" in the same sense. So far I've quoted the book's introduction for its characterization of Darwinism, and I've quoted our article on Darwinism for a general description of the term. I'm also open to quoting notable outside commentary on what the book means by "Darwinism". What is not acceptable is for editors to repeatedly insert unsourced claims about what they think the book means by "Darwinism", repeatedly remove requests from other editors to supply sources for their claims, and do so without engaging in talk-page discussion, sometimes reverting without any explanation at all. Such behavior is disappointing and inappropriate. Tim Smith 01:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Verifiability

Earlier today I tried quoting the first sentence of our article on Darwinism for a general description of the term, while leaving untouched the claim that the contributors use it to refer to the theory of evolution, simply requesting a source for that claim and for another claim. The edit was reverted and the citation requests removed, this time with an edit summary beginning "rv per talk", by a user who has never edited the talk page.

In fact, with the exception of the single sentence offered above by FeloniousMonk, the only talk contributions for the last two days have been mine and Ttiotsw's. Ttiotsw and I agree that to insert our own views about usage would be original research: hence the need for sources. I'd like the editors who insist on removing citation requests and reverting to unsourced claims to please review Misplaced Pages's verifiability policy:

Please abide by this policy. Tim Smith 04:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

So I take it that you find the title of the book unconvincing? You changed the wording to "a term for the underlying theory in those ideas of Charles Darwin concerning evolution and natural selection". The use of the term "Darwinism" by Dembski et al. is well established in their writing - they use it as a term for the modern synthesis, not for "Darwin's ideas about evolution and natural selection. Since you are quoting policy

1. You can't use a Misplaced Pages article as a source
2. The way the "Darwinism" is used by creationists is well established. When you take their misuse of the term and replace it with a totally separate meaning you are at best engaging in original research, and at worst engaging in vandalism.

Granted, it's a common strategy for creationists to take long-discarded ideas in biology and use them to "debunk" evolutionary biology - while Wells has engaged in that nonsense, Dembski appears to have a tad more intellectual integrity. So your insistence that he has edited a book which focuses soley on outdated ideas in biology seems rather surprising. Are they really going around saying "oh, look, Darwinism is wrong because it uses ideas of blended inheritance, not genetics"? or maybe "Darwinism is wrong because it doesn't take into account genetic mutation"? Your assertion is not only ridiculous, it's also an insult to Dembski et al. - they may be wrong, but they aren't that stupid.

You have also added {{fact}} to the statement that "the book rejects the broad acceptance of evolution within the scientific community". Have you read anything associated with the book - maybe the blurb at DI's website which promotes the book? Even if you can't be bothered to do that, at least you could read the second part of the title of the book "Intellectuals Who Find Darwinism Unconvincing".

As for my rv "per talk" - your case has been debunked here on talk before. One can read a page without actually posting to it. Guettarda 07:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Tim's objections have indeed been shown to be baseless time and again... Yet they still keep coming. His method of using 'fact' and 'citation needed' tags to discredit content is getting ridiculous and becoming transparent. It's clearly not meant to improve the article but to lessen or exclude a particular viewpoint while promoting the rhetoric and narrow message of the ID movement. I too wonder if he's actually read this book, his calls for sources indicates he hasn't. There's a limit to the baseless objections, constant reverts and instances of misused tags editors here have to endure. FeloniousMonk 07:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I've added sources for you Tim. Since we're all here is there anything else needing support? FeloniousMonk 08:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

First, regardless of how the contributors use "Darwinism", a general description of the term provides valuable context here. Guettarda focuses above on "Darwin's ideas", but the quote actually says "the underlying theory in those ideas", and according to our article, the term can refer to evolution by natural selection, or to evolution more broadly, or even to other ideas not directly associated with the work of Darwin. To make that clear, it might help for us to use the second sentence of Darwinism as well as the first.

As to what the contributors mean, I've already quoted Dembski's introduction, which characterizes Darwinism by the central claim that "an unguided physical process can account for the emergence of all biological complexity and diversity". And again, they don't necessarily all use the term in the same way. James Barham even states that "it is incorrect to simply equate Darwinism with belief in evolution" (p. 177). He distinguishes empirical Darwinism ("the idea that the formation of new species is due to random changes in individual organisms that happen to be 'selected' by the environment") from metaphysical Darwinism (the claim that "the theory of natural selection has successfully reduced all teleological and normative phenomena to the interplay of chance and necessity, thus eliminating purpose and value from our picture of the world") (pp. 177–8).

The book's title says "Darwinism", not "evolution", and "find unconvincing", not "reject". The title indicates only this: that each contributor finds unpersuasive one or more aspects of what that contributor terms "Darwinism". In fact, their views are sometimes nuanced:

Robert C. Koons: "Of course, if evolution is defined broadly enough, there's little doubt that it has occurred." (p. 4)

Edward Sisson: "I use the phrase 'unintelligent' evolution to accommodate the possibility that an intelligent designer (or designers) theoretically might generate new designs (and thus produce the diversity of life) by causing preexisting species to undergo designed changes in DNA, and thus to undergo 'intelligent' evolution. (p. 75)

James Barham: "The real problem with the evolution debate is not empirical Darwinism. Rather, it is a sort of theory creep in which a bold but circumscribed scientific claim becomes conflated with a much more sweeping philosophical claim." (p. 178)

Christopher Michael Langan: "In this way, neo-Darwinist and design-theoretic (bottom-up and top-down) modes of causality become recognizable as complementary aspects of a single comprehensive evolutionary process." (p. 260)

Finally, please be civil and assume good faith. Tim Smith 03:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Facts

Regarding this revert, it is a fact that critics say Johnson, Dembski, and their associates use "Darwinism" to mean evolution. It is also a fact that contributor James Barham writes that "it is incorrect to simply equate Darwinism with belief in evolution", and that he distinguishes "empirical Darwinism" from "metaphysical Darwinism" (pp. 177–178). These facts help the reader to understand (1) what critics say the contributors mean by "Darwinism", and (2) what the contributors themselves say they mean by "Darwinism". Both (1) and (2) belong in the article. Regarding undue weight:

None of this is to say that tiny-minority views cannot receive as much attention as we can give them on pages specifically devoted to them. Misplaced Pages is not paper. But even on such pages, though a view may be spelled out in great detail, it should not be represented as the truth.

On a page specifically devoted to the book Uncommon Dissent, we can spell out in great detail what that book says, provided we do not represent it as the truth. Please, let's work constructively together to improve the article. Tim Smith 04:41, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Dispute tag

Unfortunately, I now feel it necessary to add a dispute tag to the article. At issue are two claims:

Claim 1: The book's contributors use "Darwinism" to refer to the theory of evolution.

Claim 2: "the book rejects the broad acceptance of evolution within the scientific community."

The sources provided for Claim 1 predate the book, and the claim does not accurately characterize all of the contributors; James Barham, for example, writes that "it is incorrect to simply equate Darwinism with belief in evolution" (p. 177). Consequently, the claim needs explicit attribution or qualification, like so:

In a letter written in 2000, philosophy professor and intelligent-design critic Barbara Forrest states that "Johnson, Demsbki, and their associates" use "Darwinism" as a synonym for evolution.

I tried adding the preceding sentence, but it was removed. To continue to state Claim 1 without attribution or qualification is neither factual nor neutral.

Claim 2 is unsourced, and has been unsourced since it was added to the article over three weeks ago. I requested a source the day after it was added; that request was reverted without explanation. I restored the cite tag; it was removed. I restored it again; it was removed again. I added it a fourth time; it was removed a fourth time. The fifth time took, but nearly three weeks later, the claim remains unsourced. With a source, it will need explicit attribution or qualification, as with Claim 1; pending that, it is neither factual nor neutral.

Additionally, this article is about a book, and would benefit from details of what that book actually says. The paragraph on Barham is a step in that direction.

A version of the article which addresses these issues can be found here. I hope we can resolve this dispute quickly and amicably. Tim Smith 04:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

These issues have already been discussed with you and you simply refuse to accept all evidence and reason that you may be wrong on these points. That a source predates the book in no way means that it does not support the passage in question and if another passage is uncited then go find a source for it instead of slapping "totallydisputed" on the article. Use of the "totallydisputed" tag in this instance is unwarranted and strikes me as a ploy to gain the upper hand in a content dispute which you've been stubbornly pursuing. I feel it is completely unjustified, over the top, and needs to come down. FeloniousMonk 08:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

With regards to the first statement, rejecting a source because it predates the book is incomprehensible. The "Dembskiite" position on "Darwinism" is well established. When they talk of Darwinism they mean evolution. They have used the term in that sense hundreds of times. Requiring a new source every time one of them utters the word is ridiculous.

With regards to the second statement - the modern synthesis (ie, evolution the scientific theory, as opposed to evolution the observed fact) underpins all of modern biology. By rejecting it, you reject "the broad acceptance of evolution within the scientific community". If, on the other hand, you say that they are not talking about evolution but rather just about Darwin's theory ("Darwinism") then they are just rejecting Darwin's theory (sans genetics and the last 150 years of research) in which case it's the most ridiculous of strawman attacks. And no, it isn't unsourced - it follows logically from the first. Guettarda 13:47, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Concur with FeloniousMonk and Guettarda. A few {{fact}} or {{cite}} tags still need to be resolved, but the {{totallydisputed}} tag is clearly wrong. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 14:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Claim 1 is that the book's fifteen contributors use "Darwinism" to refer to the theory of evolution. The sources provided for this claim are inadequate for several reasons. First, they say nothing about the book (in fact, they predate it), and mention only a few of the contributors, who are hardly carbon-copy "Dembskiites" with identical views. Second, we already know that the claim does not accurately characterize everyone—James Barham, for example, argues that "it is incorrect to simply equate Darwinism with belief in evolution" (p. 177). Third, the sources are not reliable—they are letters, not scholarly articles. Fourth, their authors are critics representing one side of a dispute; WP:NPOV tells us not to assert their views, but to present them. I am not "rejecting" the sources, but only requesting that their claims be explicitly attributed or qualified, as explained.

Claim 2 was added to the article by FeloniousMonk, who, incredibly, is now telling me to find a source for it. I advise him to press the "Page Up" key until he locates the helpful summary of WP:V posted earlier, where he will discover that "Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor" and that "The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it".

Even for contributors who use "Darwinism" to mean the modern synthesis, Claim 2 would not follow automatically. Claim 1 does not say that the contributors "reject" Darwinism; nor does the book's title. As noted earlier, the title indicates only that each contributor finds unconvincing one or more aspects of what that contributor terms "Darwinism". They may not fully accept it; that does not mean they reject it. Additionally, "the broad acceptance of evolution" is an ambiguous phrase which could just as well refer to evolution the observed fact as to the prevailing theory of evolution. Contributors can accept the observed fact ("if evolution is defined broadly enough, there's little doubt that it has occurred"—p. 4) without endorsing the prevailing theory. Claim 2 is both unsourced and unacceptably vague.

In disputed matters, it helps to stick closely to the sources, simply quoting what they say and letting readers draw their own conclusions. Shall we give that a try? Tim Smith 05:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)