| Revision as of 04:20, 25 October 2021 editMztourist (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users72,242 edits →Herbert V. Clark← Previous edit | Revision as of 22:08, 27 October 2021 edit undoPatiodweller (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,048 edits KEEPNext edit → | ||
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| ::::::I will ask you not to remove RS information. If you leave the reference you cannot erase other items from that reference. And your requirement of 2 sources for each fact in the article is not a requirement. If it is a reliable source - all the information is reliable. At the moment I am the only one working on the article. I am going to reinstall the information and ask you not to erase it to favor your desire to delete. ] (]) 04:03, 25 October 2021 (UTC) | ::::::I will ask you not to remove RS information. If you leave the reference you cannot erase other items from that reference. And your requirement of 2 sources for each fact in the article is not a requirement. If it is a reliable source - all the information is reliable. At the moment I am the only one working on the article. I am going to reinstall the information and ask you not to erase it to favor your desire to delete. ] (]) 04:03, 25 October 2021 (UTC) | ||
| :::::::I have raised this on the Talk page but will respond here also. The source I provided was prepared by Dr. Daniel L. Haulman at the Air Force Historical Research Agency in January 2008. Clark isn't listed there as scoring a single aerial victory. Meanwhile you claim that Encyclopedia of Arkansas should be relied on for the claim that Clark scored a BF 109 kill. I don't agree, Air Force records are more reliable than Encyclopedia of Arkansas on this point. You state that my "requirement of 2 sources for each fact in the article is not a requirement", where did I say that? We have two completely conflicting claims, Either he did shoot down a BF 109 or he didn't. Find a better source for the BF 109 kill because Encyclopedia of Arkansas is wrong on this point. ] (]) 04:20, 25 October 2021 (UTC) | :::::::I have raised this on the Talk page but will respond here also. The source I provided was prepared by Dr. Daniel L. Haulman at the Air Force Historical Research Agency in January 2008. Clark isn't listed there as scoring a single aerial victory. Meanwhile you claim that Encyclopedia of Arkansas should be relied on for the claim that Clark scored a BF 109 kill. I don't agree, Air Force records are more reliable than Encyclopedia of Arkansas on this point. You state that my "requirement of 2 sources for each fact in the article is not a requirement", where did I say that? We have two completely conflicting claims, Either he did shoot down a BF 109 or he didn't. Find a better source for the BF 109 kill because Encyclopedia of Arkansas is wrong on this point. ] (]) 04:20, 25 October 2021 (UTC) | ||
| *'''Keep''' - I feel that this has enough reliable sources to pass the GNG. There are clearly several books and newspaper articles that refer to his contribution as one of the African-American pilots who flew combat missions. In particular, I'm sure that having an entry in the ''Encyclopedia of Arkansas'', plus a lot more information in its Tuskegee airmen article, proves notability. No thread at the reliable sources noticeboard has ever concluded this encyclopedia to be an unreliable source. Misplaced Pages guidelines should be similar to those of other encyclopedias, so the fact that Clark has an entry in another major encyclopedia is of great significance when it comes to notability. ] (]) 22:08, 27 October 2021 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 22:08, 27 October 2021
Herbert V. Clark
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Fails WP:BASIC. The last of the non-notable Tuskegee Airmen created by the same User (indeffed for copyvio) and dePRODed. Source 1 is CAF a User contribution site so not RS and doesn’t even mention him anyway. 2) a tabulation of aircraft losses, no detail about him other than confirming details of his shootdown. 3) the photo is widely published and is taken from the National Archives here: , but the National Archives caption doesn't contain any of the unreferenced detail in the blog (some of which is verified by other sources and some isn’t such as him leading a group of Italian resistance fighters) and so it is not RS. 4) this is a highly dubious source, it claims to be from a Boeing inhouse newsletter interview of his son, but I can't find an original copy and as its from a family member it is not independent. It contains a number of questionable claims including that he shot down 4 German planes, which I can’t confirm anywhere - strange as it would have made him the tied 2nd highest scoring Tuskegee airman. The claimed meeting with Eleanor Roosevelt is also unconfirmed anywhere else. As a result I am skeptical about all of it and think it should be disregarded. 5) Black Knights which I added is RS, but just confirms his class number. 6) Central Arkansas Library, RS but just a photo and one sentence, so no detail. 7) Tuskegee Airmen which I added is RS, but just states that he completed a tour in 1943. 8) The Tuskegee Airmen an illustrated history which I added is RS, but just confirms that he was shot down, evaded capture and eventually returned. There is also African Americans of Pine Bluff and Jefferson County which states that "Clark was shot down while flying over Germany on August 16, 1944. He evaded capture and led a small group of Italian partisans until he returned to the 99th on May 7, 1945." This is not supported by any reliable source, obviously he was shot down over Italy not Germany, presumably he didn’t speak Italian so its hard to see how he could have led a band of partisans. In accordance with WP:BEFORE I added several references after a Google search, but apart from that its all passing mentions. The sources accordingly do not meet WP:GNG as they don't amount to significant coverage as they don't address the topic directly and in detail WP:NOTINHERITED applies here, just belonging to a notable unit/organisation does not confer notability on all its members. The Tuskegee Airmen receiving the Congressional Gold Medal in 2006 doesn’t satisfy #1 of WP:ANYBIO and just being a Tuskegee Airman doesn’t satisfy #2 of ANYBIO. Mztourist (talk) 05:42, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Mztourist (talk) 05:43, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
- Delete Yet another poorly-sourced article about someone who would instantly fail BASIC if not for a unit affiliation which will lead people to argue otherwise. I'd support a merge of any RS information to a list of Tuskegee Airmen, but there isn't enough here to convey any sort of individual notability. Intothatdarkness 17:09, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Arkansas-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 20:17, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Notable Tuskegee airman - integration pioneer. I am working on the article - added items of interest and references. In the meantime WP:AFDNOTCLEANUP. This is a notable Tuskegee airman who easily passes WP:N and any problems are WP:SURMOUNTABLE. Lightburst (talk) 21:06, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
- He was one of the Jackie Robinson's of the segregated United States Armed Forces. There were a total of 932 pilots who graduated from the Tuskegee program. But only, 355 served in active duty during World War Two as fighter pilots. Clark was one of these 355. He also scored what was one of the first African American BF 109 kills - notable because the Tuskegee Airmen were mostly relegated to escort duty. We have room for such notable military. He returned and became a flight instructor. Lightburst (talk) 22:57, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
- This is the "all Tuskegee Airmen are notable"/INHERITED argument again. Nothing notable about him. Your "improvements" are minimal and don't add any new reliable sources. The one newspaper story you added is after he returned from his first tour. I have doubts about his one claimed Me109 kill and need to see a better source for this. Mztourist (talk) 03:16, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Disagree.(edit conflict) I added the Detroit Free Press - The Encyclopedia of Arkansas and other solid references. When a nominator has to type a 1000 word dissertation to obfuscate a deletion rationale, I think there is not a good reason to delete. And then there is that adhom in the rationale to poison the well - hoping to make the Herbert V. Clark article INHERIT the stain of the indeffed article starter. I will keep editing. I want to spend less time in the AfD, so I may not respond here. Nobody needs to see more over participation by me. Lightburst (talk) 03:38, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- You keep editing, but your sources are unreliable, this: confirms that he didn't shoot down a BF 109 as was stated in Encyclopedia of Arkansas (which was there originally). The "1000 word dissertation" is not "to obfuscate a deletion rationale" but to explain why the sources are so poor and dismiss spurious argument raised by you and others on the other Tuskegee Airmen AFDs. Mztourist (talk) 03:45, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- I will ask you not to remove RS information. If you leave the reference you cannot erase other items from that reference. And your requirement of 2 sources for each fact in the article is not a requirement. If it is a reliable source - all the information is reliable. At the moment I am the only one working on the article. I am going to reinstall the information and ask you not to erase it to favor your desire to delete. Lightburst (talk) 04:03, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- I have raised this on the Talk page but will respond here also. The source I provided was prepared by Dr. Daniel L. Haulman at the Air Force Historical Research Agency in January 2008. Clark isn't listed there as scoring a single aerial victory. Meanwhile you claim that Encyclopedia of Arkansas should be relied on for the claim that Clark scored a BF 109 kill. I don't agree, Air Force records are more reliable than Encyclopedia of Arkansas on this point. You state that my "requirement of 2 sources for each fact in the article is not a requirement", where did I say that? We have two completely conflicting claims, Either he did shoot down a BF 109 or he didn't. Find a better source for the BF 109 kill because Encyclopedia of Arkansas is wrong on this point. Mztourist (talk) 04:20, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- I will ask you not to remove RS information. If you leave the reference you cannot erase other items from that reference. And your requirement of 2 sources for each fact in the article is not a requirement. If it is a reliable source - all the information is reliable. At the moment I am the only one working on the article. I am going to reinstall the information and ask you not to erase it to favor your desire to delete. Lightburst (talk) 04:03, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- You keep editing, but your sources are unreliable, this: confirms that he didn't shoot down a BF 109 as was stated in Encyclopedia of Arkansas (which was there originally). The "1000 word dissertation" is not "to obfuscate a deletion rationale" but to explain why the sources are so poor and dismiss spurious argument raised by you and others on the other Tuskegee Airmen AFDs. Mztourist (talk) 03:45, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Disagree.(edit conflict) I added the Detroit Free Press - The Encyclopedia of Arkansas and other solid references. When a nominator has to type a 1000 word dissertation to obfuscate a deletion rationale, I think there is not a good reason to delete. And then there is that adhom in the rationale to poison the well - hoping to make the Herbert V. Clark article INHERIT the stain of the indeffed article starter. I will keep editing. I want to spend less time in the AfD, so I may not respond here. Nobody needs to see more over participation by me. Lightburst (talk) 03:38, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- This is the "all Tuskegee Airmen are notable"/INHERITED argument again. Nothing notable about him. Your "improvements" are minimal and don't add any new reliable sources. The one newspaper story you added is after he returned from his first tour. I have doubts about his one claimed Me109 kill and need to see a better source for this. Mztourist (talk) 03:16, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- He was one of the Jackie Robinson's of the segregated United States Armed Forces. There were a total of 932 pilots who graduated from the Tuskegee program. But only, 355 served in active duty during World War Two as fighter pilots. Clark was one of these 355. He also scored what was one of the first African American BF 109 kills - notable because the Tuskegee Airmen were mostly relegated to escort duty. We have room for such notable military. He returned and became a flight instructor. Lightburst (talk) 22:57, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - I feel that this has enough reliable sources to pass the GNG. There are clearly several books and newspaper articles that refer to his contribution as one of the African-American pilots who flew combat missions. In particular, I'm sure that having an entry in the Encyclopedia of Arkansas, plus a lot more information in its Tuskegee airmen article, proves notability. No thread at the reliable sources noticeboard has ever concluded this encyclopedia to be an unreliable source. Misplaced Pages guidelines should be similar to those of other encyclopedias, so the fact that Clark has an entry in another major encyclopedia is of great significance when it comes to notability. Patiodweller (talk) 22:08, 27 October 2021 (UTC)