Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 03:12, 26 January 2007

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IRC admin channel

This discussion has become very lengthy and has been moved to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IRC admin channel

Numerous incidents involving gross incivility on the IRC channel have been brought to the Arbitration Committee's attention. We consider such behavior absolutely unacceptable; to ensure that it does not continue, we have worked with the leadership of the IRC channels to appoint additional channel ops, with a specific mandate to keep Wikimedia IRC channels polite and courteous. Behavior on the IRC channel may be taken into consideration with respect to arbitration cases if it results in disruption on Misplaced Pages. Fred Bauder for the Arbitration Committee 01:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Please direct your comments to the abovementioned subpage (no, SlimVirgin, I've learned nothing!). This thread took half of the space in this board, so I moved it there. Thx. El_C 01:40, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Not a bad idea except you did not preserve the edit history in your split. The proper way to do it, in my view, was a delete/partial restore/move/restore-the-rest action, rather than just a copy/paste move. If you're not sure how to do that, you might try asking Kylu how on IRC, she's an expert at it and often available that way to help people out, and I expect she would be happy to walk you through it step by step in real time, as she's quite good at it. I'd favour reverting this change of yours, and trying again. But this is a high traffic page so it might be tricky to do it cleanly. Still, having no edit history whatever over there is not very useful, in my view.. did you ask around before you did it? ++Lar: t/c 03:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I can do it, but it could take AN being down for upwards of ten to fifteen minutes to sort through all the posts. Teke 03:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Note: maybe not, lemme check the contribution history. I'll report back in the amount of time it would take me to click. Teke 03:21, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

It can do more than that, I think. I'm sure I read somewhere that the whole database locked up with strain once when George W. Bush was deleted to do something similar. --Deskana (request backup) 03:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Not so here, as the history is moved in the archive. GW's page's history exsists without archiving. Teke 03:21, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah, wonderful! My mistake. --Deskana (request backup) 03:23, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Nooo, I was wrong. It isn't. It should be though...Seriously, it would cause some problems since the page goes back over 2 years. Teke 03:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Reflecting, based on that the subpage should be fine, since the archive histories aren't moved. Teke 03:27, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

It's no problem. You can just match the date on a timestamp of any signature to easily find the edit on the revision history of either page. El_C 05:05, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

It would be nice to be able to do that programmatically even. :-) --Kim Bruning 09:16, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

If you just pop a link at the top of the subpage, referring to the point in the history of this page at which the subpage was split off, editors interested in the original discussion can see it in all its glory by clicking on the link. A link to the history at the same point might also be useful. --Tony Sidaway 11:53, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

User:Cplot

Anyone think it's time to call up his IP or file a WP:ABUSE report? I'm not sure how to go about this, and I don't know his IP range. But this is getting entirely out of hand. Patstuart 23:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

There is already an investigation going against his IP there... a second... the one under the 68.30.65.203 heading. -- ReyBrujo 23:33, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

He has recently used:

• 24.148.7.123
• 64.241.37.140
• 66.73.80.206
• 66.149.74.142
• 67.167.7.81
• 67.167.7.187
• 68.30.156.41
• 75.22.229.188
• 75.57.102.247

I suggest we start gathering a definitive collection, to be followed with ISP complaints and range blocking. Raul654 23:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Add:

• 68.251.35.198

To that list. --Wildnox(talk) 00:11, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I have seen a cplot ip blocked for a month. Since we blocked the ips for a week and did not work, I suggest extending to one month, until the investigation is finished. -- ReyBrujo 00:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

My theory about Cplot, although probably flawed, is that Cplot is probably multiple people using different IPs. And yes, a WP:ABUSE report will probably help. --SunStar Net 01:10, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course, you can't have a single person with so varied internet accounts. -- ReyBrujo 01:16, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that Sunstar means that it is being used as a Role account, possibly with access gained by the posting of the name and password to something like a forum or BBS, to be manipulated by multiple users to game the system. Teke 01:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, gotcha. I suggest keeping a bot deleting posts that are over 60kb automatically :-) -- ReyBrujo 01:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

• They'd have to be really dedicated to carry out this much of an attack on Misplaced Pages. BTW, I found a "parody" of Misplaced Pages, which is also called Misplaced Pages (confusingly enough), maybe Cplot can take his stuff there?? --SunStar Net 01:25, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Time to knock on SBC's door and tell them to tell this guy to put a sock in it. —Pilotguy (ptt) 01:44, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

This may be a role account, per Teke's suggestion above. I'm sure some forum will probably have a thread somewhere on this. --SunStar Net 01:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I just searched google for the terms "government" and "cplot" and came up with nothing but many questionable sites syndicating wiki content (including user talk) in order to increase their page rank. I also came across a Harvard law site with a discussion involving a user called "thewaythingswork" which seemed to digress onto Cplot. Either there's nothing out there, or I need to refine my search terms. Could a proxy service be responsible for the numerous IP's? Crimsone 01:55, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Probably some open proxy, if that's what Cplot's using... --SunStar Net 01:57, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Is that possible? The IPs resolve to major commercial ISPs. Chick Bowen 02:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but to say specifically how might offer ideas if it's not the case. It's not a particularly common thing to see from average internet users, but it is possible.For example, my IP is registered to PlusNet (and yes, it's static), but I could still be running a proxy on a second machine for others to connect through. Crimsone 02:22, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I always figured it was a bunch of guys from the same area working together, given the various Chicago ISPs listed in the suspected sock list. I don't really have any experience with this kind of thing, though. WarpstarRider 03:34, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

From a nontechnical angle my hunch is it's one person. A group of people would manifest a variety of writing styles. Yes, this means prolific and dedicated effort from one individual, but some irrational people are prolific and dedicated. This person ignored my repeated offers at Village Pump to accept evidence via e-mail and conduct an independent investigation. So while the emperor has no clothes, it's also human nature for the emperor to insist he's wearing fine duds while the crowd giggles. Durova 04:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

At one point, I began thinking they were common people who had been cheated by Cplot to post those comments there. However, noticing how the sockpuppets try to insert the text in as many sections as possible reflects careful planning. Suppose Misplaced Pages asked for confirmation whenever it detects more than XXkb of text is being inserted at the same time (a copyvio warning, in example), wouldn't that stop him from doing this automatically and also help catch some copyvio infringements, especially when User:Wherebot is down? -- ReyBrujo 04:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

So the question, is, now, would anybody like to call up SBC and give them the nastygram? (that's me honesetly asking for volunteers). We will need some checkuser information from Mackensen that we can email to SBC. Patstuart 03:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I blocked an IP last night who was either Cplot or a Cplot wannabe which resolved to the University of Virginia computer lab. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm quite sure there are Cplot imitators out there. Cplot himself uses a few different ISPs. I'm willing to discuss via e-mail, but not here. --Aude (talk) 19:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe the IPs that originate from Chicago should be the ones that are targeted in an abuse report? :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 19:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Another IP used today by Cplot: 24.14.241.94 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log).--Wildnox(talk) 20:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Several more used today:

• 68.29.19.14
• 70.8.72.109
• 75.22.229.188
• 24.148.87.100
• 75.3.20.158
• 24.148.64.151

Range blocked for 6 months. Raul654 18:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Cplot unleashed a whole new group of socks today. Apparently the range blocks didn't work, or he's using a proxy. PTO 03:33, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

WikiPrograms that are not useful

Well, it appears to be the month for reforming or deprecating projects that have gotten out of hand (doesn't WP:CREEP call for a regular pruning of process?) I invite people to take a look at Misplaced Pages:Editor review and Misplaced Pages:Admin coaching. Both purport to be pages that help new users towards overall constructive behavior, and eventually adminship. However, both have gotten out of hand. They now steer people towards socially acceptable behavior as judged by the alleged RFA crowd. Thus, they reenforce editcountitis, as well as all sorts of arbitrary criteria like "an admin candidate must put X amount of work in AFD/RC patrol/AIV/whatever". This is certainly not good for the encyclopedia. Comments please on how to deal with this. >Radiant< 12:14, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I am inclined to suggest we MFD them (see my comments on Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_adminship#Editor_review_.28and_admin_school.29.2C_and_RFA and Wikipedia_talk:Editor_review, but Editor review used to be a useful aid to newer editors before being subverted (perverted?) into its current use as a tool to shape user's edit counts so they perfectly fit the RFA hole, so I am reluctant to see it just cast asunder. Lose the school, redefine the aims of Editor Review. Proto::► 12:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Personally (having spent a good time doing editor reviews), I agree with Proto that ER used to be useful. While in the beginning most asked for counsel about how they handled a particular situation, what they could do to complement their current self, and why determined areas were useful. Nowadays, most ask advice about how to become admins. I am not sure, but "I think" it is because now the RFA page advertises it. While many would have posted their RFA, now they read the line that says If you are unsure about nominating yourself for adminship, you may wish to try an editor review first. and ask the same in the editor review. Maybe, and it is a big maybe, if we change that line to If you are unsure about nominating yourself for adminship, you may wish to try to get advice at Admin coaching then ER would go back to what it used to be. -- ReyBrujo 12:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Admin school has serious issues, and I'm not sure they can be "fixed" - which would render ReyBrujo's well reasoned suggestion ineffective. An Mfd may be the solution; whether an Esperanza solution is adopted or not, the attention and input would be beneficial. I concur with Proto that Editor review has the potential to be a useful tool, but I'd like to hear ideas on how to redefine it effectively. KillerChihuahua 12:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

We can't say "Don't ask about becoming an administrator", can we? We can't put a minimum threshold (5,000 edits or over), can we? We can't remove editor reviews that ask whether the subject would pass a RFA at this time, can we? Well, what we can is to turn the "unfriendly" switch to the maximum, don't praise users but criticize them, so hard that they will think twice before asking for another editor review or RFA. "I want to be an administrator, what do you think?" "With only 7 Misplaced Pages namespace edits? Sure, post your application on WP:BJAODN." But then, we would be biting them. No, as of right now, I don't have any idea about how to improve it. -- ReyBrujo 12:58, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

As a relative newcomer, I've just signed up for editor review because I'd like to be a better editor. I've made a specific request for advice in my submission. If people use it to fit RfA better, why not? Then again, if they use it to improve themselves, why not? What's the big deal. No need to delete it. The biggest problem I see with it is lack of participation from the experienced users, actually reviewing us. It takes a certain amount of guts to put oneself in the stocks... it's a bit disconcerting when few people can be bothered to throw tomatoes. --Dweller 13:21, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

• The point is that the intent of the page is good (indeed, encouraging people to be better editors is obviously a good thing) but what the page actually does is not good (in that it actually encourages people to mold themselves to arbitrary standards that are allegedly but not really required to pass RFA). In that, it is gaming the system: it's going by the letter of the (perceived) rules rather than the spirit. >Radiant< 13:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

My own opinion of admin school is that it's basically telling people what to say at RFA. Nothing wrong with that if the person in question really should be an admin, but I think it's too easy to abuse to push unsuitable people through RFA and to trick, so to speak, the RFA voters. I would certainly vote delete at MFD. Editor review I think is O.K, if only as a way of preventing RFAs that are never going to pass in a million years. And it is useful, on occasion. Moreschi 13:34, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Per Moreschi, I'd keep ER if only to avoid giving Bureaucrats even more work. yandman 13:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I have seen a fair few editor reviews that go like "I'm about to run at RFA tomorrow!!! Any last-minute tips????" - followed by "You're a complete newbie. You haven't got a hope in hell at RFA, and you need to seriously rethink your attitude towards adminship". That sort of thing is useful, I think, to avoid clueless newbie RFAs. But admin coaching sucks. Shall I wheel out my fellow deletionist cabalists to nom the admin coaching MFD, or does someone else want to have a turn? Moreschi 13:44, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Per baby/bathwater issues, I've not experienced admin coaching, but the arguments against editor review don't, erm, hold water. --Dweller 14:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

One possibility is that the concept of improving as an editor (and possibly being more suited to being an admin) is becoming too focused on editor review and the concept of an admin school. There are many different ways of improving as a Misplaced Pages editor. Recently I tried to list some of the more interactive methods at Misplaced Pages:Coaching. Maybe that would be a good link to have in the "If you are unsure about nominating yourself for adminship, you may wish to try ... first." bit? i.e "If you are unsure about nominating yourself for adminship, you may wish to try one of the options at Misplaced Pages:Coaching first." Though I've always been more in favour of the concept of learning by yourself, and improving by experience. Indeed, I was recently complimented on this quote:

"Enculturation really just needs people to talk more and demonstrate how they do things (rather than just doing them). Takes certain types of people to be role models. Actually following someone's edits, or meeting in person and watching how they do things, can be very instructive." (Carcharoth)

My point is that there are many ways to learn. If we work to diversify the options, that might help any one area degrading and becoming unacceptable.

Right, now I'm off to post this in the other two threads on this matter. Please focus this thread on specific things, um to do with the Administrators noticeboard? Why the hell is this thread on this noticeboard anyway? <sigh> Gathering admin views on what to do with admin coaching and editor review? Fair enough, but this thread really needs to be focused and directed towards the places where the discussion should really be happening (and that is also an apology for lengthening the thread). Probably best to close this thread and direct discussion to here and here. And if there is an umbrella MfD nomination, can all the pages be listed this time, and the post-closing actions be planned a little bit beforehand? Carcharoth 14:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

If it were up to me, it would say, "If you are unsure about nominating yourself for adminship, don't." -- Merope 15:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

My complaint about ER is that it seems to be a den of back scratching. Despite not being a very active project, I am constantly seeing talkpage notes like, 'Man, thanks for the props on my ER; I'll be sure to reciprocate'. It doesn't inspire confidence in the process. Anchoress 00:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Section break 1: crunch the numbers

Yes, I worry about the quality of some WP:RFA nominations that succeed. Part of what it takes to be an administrator just can't be taught: it's about temperament and judgement. I waited until I had 9000 edits, three featured pages, and shared authorship of a guideline before I thought I was ready. Yet there just aren't enough people to keep this site running if we set the bar that high. WP:ER and admin school have their flaws. Yet I've been telling myself lately I ought to spend more time over there because we have to make a priority of ensuring that the growth of the administrative pool keeps pace with the growth of the project. If this is accurate we've got over 3 million registered accounts Misplaced Pages.en and 1090 administrators total (including inactive ones). There are systemic issues and long term trends at work here and we're kidding ourselves if we don't address them. Durova 15:41, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages.en has a sysop to user ratio of 1:2774, which is the third lowest ratio among all Misplaced Pages languages.
• That ratio has fallen steadily at this project for two years.

Durova 15:49, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

What about the active admins to active user ratio? HighInBC 15:53, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Heh, I'm the writer - most of you guys are the techies. It amazes me that you don't already have bots to track this and that I'm the one raising the issue. Durova 15:58, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

• Possibly if there's a feeling we need more admin's, people would like to run their eye down the list at Misplaced Pages:List of Wikipedians by number of edits and discuss nomination with anyone who jumps out as a likely candidate. Maybe we could all nominate one candidate each? Steve block Talk 17:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Though the discussions will likely move elsewhere, I'd like to add a couple of things about Misplaced Pages:Admin coaching (I am not much familiar with Editor Review). Admin Coaching clearly states, and has always stated, that it is not for the purpose of teaching someone how to do well in an RfA, or to teach someone what is needed to pass an RfA. It is about learning the skills that administrators use, so that when/if an editor does become an administrator, they are well prepared to use their new tools. How many of us felt nervous to delete our first page of nonsense, block our first vandalizing user, or protect our first page undergoing an edit war? Admin coaching helps editors understand the tools of administrators, and to learn their usage. Those editors undergoing admin coaching are able to practice deciding if something is appropriate to be deleted under the CSD, to learn when to and when not to protect a page, and to become confident and deciding what is vandalism and what is not. These skills mean that if an editor goes through an RfA and is successful, they will be well-versed in the tools they have acquired, and will be able to benefit the encyclopedia by using them in the best fashion possible. -- Natalya 17:03, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I for one would like real action and not cheap talk. The way to get ready for admin, and an effective admin, is to do RC or CVU and you will know how to deal with the vandals and dubious material. And to get involved in image tagging. Talking about it doesn't prove anything, my RfA participation works upon "runs on the board", not because somebody did a theory "Q&A answer" - I think that for anybody who even played sport or music at an amateur or school level, their coach or teacher would have said that what you gain in 15 minutes of actual playing time on the field or stage, can't be substituted for lots of practice. Personally, as soon as Essjay tweaked my access, I slaughtered about 50 pieces of rubbish in the first two or three hours . A lot of people don't have any proven skill in the mopwork and pass simply by giving the "politically correct" answers and then don't use them much anyway. In any case, if they get too smooth sounding without actually having done anything, I am likely to ignore their RfA and perhaps even oppose it. I would have to say that no practical skill improvement is gained from AC from observing the coaches, only PC, PR and toilet training. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 00:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Blnguyen, part of the coach's responsibility is to say, "go do this." It's not just about preaching to a user. Titoxd 00:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Oooh er, Natalya, I'm not sure. The damn thing even has a disclaimer: "Admin Coaching does not guarantee that you will pass the RfA. Ultimately, this is your responsibility, not the responsibility of your coach. So if you come here looking for a personal coach in order to pass RFA, you're at the wrong place." Either this needs serious rewording or it does make it sound as though the whole point is to get you through RFA, as does language like "Admin Coaching is a program for people who would like the special attention that only one-on-one coaching can provide" - and the purpose of the coaching is to get you through RFA, eh? I remember looking at User:Riana dzasta/Admin coaching - I mean, at one point, semi-ironically, Glen says "Depends if you want the "RfA" answer, or my real thoughts". Sorry, but even as a joke, your RFA thoughts should be your real thoughts! My fingers are itching over the MFD button, cause at RFA I don't want a product, I want the real deal. Moreschi 17:25, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Part of the problem with fishing through the high edit count list is that a lot of the people who are on it don't wan't adminship or have failed nominations - or haven't tried because they know nomination wouldn't succeed. It's the people who registered last July and who raised a couple of pages to GA and are becoming active in one of the WikiProjects that we should look at, but mostly they aren't on our radar yet. So a couple of people have set up places where they can go. I applaud that. We need to be there too and honestly tell some of them they're good editors but maybe not cut out for this and foster the ones who seem to have the right stuff. If these efforts are undermanned - and a lot of things are undermanned because sysops are scarce - then of course they don't work so well. Now I'll put my money where my mouth is (or where my typing fingers are) and go follow my own advice. I welcome others to join me. Durova 17:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that there should be no difference; hearing "Depends if you want the "RfA" answer, or my real thoughts" makes me want to cringe. However, in my opinion there is still much potential, as long as the purpose of it is made clear to all participating. Is it bad to prepare people who may become administrators for the tasks they will have to perform? It doesn't seem so. -- Natalya 00:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

RFA is so broken that experienced editors are scared to go near it until they're 100% sure they'll pass. This, in effect, delays potential admins for several months. I cite Newyorkbrad's current RfA as a primary example, and I can think of one or two other people who are as well. 150.101.239.146 23:42, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

You mean the Newyorkbrad RfA that is passing with 99% support? —Centrx→talk • 23:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I think his point was that Nyb should have been nominated months ago. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 23:49, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

That is true though, RfA is a very scary procedure to go through, because, if you fail, you are probably going to have to wait about 3 months before trying again. RfA is 'broken' only because there are too many people. RfA is more effective when the 'voters' actually know what the person they are 'voting' on's character is from personal experience, rather then using edit count and other arbitrary factors to try and guess. Prodego 01:04, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I sometimes wonder if it would offer some real insight if it were possible to run a small experiment. Simply pick a pre-rfa candidate about to "run the gauntlet", (secretly, so as not to affect the outcome) collect opinions from existing admins on whether or not the candidate should pass if RfA were running perfectly and as it should ideally be (or perhaps based on WP:SYSOP alone rather than any arbitary criteria), and then compare that with the actual result. Maybe even repeat it a few times. The results may then be evidence either of a problem, or of the lack of a problem. I'm not saying that it could or should be done. I have no opinion there. It's just an idea I've thought on a few times. Crimsone 01:14, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I think admin coaching, etc. shouldn't be about the RFA but about all that comes afterward, as in what the tools are for and what sort of stresses go with them and whether the kind of participation someone wants to do would really be helped by that - and getting to know the site well enough that they'll use the tools correctly. If they've learned Misplaced Pages well enough that they're ready for adminship and they've got the right temperament for this, then RFA shouldn't be a problem. It's not the admissions board at Harvard. Durova 01:14, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. They will pass RfA when they are ready, and now they'll be ready for what comes afterward. -- Natalya 12:59, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

• See, I have a problem with the whole concept of admin coaching. Mentoring, yes, but being an admin is not something one should aspire to and work towards, it's something that should be suggested by others based on how they see you working within the project. Self-noms based on technical needs (template Wikignomes and so on) are fine, but "make me a sysop, I'll block vandals and delete everything emanating from the firehose of crap" is a seriously bad rationale. Anyone who actively sets out to be an admin may not be here to build a great encyclopaedia. Plus they are stupid: the pay sucks and you get abuse from all quarters. Guy (Help!) 11:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather turn admin coaching into something positive then. Somewhere along the line each of us sysops learned what adminship is about and decided that was where we want to be, but the site isn't particularly user-friendly for editors who are interested in exploring that option. Rather than proceeding from a presumption that an editor ought to get sysopped and showing them how to jump through certain hoops, let's make it a place where they can genuinely learn what we do and see whether this is the right fit for their styles. Plenty of good editors are better off writing articles. Durova 21:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, suggestions are always welcome... Titoxd 00:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Ouch! Durova, that hurts! Surely the first priority of all of us, non-admins and admins alike, should be just that - writing articles? WP:ENC and WP:5P, after all. Moreschi 21:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that doesn't mean that everyone is here to do that. Titoxd 00:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Bishzilla have way better PC, PR and toilet training than that Newyorkbrad, grrr! Admin school diploma! Personal coach! Dispute resolution skills! Excellent edit summary usage. Not ripping off users' heads (that was newbie mistake!). Have not eaten user since Bastique! Will apologize posthumously to Bastique if required, will not destroy Tokyo! Give tools! Nom Zilla for adminship now or she show you unilateral! Bishzilla | grrrr! 06:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

Eeeeeps! Here: User:Bishzilla/Nomination. Remember to fill out the questions and accept the nomination before posting! —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 00:11, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• You know what? I am a new user and I agree that both those stupid programs should be deleted post-haste!! Bookishreader45 04:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Globalwarming awareness2007/SEO world championship -- expect a spam onslaught.

FYI -- Globalwarming awareness2007 is the name of a new spam article -- and the name of a SEO (Search engine optimization) contest. In a nutshell, the goal is to "optimize" (i.e., spam) enough links around the web as to make your site show up ahead of everyone else's. See this discussion: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Spam#SEO world championship and check out our new article above. (And consider deleting it after you look at it). --A. B. 03:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow -- that was fast -- thanks for the deletion. For the curious, I had already saved a copy to a user subpage at User:A. B./Sandbox10. When we get the chance, folks at WT:WPSPAM will start checking the links to see if we have any on article pages. And don't worry -- all links on non-article pages are coded by MediaWiki as "nofollow", so no spammer gets a page ranking boost from those links when they're on a user page.--A. B. 03:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The contest started January 15th, 2007 and will end in May 1st, 2007 so this will be a long drawn-out P.I.A assault. I'd expect all language versions will be aflicted. Keyphrase is "globalwarming awareness2007" so be aware of references or articles relating to this. --Hu12 03:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Looks like the links to the site should be spam blacklisted. User:Zoe|(talk) 04:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• The article should be deleted and salted to prevent it being used, and links posted in conjuntion to it should be meta blacklisted as appropriate. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 06:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• I've salted the article. Sandstein 07:18, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

You mean protected. There's no need to bastardise English. Dan100 (Talk) 12:14, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Salting the earth :> -Obli (Talk) 13:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

As every domain on the list was created on Jan 15 or after for this contest, we won't lose anything if we blacklist every single one and they won't be tempted to abuse wikipedia to play their sick little spammer games. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 07:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• This would probably help stem it, but there will still be other domains they will come up with, I am sure, so continued vigilance should of course be advised :) Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 08:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• I just thought I would pop by an place a slightly different perspective on this. I am someone who works with SEO, but have never spammed Misplaced Pages, in fact the main reason I created this account in the past was to remove spam from entries I saw.

There are legitimate ways to SEO websites without spamming. The rules of the contest very clearly stipulate that any "blackhat" methods are forbidden. Any site entering the contest even has to list full contact details on the site. The websites that might win the contest most likely will be high quality sites that have gained links legitimately by creative techniques that encourage other people to link to you, such as maybe competitions of their own, or providing excellent content worth linking to. The change made will have a dramatic effect on search results unless Google decide to ignore NoFollow for this domain and there are other ways to control this. AndrzejBroda

• Note that per Jimbo's request to Brion, rel=nofollow is now set for links in all Misplaced Pages mainspace articles. Spamming Misplaced Pages will therefore be utterly futile (not that I expect that to stop them). Guy (Help!) 12:31, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

"Utterly futile" whilst half a dozen prominent mirrors run our links without nofollow? I think not....--BozMo talk 15:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• Is Jimbo's request archived somewhere? If yes, could somebody please post a pointer to it? Thanks in advance (and sorry if I might have overlooked it). --Ligulem 12:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• Found it: WikiEN-l Nofollow back on URL links on en.wikipedia.org articles for now posted by Brion on Sat Jan 20 09:30:59 UTC 2007. --Ligulem 16:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Also if he gave any reasons? and Misplaced Pages:Nofollow were both quite strong votes against this although there was a smaller vote since which was split.--BozMo talk 15:44, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

You can check this feature out for yourself by having your browser display the source code (typically a menu bar command such as "View source code", "Source", or "Page source"); here's an example from the Bacteria article:

• "<a href="http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/70/7/4230?view=long&pmid=15240306" class="external text" title="http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/70/7/4230?view=long&pmid=15240306" rel="nofollow">Geomicrobiology of high-level nuclear waste-contaminated vadose sediments at the hanford site, Washington state</a>"

The MediaWiki software does this automatically when converting wiki-code to html to send to browsers.--A. B. 16:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The announcement is on the mailing list, but can't see any comment from Jimbo at this time. Once word gets out this should reduce the sneaky linkspam, like we recently saw on stub templates, HOWEVER, linkspamming Misplaced Pages will still be attractive for two reasons: 1) direct sales - like at the bottom of the vehicle insurance article the section called Cheap insurance quotes, and 2) the nofollow tag is not used by all search engines, and most Misplaced Pages mirrors (of which there are many) will strip the tag anyway. It's probably a step forward but not a silver bullet. -- zzuuzz 16:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a step backwards... If every website out there starts to use "nofollow" then google will stop paying attention to it. This could backfire in the long run guys. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 18:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Agree totally. Mistake which will bite us. I will try to write it up somewhere tonight.--BozMo talk 20:14, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Done: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam#NostraBozMos_predicts anyone taking bets? ;) --BozMo talk 21:28, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Google has asked us in the past to nofollow user submitted links. None of the search engines take it as gospel (which is yet another reason why nofollow isn't a replacement for the SBL), they simply use it as another factor in their analysis. In the future we'll be able to do better: Someday we plan on having some systems for content approval (not-vandalized flag, stable versions, etc.. there are many proposals)... such systems will ultimately allow us to have the community collectively approve links which are good. Until then we should be good netizens and tag our user submitted links as such. --Gmaxwell 22:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I have seen Matt Cutts (he is notable again now) suggest there should be a way to have some untrusted links nofollow, but not all. One thing I think is overlooked is that followable links are one of the factors in determining duplicate content and the original source for information. By adding nofollow, it might be looked on that you are not citing your sources correctly in an ethical manner. Last time I checked, Yahoo still followed and indexed nofollow pages, MSN and Google do not AndrzejBroda 15:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• Don't forget to watchlist obviouis targets like SEO contest. Guy (Help!) 23:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• Finally! This was a good decision. --roy<sac> .oOo. 21:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
• Hmph. We'll see. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 18:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

For your entertainment

• http://www.seorefugee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4655
• http://www.wickedfire.com/industry-news/7373-wikipedia-external-links-now-nofollow.html

Evil laugh. Guy (Help!) 14:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Looks like the SEO gang doesn't like time out in the corner. Pity. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 17:11, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Quick glance of the links associated with posters in the threads Guy posted (not asserting non-notability), just interesting.

cre8asiteforums.com
7search.com
pobox.com
elogodesign.com
endlesspoetry.com
tubgirl.com
redboxcodes.com
--Hu12 18:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

• And working backwards, it looks like one of the posters in one of the above forums is Thekohser (talk · contribs), now known as MyWikiBiz (talk · contribs). He's the one bragging about how Misplaced Pages is irrelevant now that he's found a NEW way to spam for his clients. Sounds like sour grapes to me. --Calton | Talk 05:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• Sounds like he's found a new wiki directory that allows for ownership and protection of commercially-promoted articles, all while giving contributors the unlimited opportunity to earn Google AdSense and Amazon Associates revenues while they build out the directory's content. Would you say it's "spam" when a company lists itself in the Yellow Pages? That's the gist of your (weak) argument here. His company sounds like a much better financial deal than what Wikia offers its "volunteers". If that's sour grapes, Calton, I want me some. --JossBuckle Swami 04:15, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• And it's regugitated advertising buzzspeak like that which instantly trips my BS detector -- that, and things like spamming user talk pages trying to drum up business for your site, and also your edits to User:MyWikiBiz's user page. Back again under a new name, eh? Pimping your site on that forum above wasn't enough, you had to come here, too? --Calton | Talk 04:30, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• Now, now. Assume good faith. I do not have ANY ownership interest in that company. You folks could learn a lot from the Wikia.com model -- when people are annoying you, find them a new home that welcomes their annoying little traits, and send them there. --JossBuckle Swami 04:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• Assume good faith in the absence of evidence to the contrary. So far, a metric buttload of evidence to the contrary, JossBuckle Swami/MyWikiBiz/TheKohser/whatever-you're-calling-yourself-this-month. --Calton | Talk 04:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• Metric buttload! That's a good one. Calton, don't you see? It's so easy to keep contributing to Misplaced Pages when there are so many hypocrites offering themselves up for correction. You, like so many others, haven't even READ what Jimmy Wales did to MyWikiBiz, have you? Would it be so difficult to learn the whole story? You know, the one where MWB created a company based on the tenets of the Reward Board, then acted in the bright light of full disclosure, formed a mutual agreement with Jimmy Wales, then the community literally changed the rules by creating a "conflict of interest" policy out of thin air, which Jimmy then got behind and dismissed MyWikiBiz, then defaced MWB's user page, thus running off their business, all while promoting a donation-supported environment that serves as a link-farm for his for-profit Wikia.com? Get a clue. (Don't make me unplug my modem and come up with another anagram user name again.) --JossBuckle Swami 05:02, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• It's so easy to keep contributing to Misplaced Pages when there are so many hypocrites offering themselves up for correction. A metaphor involving ebony-colored cookware is coming to mind, however elaborately you spin your history here. One also wonders why if your site is so damned wonderful and profitable and just so much better than Misplaced Pages, you still feel the need to come over to Misplaced Pages to pimp it. The door? Over there, and be careful not to let the doorknob hit you on the ass on the way out. --Calton | Talk 07:36, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• Something about not throwing stones when you live in glass houses comes to mind. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 19:12, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Is this appropriate for a user page?

This user believes that liberals are worse than Nazis.

I don't want to bring it up to said user and an admin sent me here for community advice. To see the full spectrum, check out my userpage. Jasper23 00:24, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Check out What can I not have on my user page. It probably covers most of what you have. Tyrenius 00:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

That is completely inappropriate for a userpage (or anywhere for that matter).--Azer Red Si? 00:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

As the admin who sent Jasper here, my thoughts are the same as Tyrenius'. I also wanted to emphasize that the boxes on Jasper's page are not Jasper's boxes, but rather boxes he has copied from the as yet unnamed user's page simply for illustration (at least I believe that's what happened). · j e r s y k o talk · 00:54, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I think having every one of those userboxes on a userpage is extremely bad judgement, this one particularly. VegaDark 00:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

A different question: Bottom line is this. Wikipedians are given userspace to assist the project and to help them work with other users. Yes, we don't have too many rules - and Wikipedians have latitude, but if something isn't going to help the project or user relations then any good wikipedian should stay clear of it. This is obviously going to be inflammatory and at very least discussing it will be a distraction from important things. Thus, Jasper23, if you are here to serve this project, you will want to remove it, and anything similar, regardless of what the letter of policy might say. A good wikipedian will not want to take the chance of distracting us from real encyclopedic work. So the question is not 'is this allowed?', it is 'are you a good wikipedian'? --Doc 01:01, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The unnamed user is AmeriCan (talk · contribs) (God knows why you're all being coy about it). I have removed that particular box from his page. The rest should probably be dumped in the bit bucket, too, but that was so obviously bad I nuked it immediately. --Calton | Talk 01:04, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, just to clarify in case anyone missed this earlier, these are not Jasper's userboxes, they are copied from another user page and he is asking for discussion. I found the original source's userpage with about 2 minutes of digging through and cross-referencing the images used in the boxes. The userpage in question also has a rather soapbox-y rant against Bill Maher and claims him to be in cahoots with Osama Bin Laden. It's rather intriguing, actually. (Edit conflict: Calton has unveiled above.) —bbatsell ¿? 01:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Looks like he's Talk Page spamming other conservatives (hmm, more evidence about why political userboxes are a Bad Idea, as they enable this behavior) to rally around some Categories for discussion issue, to fight off those nasty liberals. Lovely. --Calton | Talk 01:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I've nominated the page for deletion. Somehow I doubt that this user created it in good faith.--Azer Red Si? 01:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry everyone. I should have been more clear about where those boxes came from. I guess the "I stole these" on my page wasn't that clear. Reading back through my post I realize I should have stated the issue more clearly and identified the userbox owner. Well, thanks for quick treatment. Jasper23 01:24, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Looks like a violation of WP:CANVAS is going on with this user. HighInBC 01:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Concur with the WP:CANVAS and image deletion. The goal at Misplaced Pages is to describe political controversies rather than take part in them. Durova 14:52, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

FYI, all the userboxes, including the nazi one, are back. Although he did leave out the Bill Maher rant. VegaDark 20:27, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I deleted to page again as a WP:CSD#G4 as the AfD clearly came to a consensus that those userboxes were unacceptable. HighInBC 20:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Denying vandals recognition

I'm think it might help to apply WP:DENY to Cplot. At this point he's just trying to get as much attention as possible and reveling in every little bit he gets. If we stop making a big deal out of anything Cplot-related, but just revert, block, and ignore, hopefully the problem will go away. I can't really think of any reason these Cplot socks need to be categorized; they're all blocked indef, so there's no need to continue watching any of them. --Cyde Weys 01:33, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

This is really a question for the checkusers, whether any of the listings that are being made are helpful to them. Newyorkbrad 01:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

As a general rule, no, they're not useful. Ask me in private for the reason why. --Cyde Weys 02:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

While I generally agree with you Cyde, I think descisions about how information on sockpuppets is disseminated and organised should really be up to the checkusers. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 17:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Evidently there's some need for sockpuppet tagging, see the history of this sockpuppet's user page: Evidently there's some reason to tag them beyond the length of their CheckUzer usefulness. 68.39.174.238 06:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Review of Indef Ban User:Raspor

I am requesting review of the indef ban of User:Raspor. I have been in contact with this user and he is willing to not edit the ID article, submit to mentoring, and probation. I believe he is quite sincere Geo. 16:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

From someone who endorsed the community ban at ANI. For starters, it should be all articles even faintly associated with ID. Secondly, mentoring has had mixed results, as on occasion I have seen for myself. Thirdly, the problem is not merely one of bias. This fellow used an extremely unpleasant editing style: blocks for 3RR,WP:POINT violations, and on occasion some extremely unpleasant personal attacks. This sort of thing is likely to follow an editor around whatever they edit. Given all this, I feel that the encyclopedia and the community will not benefit from letting Raspor back in, but I suppose I could be persuaded. Moreschi 16:47, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

He probably would agree to that. Geo. 06:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• Given the fact that he has now evaded the ban several times, with at least one sock and an IP that I know of, I am not convinced. Guy (Help!) 20:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I had typed up a very similar message; one edit conflict later and I will simply QFT Guy's comment. —bbatsell ¿? 20:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Gaming the system

i am watching an interesting case unfold with respect to the definition of a reliable source.

1. An editor wishes to add some content they consider notable. But there are no reliable sources.
2. After the fact, a blog is opened by a credible journalist with content that could be used as a source.
3. Editor claims to know the journalist.
4. Editor claims it is a reliable source since wikipedia accepts quotes written in blogs by credible journalists.

I would discount this blog as a reliable source since it seems just too convenient that the blog appeared with the required information during the dispute on wikipedia. How should one deal with such a case? David D. (Talk) 17:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Is this the journalist's personal blog or a publishing sponsored blog... i.e. Journalist X has a regular blog that he writes for and is hosted on Time.com? If this is a personal blog I don't think it matters if the journalist is credible or not... There is nothing in WP:RS that suggests this is in any way an acceptable source. In fact it says "When a well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as his or her work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications." If this has never been previously published I would say this is not a reliable source. Whether or not the editor knows the journalist is besides the point. If this is an "official" blog, I'd say it might pass muster, but again I don't think writing an article on one journalist's blog posting is the right way to go. I'd request additional sources. Of course it is hard to say in this specific situation without actually seeing the article, source, and journalist in question with diffs.--Isotope23 17:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• Note: RS does not state that the journalist in question must have published the specific piece of wriitng elsewhere: else we would never accept self-published material from professional journalists, but always use the cite from the the "credible third party publication" instead. Admitting self-published material by professional journalists makes a distinction between the 60 million bloggers who are not professional journalists, and the slim minority who are. When they self-publish, they put their professional credibility on the line, in a way that the mass of bloggers do not. This credibility is determined by whether or not they have been published in credible third party publications. In this case, the journalist has self-published something in the area of their experise: language. While the specific material noted has not been published elsewhere, other similar specific material has been published in credible third party publications, and no reason has been offered to doubt the claims asserted by the author.-Cindery 22:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I could give you the specifics but i didn't want to drag people into the argument. The blog is not an official blog, in fact, it is not even the journalists primary blog. I think you make a good point re: the third party publication. it is possible that the blog is a fake too, although that would be stretching AGF at this point. I think requesting additional sources is the best way to go. Thus the arguments about RS and the legitimacy of the blog can be dropped. thanks for your input. David D. (Talk) 17:49, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

"it is possible that the blog is a fake too, although that would be stretching AGF at this point." There's your answer right there. AGF is irrelevant. We cannot absolutely verify that the named journalist is the author: it is not a reliable source. If it's on some site like blogspot, they have no way to verify authorship, and neither do we. Period. End of discussion. Fan-1967 17:52, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• It may pass WP:RS, but it might have WP:OR problems, as well as problems with WP:V's call to use reliable, third party sources. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 17:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Isotope23, the blog was created and the information was posted a few hours befor it was cited. No, the journalist dosn't have a blog on a his paper's website. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 17:38, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind... I found what David D. was talking about on my own while dealing with another issue... man what a mess that whole thing is... Regardless, that is a blogspot post, In my opinion, there is no way, even if this is a notable journalist and her identity can be proven, that this could be considered a reliable source for the grafitti info unless there are other existing sources to back this up. Fan-1967 is right, this should be non-negotiable even if there is some consensus to keep it in the article. It simply is not in anyway a reliable source under the current WP:RS guidelines; and the talk of changing WP:RS that seems to have sprung out of the RfC related to this situation is ridiculous.--Isotope23 21:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• Note: There are other existing sources regarding the graffiti, both in general and in specific. The "talk" re changing the RS guideline was initiated by Milo H. Minderbinder, regarding establishing the identity of authors.-Cindery 22:56, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

part 2

Interesting development that needs further input:

The journalist has two blogs, one is an official blog. The second blog (blogspot), with the disputed facts, was started on Jan 15th 2007. The journalist has linked to the blogspot entry from his official blog, however, the link has been incorporated into a entry he made on Dec 12th 2006. To me (not assuming good faith here) it seems a lot like trying get vanity facts (in this cases specific examples of graffiti) into wikipedia by getting them a seal of approval from authority (the journalist in this case). I see this as exploiting a loophole in the guidelines. Is this any different to than writing ones own personal web site and then using it as a primary source? I am assuming that there needs to be an independant source in this situation. David D. (Talk) 22:11, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Even if the information were on the person's primary blog, its value would be dubious, as for all blogs. As for the other, anything on blogspot.com has to be rejected as not meeting the standards of a Reliable Source. Fan-1967 22:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

That is your opinion, and not what is stated in RS regarding self-published material by professional journalists.-Cindery 23:05, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

But we do not have any reliable source to verify that this material was created by that journalist. Blogspot does not verify article authorship in any way, and a dubious link in the purported author's own blog seems to predate this one by a month, which makes it suspicious at best. If we cannot absolutely, positively, without question verify the authorship, it's worthless. Fan-1967 23:11, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

That's your opinion, it's rather negative and IDONTLIKEIT, and they don't seem to agree with you at RS--see ongoing discussion.-Cindery

They don't know, in theory, where the ongoing discussion is occuring. See, talk:RS/Blog as source for barrington Hall graffiti, talk:RS/Clarifcation request: Blogs of journalists and of course Talk:Barrington_Hall David D. (Talk) 01:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I can't believe that Cindery is still arguing about crap links on Barrington Hall. Aren't there any good sources? Guy (Help!) 08:11, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

She claims there are two other sources, which makes the insistence on this blog all the more puzzling. Thankfully, we have a proposal for editing the article that has received support so far. If anyone here wants to recommend a course of action, feel free to drop in at Talk:Barrington_Hall. --Milo H Minderbinder 13:11, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Erm...

Not like this really belongs here, but I'm just wondering: did I really misuse "Wikify" (The context being that I thought the template should be moved, to "Wikify" article) and did my edit merit a revert and a warning on my talk page ? --Captain Wikify 21:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

That "Revert" looks a litter questionable: I've never seen a template with that long a name. As to the warning, if it misusing a phrase in an inflammatory way (EG. Overbroad application of "vandalism"/"vandal"), I could understand a warning. I suspect the Help:Glossary has a more exact definition of it, but I don't see your use of it as being worthy of a stronger warning then the usuall "Please use edit summaries" one. 68.39.174.238 07:02, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't consider that misuse of the term "wikifying", and certainly not harmful misuse; I'd include general fiddling with the order and formatting of the article to get it to match standard Misplaced Pages format as "wikifying", particularly when it's the order of templates or other wiki-syntax. And from an easy-of-editing prospective, I'd prefer {{List of people K}}, as easier to work with than the cryptically-named {{Lopbn p}}, which also has no documentation, and appears to take some strange arguments (and a large number of them). Mairi 23:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Protection expiry

Kudos to whoever decided to come up with the expiry time for protection. However, is there some sort of guideline on how long protections should last? Or is it just Your Best Judgment® for now? -- tariqabjotu 21:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• This is a fairly new MW feature I believe, and no policy currently exists regarding it, though some discussion on what protection lengths would be appropriate would probably be a Good Thing. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 23:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Blame Werdna. ;) Titoxd 23:24, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

That is so cool! HighInBC 23:24, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow... Why didn't we think of this 6 months ago? :) ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 23:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Heh. You know, more developers = more spiffy features for us... so, all users who have a decent knowledge of PHP should help out! :) Titoxd 23:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• Just noticed it. Also "protect pages transcluded on this". w00t! Guy (Help!) 23:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

It's a shame that there's no note of the expiry of the protection in the page history, but still, that and cascading protection are awesome! --Deskana (request backup) 23:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I was wondering if anyone would ever thing of this... 68.39.174.238 00:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

You mean an automated "protection has expired" entry in the page's history? That does seem like a bug, because isn't recorded in the edit summary of the protection null edit. Titoxd 01:19, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, you can repeatedly unprotect pages (even when not protected) and leave null edits in the page history. Just FYI. --Deskana (request backup) 02:01, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The protection log DOES record the expiration date, if we can get that in the auto edit summary it would be useful. — xaosflux 03:27, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

To help us all along with this great new feature I've updated/created:

• Interface: MediaWiki:Protect-text (new super-brief instuctions)
• Template for tagging: Template:Tprotected ({{tprotected}}) (includes end-user link to the expiration date)

  Short form redirect for template: Template:tprot ({{tprot}})

• Category for new tag'd items Category:Temporarily protected
  • — xaosflux 03:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Important note, if a page has existing protection (e.g. Edit=Auto,Move=Sysop) and you change the protection to anything (e.g. Edit=Sysop, Move=Sysop) AND use an expiration, ALL protections will be removed upon expiration. — xaosflux 03:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't almost all protections be temporary? I thought that was the point: to eliminate the interminable backlog at Misplaced Pages:List of protected pages by having expiration times for protections. -- tariqabjotu 04:38, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Eh what do we need a guildline for. The protecting admin should have an aprox idea as to how long the protection should last for.Geni 13:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. We can figure it out on a case-by-case basis, and over time, admins can look at the lengths others are using and come to some sort of a consensus. --Cyde Weys 15:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

We can create a policy when a need demonstrates itself. HighInBC 15:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The template is not automatically removed though, is it? Cbrown1023 02:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

This is a very nice feature. I think a protection length equal to the block for troll squalling, i.e. those people who after being blocked repetitively spew obscenities onto their talk pages. Article protection timing will require some thought, but 24 hours might be a good starter for cool-down on edit wars. This feature is great--I sometimes forget to unprotect pages once I step in to stop vandalism or an edit war. Antandrus (talk) 03:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Sweet! Quick, someone edit {{utprotected}} now that the block log and page protections can be synchronized. Come to think of it, the page protections can be integrated as an option into the block interface (EG. "Protect user/usertalk pages (Use only for trolls like BA)"). 68.39.174.238 07:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

AmeriCan (talk · contribs)

Despite being warned for canvassing such as this, this user has continued in it. I recommend at least a temporary block. (See also the "Is this userbox appropriate" section above for details on his attack userpage which has since been deleted.)--Azer Red Si? 22:47, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Unless I am missing something this user has not canvased since the warning. HighInBC 23:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I somehow made the exact same mistake as Azer last night when I checked his contribs. But nah, he hasn't done anything other than edit your talk page once complaining about free speech since he was warned and his userpage was deleted. —bbatsell ¿? 16:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I am tempted to switch my time zone to GMT in preferences so that the times in the sigs and the times in the logs match, I am always getting confused. HighInBC 16:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Spamming of Category:Board games

Category:Board games (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been flooded by spam over the past months. If there are no objections, I will delete all the spam edits from the article and restore only the clean edits. The reason for this is the following: when the edits are in the page history, they can still be viewed by readers. Once they are deleted from the article, they will no longer be visible for normal readers, which makes spamming the category a lot less attractive for the spammers. Any thoughts? Aecis 01:11, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds fine. Proto::► 10:26, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

User:JossBuckle Swami

JossBuckle Swami (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is the latest ban-evading incarnation of Gregory Kohs (MyWikiBiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) / Thekohser (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) / 207.8.215.81 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)). Having descended yet again into trolling and pushing his agenda with relation to the blocking of his MyWikiBiz account, I have blocked him. Guy (Help!) 09:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• Appears like a sound desicision to me. I knew something didn't smell right, and it wasn't the fast food I had for dinner. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 09:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• Um, he did fully admit to it above. Anyway, what's wrong with this guy being around? Just curious. Patstuart 10:02, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

What is wrong is a few things. First, he was blocked by Jimbo and has not been unblocked, so any new account is a ban-evading sockpuppet, block on sight and delete any articles as WP:CSD#G5. Second, he honestly thinks Misplaced Pages is in business to attract companies to create articles. He thinks that we are failing in a findamental aim because we erect barriers to companies creating PR articles on themselves. In other words, he simple does not get it, despite having had the conept of Misplaced Pages explained ot him multiple times. Third, he keeps lapsing into vanity and spamming of his own websites. Fourth, he keeps trolling. Fifth, he is selling Misplaced Pages articles. Guy (Help!) 10:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Huh. I'd figured out JossBuckle Swami was my MyWikiBiz (easy enough to follow the trail), but I hadn't realized he'd been banned. Oy, I could have saved the trouble of arguing with him. --Calton | Talk 13:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I think we can consider MyWikiBiz to be community-banned, beyond Jimbo's personal block. Chick Bowen 15:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

We can assume two things: as long as his site is up he will be banned, and he will continue creating sockpuppets. -- ReyBrujo 15:54, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Let's make this official

I propose a community ban of MyWikiBiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Thekohser (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), JossBuckle Swami (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), et al. for disruption, spamming, and damaging the integrity of Misplaced Pages. ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 20:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Please note that Jimbo did not ban MyWikiBiz, he blocked MyWikiBiz, and later unblocked MyWikiBiz with a strongly worded message on their user page disowning the practice of hiring editors to write articles on Misplaced Pages. ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 20:46, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• • Up to a point, Lord Copper.

04:59, October 5, 2006 Jimbo Wales (Talk | contribs | block) blocked "MyWikiBiz (contribs)" with an expiry time of indefinite (inappropriate use of Misplaced Pages name in commerce; implying that people can pay him to get listed in Misplaced Pages)

• • So, banned by Jimbo. Guy (Help!) 22:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Indef block != ban. Bans apply to a person or entity, and are enforced by a block. A block is just a mechanical means of stopping the edits of one account. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 22:46, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• Seconded. If they won't go peacefully, then we need to get out the big guns. Shadow1 (talk) 20:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• Thirded. It's bad enough, IMHO, to offer that sort of business, but block evasion makes it even worse. Especially Jimbo-block evasion. Veinor 20:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• Yup. Disruptive, vain, spammer, soapboxer, disruptive, and disruptive. Oh, and he's disruptive, too. Guy (Help!) 20:27, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• I support the idea, but aren't we differentiating between a ban made by Jimbo and a ban made by the community? What follows, a ban by the Arbitration or the Foundation? Just wondering... -- ReyBrujo 20:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
  • He was blocked by Jimbo. I think it makes sense to make clear that he is banned too. Personally I thought that was already implicit, but there's no reason not to make explicit. Chick Bowen 20:46, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• Here's the thing: he was banned by Jimbo, and soon unbanned. I think we need to keep that in mind. Keep in mind, I'm not taking a stance on the current ban: I don't know him well enough. Striking, he was rebanned. Patstuart 20:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• endorse ban - please do... we don't want people paying mywikibiz for articles in wikipedia. Thats just not right, and exaberates the spam problem that we already have. —— Eagle 101 20:40, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse. Chick Bowen 20:46, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• Who's the brave soul who will start the MyWikiBiz article? "A company founded by Greg Kohs that charges money to create Misplaced Pages articles. Kohs is indefinitely banned from Misplaced Pages, and any articles created by him may be deleted without debate under WP:CSD#G5{{fact}}". Oh bugger, self-reference. Guy (Help!) 22:46, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse permanent ban. This is so far from the principles of Misplaced Pages that I don't see anything wrong in having a declaration both from Jimbo and from the community that we will not have anything to do with it. Sam Blacketer 23:02, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Can someone look into this?

A blocked user, Knowpedia (talk · contribs), requested my assistance , but I don't have any time at the moment to look into this. The user had previously been a responsible editor, but I"m unaware of recent circumstances. older ≠ wiser 11:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Not too sure, you may wish to ignore this request. Terence Ong 12:14, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Why was this described in the block log as a "vandalism-only account"? That seems inaccurate. I've left a note at the blocking admin's talk page. Chick Bowen 15:30, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

PRODding other people's User pages and wiping out an existing User page with a Welcome template look like vandalism, to me. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting situation because while those PROD, etc were definitely vandalism, it appears the rest of Knowpedia's edits were reasonably good faith. I think at this point an indef is probably a bit harsh though there may be circumstances here that I'm not aware of.--Isotope23 19:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I don't disagree that those edits were vandalism. It's the vandalism-only that I'm questioning. As Isotope23 says, if there are other circumstances than fine, but if there's a discrepancy between what's described in the log and what appears to have happened then it makes sense to investigate. Chick Bowen 19:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• It was blocked in relation to a VandalProof tool abuse report. It was using VandalProof to tag user pages as CSDs, prod them, so on so forth. Betacommand revoked the user's access and they were blocked. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 22:17, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

That's not what User talk:AmiDaniel/VP/Abuse says Peter. You appear to be confusing the "test" speedy deletion tagging of an article (Gay icon here), with the later {{prod}} of three user pages. There may be contribs which have been deleted, but what's visible seems the sort of thing that merits a short (or even not-so-short) sharp block. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I have shortened the block to one week with consent of MrDarcy, the blocking admin. Please keep an eye on this user; I will too. Chick Bowen 01:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Another Linda Christas content pusher

Can we get a sock check on User:FredLevine who's currently at large on Talk:Margaret Spellings. He's extremely determined that a provably bogus quote be kept in the article even though it doesn't appear in the transcript of the interview in question. Thanks! - Richfife 15:40, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, his Talk page was a red link. I've now explained 3RR to him. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:29, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Er, yeah. Should have done that. I'm of the opinion that all Christas content comes from a single person (paging Ronald Bernard), though, so there seemed little point in posting pointers on the talk page. - Richfife 00:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

My message says that I am assuming good faith, but let him know I'm not stupid.  :) User:Zoe|(talk) 16:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

He should have been blocked on sight. This one is a notorious fraud/spammer of us, with many socks that have been blocked. I would do it, but I'm a non-admin. Patstuart 23:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Can someone close this AfD please

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/F@NB0Y$ has been a circus since it started, I think it is time to close, but I participated in it so cannot close it myself. HighInBC 16:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

*shudder* A webcomic AfD... has anyone else noticed AfDs getting more and more insanely argumentative lately? Tony Fox (arf!) 16:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

It is because the webcomic posted the AfD on it's forum and told everyone to come vote. HighInBC 16:40, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not just that one. I've seen a lot of others go crazy when they should be really easily dealt with. (Current case in point that I mentioned on here previously - SPAs all over the place, guidelines and policies be damned, and so on.) Is it a full moon or something? Tony Fox (arf!) 16:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Q: Comment, what evidence do we have that this webcomic is gaining in popularity?

A: Common sense alone should garner the growing popularity given it's increase feature in the Joystiq polls

Priceless! -- ReyBrujo 17:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• Closed, with a rationale that probably took longer to write than it deserved. I tried to be kind. Guy (Help!) 17:40, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Nicely done. Tony Fox (arf!) 18:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Good closing, way to educate. HighInBC 20:26, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

An exemplary closing. I'll have to try and summon the time and/or patience for something like it next time I see a mess like that. Sandstein 20:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I looked at that F@NBOY$ AfD page for deletion just a couple of days ago, along with the web page that encouraged readers to submit keep, and it seemed like an unfair AfD. When looking back at the AfD, I wasn't sure if the people writing Keep, actually wanted to keep it, or just obeying the webpages authors views. Great Job on deleting that article. It needed to go! Thanks much again! Chickyfuzz123 01:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Experience on WP:DRV indicates that a really clear closing rationale helps enormously in cases likely to be disputed, especially if the subject comes up again in a year when things have changed. Hopefully this won't get to DRV until something has changed, as I think I made it clear enough for now that the case is currently pretty hopeless. Guy (Help!) 11:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmm they made a commic about us. However anyone who has ever clicked the wrong link on commons will know that wikipedians do have nads and are aparently rather proud of them.Geni 10:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Yes ads and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject No ads

Should we allow advocacy WikiProjects? This doesn't seem to be the reason we are here. User:Zoe|(talk) 18:36, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Ummm, well, it is directly related to the ongoing running of wikipedia. But it's not realy a project, it's a narrowly focused discussion. Perhapse merging them and moveing it to WP:CENT would be better? ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 18:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• Aaaaaargh! No! There is endless precedent for not having, creating, keeping, encouraging or permitting Wikiprojects which advocate one side of a debate. All it does is polarise. It doesn't help that one of these had only three edits, one of which was from Greg Kohs. A meta-debate on meta-advertising, whether, and in what form, and so on, is fine, of course. Kohs seems to have interpreted it as implying we should have ads in mainspace though... Guy (Help!) 19:33, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject No ads is pretty long running and pretty harmless. Well unless you want adds on wikipedia of course. A bit like Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countering systemic bias. Any attempt to delete it would be somewhat silly and likely fall foul of the disruption clause. In short I don't think we need any more drama right now.Geni 20:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, so it's harmless to those that agree with it. As JzG said, there is longstanding precedent that one sided advocacy is not a good thing. WP:CSB is totally different because it is directly working on improving the project by fixing a current problem. Obviously Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Yes ads is Pointy, but the point is actually valid. You can't disallow one, while keeping the other side. - Taxman 21:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Ha, well, I'd like to see who'd be willing to slit their throat and put it up for WP:MFD :P. Patstuart 22:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• I would. Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox, even for wikipedia-related issues. There are much better and far less divisive ways to go about this than silly advocacy wikiprojects. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 22:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Please back up that claim with evidence. Remember the wikiproject did atchive it's initial aims.Geni 22:52, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Which doesn't mean it was the right, or or best way to do it, nor even that it doesn't cause more damage than good. The only reason I wouldn't put it up for MfD is I think there'd be way too much ILIKEIT and not enough application of policy. But do let me know if someone does. - Taxman 15:00, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

If you think there are better ways name them.Geni 18:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

There don't have to be better ways to do it for it not to be something that we want to have here (ie not meet our policies and goals). But a non partisan factual discussion of the pro's and con's of accepting advertising would be better than the current AVOID ADS BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY type of thing currently there. But do we even need that? Meta is more the place for that type of thing. Personally I think it's amusing people are willing to let mirrors get advertising income on their work, but not the Wikimedia Foundation. At any rate policy is fairly clear that partisan things like this are not what we are here for, and I would say the same thing about a similar page for the opposing view. - Taxman 19:28, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

So you supported the answers.com deal as intialy stated?Geni 14:04, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't recall excatly how it was originally stated, but I recall there was a big difference between how it was stated and what was assumed. It's also not relevant to whether the Wikiproject is the type of thing we want here, but I do support opt-in only advertising. I've not yet seen any compelling arguments against that, and an order of magnitude more funds than are currently available could be very well utilized to reaching the foundation's mission. - Taxman 23:58, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

• I dont think that the First Pillar is very ambiguous about this. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 23:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Any interpritation that rules out the no ads wikiproject would also likey impact this board.Geni 23:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Why? --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 23:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

First allow Wizardry Dragon to put forth his interpritation of the frist Pillar.18:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

While I have a certain conceptual amount of agreement, I'm wondering how much of a real difference would be made by more or less retitling the above group to WikiProject Ad Analysis or something of the like. Given the prevailing sentiment, it seems like even if based in non-advocacy the discussion would be largely the same. Heck, it may be that allowing this as an avenue for the expression of some pretty strong feelings may even better allow for a separate project or discussion to be more neutrally grounded. Isn't this something where we'd be served to not only look at the strict sense, but also the context and cost/benefit as a whole? Bitnine 15:29, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Deleting personal information posted by a vandal

An anonymous vandal appears to have posted some very detailed personal information about someone in the Alyssa article. The edit has already been reverted, but the information still exists in the history. Can an administrator remove that edit for real? Valrith 22:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I've handled it temporarily by moving it to a subpage and deleting the details there, but in the future such information should be directed to those with oversight (and more discretely :P ) so that it can be removed permanently from the history. I'll see if I can find an oversight to handle the leftovers. Cowman109 22:26, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Canvassing for a non-Misplaced Pages related poll?

See this. —Dark•Shikari 23:12, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

That's a nono, user warned. HighInBC 23:14, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Definitely, I'd suggest reverting his edits and deleting the user subpage--or at least MFDing it. —Dark•Shikari 23:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, NOT violations are not speediable, I created a mfd here Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:ANNAfoxlover/Pixar. Perhaps someone else may think of this as advertising and speedy it, I am not sure myself. HighInBC 23:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, G11 could cover it. —Dark•Shikari 01:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

You convinced me. HighInBC 03:08, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Spawnopedia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user has been indef-blocked for WP:BLP violations, incivility, and abusiveness. Some of us suspect he is a sockpuppet of a banned user, but the checkuser did not confirm that. Thus, I'm wondering about his article Ruth Ann Moorehouse, which is also rather a BLP violation. Without checkuser confirmation I suppose it can't be deleted as WP:CSD#G5, but I'd propose deletion under G10. I'd rather not do it myself since I'm already involved, however. Thanks. Chick Bowen 23:33, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

It was pretty clear from the subjects of the articles the two chose to edit, and their aggressive discussion style, that they were the same person. But Spawnopedia got blocked serially by three different admins, anyway.  :) User:Zoe|(talk) 23:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Given that the article was apparently written and pasted in one sitting, has anyone checked it for copyvio? Newyorkbrad 23:56, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

It is, and is now tagged for speedy deletion, but it's older than 48 hours. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:02, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Gone. Newyorkbrad 00:05, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I deleted it. I doubt that User:Spawnopedia was planning to take advantage of the grace period to request relicensing from the actual author. Jkelly 00:07, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Also, to Angus: note that the 48-hour thing is no longer part of the copyvio policy (there was a Jimbo order a while back). Chick Bowen 00:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Pay-per-edit?

Just dropping a note. --physicq (c) 00:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Hiring an independent source to repair inaccuracies seems like a fine way to avoid conflict of interest, if that was really the deal. HighInBC 00:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo has stated, and I agree, that this is a very unethical practice. It should be discouraged. Very strongly. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 00:35, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, if Jimbo said it then that is another matter... HighInBC 00:37, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I quote:

Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 00:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Jimbo. The whole point of Misplaced Pages is that we are all volunteers, who are in this just for the love of it. We have no vested interests in this project, we have nothing to gain and nothing to lose (besides an off-wiki life ;). Paying someone to edit Misplaced Pages for you is absurd. Besides, wouldn't this make the blogger Microsoft's meatpuppet? And I don't think hiring meatpuppets will circumvent WP:COI. Aecis 00:48, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• Boy, I thought Guy was joking last week about not getting paid. You other sysops aren't getting the anonymous deposit of $5,000 (USD) from a numbered Cayman Island account each month? Teke 01:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• I knew there was more to it when I didn't pass my RFA last week... so who got the extra cash? AH! HA! It was you wasn't it? (eyes turning left ... then right) Seriously though, what would be wrong, if considering I am a notable enough subject, WP:V, WP:NOR, etc... lets say Phil McNeely. And I wanted to pay a student to make sure my article was well balanced per wiki policy... or even to start an article on my bio. Perhaps, he may even defended the article on my bio from being edited or having information that may be libelious and negative to not only my political campaign but my life as well. If someone can obviously argue his way through the system, such as lawyers often does for their DUI clients, then I see no reason why we (an experienced wikipedian) can't be payed. Perhaps my hidden skills as an expert writer, lawyer, or something else will help propogate my POV. Perhaps a real paid lawyer could give me a fair representation during my debates. Perhaps a well experience wikipedian will know how to contour the rules in this persons favour. Remember every article is full of POVs (see the quote on my user page). I'm not saying we should keep the information, but if Microsoft wants to spend 10'000 $ during the launch of Windows Vista to make sure that certain POV are well sourced and properly reference as per wikipolicy, I'll make sure to argue it the best I can per my knowlege and experience in advocacy at AMA and as per my education. Jimbos opinion is exactly the same as mine. It's one man's opinion. --CyclePat 02:08, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

P.s.: It's funny you quote WP:COI. That "guideline" says "avoid editing articles related to your organization or its competitors;" however as an independant contractor writing for an organisation, technically, I would not be related to the company. I obviously wouldn't be arms lenght but technically, I wouldn't be editing an article related to my organization. --CyclePat 02:21, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Letter vs. spirit. —bbatsell ¿? 02:37, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• People who take advocacy as you do make me question my membership in the AMA. What part of unethical is hard to get your mind around? Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 02:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
  • LOL, Well... where do I start.... (self referene back to my above comment? nah). Well, in general, being a prosecutor (attacking), I think, doesn't require much imagination, but being a defence lawyers requires a lot more imagination. ie.: He might have been here, he migth have been there, we could done this instead, the wikirule might have meant this, etc... (oops! Advocates aren't lawyers that's true.) Anyways, being an advocate is about the same because you are somewhate making a choice to defend the other side, all while remaining still technically being honest and ethical. However, again, it always requires, a lot more imagination to defend someone. "There is always another way of seeing things or the possibility of another solution to what is being alleged." Surely, and I mean this as a compliment, your little train that could still has some imagination to remain an advocate and undestand that there is really nothing unethetical about arguing other possibilities!!! How else would we protect the right of the trully innocent wikipedians! ;) (smiles) (Don't worry, like the Bernado case, a good defense lawyer eventually releases even incriminating videos) p.s.: good one Bbatsell! --CyclePat 03:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

A few things here.

• COI is a guideline, and has next to no teeth. (All it says is try to avoid them)
• The whole point of Misplaced Pages isn't about the "love of it", but is about writing an encyclopedia.
• I thought the whole treatment of the MyWikiBiz scenario was an absolute farce, and involved drawing up some of the worst guidelines ever. (It involved the paid party writing articles off wiki for other unrelated users to copy over, which pretty much meant in was incredibly hard to trace compared to say drawing up articles in the userspace or AFC)
• I have no qualms over Misplaced Pages:Reward board.
• I believe that you can be paid to write something an still maintain a neutral encyclopedic stance, even if you are being paid by an involved party.
• I believe that if we maintain a high level of accountability of paid-edits they can be beneficial to Misplaced Pages. And a lot less damaging than the hordes of drive by vanity anon spam that we get.
• Having your firm/services connected to the use of a paid-editor is a hell of a lot less damaging for your publicity than having crap erroneous articles about your firm/services.

hahnchen 02:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

For a similar situation, see the Arch Coal DRV. - hahnchen 02:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't really see paying someone to write an article about your buisness to be any better or worse than doing it yourself. If you are notable enough and its not written like an advert noone will ever know and it will probablly stick. Otherwise you will have wasted your money and possiblly caused yourself other problems (like seeing the deletion debate for your article as the first result for a google search on your name). Plugwash 02:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I personally don't quite agree with Jimbo's stance on this. While I understand somewhat his opposition to the MyWikiBiz, and even agree with it partially, this is somewhat different IMHO. Microsoft appear to have down this in a fairly resonably way, approaching a blogger who I presume was considered fair and neutral, not someone who wrote about Microsoft the best company in the world all the time. Their conditions clearly didn't require any level of performance and as this blogger wasn't running a business, it seems far less likely they would care much whether they kept their hirer happy. Indeed, as a blogger with a reputation to keep, it would seem not that likely IMHO. Definitely it's far better then the goodness knows how many companies who have employees doing it on company time. Perhaps MS should have done this via the Misplaced Pages:Bounty board or Misplaced Pages:Reward board and gone for FA or something 203.109.240.93 17:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

For whatever it's worth, this story has reached the front page of cnn.com, so it seems to be getting a lot of attention... ATren 18:45, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, if someone wants to pay me $5,000 to put what they want in articles, as long as they can give me a reliable source, I will happily do so. HEck, it doesn't even have to be reliable. Or be a source. Just give me money, please. Proto::► 21:58, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

My first AFD closure (as non-admin) per WP:DELPRO

This article, The Cheetah Girls (TV series), is my first AFD closure as a non-admin. A peer review on how I did would be greatly appreciated. I closed the AFD, merged the information to the new article and redirect to that article. It feel like, assides from the the fact that I didn't blank and redirect the discusion page talk:The Cheetah Girls (TV series), like I left something out. Your comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. --CyclePat 01:45, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Good job on being bold! However, you might want to have left this for an admin to sort out because there were a number of delete motions. As WP:DELPRO says, "Non-administrators may only close decisions which are unambiguous "keep" decisions. Close calls and controversial or ambiguous decisions should be left to an administrator." It say this was kind of a close call due to previous AfDs. Anybody else have any comments? PTO 02:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

That looks to me like a fair close, but in the future, I'd really recommend holding off on closing something that is that borderline. Not because you can't do it correctly, but because it tends to cause more problems than it solves. If all of AfD is that backlogged, then I'd drop a note on WP:AN and if it's just one article drop a note on an admin you know to be around. —bbatsell ¿? 02:30, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! In the future, I'll make sure they are a little more obvious (ie. something like 16 merge/redirect, 2 delete, 2 keep). Maybe the lenghty little conclusion explaining how I came to the decision was a good hint that it may be ambiguous. But then again I though it helped explain how it was unambigous. Thank you again, for your constructive comments. --CyclePat 03:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Notice: Help! I was hopping to simply do the changes as per the request. But I suddenly noticed that all or most of the information I merged was deleted from the article. Which leaves me wondering if this doesn't go against the spirit of the decision from the AFD, that it be merged vs deleted. I figured I should stay at, ironically, "arms lenght" on this one. But my gut is telling me that it didn't have enough sources and the editor is removing the inform to keep his POV instead of finding sources (which I know exist). Good luck! I'm like I said. I think I should leave this one up to someone else. Its a sad story.--CyclePat 04:07, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh Pat, you've waded in with both feet again, haven't you? Guy (Help!) 12:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Something about climbing structures and Spiderman suits comes to mind again... :) ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 12:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Request to close old RfC

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Piotrus (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) had no edits since 30 December and no discussions since 25 December. It was archived on 22 January, as per Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/User_conduct#Closing_and_archiving Disputes may be removed from this page and archived under any of the following circumstances:: If no additional complaints are registered for an extended period of time, and the dispute appears to have stopped. and The dispute proceeds to another method of dispute resolution, such as mediation or arbitration. which were fullfilled as the dispute has progressed to both mediation and arbitration. I have filed some closing remarks on the discussion today, as I considered the RfC closed - it was however unarchived by a user who is having a recent disupte with me and who wrote There is no such thing as an official closing of RfC. I'd like if somebody could review this case and decide if this can be archived or not; I consider this matter closed as I don't believe RfC should be used as some 'black lists of greviances against a user'.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  02:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, Piotrus? Why can't you just talk and run to various boards all the time? --Irpen 02:19, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

It would also be nice if somebody could deal with the harassment above, it's getting tiresome.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  02:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you requesting someone to block your opponent again? Tiresome indeed. --Irpen 02:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• Really Piotrus, this is getting very WP:POINTy. Please desist. ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 02:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Decist from what? It was Irpen who 'unarchived' my RfC (and it was not me who archived it).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  02:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Holly s&*%$, I can't even save my comments because of edit conflicts... this is a fisty subject isn't it. You may want to take a look at WP:AMA, open a case, and perhaps an advocate such as myself will be able to help you out. Send me an email once you've done this if you wish for me to help advocate your cause. --CyclePat 02:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I was the person who originally tried to close the RFC, but, frankly, it's not worth fighting over. --Ideogram 02:35, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

It is indeed improper to close an RFC when you are the subject of it, Piotrus - it should probably remain open for a longer time as the original closure by Ideogram has been contested. However, we really don't need all the comments here about Piotrus being on a campaign to get you blocked, Irpen. Can we please be civil on WP:AN, of all places? This nitpicking between the two of you is disruptive. Cowman109 02:37, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• • I didn't close the RfC. It was done by another user. I just object to reopening it as it has progressed to mediation/ArbCom (and the rules state it should be archived in such case).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  02:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
• Piotrus, this is the, what, fourth board you've posted on about this, at least? It's starting to get annoying and disruptive, please desist. ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 02:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
  • This is the first and only board I posted in relation to closing and unclosing of my RfC. Please list other boards that I raised this issue on - I am not aware of them. If I indeed did so, I will apologize and go see a doctor about my apparent memory loss; however if I didn't do so I am expecting an apology.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  02:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Piotrus, this is the fourth in a succession of boards where you and Irpen have dragged your conflict into. I'm not entirely blaming you, because it's both your fault, but you're both skirting blocks for disruption. The second step in Dispute Resolution is to disengage. I suggest you try that, now. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 02:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
      • Ah, so you are talking about that larger conflict. That would be third public board by my count (WP:RFI, WP:ANI, WP:AN, am I missing the 4th?). But anyway I indeed said all I wanted to; I leave it to the community to judge what if any actions should be taken against any users involved in this conflict, and now I will take yours and others' advice, step into the sidelines of this and try to relax.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  03:01, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

(Edit-conflict in response to Piotrus) The attempts to re-close it, I mean. Things like this get iffy in any situation when someone tries to deal with something that concern them - it's best to leave it to others. For now it's probably best to just let time take its course. Cowman109 02:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed - which is why I posted a comment here for others to review that matter, and take appopriate actions (close it or don't close it, but comment on the issue).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  02:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

WP:RFI submitted for deletion

I submitted WP:RFI for deletion for the very similar reasons why WP:PAIN is now deleted. I think this is worthy to be announced here. --Irpen 02:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• Unless the server cache is acting up, it looks like you copied the instructions to MfD listing to the top of the page instead of the actual listing notice. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 02:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

RfC deletion request

Re: Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/SteveWolfer

Quoting the standard instructions at the top of the RfC page: "In order to remain listed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 20:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 17:38, 11 January 2025 (UTC)."

Because User:Simoes has rescinded his certification of this dispute, which leaves this dispute with only one endorser, and because time has passed the 48-hour deadline cited above, this RfC needs to be deleted. Please look into this. More importantly, it appears this RfC was directed at Mr. Wolfer as a personal attack, abusing the system for that purpose.

User:Buridan appears to be the culprit in the ongoing dispute, totally ignoring consensus and engaging in a purge of Ayn Rand across the lists of Misplaced Pages. I've been working a lot with lists over the past year, and I've never seen anything like this - he shows a complete disregard for the consensus generated on talk pages and plows forward with item removals even when this course of action lacks consensus. See also next request below.   The Transhumanist    02:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)