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Judenräte

A distinguishing feature of the Holocaust, according to historical analysis and the concensus of the article's editors, and what separates it from other genocides during WW2 (and other genocides in history), was the "efficient" manner of its implementation by the perpetrators (2.1) Yet there is no mention anywhere in the article about the role of the Judenräte in the deportation of the Jews under their watch to the camps. The leaders of the various Judenräte had different approaches to the job of providing slave labor to the Nazi regime -- distributing rations to the occupants of the Ghettos, deciding who would get on the trains, and other tasks -- but it's clear that they played a fundamental role in the organization of the round-ups and deportations. It's also clear that many of them knew that the trains were bound for extermination camps in the end, not just labor camps. Various sources also state the corrupt nature of councils, citing how it was possible, for example, to avoid deportation with a payment or bribe. Resistance was futile, of course, but the cooperation must be noted because it contributed to the "efficiency" of the Final Solution. If we omit this due to sensitivity, or because we read into the accounts that such actions must have been performed reluctantly, we risk damaging the credibility of the article; among the other entries in the "collaborators" section there is no such defense given. Where does this discussion belong: 2.1, 7.1, 7.3, 8.1, 10, and/or 12? I propose 10 and 12 among these because some Zionists argued for a sovereign state precisely because of the compromised role Jews were forced to play, the logic being that as sovereign constituents they would never again be forced to participate in their own destruction. Patrekursson 05:29, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

(I injected some Umlauts into the preceding paragraph to make it's heading less ambiguous Wefa 21:50, 15 January 2007 (UTC) )

Archived

Nothing much about the actual article was going on, so I figured it was a good day to archive. --jpgordon 18:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Jpgordon, other than personal attacks on me for trying to learn more about the Holocaust so I can debate Revisionists, you're right that archiving it was the right thing to do. Jtpaladin 18:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

rewording

24.68.157.4 00:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC) "Incineration was at first considered infeasible until it was discovered that furnaces could be kept at a high enough temperature to be sustained by the body fat of the bodies alone."

Might that read better as "Incineration was at first considered infeasible until it was discovered that furnaces could be sustained at a high enough temperature by the body fat of the bodies alone."? It's a bit confusing first time around.

Any record that this was a German idea - self-cremation with the deads' own body fat. A link on this would be good. I thought the idea of body fat cremation developed after the war to explain the lack of fuel that was available to the Germans to cremate the victims. I have never heard of any actual German document even remotely mentioning what would have been akin to cold fusion. Is this a witness testimony idea, if so, from what year? I have never heard of this technolgy being used before or since the 1940s, and in no other place but Poland. Could McDonalds, beef processors, Perdue, etc use this same technique - why don't they - would it work in the US or is this a Poland specific thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.105.80.219 (talk • contribs) 12:56, January 9, 2007 (UTC)

• I dunno about present-day uses. The invention of the multiple muffle incineration furnace was certainly German -- the documentation of the invention and delivery of these is available -- and is a necessary part of such an assembly line operation. --jpgordon 14:58, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Is the documentation on the capacities of these furnaces available? Link? Dates on the first mention of bodies burning from their own fat? I actually thought the burning with their own fat involved outdoor cremations, but maybe I am mixing up camps. If this technology was so highly advanced in Germany in the 1940, what happened since - no current use? lost knowledge?

• (a) Please sign your posts with ~~~~. (b) Well, there's not a lot of use for high-capacity 24-hour crematoriums. --jpgordon 18:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, the Topf double-muffle furnace is well documented, it was patented, variations on it were patented, construction diagrams were left in Auschwitz, I have seen reprints of the above in three books just in the past week since this has been "debated". As Jpgordon suggests, the on-site cremation of huge quantities at a time is not something that is profitable at the present time, and building a portable one to ship around to sites of mass disaster doesn't seem feasible. Makes one wonder just what conditions there might have been in the 1940s in Germany which would have made Topf find a good potential market for designing, patenting, and building such devices, hmm? (And why in the world would MacDonalds, Perdue, etc. want to efficiently cremate the animals they slaughter for resale as food????)Gzuckier 16:58, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The US Agricultre Dept could use this technology ( or at least have it ready ) when they have to dispose of livestock, disease etc. I am sure there would be found many uses for this technology, to say nothing of the offshoots of it. ( We the scare we are always told about - pandemic flu - millions might die - being able to cremate millions would be necessary. Fuelless cremation would be more than a minor benefit. Finding the documentation would not be a sensless endeavor - maybe someone knows whwere to look, I have far too little expertise in thermaltechnology to find it but some wikipedian must have, or know someone who does. A scientist could be a good first step, maybe someone know a scientist who will vouch for the idea. )Do you have a link as to the scientific basis of this? Link? Whether it is of use or not, it can't be documented ( citation needed unless we have a link to something scientific ) without some link. PS Reading the main article over again I noticed that there are many places that continue to need citations. They appear to be issues that are virtually uncitationable ( a new word? ). What is eventually done when no citation can be produced or the citation is a circular reference? Wiki policy - can the uncitated section continue that way forever? 159.105.80.219 14:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Anyway all science is worthy of pursuit, particularly scientific events that have multiple witnesses. I have never seen a "scientist" venture forth on this subject or maybe I just haven't seen the link yet. 159.105.80.219 14:37, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

• This would probably be a more fruitful discussion at Talk:Cremation. --jpgordon 18:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid there appears to be little fruitful discussion at Talk:Cremation. The modern science seems to be centered at a temperature way higher than open air burning or fat can produce - forced air with lots of high BTU fuel seems to be the modern trend. Other methods - India etc - seem to require lots of time and lots of wood and then it appears the job is only partially done, at least for the poor. The modern times are also very slow compared to the German 1940ish technology. Since this technology seems to have only been used in Poland in the 1940s - by the Germans - and is a lynchpin of the extermination camps - it appears to be a Holocaust subject. Is the Topf company still in existence?159.105.80.219 20:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

• Well -- the purpose of these pages isn't for general discussion about the topic; it's for discussing the content of the pages. Anyway, the Topf company no longer exists, though it did have some post-WWII existence. If you can read German, this is a pretty good history of the company. (The automatic translation is a little silly, as always.) --jpgordon 00:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Incineration using human body fat is in the body of the main article. That statement deserves a citation if you have one. The article has created the discussion - particularly when it is such a dubious claim ( unless of course you have a citation - preferably of some scientific weight ).

PS The wiki article "Holocaust denial" after discussing "Censorship" seems to have been closed - wiki does have a sense of humor - abruptly. Any info on why the locking of the discussion page - maybe the watchlist participants got exhausted or ran out of ideas. The "Censorship" section of the page is particularly funny/appalling/???/(can't think of a good term).

RE "the purpose of these pages ....... it's for discussing the content of the pages." I agree completely - however the article seems to keep uncited material, ie cremation using mysteriuos undocumented methods - self burning using your own fat for just one example. If you are going to keep this kind of information in the main article then maybe you should lock the entire article and leave it like it is. If the holocaust survives as an historical event with( or in spite of )this kind/quality of evidence then of what use is it. Your enemies/friends must all be metally ill and/or ( and more likely) retarded. Do this article the same favor/honor you did to holocaust denial - close it.

Your inability to force yourself to exert the vast effort needed to use Google to check the widely available articles on a topic doth not "mysterious undocumented" make it. Gzuckier 19:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I have finally exerted myself and found a near original source - jewishgen.org, a place you probably know and trust. Did you know that according to jewishgen.org ( or the witnesses ) that blood also was found to be a good fuel - new one on me. A strange thing happened with the fat fuel however. Instead of burning up it was found in the pits as a layer at the bottom. The fat fuel seems to have caused the cremation and instead of being consumed like all other fuels it reappears and deposits itself beneath the ashes, not on top after it has done its thing. Of course it deposited itself at the bottom of pits that our old friend Krege couldn't find. Google didn't help much on the patent thing though - any links?

Jewishgen as an organization does not do any research itself, it is more like Misplaced Pages, it collects information provided by its members. It cannot be cited as a source. Please give us the exact source of the information above, i.e. on what kind of web page it was found (discussion archive? yizkor page?) and what was the original source of information.  Andreas  14:05, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Google really does work - H Tauber, F Mueller, R Hoess( camp commandant), wikipedia articles ( Bergen Belsen footnotes I believe lead to a women witness who testified at Nuremberg or one of the other trials), ..... Raul Hilberg quotes Mueller a lot for one impeccable citation ( I hope Hilberg is still on good terms with everyone). Hoess - either at Nuremberg or in later writings ( in pencil ) was persuaded to tell his story, including the fat for fuel version. Tauber seems to be a well qouted eyewitness - too easy to find to need much citation. He's the one who ate his sandwich in the gas cahmber I believe, scooped up fat to feed the fire, etc. - Pressac' Auschwitz. Most of this stuff - testimony - made it to the big time , court transcripts, scholarly books, Vad Vashem, etc.

Cheer up, http://www.cremationassociation.org/html/article-weight.html has some information on cremation and fat content. The self-cremation story it turns out does have a slight scientific basis. If the person to be cremated is morbidly obese then caution has to be used in the initial stages of cremation - the fat BTUs can cause heat ( even self-sustaining cremation can occur for a short period ) that can harm the oven. However, in a prison camp the likelyhood of many 300+lb bodies is probably remote and having enough of them to maintain the whole operation is unlikely. After the initial stage, however, the process requires considerable fuel and time. Not all good news but there is a kernel of truth to the story - I hope that someone with a kernel of knowledge hasn't lead everyone down a path that ends poorly. Fat can't do it but coke/coal/wood/etc could. I believe the problem may be that the availible supplies of fuel are not sufficient to handle the stated victim counts, probably why this straw was grasped at by a non-technical type ( unless of course someone can come up with the patent of the purported technique and demonstate to modern science/crematorium operators how it is done ). PS The BTU in fat, at 17 times tissue BTUs, still only are able to partially consume their(fat) mass.

Really cheer up - coke as is said to be used for the cremations has always been ribbed(ridiculed) because it was stated that only 3.5kg per body was avaiilable is actually a possible fuel. At 12,400 BTUs per lb 3.5 kg of coal coke could consume 95.48+- lbs of animal waste ( rendering plant data - all I could find ). If my arithmetic is okay then, discount the bones and assume most victims were skinny then 3.5kg could work for an average sized man/big woman/couple of children/..., more or less ( if the operation was more or less continuous - no cool down except for repairs/iffy ). Does anyone have the BTUs of fat or flesh ( 17 times more BTUs in fat )? Some witness may have seen the cremation of an unusually large body that ( if the BTU formula works out ) could have consumed or largely consumed itself or at least the flesh. It is however unlikely that fat cremation is a viable overall procedure - but it may work in unusual circumstances. PSPS Can't work - 3500 calories per lb of fat

                                              - 252 calories = 1 BTU, gives 14 BTU/lb fat
                                              - with 1000 BTU needed per lb of flesh
                                              - would need 71 lbs of fat for 1 lb of flesh to
                                                burn yourself
                                              - 98.6% fat is awfully fat.

During Irving's suit vs. Lipstadt and Penguin, which is a delightful repository of well-documented and discussed evidence pro and con, the defense introduced German patent application T58240 for a "Continuous Operation Corpse Incineration Furnace for Intensive Use", applied for by Topf and Sons, and read into the record from an engineering report on the application: "After ... preheating the oven will not need any more fuel due to the heat produced by the corpses. It will be able to maintain its necessary high temperature through selfheating."

Also, try Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp by Israel Gutman, Michael Berenbaum, and Yisrael Gutman, where you can see the historical diagrams of the Topf double-muffle crematory furnace (page 193, photo on page 192), a diagram of Auschwitz crematorium I drawn Dec. 9, 1940 on the basis of Topf blueprint D, Nov. 30, 1940 (page 194), a diagram of the modification to that crematorium drawn Feb. 3, 1941 (page 195), etc. etc.

Auschwitz oven builders scrutinized at new Berlin exhibition

Thursday, July 21, 2005

BERLIN, July 21 - Hartmut Topf has spent a lifetime trying to comprehend why family firm Topf & Soehne agreed 64 years ago to build crematoria for Auschwitz and enable industrialized mass murder.

He knows there can be no satisfactory answer.

A new Berlin exhibition sheds light on Topf, one of countless largely forgotten small firms to provide the technical know-how for the Holocaust. It tries to trace why this eastern German furnace maker became entangled with the Nazis, despite sensing what the ovens were being used for.

Fresh archive evidence shows the brothers who ran Topf, cousins of Hartmut's father, were not fanatic Nazis and faced no personal risk for declining orders for furnaces from Hitler's elite SS guards.

Nor were they in it for the money. Crematoria and ventilation systems for the concentration camps comprised only two percent of their turnover, and the SS paid late.

Rather a picture emerges of a firm of meticulous technocrats, motivated by the "challenge" of perfecting and installing incinerators capable of burning thousands of corpses daily, and blinded by the detail to their moral crime.

"It is unthinkable," says 70-year-old Hartmut Topf.

"It makes me furious that these were my relatives . . . they were no anti-Semites, no evil Nazis. They were normal people, in a completely normal firm, which only makes it harder to understand," he adds.

A fifth of the 6 million Jews murdered during the Holocaust were killed at Auschwitz, along with homosexuals, Gypsies, Polish political prisoners and Soviet prisoners of war.

The Nazi death camps employed hundreds of contractors to provide equipment and expertise for the "Final Solution".

While the collaboration of German industrial giants such as IG Farben, which provided deadly Zyklon B for the gas chambers, is well documented, the role of smaller firms and the extent to which they escaped unpunished after World War Two has faded from view.

Loaded name

"I was proud as a child because Topf was a successful, world-renowned firm," Hartmut Topf explains.

This pride evaporated when as an 11-year-old he watched footage of the camps in cinema newsreels, and saw the "Topf" name plaque, borne by all the firm's products, on the crematoria of Auschwitz and Buchenwald.

Later Topf determined to establish the details and atone for the past.

"I went to Auschwitz and greeted an old man there, telling him my name was Topf. 'Your name has a bad ring here,' he told me. 'I know. That is why I am here,' I answered."

Topf & Sons was founded by Hartmut's great-grandfather in 1878, in Erfurt, as a customized incinerator and malting equipment manufacturer. The firm was close to the Ettersberg hill, later the site of Buchenwald concentration camp.

With the expansion of cremation in Germany as a burial rite in the 1920s, the firm's ambitious chief engineer Kurt Prüfer pioneered furnaces which complied with strict regulations on preserving the dignity of the body.

Naked flame could not come in contact with the coffin, and cremation was to be smoke and odour free.

Aware of the firm's reputation, the SS approached Prüfer in 1939, with an order for a crematorium for Buchenwald after an epidemic killed hundreds of prisoners.

Prüfer designed crematoria resembling incinerators for animal carcasses, knowing the dead were not to be burned individually or in coffins, nor were ashes to be separated.

The orders came rolling in, as Prüfer strived to create more efficient furnaces. Firm documents in the exhibition prove he visited Auschwitz several times and saw his ovens close to "the bathhouses for special operations".

Rather than feel disgust, Prüfer merely deliberated the practical problems of extermination. Transcripts of his 1948 interrogations by Russian forces show he never felt remorse.

"Prüfer threatened to resign at one point over lack of salary, they (Ernst-Wolfang and Ludwig Topf) should have let him go . . . but they didn't. They continued to show this stupid loyalty to the regime," Topf says.

After the Nazis abandoned Auschwitz in 1945 Prüfer even suggested to the SS they could reassemble parts of the furnaces in Mauthausen concentration camp in Austria.

"It sends shivers down my spine," Topf adds.

Aftermath

Topf name plates on the ovens couldn't have made it easier for the Allies to trace the firm.

The Americans released Prüfer after a few weeks, but once the Soviets arrived in Erfurt he was sentenced to 25 years and died in 1952 in a Russian gulag.

Ludwig Topf killed himself in May 1945, claiming his innocence in a jumble of excuses left in a suicide note.

His brother Ernst-Wolfgang fled to western Germany and was put on trial by the Americans. He talked his way out of the charges, maintaining the ovens were "innocent", and founded a new incinerator business, operating until bankruptcy in 1963.

He even tried unsuccessfully to secure a patent for a "monster four-storey" furnace designed during the war, Hartmut Topf explains.

"There was no historical insight at the time. Only excuses and pleas that people could have done nothing else. It makes me sick."

Today, Topf & Sons former Erfurt premises stand empty and dilapidated. The firm was nationalized by the Communists and survived until 1996. Authorities plan to buy the site and set up a permanent exhibition and memorial.

Gzuckier 18:47, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems there is a bit of confusion on historical argument here. One question is whether human fat as fuel is an efficient fuel or not--this is in part a technical issue, and frankly, of limited interest here. It may be interesting only in conjunction with the analysis of other fuels. But what is important is whether it was believe at the time of the Holocaust that fat could help in the burning of bodies, whether practices consistent with this belief were put in place in the crematoria, and whether the witnesses and documentation corroborate the *existance* of these practices. And, as far as I know, it was, they were, and they do.--Ninarosa 19:36, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

60 minutes

60 minutes said that 17.5 million were killied in the holocaust and since 60 minutes knows what they are talking about it should be changed

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/14/60minutes/main2267927.shtml

Rollaround 09:39, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I thought the number was 6 million. 60 Minutes is getting off the reservation, no? 159.105.80.219 14:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The records show 17.5 million people killed in the holocaust and out of those 6 million had some hebro connection that is where the origianl 6 million comes from that is what the nazies own records show that now have beome avalible for all people to read, beofre only people with permision were able to read. Rollaround 15:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The report says that the documents "hold the records of 17 million victims", including slave labourers, political prisoners etc. Among them, it states, are the people who worked in Schindler's factory. Of course, we know they survived, so the 17 million is not the number of deaths, merely the number of people whose names are recorded in the documents, many of whom survived. Paul B 17:06, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I saw the show anyone can see it 17.5 million is the numbers of DEATHS, stop trying to white wash the nazi crimes. Rollaround 11:30, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Whitewash the Nazi crimes? Excuse me??? "Anyone" can't see from the link you provided that 17.5 million is the number of deaths. I did not see the show, but the site you posted makes it absolutely clear that the number refers to the people who are listed in the documents. In any case, not all deaths in the war were the result of the holocaust. It's also clear from the comments posted on the site that the show was not very accurate in several respects. Paul B 11:37, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

What some poster writes on the internet page about the show does not matter, all that matters is what they said on 60 minutes which unlike you and any other person has a burden of proof if they were to say a lie then they would be sued and they would lose their license, if you read real history books you can see that the numbers are correct. 60 minuts has real reporters and can dig up real information. The number 17.5 million is of who died in the holocaust. Do not forget that the total civilian losses of Poland was 6 million and the Soviet Union 20 million plus around 10 million military dead so 17.5 million dying in the holocaust is a very correct number Rollaround 11:47, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Please read some books. 60 minutes is not a very authoritative source. Historians take priority over TV journalists. Paul B 12:34, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Rollaround, just be careful. The 6 million figure for Poland does include 3 million Polish Jews. There is some overlapping here. I think the Nikzor Project mentions something around 11 million (6 million Jews and 5 million non-Jews). Most historians believe that this number of 5 milion non-Jews is quite a low estimate (specially considering Russia), so 17 million is not too far from an acceptable figure, regarding orders of magnitude. The problem, however, is to define WHO is a victim of the Holocaust. If it is only civilians, then the soviet soldiers who were gassed in the camps would not be included? Should we include the Russian peasants who starved when the Germans invaded? Or were those only civilian victims of conventional war, as it happened in previous wars? Historians tend to very careful in general estimates for this reason. I think if we can find a written source for a 17.5 number of deaths, it could be included, provided that the text makes clear it is an estimate, and mentions the problems of quoting any figure.Ninarosa 06:54, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

If Jews make up 6 million then the Holocaust was primarily a nonJewish operation. I thought - have read - that it was primarily to exterminate Jews - were there other Wannsee type directives to exterminate other groups?

I do not know, due to my ignorance, of existence of any Wannsee Conference type documents, but, off the top of my head, the following groups faced total extermination as well: Roma (gypsies), homosexuals, communists, people with mental deficiencies, etc. Also, a whole family of ethnicities, namely Slavs, were considered "Untermenschen" (sp?) and were often discriminated, conscripted for Slave labor, cleansed, etc. Goliath74 21:17, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

among those, however, the Jews were the larger singular group, and the propaganda associated to them makes the Jewish, the Roma and the people with mental deficiencies, very central to the idea of the Holocaust. There are the documents for the T4, with directive to eliminate people with mental deficiencies, and there were documents agains the Roma, as well.Ninarosa 06:54, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting comment above - "historians take priority over". Does science take precedence over historians? If something is shown to be scientifically impossible can it be historically accurate?

Citations.

Hello all. I've recently checked out a book about the Holocaust and have been using information to cite anything I can find. However, I'd like to ask a question.Please see the Experiments section, the last sentence. It lists a bunch of concentration camps that once were not cited, but I already did. However, in my book, it did not state specifically in the book those camp names, but it did say so in the Index section of the book. Simply, the camps weren't majorly stated (as in their own articles in the books, only in small excerpts, such as timelines). See, let's use Dachau as an example:

Dachau (Germany)

concentration camp 119,

138, 144, 191, 193, 495

555-56, 665, 696

administration tried, 634
bread distributed at, 634
commandant of, 428
Communists sent to, 59
corpses in, 609

.....and it goes on and on. So, what I'm asking is... are those cites okay? Again, they do come out in the index. But they are not stated majorly as in their own pages and stuff, just mentioned in those pages above (for example, page 119 is mentioned in a section about a Jew named Martin Niemöler who was sent to concentration camps like Dachau and Sachenhausen). Thanks in advance. Uh, I hope I haven't overwhelmed you with questions or confused you, I just want to know whether I'm doing the right thing or not. Cheers! --♥Tohru Honda13♥ 01:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

color photo of corpses??

in the victims section of this article, there is a photo of a pile of corpses. i was just wondering if color photography was available at the time--STANE 02:34, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Stane,click on the image. It is not exactly a color photography, but comes from "a historical political poster, button, flier or banner". Probably the color was added later. But I agree that there should be a reference.Ninarosa 07:48, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The Babi Yar photo - I clicked the photo and was surprised to see what I had thought to be a photo of bodies - bad eyesight - was actually what appeared to be sorted piles of clothing. Any info on this photo? The background seemed to be ambiguous. No way to place it by landmarks that I could see.

This photo looks fake to me, added for effect. Only other place I have seen this photo is on encyclopediadramatica. Saintrotter 26 January 2007

More Maths

The 6,000,000 total dead in German-run concentration camps is a combination of Jews, Germans, Gypsies, Homosexuals, etc. It is not accurate to assume all 6M were Jewish. I think the article should reflect this information. Unfortunately, I don't think there will ever be an exact total for the carnage of WWII. Rough estimates will always have to be pulled in and analyzed and a "best guess" prepared. As such, we shouldn't rush to forget the other peoples who died. Please advise before I change the article--Legomancer 04:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

• What part of the article are you proposing to change? --jpgordon 07:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

It did happen!

It is a globaly documented fact, in both film, books, photos and eye-witness accounts; so it can't be dined! The holocaust did happen! --Lilidor 05:17, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

So is the Loch Ness Monster. Saintrotter 27 January 2007