Talk:Pat Tillman: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 18:14, 17 June 2020 editKonli17 (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users4,995 edits →Friendly fire ← Previous edit		Revision as of 20:03, 17 June 2020 edit undoAzureCitizen (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers10,194 edits →Friendly fire: Added reply.Next edit →
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	:The first sentence of ] states: "Friendly fire is an euphemism for a failed or misguided attack by a military force on friendly or neutral troops while attempting to attack the enemy." There's a suspicion that Tillman was deliberately targeted, which means we can't be reasonably certain his death was truly a result of friendly fire. But whatever way things went down, there's no doubting it was ]. If there was a section in the friendly fire article that covered deliberate or suspected deliberate fratricide, I'd happily link to there, but there isn't. ] (]) 18:14, 17 June 2020 (UTC)		:The first sentence of ] states: "Friendly fire is an euphemism for a failed or misguided attack by a military force on friendly or neutral troops while attempting to attack the enemy." There's a suspicion that Tillman was deliberately targeted, which means we can't be reasonably certain his death was truly a result of friendly fire. But whatever way things went down, there's no doubting it was ]. If there was a section in the friendly fire article that covered deliberate or suspected deliberate fratricide, I'd happily link to there, but there isn't. ] (]) 18:14, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

			::I read through the article just now, and saw deeper in the body the speculation by Chris Matthews in 2007 that Tillman was actually murdered based on the autopsy saying he was shot by .556 rounds from 30 feet away, followed by speculation from some FOIA requests, and then a quote to a self-web-published opinion piece by Michael I. Niman, claiming that Tillman was about to go public with anti-Bush administration views then suddenly got dead on a patrol in Afghanistan, insinuating that he was killed to silence him. Not a lot of quality RS content to go on there (some of it happens to have COPYVIO problems as well as RS and DUE issues). Even if it were well sourced and substantial from the point of DUE, however, "fratricide" is still the wrong term. The right term in that instance would be alleged killing, murder, or assassination (the latter especially in the context of politics). When used in regard to the battlefield, "fratricide" is still an accidental killing just like friendly fire, not a deliberate killing (like the way "fragging" is used in colloquial military parlance). The Army defines fratricide as ''“the employment of friendly weapons and munitions with the intent to kill the enemy or destroy his equipment or facilities, which results in unforeseen and unintentional death or injury to friendly personnel”'' (1992). Regards, ] (]) 20:03, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

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Synopsis is incorrect

At the very top of the article, it is stated Tillman completed multiple tours before being killed. Later you say he was killed DURING his second tour. One or the other is wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kenfo 0 (talk • contribs) 23:14, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, ref 2 says "Tillman served in several tours of duty, including time in Iraq as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom as well as a stay in Afghanistan to serve in Operation Enduring Freedom." The article could perhaps be clearer either in wording or which references it uses to support the content in that respect. Something interesting for you to sort out if you wish... --Mirokado (talk) 23:31, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

"Pat Tillman Biography". 2006 A&E Television Networks.

Where was he born?

There is an inconsistency in this article, the second paragraph says he was born in San Jose, CA but the sidebar says Fremont, CA. 208.54.5.165 (talk) 07:42, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Yeah where was he born 65.128.229.224 (talk) 18:07, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Rank

OK so if was posthumously promoted to corporal from specialist, should the pictures of him alive be labelled "corporal" or "specialist"? The DOD reports cited in the article consistently refer to him as "specialist". --jpgordon 18:40, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Does this alleviate the concern over any confusion that might take place as to his rank and the photograph? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 18:58, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

That edit is both simple and elegant; works for me. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 19:08, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

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Forced Fumbles and Tackles

The forced fumbles in the article and in the stats box do not match up and the article says 3 but the stats box says 1 and 1 is correct according to NFL.com. Also the hyperlink to NFL.com shows him having 184 careers tackles, not 238.JMOUNT28 (talk) 19:27, 18 September 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JMOUNT28 (talk • contribs) 16:05, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

References

http://www.nfl.com/player/pattillman/2503360/careerstats. {{cite web}}: External link in |website= (help); Missing or empty |title= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help)

Friendly fire

@Konli: Four times now (1, 2, 3, 4) you have changed the description and link in the lead from the friendly fire article to the fratricide article. Your last edit summary stated "The DOD can call it , but that assertion isn't backed up by what we know of events." What do you mean by that comment? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 17:57, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

The first sentence of friendly fire states: "Friendly fire is an euphemism for a failed or misguided attack by a military force on friendly or neutral troops while attempting to attack the enemy." There's a suspicion that Tillman was deliberately targeted, which means we can't be reasonably certain his death was truly a result of friendly fire. But whatever way things went down, there's no doubting it was fratricide. If there was a section in the friendly fire article that covered deliberate or suspected deliberate fratricide, I'd happily link to there, but there isn't. Konli17 (talk) 18:14, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

I read through the article just now, and saw deeper in the body the speculation by Chris Matthews in 2007 that Tillman was actually murdered based on the autopsy saying he was shot by .556 rounds from 30 feet away, followed by speculation from some FOIA requests, and then a quote to a self-web-published opinion piece by Michael I. Niman, claiming that Tillman was about to go public with anti-Bush administration views then suddenly got dead on a patrol in Afghanistan, insinuating that he was killed to silence him. Not a lot of quality RS content to go on there (some of it happens to have COPYVIO problems as well as RS and DUE issues). Even if it were well sourced and substantial from the point of DUE, however, "fratricide" is still the wrong term. The right term in that instance would be alleged killing, murder, or assassination (the latter especially in the context of politics). When used in regard to the battlefield, "fratricide" is still an accidental killing just like friendly fire, not a deliberate killing (like the way "fragging" is used in colloquial military parlance). The Army defines fratricide as “the employment of friendly weapons and munitions with the intent to kill the enemy or destroy his equipment or facilities, which results in unforeseen and unintentional death or injury to friendly personnel” (1992). Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 20:03, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

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