Misplaced Pages

"Powerful enough to demand" a "free" photo?

This is with reference to your statements at Misplaced Pages talk:Elimination of Fair Use Rationale in Promotional Photos/Vote#My own view and Misplaced Pages talk:Publicity photos#This page is dangerous implying that Misplaced Pages is now powerful enough to get freely licenced images of celebrities (and other promotional images).

It might be possible to get images licenced for free use/copying/distribution. But I wonder if a sizeable number of celebrities/photographers would allow for free modification of their photos, realising all the consequences. User:Nil Einne has a nice description of things allowed by "free modification" that people might not imagine when we ask them for a freely licenced image (added in this edit).

I have also noticed that at times people forget about the "free modification" clause of copyleft licences when talking about free licences (e.g. once I found that many licences allowing unrestricted use/copying but not explicitly mentioning modifications were tagged as free licences at Misplaced Pages:Image copyright tags -- discussion here). Due to this, we might get some celebrities/photographers to give us a "free" image, without their understanding that we allow unrestricted creation of derivative works.

Due to this, if someone takes such a photo from Misplaced Pages and creates an image that is not to the celebrity/photographer's liking, they might sue us saying we misinformed them about the "free licence" we are asking for, and consequences of derivative works.

Hence we have to make sure the celebrity/photographer understand that we would allow creation of derivative works not to their liking, in which case, I guess we would mostly be refused a freely licenced photograph. -- Paddu 21:02, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Obviously we should not list licenses that does not allow modifications to the content as free licenses. If you have any particular ones in mind you should bring that up over at Misplaced Pages talk:Image copyright tags (or just remove obvious cases). I know the BSD, GNU, CC, MIT, FAL licenses listed are ok. I did remove a couple of the NZ government tags listed there though, and some in the "general purpose" category could probably wanrrant some closer examination, so you are correct, we need to be carefull in what we clasify as "free content", allowing modification is one of the "must haves" to qualify. --Sherool (talk) 21:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo, can you or the Board of Trustees launch a public request for free images, maybe aimed at notable personalities directly? I believe such request would be much more powerful than any we can individually do, and would really help us to have the Foundation in our backs when requesting images from personalities. -- ReyBrujo 15:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am happy to help with this. What I would recommend is that we first prepare a letter for me to send, a letter to the major publicists for Hollywood stars, perhaps, as a start. I can email this letter to them and also release it as a press release. I recommend that we recommend to them to use CC BY-SA, since that's a license people can better understand than the GNU FDL.--Jimbo Wales 01:39, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

A simpler solution to that problem

Perhaps we could consider allowing the "ND" tag on Creative Commons licenses for images of a living person used in an article for purely identificational purposes ... and only for that purpose? I know that wouldn't prevent people from using the images for derivative works, but they'd not be doing it with the original creators' permission. Daniel Case 07:12, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

That solves the problem you think is involved but does solve the problem actually involved. The problem is that the goal of the Wikimedia Foundation (and its long time supporters) is free educational resources with free not just meaning no cost but also encompassing all the freedoms free people should have with regard to information of all kinds - including the freedom to alter it and distribute it. Freedom is not something to sell out for the sake of a pretty web page. On the other hand, a no cost distribution of educational images that unfortunately are not totally free is a useful compromise at times. This is the issue and the debate. WAS 4.250 09:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Larry Sanger "co-founder" questions

Jimbo, you've been objecting to calling Larry Sanger a "co-founder" of Misplaced Pages, on IRC and elsewhere. I have read your arguments, that Larry was an employee of yours when Misplaced Pages was founded, and that you were committed to anonymous editing by anyone while he was not, leading to several arguments. I had been convinced; in fact just a short time ago I removed a reference to "co-founder" from Sanger's article. But then thinking about it and digging deeper I came across and was surprised to read:

• Sanger proposed using a wiki to simplify Nupedia's arduous review process shortly after a January 2, 2001 dinner with Ben Kovitz where Ben described Cunningham's wiki software, and your agreement to this proposal was the beginning of Misplaced Pages.

• Sanger coined the name "Misplaced Pages"

Are those recollections accurate? If either is, I think you should not object to anyone calling Sanger a "co-founder." The American Heritage Dictionary defines the verb "found" as, "to establish or set up." Creating the proposal leading to a thing's existence certainly qualifies as helping to establish it, and naming a web site is an important part of setting it up, I am sure everyone would agree.

You might also want to consider why this means so much more to you than anyone else, such that you have had to ask others to remove the "co-founder" label in several locations, and whether you want to be known as someone who has such strong feelings about labels which at best are only borderline-inaccurate, concerning an issue in which you are personally involved. I offer these questions and comments only as a passing acquaintance and admirer concerned for your image, and I hope you will take them that way. 75.35.77.22 02:28, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Please stop raising this issue. You will only get the same response. And I highly suggest that you stop editing your comments once they are published. Thanks and have a good day!--CJ King 02:39, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I've never raised this issue before. Until a few weeks ago, I didn't even know it was an issue. As for editing comments, this is a wiki, and if I make a typo I ought to correct it. 75.35.77.22 02:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

My only issue here is that Misplaced Pages ought to remain neutral on the subject. --Jimbo Wales 03:10, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Nobody asked about your issues. The question warrants a simple yes or no response. Do you have a different recollection than that offered by your fellow founder of this project? Where's your openness and wikilove when push comes to shove? Apparently your respect for truth and neutrality stops when you surf out of the namespace you created into the public media, where your mission seems to be to skew truth toward your own liking. Your public commitment to transparency apparently ends when you enter an IRC channel to plot how to foist your version of Wikimedia history on the public through the media. I and many others would kindly appreciate if you would expedite your retirement from the board of directors, and take your Bomis buddies with you. Thank you for your contribution, but as you said, it wasn't you who figured this out, it was all of those volunteers. Aside from fostering the environment of hatred, abuse and self-service that now dominates this site, your primary contribution here has been cash and in-kind services, but not encyclopedic content nor effective leadership. Your services are no longer required. Truth up 04:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

One reason conflict of interest is an issue in creating an unbiased encyclopedia is that everyone has biases and those biases include believing things that make oneself look better in one's own eyes. Everyone misremembers things in ways that promote their own psychcological health and as Wales and Sanger are both human, we can assume each will remember and believe and hold to be important things that accord with their own psychcological health. As writers of Misplaced Pages it is our job to make the articles reflect the best reliable published sources we have. I know Jimmy Wales agrees with this, even if it is really really galling to him that he knows some things in Misplaced Pages are wrong based on his own memory. Now where's that book on memory; I know I left it right there ... WAS 4.250 05:17, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Seems to me this is Jimbo's user page, and common courtesy dictates that he gets the same right as everyone else to be final arbiter of how he is presented on this page, particularly in any controversy. By their very nature, user pages have come to present us from our own POV, and I do not see that Jimbo needs to be an exception.

If, however, this were a bio article, he would have to be presented in accord with valid and verifiable evidence from all sides and a neutral POV, which might (and in the past, where there have been both userpage and bio articles for the same person, often has) present a different picture.

There is an oriental saying: "Each man is three things, as he sees himself (userpage), as others see him (bio article), and as he really is (reality)". --Zeraeph 11:21, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The claim that users are allowed a right to arbitrate how others see them on their user page is false. Users are routinely preventing from editing a user page and a user talk page assigned to their user name whenever any one of 1,000 secret administrators gets the whim. Then, users are represented as criminals ("vandals"), subhumans ("trolls") and con-artists ("sockpuppets") sometimes in perpetuity with no opportunity for a user to rebut the attacks of anonymous agents of Wikimedia Foundation. It is funny how these idealistic policies get trotted out when needed to defend the faithful but trampled under foot when someone decides it is convenient to dehumanize a contributor contrary to the stated policies used to attract naive new contributors. Truth up 05:07, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Zeraeph, you misunderstand the issue. It about wikipedia articles. WAS 4.250 11:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I doubt if I do, because this is the talk for Jimbo's user page, where the "co-founder" question is becoming, at least, a long running "revert scuffle".

What appears in any Misplaced Pages article related to Jimbo, Misplaced Pages, or Larry Sanger should surely be neutral and presented in accord with whatever valid and verifiable sources that can be cited for it.

What appears anywhere else is very unlikely to be under our control in our role as editors of Misplaced Pages and thus is not worth discussing. To question Jimbo about this issue here is, strictly, bringing off Wiki issues onto Misplaced Pages and no more in accord with protocol than if somebody chose to bring personal off-Wiki issues to my user page or yours. --Zeraeph 12:09, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

This issue existed since 1 or 2 years ago when Jimbo edited his article and there was a news story. It's now only brought up because of a certain website posting chat logs. Anomo 12:13, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The issue is the content of wikipedia articles: , , . WAS 4.250 13:23, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Which should be discussed in those locations. As far as I can see the only issue that needs discussing here is this . --Zeraeph 13:50, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Since Wales is a user who has edited those articles about himself, it is appropriate to approach him about the matter here. "Wrong forum" is a standard dodge used in this club to misdirect anyone who offers criticism that somehow upbraids the wikifaithful. Since Wales promotes an "eventualist" philosophy of publication, since there is ongoing public discourse about the matter and since Wales broached the issue in a secret venue used primarily to conduct foundation-related business, it is as urgent that the discussion continue here as it is a pretty red stop sign with a hand be placed on a page when a user contributes something an admin doesn't like. Truth up 05:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi

So my efforts on the article have all been reversed, and pretty much misunderstood. I'm a little sad, but I cheer myself with some other work I'm doing. It's an uphill road, so I'm writing you in order to lighten it for a minute.

Today is the traditional Mahayana Buddhist new year. In fact, I just found this out today - which is funny because I am one. We had a wonderful time, however, January 1. In any event, I'm using it as an excuse to give you my very first "card". I've found all the buttons at the top of the edit page very helpful!

• Please click on useless image. Happy New Year from a complete maniac. Nina Odell 19:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Sincerely,

Nina PS: I don't know why the image is gone. Perhaps it's something to do with your page. Anyhow, it was a free image I found at Commons. It's called "Lights of the World", and is a poster of all the lights around the world that can be seen from space. I saved it to my desktop, to remind me of all the Wikipedians out there. Do find it if you've never seen it. Nina Odell 11:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It's back! Yay! Nina Odell 15:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It won't be back for long. It is a copyvio because it is a photo of a poster. For the original NASA image, go to the NASA website. For example, a copy is here. The posters you see are from companies that use the original images, or even the original satellite data, and play around with it until they get something that looks nice. But that takes them time and effort. We can't just copy that. If a Wikipedian were to obtain one of the NASA images and play around with it themselves, that would be fine, IMO. Carcharoth 11:30, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Here is an example of a website containing original DMSP data: . Carcharoth 11:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Winston Olde English Bulldogge

Hello,

I made a post at both the Vandalism page and the Investigation page and both were reverted by an editor named yandman so I am going to post my request here in the hope that it can be resolved fairly.

The article Winston Olde English Bulldogge was at wikipedia yesterday because I worked on it and now it is deleted without a vote. This is a breed a dog and should be in Misplaced Pages. I have been advised that JzG has decided on his own that the article is not warranted and it was deleted. He recently tried to have the Olde English Bulldogge deleted with a vote and it is not succeeding, so now he is simply deleting dog breed articles he does not like. I would like the article brought back and a vote taken. I believe that this dog breed exists and it should be in Misplaced Pages. Thank you Headphonos 10:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

To discuss the deletion of a page that you feel wa unwarranted, Misplaced Pages has Deletion Review. To list it at Vandalism and Request for Investigation or applying directly to Jimbo Wales is premature and not the best way to resolve this. Fram 11:03, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Try talking to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Dog breeds and see what they say there. Nina Odell 13:30, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip, I have made a post here: Post Headphonos 19:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

A search of "Winston Olde English Bulldogge"(which took .05 seconds) yielded 492 hits, along with a placeholder for this article in the Misplaced Pages article Old English Bulldog. Headphonos, I'm sorry. It doesn't look like your dog is notable - pfft - of course it is. Please consider sticking around Misplaced Pages. Nina Odell 21:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Why?

Just... Why? 58.178.64.147 12:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Because. Dar-Ape 03:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Great Place!

Hi, I'm just here to say that Misplaced Pages is the greatest thing on the Internet that i've ever found. It's a nice place to meet people, but it's also a great thing for when i'm in school writing those long essays. I'm really just saying: Thanks Jimbo Wales! Misplaced Pages is GREAT! Have a nice day, RyGuy Happy New Year!

I second that! | AndonicO 16:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course, I have to third that. Template:Emot Yuser31415 23:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Proposal from Novartis to collaborate with Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Molecular and Cellular Biology

Hi there One of the group leaders at the Genomics Institute of the Novartis Research Foundation has contacted our Wikiproject and is proposing a large-scale collaboration with Misplaced Pages. The talk page is Here. You might have a lot to add to this discussion so we would appreciate your input. TimVickers 18:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikisaria

I removed a badly-written, all-lowercase, unsourced section from your biography that had been there for at least a week here. It made me wonder: (1) Why didn't any of the hundreds of Wikipedians remove it and (2) You should really scan your article every few days, if you don't already. -- Chris is me 19:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, Jimbo shouldn't edit his own page (he's gotten in trouble for that before ;-). Also, that section is correct, and though it wasn't the best section, it wasn't all that awful (except that "Google-killer" part). Prodego 03:45, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually it was pretty awful, with numerous inaccuracies. But that is not wikipedia's fault, the media butchered the story pretty badly.--Jimbo Wales 13:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

GIGO Exus79 00:09, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

True nuff. I stubbed and cited the section in question. Anyone is free(I suppose I don't need to say this, but whatever) to use the reference and expand or find others. I suppose I should care more about the section topic, but I seem to be missing a gene somewhere that enables me to do this. Nina Odell 02:16, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello!

I am making a website and I want YOU to be one of the admins! This website is not open yet but ill tell you when it does! Fattdoggy 20:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The Showster

Hey Jimbo, about a week ago you decided to unblock The Showster (talk · contribs) based on this thread. The Showster is attempting to get an autoblock template up, but can't seem to get it straight. While he's still working on that, I'd just like to ask if you would mind reviewing the situation to determine if an unblock on the IP address would be a good idea. As you may be aware, The Showster was blocked as part of Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Bowser Koopa. Based on the case history and Dmcdevit (talk · contribs)'s block on it the day of the closing of the checkuser request, I assume that 209.244.43.209 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is the IP that The Showster will be requesting an unblock on whenever he figures out how to use the template. I'm just curious if you would mind taking a look at the checkuser history surrounding this case. Do you think that unblocking The Showster's IP will open up a huge can of worms? Or do you think it should be okay? Thanks, Metros232 06:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it is fine to unblock. He will be under no special protection from me. If the username or the ip misbehaves, we can treat it as a normal case. The only reason I unblocked is that someone indicated that they were being blocked as collateral damage in a sockpuppeting case. Do I believe it? Hmm, doesn't really matter. It costs little to give it a go and see what happens.--Jimbo Wales 13:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Freedom and patents

I didn't think Richard Stallman's concerns about patents subverting copyleft licenses applied to Misplaced Pages until I read this. WAS 4.250 09:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't get it. It's just something about artificial intelligence. Anomo 10:55, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The company intends to patent algorithms that use Misplaced Pages's internal links as a source of data so that we ourselves at some future date would have to pay a royalty to expand our own encyclopedia's software (example: searching) even if we wrote the code from scratch ourselves. Anyone familiar with existing software patents, for example on using a single click to buy something, can see the implications of this. See Transcript of Richard Stallman speaking on GPLv3 in Torino; 18th March 2006 for background. WAS 4.250 14:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

One possibility is to create forums on a Wiki site to brainstorm future possible uses for all our data and discuss algorithms for implementing them. If all the ideas are "prior art" in the public domain, then they cannot be patented. The Wiki would be a record of the idea being released to the general public. Any company applying for a patent would have to prove that they had the idea before it was posted on the Wiki. Maybe this should be Wikifree.org? A site for free ideas. (I just bought the name to protect it). Has something like this ever been discussed? --Samuel Wantman 20:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

What if the idea was discussed on some obscure Misplaced Pages talk page somewhere? Could that prevent the patent stealing the idea, or do we have to follow up with the idea ourselves? I support the idea of a free brainstorming wiki to come up with ideas - and Samuel, maybe you should set it up as a Wikia anyway, and get people participating. Carcharoth 11:19, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not a patent lawyer, though I do have a patent in my name. My understanding is that all patents must reference "prior art" (which is all the ideas that are closely related to the patent) and demonstrate how the idea is novel and not a derivative of the old ideas. Prior art includes previous patents, and ideas in the public domain. By disclosing an idea before a patent is applied for, you put the idea in the public domain. As for Wikia, I would feel very uncomfortable setting this up in Wikia. Wikia is not a non-profit corporation. -- Samuel Wantman 20:51, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair use of news media photos for historic events

In case you weren't aware, there's an interesting battle going on at WP:IFD over a number of fair use photos that have been taken from news media sources. See , for instance. Basically, a question which is coming up that the community is having a hard time deciding is this: WP:FU counterexample #5 specifically mentions that it's not fair use to use a news media photo to illustrate an event, unless the photo itself is significant and that is being discussed. However, {{historicphoto}} is directly at odds with this, and claims that it is fair use to use a photo of an unreproducible historic event. Care to comment? I know this kind of thing is important to you. Mangojuice 13:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think that the {{historicphoto}} template is a reasonable one, if used in an extremely sparing way. For example, any random picture of Elvis is in some very stretched sense historically unique, but we should be able to get plenty of freely licensed photos of Elvis. Surely someone saw him in concert or took a picture. This is different from a photo which is really the only possible illustration for an article, like if there was some unique historical event, and the article is about that event, and there are either no photos or so few photos that there is just no way we will ever get a free one.--Jimbo Wales 20:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Would there be some kind of threshold for the importance of that historic event? In other words, how unique is "unique"? I think it clearly helps justify fair use if the event is at least an important one, as opposed (say) to something like Uma Thurman attending the 2005 Oscars.. which is arguably unique, and no free images may exist for it, but we don't need to cover that. Mangojuice 15:42, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I am curious as well. Even in the case of something like a photo from the war in Iraq where it's almost certain that we will not find very many free photos, how we claim fair use on a current-day news media photo (when the article is not about the photo itself)? The photographer/news agency makes money on royalties from that photo and we would be using the photo in the exact way that they intend to profit from it. Obviously, I will respect your wishes and not submit any such photos to IFD unless they are the more obvious case you mentioned (a random photo of Elvis), but I must admit that I'm scratching my head a little bit on it. --BigDT 19:52, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

ProtectionBot

How do you feel about this? It's a bot request for adminship. I'm sure that they'd all love to hear your stance on it. Cbrown1023 15:41, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

It would please me for the code to be released under a free license. I do understand the security concerns about that, but find them not fully persuasive. It strikes me as quite easy for someone to write a bot to vandalize wikipedia, and keeping bot software secret in an attempt to prevent vandalbots from being created by fools is security through obscurity... it might work for a while, but it gives a false sense of safety.

As a separate comment, I should add that I am 100% in favor of bots being given the admin bit selectively.--Jimbo Wales 20:10, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Censorship

I am honored to speak to you, Mr. Wales. It is out of your kindness that you have permitted lowly Users such as me to communicate with one as kind, generous and clever as you, and I am elated at this chance to talk about you. Your online encyclopedia is an excellent reference source for my kids and my students. However, I was just wondering if there is a project page for censorship. thanks! Librax 19:57, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Which raises an interesting question: What is the correct title we should use for you, Jimbo? I would have thought that 'Sir' should have sufficed.  :) Chovain 03:56, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Librax,

Deskana was kind enough to answer on your talk page, as did I. Jimmy always likes to hear from people, but can't respond as quickly or as often as he might wish to (a supposition on my part). I doubt he considers you a lowly user. In fact, you're highly treasured on Misplaced Pages as an educator, mother, and woman. The combination is lovely! Nina Odell 14:11, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo in signatures

There's an An/I thread going on (User EaglesFanInTampa using nickname of 'Jimbo' in signature) about the use of "Jimbo" in signatures other than your own. What are your thoughts on this? Hbdragon88 20:27, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, there are other people in the world who are named / nicknamed Jimbo, so it's not necessarily an attempt to impersonate Mr. Wales. However, perhaps it would be better if they added an initial or something to their sig to disambiguate; I once used "Dan" in my sig, but changed it to "Dan T." after I got some complaints of confusion because somebody else who had been around earlier and was more notable in the community was using "Dan" as his sig already. *Dan T.* 04:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Subtle Donation fraud

Dear Mr. Wales

What is Wikipenta ( Penta is the German user name )

He ask for a donation on his account Account Number is his.

This looks too much official ( like the real wikipedia donation ) in my personal point of view.

Please stop this kind of nonsens.

I am quite convinced that the last € donation over Wikimedia e.V was missused and that there was some kind of bribery and corruption. ( some kind i do not know exactly what was going on ) The last German Focus Magazin said the same if you read between the lines.

Anyhow lucky to see that the donations are managed from the main branch again. But it would be still very necessary that the donators could get transparent informations where and for what the money has been used for.

Kind regards and a Happy New Year.--Ekkenekepen 09:19, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Look, enough is enough, we should not be tolerating this trolling and libel. – Chacor 11:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Puha this aint no libel this aint no trolling but probably you will learn to differentiate words. Many greetings to Wikimedia e.V with which you seem quite obviously connected. otherwise you would not write such really stupid nonsens ( Be aware and read carefully I did not mean in any ways that you are stupid )

Happy New Year and Greetings to the ones in the back office I think you are just their Marjodomo--Ekkenekepen 11:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Well done, making personal attacks on JIMBO'S PAGE. – Chacor 11:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I had to go trough much more than this peanuts in de wiki so that aint no libel or trolling at all--Ekkenekepen 12:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Poster of above has been indefinitely blocked. --Sam Blanning 14:27, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Search

Hi, I would like to draw up your kind attention that wikipedia search has totally recked down. Kindly see. Thanks Sushant gupta 13:44, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

If Misplaced Pages's search is down, try Google's (type in site:en.wikipedia.org searchterm). Google often works better than Misplaced Pages's built in search even when it is working.

You will also get a faster response to technical issues at the village pump or help desk. --Sam Blanning 14:44, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Emergency!! Invitation from Business Weekly Magazine in Taiwan

Hi Jimmy:

My name is Hung-ta Lin. The senior reporter of Business Weekly magazine in Taiwan. I really have an emergency here. People in Academia Sinica told me you agree to interview with us on March 10 in Japan. But we don't know the time, place and other details of this interview.

Before we fly to Japan for this interview, we wish to discuss all details with you. So we really need to know how to contact you.

This interview is different. We let you decide which topic you want to talk. It will be a special report or cover story. The report may contain 10 pages or more. So, it takes some time for us to discuss the detailes. I sent my proposal to you jwales@wikia.com and wikispeaker@gamil.com account. The subject is "An invitation from Business Weekly magazine in Taiwan to Misplaced Pages founder Jimmy Wales".

My email account is hung@mail2000.com.tw. My another email account is hung@bwnet.com.tw I really need to contact with you!! Please send me an email as soon as possible!

Thank you very much

Hung-ta Lin

Business Weekly magazine: the most popular magazine in Taiwan.

I've decided to bring this to your attention

Hi. My name is PL (DB). I'm rather pleased to actually speak to you. I really love Misplaced Pages and I can't spend more than a week without editing it since it's so enjoyable and educational. Now then, I want to have your authorization about one thing: If I continuously remove warnings/comments, etc., from my user talk page, will I not be warned, blocked or anything? I really want you to say that I can since you're the mastermind of Misplaced Pages. Now, the only warnings I won't remove right off the bat are those that I deserve for vandalizing and whatnot recently (also those given to me by an Admin.) I shall only remove Admin. warnings/comments given to me only after some time has passed. So... Is there such a template of yours that says This user is cleared to remove warnings/comments, etc., by my authorization, Jimmy Wales. Or something like that... do I have your authorization, sire? PL(DB) 19:40, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you just archive everything up to a week ago? Everyone is authorised to remove old comments from their talk page, including warnings, so long as the warnings aren't recent and their problematic behaviour isn't continuing, so you really don't need the founder's blessing. There should be no problem if you just move old comments to a subpage (User talk:Power level (Dragon Ball)/Archive) and link to it at the top of your user talk page. If you do that and someone reverts you saying "you removed warnings", I'll revert them myself. --Sam Blanning 13:47, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

That's the thing! I don't wanna archive everything (even though I already have an archive). I wanna just refresh my entire talk page. I mean, it is my talk page, right? I have been told that I can blank my talk page but two bad things will happen to me, One: I will be frowned upon, Two: The arbitration commitee will do something about me (which is kinda scary when ya think about it) Besides, Lord Jimmy Wales is head of that department, right? I mean, he is the co-founder of Misplaced Pages. I really need him to create a template for me or something showing that I can refresh my user talk page without getting warned or harassed for refreshing it. Also, the past warnings, comments and all will still be in my history page, right? And like I've said before, THE ONLY WARNINGS I WON'T REMOVE ARE THE ONES THAT I JUST RECIEVED ON THE SPOT. I'LL ONLY REMOVE THEM AFTER SOME TIME HAS PASSED AND I HAVE BEHAVED. Ok? (Me | The Article) 17:02, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

MR. WALES!!! IF YOU'RE ONLINE, PLEASE, please, I need to know if I can blank my user talk page!!! Thanks. (Me | The Article) 01:57, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Trademark infringement on Adwords

Hi Jimbo... You guys might want to do some trademark enforcement. It's getting silly. I saw one that was "en wikipedia org" and it was a website selling prescription medication or some such. It's getting silly. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 02:44, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The third one appears to be a weird feature of Google more than anything else. As to the others, I wonder whether anything can actually be done. --Deskana (For Great Justice!) 20:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Not sure either... ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 16:50, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Problem with current events in the German Misplaced Pages

Hi, I want to point out on an issue in the German WP, on current events. During the last months there's a rather rigideous faction of wikipedians -- many of them are adminins -- which consider any articles on current events as not encyclopedic and as a result such articles get deleted or have to go survife a raunchy request for deletion discussion (the German nick for that page is deletion hell). The latest instance is de:Mordserie in Ipswich 2006 (the English equivalent is 2006 Ipswich murder investigation) but another was the German version of 2006 Qana airstrike which got deleted in August and even the article about the last year's war in Lebanon as a whole had to survive the deletion hell. I don't expect any specific (re)action, my intention is rather to determine what really WP wants. Is it correct that -- since WP is flexible and can be changed at any time -- articles on current events are welcomed (similar stated in the German rules for deletion) or is it true, that according to that faction, writing articles about current events isn't encyclopedic, because about such events can be written only the event settled and books (!) have been written about it, i.e. newspaper or online sources, even serious, like the New York Times or Germany's Der Spiegel or BBC-News aren't reliable sources for writing a wikipedia. That faction's main argument is, such stuff belongs to wikinews.

Of course many first attempts of covering a current event are badly written, unsourced, biased, or worse. OTOH, many people are interested in the topic, they all do research. It's much more difficult to write an article one year later or two when sources aren't available anymore. Search in newspaper archives are not for free and not every contributer has access tp public libraries. As a result, for instance, the German WP still doesn't have an article about the elections in Venezuela. It also doesn't have an article about the 2006 Thai coup d'état. Why? -- Would you like to work for the rubbish can?

IMHO, many new wikipedians are joining the community during major current events and because of fluctuation, because of people are unhappy, they leave -- so new wikipedians are needed all the time. I also think that most new users are joining the community during and because of a (major) current event occurs. It's highly frustrating if you start to work together with some fellow writers about a topic which is in the news and then some people come and tell you that your work is worth a s nothing, because it just happened and is in the news and we should go and write it at Wikinews.

During the last six months I made some 2,000 edits in articles (w/o discussions) and I think that 1,800+ of them had been in articles about current events but I have to tell you that I reached the point where I am fed up with that attitude. Since the topic reappears at the AFD discussions peiodically, like a broken record, I also am nearing the point where I'll question myself, if it's to stay or to resign. Please don't misunderstand, this is no ultimatum or whatsoever, it's only my frustration about the question, wether I am wasting my time here, or if the result of the time I am spending is welcomed in general. It's only the just and simple question: is writing about current events welcomed or not? (And maybe more complicated: Even in the German wikipedia? How much it can decide on its own and does that make sense?) It's the question if an article like Battle of Baidoa can be written now or only after 2008 has finished.

I hope I didn't waste (too much of) your time. Have a nice day. --213.155.224.232 20:24, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Looking for guidance

I'm starting to wonder if I may becoming out of step with the rest of wikipedia and would really appreciate your input. The reason I'm asking you instead of other editors is I have been accused by other editors of censorship for making a couple edits, one of which was a deletion of an image you had deleted earlier. It all started after a quick look at the top 100 viewed articles which ended up in a deletion of a double penetration image and removal and shuffle of redundant photos in the breast article. When I first saw the double penetration image, I noticed the style was different from the others so I went through the history logs to see if it was added by a vandal. After going through the logs, I noticed you deleted the image but it was later added without any discussion so I deleted it as well stating "as per jimbo the style is different from the others - Definitely more pornographic than encyclopedic - Please use tact". The image was then added again a few hours later stating not to remove the image without discussion. I then deleted the image and asked to use talk to discuss why your deletion should be rv. The image is added again but this time user Doc Tropics proclaims the wikipedia is not censored. At that point I gave up as the censored word was being thrown around. After the incident I was accused of censorship for an edit to the breast article and haven’t had much support from other editors so I'm second guessing my edits for fear that I may want wikipedia to be too perfect. Now I look up my watch list and see the image below has been added to the article with the double penetration image but no one has rv the image ]. I wait, and still nothing. I have tried communicating with other editors after being called pro-censor but it seems no one really listens after you’ve been labeled a censor. You have done a tremendous thing for mankind and I believe your opinion is sincere so I'm looking for guidance from you on this issue and because you removed the the double pen image as well. Seriously, this isn’t a gripe or whine, just looking for guidance as I'm really not a censor.

Here is the first image you deleted that was rv and is still in the article.

And the new image added today. --I already forgot 04:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I deleted the copyvio image and handed out a couple of blocks for trolling. The other picture, the one in a different style, is a problem, but I consider that a legitimate editorial dispute. But re-inserting a blatant copyvio on the grounds that removing it would be censorship? That's just wrong.--Jimbo Wales 06:22, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Nothing is wrong with using a different style, in fact to keep to using the one same narrow style of pictures could easily be argued as not NPOV. That image isn't the only one in that "style", there are others done exactly the same way. Also you claim it is pornographic, however nothing could hardly be further from the truth as for a reason for it to not be included. Remember this image is on a page which is a list of sex positions, you should expect to see images there of any possible sex position. Which is one of the reasons among many others why wikipedia is not censored. Also if you look at the image, I'd suspect it is created based off a master image which was a photo? Or at least that would be one way I could create similar images. This means it has been made very much so not porngraphic in comparision to the original photo due to it's conversion to a drawing. Mathmo 18:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that {{linkimage}} would be the ideal compromise here. We need to think of what will best serve our readers. Some of them will (based upon past experiences from other encyclopedias) expect to be able to read an informative article on sexual positions without encountering drawings or photos that directly portray penetration. Others may be conditioned by the amount of pornography available on-line to expect that we would be pushing the boundaries and allowing this sort of image to remain. Putting the image in the article but behind a single click helps cater to both desired user experiences. Johntex\ 19:11, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I was the one who said the image look pornographic. In the professional sense there are certain things pornographic directors do to set regular sex acts from the professional ones. For example: looking back at the camera as if looking at the viewer showing pleasure, money shots, etc. is an example of professional pornographic artistic ability. When you watch a pornographic movie you notice these types of things as I noticed it in the image (looking back showing pleasure). Pornography is not a bad thing for certain individuals, but if you are familiar with the style, its obvious when presented to you. I was merely pointing out that the image look pornographic do to my observation. That’s it. I dont remember reading that jimbo thought the image was pornographic.--I already forgot 19:16, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

You are not making sense to me here, for some reason you are saying that looking at the camera and showing pleasure is pornographic? Don't know about you... but for me it is very normal to be showing pleasure during sex! And likewise, when a picture is being taken of me (any sort at all) I'll look at the camera! Is not the norm to be looking away from the camera when a person is taking your photo. (unless you happen to be an extremely shy person etc...) Mathmo 20:22, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Well thanks for the attempt Jimbo. I'll continue to be a wikinomad and walk more carefully through the ever increasing villages and tribes growing within wikipedia. Though the response was confusing, it has also been enlightening. Thanks again for everything you have done.--I already forgot 19:22, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

We have talked about the use of linkimage on the Guidelines page, but that refers to "Photographs or video of sexual acts ". This artwork does not fit that category.

I can appreciate that some may view some images as pornographic. I mean no insult, but a characterization that it reminds a user of pornographic style is irrelevant. The context of the image is everything. (per Miller test) In this encylopedia, the section is a description of multiple penetrations. The image shows precisely that. The image does not meet the miller test of pornography, and should not be censored.

Also, editing images because the participants "show pleasure" in a sexually explicit image, in an article about sexuality is nonsense. The whole purpose of sexuality is pleasure.

You describe being suprised to see a drawing of penetration when looking at the sexual positions article under the sub section titled "multiple penetrations"? Hmmm. We need more images like this, not less. The more people become used to normal, healthy sexuality, the more they will perceive it as no different than someone bowling, or driving a car. It is the lack of exposure to normal behavior that makes people, in the manner describing your reaction, view this kind of thing as "pornography".

Again, my apologies, I did not mean to have been so blunt, as I respect both of your views. We should avoid trying to offend anyone. But, my opinion is that here is yet another attempt to censor something because of your viewpoint about sexuality, not a viewpoint shared by everyone. Regardless of rhetoric, it appears to me to be yet another example of trying to censor undesirable content when our policy is clearly "Wikpedia does not censor". I'm fine with discussions regarding the licensing status of images, or of the editorial decisions necessary to have a high quality article, including what images would improve, or decrease the editorial quality of an article. It seems that in this case, the image illustrates artistically the topic of the article, and the sub-section incredibly well. So well that people with sensitivity to sexually explicit content are bothered by it. If we are going to censor based on sexual content, let's just be honest about it, establish clear policies and guidelines, and firmly adhere to them, and not try to find some rhetoric to censor whenever an image is too honest or frank. If we aren't going to censor, then let's continue our discussion on developing guidelines for content, per Guidelines (or similar) and reach and maintain consensus. Atom 19:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I just want to say that I have owned pornography, know people in the business, and respect it as a valid trade. I deleted the image because jimbo had deleted it earlier and it was re-added without discussion. Not sure if his rv of the removal was intentional vandalism or not so I rv to reflect his change. It was a mistake to add my pov in the edit summary which I apologize but that has nothing to do with the constant addition of an image he has removed and no discussion about re-adding it. I did not plan to use his talk page as a platform for the dispute or to expand on accusations that I'm a censor so I apologize to jimbo for using his talk which is now being used for other reasons than I intended. As for making people accept double penetration as "healthy sexuality so they can perceived it as no different than bowling"? I think each user should make that judgment for themselves and not wikipedia. That is why I asked for guidance.--I already forgot 20:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I was unaware the Mr. Wales had removed the image at any point. I see from comments above that it was for editorial/stylistic reasons. When I re-added it, it was because an anon IP had recently removed almost the entire article, and I reverted that. I know that you have, and continue to make your edits with good faith. IMO I believe that sexuality articles should be frank, honest, and cited and sourced as much as possible. Sexuality is normal and healthy, and no one should be ashamed with expressing that part of themselves. I agree that we should let every individual decide for themselves what range of the very broad sexual spectrum they are comfortable with. None of us should disparge a person because their range of sexuality is fairly narrow compared to another, nor should we disparage or try to limit those with a much broader range. We should offer a broad range of facts and citable views on sexuality, in accordance with our NPOV and non-censorship guidelines, and allow people who desire to participate and view Misplaced Pages (in accordance with our disclamers) to choose for themselves. If we were to try and limit sexual content to a range, it would have to be an arbitrary range. Would we choose to provide content only compatible with the official position of the Catholic church? With those comfortable within Sharia law? With those subscribed by a panel of orthodox jews? The intersection of that set? Maybe the views most commonly agreed upon as "normal" by most Americans? North Americans? Native English speakers? Well, to keep it simple, we have agreed to not censor, but to provide content that is considered to be factual, and citable. That is going to shock, offend, and surprise some people, hence out dislaimers. Atom 20:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I partially agree with you. We do need to present a broad range of options to people. Thus, citing sources from different views is very good.

In the same vein, the linkimage is a good tool to allow people to either see or not see photographs that may offend people.

However, I disagree with you about the idea that making decisions about what range of material we present is somehow an arbitrary decision. Please do not confuse making a judgement call with making an arbitrary decision.

The world is not black-and-white. We continually must make judgement calls when we edit articles. Ex: Is this a reliable source or not? Is this statement important to the ariticle or not? Is this image more shocking than it absolutely needs to be? Every single one of these are judgement calls.

Just because reasonable opinions will differ does not excuse us from making these hard decisions. Neither does it make our decision arbitrary once we have made it.

The answer is not to say we must allow every single image - to do otherwise is POV and constitutes censorship. That is treating the world as black-and-white and amounts to advocating an extreme position. What we must do instead is recognize the shades of grey and to chart a middle path. Johntex\ 20:51, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. "Arbitrary" means "Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference. Not based on necessity, reason, or principle." I agree that there is always the need for editorial discretion and judgement. We've decided to make the tough calls based on discussion and consensus. I also would not advocate allowing every single image, although, in the area of sexuality, as long as the image does not violate the law, erring on the side of more information rather than less would do less harm, even if it squicked more people. In the case of an opinion of fact, the statement needs verification. In the case of an image of "ejaculation", not much verification is needed.

• Is this image important to the article? I agree. Good criteria for judgement.

• Is this image more shocking than it needs to be? Not our call. Present the facts. If we make a shocking statement, factual and cited "An estimated 5 to 6 million Jews, including 3 million Polish Jews were killed by the Germans during WWII" we don't pull it because it is shocking, it is a fact. If we have an image of a man ejaculating, we don't pull it because someone might be shocked by it. Men do ejaculate. I agree that the use of linkimage, under some circumstances might have some value. Debatable is whether an image of every describable sex act needs to be shown in order to accurately document. Pulling an image because someone might be have very sheltered views about sexuality should not happen, though.

Let's keep working together on the guidelines at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Sexology_and_sexuality#Work_in_Progress:_Guidelines_for_images_in_Sexology_and_Sexuality_articles.Atom 19:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Category:Child Wikipedians

Now that the wiki-drama has died down a bit on this (and the nasty e-mails have subsided) I'd like to talk to you about my concerns on how it was handled. Issues like this one get messy because of the tendency to make simplistic responses or to fail to separate out intermingled questions. In this case I see three streams:

1. The speedy deletion of the category itself,
2. The paucity of discussion on the category, and
3. The "Foundation's work" argument.

With regards to the speedy deletion of the category, I know you've come out and supported it (while wearing your "mere mortal" hat) so I understand your view on this decision. But more generally, you've come out strongly against wheel warring and demonstrably one admin (and probably more) had seen this category and failed to delete "on sight." Isn't there some internal contradiction there, and doesn't supporting the deletion give some justification (?) for reversing other admins decision based on being extra-right?

With regards to the discourse itself, do you look over this debate and see the kind of dialog you'd like decision making to be based upon? I recall your ire at a similar debate for Category:Living person where real debate was thin on the ground.

Finally, there's often "coded talk" about people doing the foundation's dirty work to avoid media exposure. (Citations available upon request.) What are your feelings on having your name taken in vain, as it were? My understanding was that Office et alia were there to prevent any confusion with matters like this, and that the "foundation work" was to be very clear when it was being done.

Thanks mate, brenneman 07:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Re IRC: Duo Penotti?

Hi Jimmy, on #wikipedia-nl you asked about a product. Could it be Duo Penotti (nl), a bi-coloured chocolate spread? As an alternative, I'd like to suggest stroopwafels (nl). Cheers! Siebrand 07:57, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Yay, I bet that is it. --Jimbo Wales 11:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's making me famous!!

Take a look at this, read all the threads! thought you might think its funny! At least someones making me famous! RyanPostlethwaite 11:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Wait, we deleted the listing for Rock Slope? My favorite band? AfD really is broken. ;-)--Jimbo Wales 11:39, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Bad quarrel spilling over

Jimbo, A bad quarrel centring on a sockpuppet case is spilling over to Orkut and is threatening the image of certain Misplaced Pages admins and of the community in general. I made a request to Raul on this but he didn't seem to have responded or acted. An Orkut community named Viva Misplaced Pages with over 12000 members which remained dormant until recently has become the pivot of quarrel (and certain other related communities also). The community is moderated by an admin, user:Deepujoseph. He seems to have acted in haste to ban certain members who raised some criticism of the project. His actions have given rise to stringent criticism and he has become the target of much personal attacks on various communities on Orkut. There is enough to supsect that he acted not in entirely responsible manner vis-à-vis some criticism posted on his talk page relating to content he added. , , . In any case, it would be a good idea if some senior admins intervened to diffuse a scandal and save user:Deepujoseph from being a target of personal attacks all over the web. Sameera Bhat 12:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry

I am being accused of sockpuppetry. Llama Man and Metros232 are saying I am a sockpuppeteer and Bowsy is my sockpuppet. This is not true. From their evidence, they should have found out that we live in the same house. They are saying Bowsy is my sockpuppet because his account was created 4 minutes after mine and I do a little then he does. This is because, as we live in the same house, we must take turns. They are sayinghe is my sockpuppet because he was the only delete for cruft. This is because he saw me nominate it. They are mentioning the edit war. Bowsy dropped out of this after contributing once. As you can see, they are using unreliable evidence so can you please end this as we aren't sockpuppets. Henchman 2000 13:24, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Please try other channels first, such as WP:ANI. Jimbo rarely involves himself in disputes like this without you trying other methods first. --Deskana (request backup) 13:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

No degree in Marketing

However...

• Talk 02:49, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

NinaOdell | Talk 13:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Wales

Mr. Wales, you can't claim npov on this matter, unless you do not believe in rules that you made, which would be hypocritical.. Of course, if you wish to be hypocritical, that's your choice.

However, despite the fact that you basically own this encyclopedia, I consider the mission of this encyclopedia superceding even you, and I will not change my opinion due to anyone's position, but facts and consensus.

In the Larry Sanger article, he is also seen as a co-founder, which would also make you a co-founder, IMO.

Due to the sensitive nature of my opinion, I have reached out to try and engage towards the consensus edit on the talk page of that article here and , and a few more times.

If you would like to continue discussing this matter, please feel free to get back to me on my talk page. Just H 16:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

If it is controversial, then i'm sure there will be no problem with the {{disputed}} tag on both articles until both are no longer controversial. As you said on your edit summary to me, NPOV is mandatory, so I ask you to follow it -- nobody can be %100 NPOV about themselves without ceasing to be themselves, and you are no exception. Just H 17:06, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

You can be offended if you want to be, that's your issue, not my intention. I'm here to write an encyclopedia. I apologize for any psychological harm you may have incurred from my opinion, which unfortunately, is a part of being a famous person such as yourself.

I'm curious how other notable people, or for that matter, other users have felt, in situations similiar to yours right now. There doesn't seem to be alot of structure on here, and even then it seems to be ignored. Fixing that would seem to be the key thing from preventing this and balancing the reputations of people on Misplaced Pages with the presentation of all facts, and the best thing you can do as "King" is to set an example and follow them. Just H 17:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Telephone

Thank you for the offer, Mr. Wales. However, I am more able to express my thoughts on a computer than on a telephone, so I would prefer to continue our discussions here. Just H 17:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

WP:AUTO. Please know that I do not have anything personal with you, and if I offended you, I apologize. You weren't really a factor in my opinion, and like I said on the talk page, I have no problem with compromising to get all viewpoints in, all Wikipedians should compromise. I also believe all Wikipedians should agree to follow the rules that we've all agreed upon(or seem to have agreed upon), or nobody will follow them and there will be chaos. You are a wikipedian, I assume, so I included you into that expectation.

However, I did also feel somewhat intimidated since you are pretty much the "King" of Misplaced Pages, and I construed your comments as "agree with me or else". However, I know that probably wasn't your intent, so I tried to assume good faith the best I could and not bring that up in there.

My objective is to make that article, and this entire encyclopedia as good as possible, and that in my opinion includes providing as many opinions and sources as possible and presenting them as neutrally as possible. Just H 20:07, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

If It Helps At All

I've done many things in my life I don't like looking back on either, at least that's my guess in regards to your take on the Sanger issue. That you look back on that time with regret and you want to bury it.

If it helps, you're not alone, Mr. Wales. Just feel proud that even though this website can dredge up old memories that can harm us, in the end it has a noble purpose and it wouldn't have happened without you.

Out there in the articles, it's not about me or you, it's about information. But as they say, the truth can hurt sometimes and I hope we can work it out outside of the articles so we can forego our egos for the good of this project. Please let me know if there's anything I can do to alleviate that hurt without compromising the project.Just H 22:47, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

In regards to Esperanza

Mr. Wales;

As you are undoubtedly aware, Esperanza has recently been deleted and transformed into a simple essay. I was fully behind this decision, though I had supported deletion and protection, as did the nominator, Dev920. We fear that the program will be revived and put back to it's corrupted use. The debate seems neverending; discussion of the first MFD and post-first MFD was amazingly lengthy and heated, and the second MFD and post discussion was the same. It was suggested that discussion be delayed for a month; this, however, has been misinterpreted as though law. I personally see no value in this; undoubtedly the arguments will come back in full force. Many of us are sick of the debate and wish to see a final decision made upon this. Mr. Wales, I hope this is not overly presumptuous of me, but I would request your input on this in order to meaningfully establish a decision. Thank you for your time. DoomsDay349 01:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't want to clog up your talk page too much, so I'll try to be brief. The disagreement in the MfD was not really over whether or not Esperanza should remain active or be closed down - by the end, that decision was clear. The disagreement was over what "closed down" actually means. Some people argued that all its pages should be deleted and salted, and that it should never be discussed again. Others felt that its pages should be tagged historical (so that anyone can access the "primary sources" regarding its history, not just admins) and that people should still be free to openly discuss its good and bad points. In the end, a compromise decision was made. Some projects were spun off as independent pages. Some sub-pages were soft-deleted (blanked and redirected to main page, but with page history intact.) Other sub-pages were hard-deleted.

IMHO, what's needed is a consistent method of dealing with failed proposals, as well as active projects that are closed down. There's currently a discussion about this very matter at:

Misplaced Pages talk:Miscellany for deletion#MfDs of policy/guideline/essay and organisation pages

I'm sure any comments you have on the matter would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Quack 688 05:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The situation with Esperanza, Mr. Wales, is becoming ridiculous. Most users hung out on the MfD for a bit and then got on with their lives when the decision was reached. However, there's a hardcore of users for which Esperanza is not dead but merely dormant, and they are trying to keep that flame alive as long as possible. What it has resulted in is two battlelines, as it were, with me, Doomsday, and Moreschi, on the opposing side and Quack688, Geo.plrd, and Ed on the other side, with Carcharoth pursuing a "historical" policy in between. Additionally, Geo.plrd, why1991, and Zacharycrimsonwolf are trying to get together various ideas to bring Esperanza back on their talkpages. Neither side can back down for fear that the other side will sneak in and get their way. From Quack's rapid reply, it seems obvious that we are all watching each other's talkpages and possibly contributions, and both sides are not afraid of trying to change the terms of the debate to suit themselves. This endless struggle has dragged in all kinds of editors, admins, and now you. I, for one, would like to be free to get on with improving the encyclopedia, but as mentioned before, I can't let this one go lest Esperanza come back yet again. This debate is nothing to do with failed policy ideas, because Esperanza was a unique organisation with a unique goal. While I don't want a binding decision on the matter from you, Mr. Wales, I would appreciate a suggestion to deal with this arms buildup that we have found ourselves in and cannot get out of. Neutralising both sides is the best policy I think (though I wouldn't object if you simply said "Burn it all and never sugegst anything of the kind again" :) ). Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 11:04, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

wikipedia integration

Hi,

nice wiki.

i just have a problem with the interaction of it like, when i type a word in english in the hebrew wiki it will not lead me to the translation in the english wiki. it would me very cool if people will not need to change language just to get a resault in theyre language when tey are using other languages.

Best Regards, Moran

Peace —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.0.188.171 (talk) 12:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC).

Thanks!

Misplaced Pages in PDF available?

I have this new idea, to have a link on every page and when you go there you'll see the article as PDF. What do you say Jimbo? Do you support my idea? Thanks, --HIZKIAH (User • Talk) 14:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

You didn't ask me! But I think because of the nature of this project generating PDF without any general review (for vandalism, POV pushings, and false information) is not correct. From technical aspect generating new PDF for every single edits on articles is nothing more than imagination (at least for now). This is what I think about it and might be incorrect. Hessam 15:05, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, someone should face better vandalism, POV pushing...I agree that something has to be done quickly before competition will emerge and make something better than Misplaced Pages. I think it's a great idea, Jimbo what do you say? --HIZKIAH (User • Talk) 18:34, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Good Morning

I fixed a couple of things, but some little arguments annoy me, and I won't touch them. Is there anything else making you cranky today, or is that the end of it? If it we're me, I would avert my eyes and hope for the best (see any Misplaced Pages article related to Buddhism, for example). Again, good morning. NinaOdell | Talk 15:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I put my answer on the article's talk page

My opinion is eschew(spelling?) "founder" altogether and just put "internet enterpreneur" in the lead and then we can have a section about Bomis and Misplaced Pages and so on and put both views in those sections where applicable. I think that's pretty fair, how about you? Just H 15:36, 12 January 2007 (UTC)