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Willie H. Fuller

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Willie H. Fuller (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Fails WP:BASIC. Another non-notable Tuskegee Airmen created by the same User (indeffed for copyvio). First 2 sources are CAF Rise Above, a user contributed site so not RS. 3) is just a passing mention in a photo caption. 4) Aviation Online magazine is of questionable reliability and doesn't seem to have been updated since 2017. 5) Troup County sounds reliable but no link or title was given and I can't find anything on searching the site. 6) Getty Images is just a photo. Finally Christian Science Monitor is RS but this is not substantial coverage and just based on an interview with the subject. WP:NOTINHERITED applies here, just belonging to a notable unit/organisation does not confer notability on all its members. A Google search shows his name in a few Tuskegee Airmen books but these are just photo captions or lists with no in depth detail Mztourist (talk) 03:24, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Mztourist (talk) 03:24, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

• Delete non-notable airman, fails GNG. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:29, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
• Keep Another notable Tuskegee airman for whom we have plenty of biographical details and sources so that they easily pass WP:BASIC. Andrew🐉(talk) 14:12, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of North Carolina-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 18:21, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

• Delete The majority of the sources are not RS. Doesn't meet GNG. Intothatdarkness 22:26, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
• Delete as uncontroversial housekeeping. The sources are not reliable (CAF Rise Above) or in-depth, and the coverage is just WP:ROUTINE career progress. Avilich (talk) 20:35, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
• Delete Sourcing is unreliable and even then it really just establishes that the subject was an ordinary member of a well known military unit. Best, GPL93 (talk) 22:01, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
• Keep notable Tuskegee airman and was awarded the Congressional Gold Medal 2007. Notable airman based on wartime contribution and their historic integration of the U.S. Army Air Corp. Lightburst (talk) 02:20, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Congressional Gold Medals awarded to groups do not confer notability for individuals. By that logic each of the 200,000 WWII era members of the Civil Air Patrol would merit an article. Best, GPL93 (talk) 03:17, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. Lightburst (talk) 04:06, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

• Delete - being a member of the Tuskegee Airmen is laudable and honorable, but not notable. Currently, none of the keep arguments are actually based on policy. Onel5969 12:48, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

• My position is based upon numerous policies including WP:ATD, WP:NOTPAPER and WP:PRESERVE – three separate policies. It's the deletion side of the argument which is not based on policy, being based mostly on WP:N, which is not a policy, with a big dash of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Andrew🐉(talk) 15:55, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Your position should be based on a review of the sources which you notably haven't done. As you know WP:N is a guideline, do you really think it shouldn't be followed? There is no IDONTLIKEIT in my nomination or any of the other deletion arguments. Mztourist (talk) 03:13, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Comment The deletion rationale fails to outline a policy reason for deletion: WP:NOTINHERITED is not based on policy - it is an essay. Policies include: WP:PRESERVE and WP:ATD. Additionally the fact that the author was "indeffed for copyvio" has nothing to do with the notability of this subject. The information is only provided in the rationale to Poison the well. For my own keep rationale: I refer to the notability guideline WP:ANYBIO and I see that the subject passes 1 and 2 easily. 1. The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor ✅, or has been nominated for such an award several times; 2. The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in a specific field ✅ Lightburst (talk) 16:57, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

A unit award does not satisfy #1 of ANYBIO which is for individual awards. He was one of a group that made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in a specific field, so #2 of ANYBIO isn't satisfied either. Mztourist (talk) 03:11, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Are you seriously claiming that WP:NOTINHERITED should be ignored, and that notability can be inherited?

NOTINHERITED is a long-respected summary of policies that have a long-standing consensus. If your position depends on ignoring it, that's not a strong position. ApLundell (talk) 15:54, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

ApLundell Read the five pillars WP:5Ps - not one single mention of essays. And then look at WP:N which is the guideline we apply. Here is what our project says about WP:ESSAYS: Essays have no official status, and do not speak for the Misplaced Pages community as they may be created and edited without overall community oversight. Following the instructions or advice given in an essay is optional. Regarding established consensus see WP:CCC (also a policy) - consensus can change. I am following the guidelines regarding this subject, please have another look at the article - I did work on it. Lightburst (talk) 23:06, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

• Keep notable Tuskegee airman. Irrelevant whataboutism and Ad hominem arguments. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:23, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

As you know notability is determined by sourcing which this page lacks. Explain your whataboutism and Ad hominem comments. Mztourist (talk) 03:11, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

As you know, notability is not determined by the sourcing on the page. here. And this is not the article it was when proposed for deletion, either.

First black flight instructor at Tuskegee Airmen.7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:38, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

I do not regard the references that you have added as substantial, generally they are passing mentions at most 1-2 sentences. You haven't explained your whataboutism and Ad hominem comments. Mztourist (talk) 05:26, 25 September 2021 (UTC)\

"Another non-notable Tuskegee Airmen created by the same User (indeffed for copyvio)" If you can't figure it out, explaining it further won't work either. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 03:56, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

So just a distraction to avoid addressing the lack of sourcing then, got it. Mztourist (talk) 06:41, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

You are the one who interjected fallacious irrelevancies (in your lead), just to confuse the real issues. 7&6=thirteen (☎)16:41, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

"Keep because notable" is not much of an argument either. -Indy beetle (talk) 23:30, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Ironically, we have been through an infinite number of soldiers who were the namesake of destroyers. And the argument is that there accomplishments mattered naught. Meets WP:GNG. That is a WP:Notability argument. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 00:23, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

All those soldiers were deleted because they failed BASIC and having a minor ship named for you in WWII isn't a basis for notability. The same applies here, this Tuskegee Airman fails BASIV and is not individually notable. Mztourist (talk) 04:39, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

• Selective Merge into Tuskegee Airmen. The nominator's analysis of the sources is correct, of course, and shows that the subject isn't covered in depth in reliable secondary sources. I think the one sentence about Fuller facing racism from a bigoted hotel manager is a good example that could be incorporated into the Tuskegee Airmen section about racism. But there's nothing else keepable in any form. Reyk _YO! 19:13, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

• Delete - fails to get enough coverage in independent reliable sources. -Indy beetle (talk) 21:49, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

• Keep http://avstop.com/history/tuskegeeairmen/part5.htm Willie H. Fuller was one of the original members of the 99th Pursuit Squadron He was a pilot instructor at the Tuskegee Air Base that helped mold the pilots known as the Tuskegee Airmen into a fighting unit which performed admirably in the European theatre of World War II. Dream Focus 20:19, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

I addressed that reference in my nom: "Aviation Online magazine is of questionable reliability and doesn't seem to have been updated since 2017". Mztourist (talk) 05:30, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Seeing as Willie died in 1995, I cannot imagine why this would be relevant to a magazine article about things that happened in the 1940s. Moreover, I am not aware of any guidelines saying that sources must be updated on a yearly basis in order to be reliable; this seems like a non sequitur at best. jp×g 00:03, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

• Selective Merge/Redirect into Tuskegee Airmen.4meter4 (talk) 00:53, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
• On balance, keep. I think ANYBIO can potentially apply here due to recent improvements and his enduring contribution to the Tuskegee Airmen.Yabunirami (talk) 08:24, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
• Keep per above comments. Waddles 🗩 🖉 16:27, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comment why is a non-admin (RandomCanadian) pontificating and relisting a contested/no consensus AfD? The article has evolved and information about this Airman's role was updated. However, a non-administrator making an administrative decision like this is controversial and therefore not-allowed on the project. Lightburst (talk) 22:52, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

  Lightburst, if your only complaint is that I'm not an admin; then that is irrelevant, since admins do not have any special status as far as closing or relisting discussion goes. See "Closures (or relistings) will rarely be changed by either the closing editor or a closure review: 2. if the complaint is that the closer is not an admin.". This warrants a relist; since there is no clear consensus and not all options have been fully explored. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:06, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

The general rule is if it is controversial - leave it to an admin. You are an editor and you are not elected to preside over any contested decisions - especially when you extended your comments acting as if you are Solomon. You are not are even allowed to close a contested AfD discussion - yet you say... I cannot impose one option above the other. You will need to either have the community elect you as an admin, or stick to WP:SNOW keeps and deletes. This was a controversial relist - but it may not have been without your extended comments and pontification. I will be done commenting on this AfD now. Lightburst (talk) 00:41, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, your interpretation of that is fundamentally at odds with WP:NOBIGDEAL (the mere fact of "being an admin" does not grant anyone additional prestige or authority in matters which do not require admin tools, such as relisting or closing an AfD when the result is not "delete") and usual practice (i.e. not being an admin does not restrict anybody to SNOW closes - there are plenty of examples in AfD logs of discussions which are controversial to some extant closed by non-admins; and here I didn't even close it, I just relisted, since this was a few days already beyond the point which it should have been relisted or closed, nobody had bothered to do it, and there was no clear outcome). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 01:05, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

WP:NACPIT point 4 suggests non-admins are not barred from relisting discussions. Reyk _YO! 10:15, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Those interested in the ultimate result of the above side-discussion can look at Special:Permalink/1047863194#RandomCanadian_administrative_actions. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:01, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

• Comment Having read over some of the discussion listed at list of Military-related deletion discussions the author appears to be very focused on deleting articles about Tuskegee Airmen. The format seems to be: Another non-notable Tuskegee Airmen followed by any type of issue that could lead the article being deleted. With so many articles needing attention, the active drive to only focus on deleting articles is concerning. Adam MLIS (talk) 23:58, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

  Nominating an article for deletion because it has an "issue that could lead to the article being deleted" seems fairly regular operating procedure. If the article can be improved; by addressing the nominator's concerns; that would be a very strong argument for keeping, and will probably lead to the next person who wants to close this discussion in a week's time having a far easier job than me. Merely being concerned that there is a "drive to only focus on deleting articles" is not a particularly good reason, nor does it address the concerns about the suitability of this article. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:04, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

  Adam MLIS by "author appears to be very focused on deleting articles about Tuskegee Airmen" I assume that you are referring to me. I am very focussed on deleting pages where the subject fails BASIC. If you look at all the pages created by the User:Bluecountrymutt, you will see that I have gone through all of them, cleaned up and improved many of them and identified those that I believe fail BASIC and then PRODed and/or AFDed those. Mztourist (talk) 11:57, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

  Hey Adam MLIS, a very gentle reminder to WP:AGF. The nominator has contributed substantively to the Tuskegee Airmen page and to pages on individual airmen; let's keep the discussion focused on whether the article subject has received WP:SIGCOV, a topic on which reasonable people working in good faith can disagree. Thanks! Suriname0 (talk) 17:38, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

• Comment These articles came from a CCI investigation, which I've linked to before in the hopes of generating some cleanup interest: Misplaced Pages:Contributor_copyright_investigations/Bluecountrymutt. Oddly, slugging it out at AfD seems to be much more interesting for many. These articles often share common issues: copyright violations, reliance on a handful of poor (and often non-RS) sources (CAF and related sites being the most common), and inherited notability (the person is assumed to be notable because they belonged to a notable unit). The question of reliance on non-RS sources is often dodged. Some of these individuals are notable, and their articles have been kept. Others are not once you get past the unit affiliation issue. Intothatdarkness 00:18, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

darkness Read it again please. It is not the article it was when nominated. I hope you take another look - I and others have spent much time updating the article with RS. The person has significance. However, I have really said enough in this AfD - and rather than do a drive-by or slug it out at AfD I have been working on the article daily. Lightburst (talk) 00:41, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

I have looked at the article...not less than an hour ago in fact. I don't agree that it's improved significantly, but that's not due to a lack of work and effort on your part (and others). It's because there simply isn't much to work with. If there was, we wouldn't need to rely on CAF at all...yet it still lingers in the article. And I still think it's better to get to these articles before they reach AfD...which is why I keep posting the CCI list link and have worked some of those articles myself. Intothatdarkness 01:43, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

And I just corrected misattributed information in the article lede...which was part of the original article as created by the banned CCI individual. THIS is why it's better to hit these articles as part of the CCI cleanup as opposed to now. You have to check pretty much every existing source in addition to adding new ones (if they exist). Intothatdarkness 17:19, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

• Keep - Finally having time to look at this article, I believe the subject meets WP:GNG, with sigcov in the Cooper book and the Christian Science Monitor article (both cited), in addition to other scattered mentions. Contrary to the nom, the CSM article looks like significant coverage to me, and it appears that editorial oversight and selective quoting were applied (i.e. it's not "just an interview" and should be treated as a secondary source). Suriname0 (talk) 16:50, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

• Comment The content from CSM and Boy's Life is almost identical. Fuller's coverage in CSM amounts to three brief paragraphs including a single generic post-war anecdote, none of which in my view establish him as being notable beyond being a Tuskegee Airman. His individual military notability still appears to be based solely on Tuskegee. Intothatdarkness 22:23, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

• Keep - Yes, this is sufficient sourcing to pass WP:N. The keep voters are providing a more convincing argument. For many years, he was the only black flight instructor in his field, and he was recognized for his services both contemporaneously and in recent decades. Patiodweller (talk) 23:41, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

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