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Merchandise giveaway nomination

A token of thanks Hi Jayjg! I've nominated you (along with all other active admins) to receive a solstice season gift from the WMF. Talk page stalkers are invited to comment at the nomination. Enjoy! Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}}  ~~~~~

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:50, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you! Jayjg 19:08, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Menetrez

If you are going to reply to an archive, Ill reply here. Menetrez's column is not an article in CounterPunch. What is cited is in a book published by University of California Press. That is what David removed. The idea that Menetrez's critique of the situation isnt notable is a, irrelevant (it only matters if it has weight, not if it is notable), and incorrect. Menetrez's analysis itself is covered in other sources, it is itself a reliable source, and being a red linked biography doesnt really change that. I dont really understand how people, including you, are just blithely ignoring that sources that are not deprecated are being tossed aside because of the careless editing, or that there very clearly is edit-warring occurring (and no, nobody claimed a BLP exception). Anywho, hope you enjoyed your holidays, and if youd like to be informed when a case is filed on this as an interested party Id be happy to do so. nableezy - 23:32, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

{{u|Nableezy}: Yeah, I was writing the response and doing a bunch of other things, and when I finally hit "Publish changes", the section had been closed. Anyway, Menetrez's critique was originally published on CounterPunch; that's what Dershowitz was responding to. If the subsequent publication in the UC Press is not identical to that original article, then we don't have Dershowitz's response at all, which is one of the arguments being made for keeping the "Dershowitz" CounterPunch article. If the UC Press source is identical to the CounterPunch article, then we are still faced with what I described as "neither of them being notable", which, in policy terms, translates to them being WP:UNDUE; I should have been more clear in terms of Misplaced Pages terminology. I haven't seen much evidence of "careless editing" so far as regards these removals; most of them were good edits, removing sources that did not add value to the articles in question, which was almost inevitable given the nature of the websites publishing them. These kinds of highly partisan sites provide little of value for Misplaced Pages as an encyclopedia, though I'm sure they provide interesting reading for those whose biases align with them.

In general, highly political articles attract bad article sourcing. By this I mean, rather than looking for the highest quality sources on the topic, instead editors with one POV/bias look for sources that support their POV, then editors with the opposite POV/bias look for sources to counter them, and we end up with a dog's breakfast filled with "he said, she said" political point-scoring. That appears to have happened when this part of the Dershowitz article was written, and efforts to rescue the deprecated source or undo this depreciation miss a very important point: the main purpose of deprecation is so that Wikipedians stop fighting to include specific unreliable sources.

In this sense deprecation is analogous to banning users. A certain kind of banned editor likes to come back to Misplaced Pages using a sockpuppet to make "good" edits, then fulminate when their "good" edits are reverted. "See", they say, "there was no reason to revert this edit, that was stupid", when they point they're actually trying to make is "See, there was no reason to ban me, those who did so are stupid". Defenders of the individual or the edits then get upset that "good" edits are being removed, while those removing the edits say "but this editor is banned!". WP:BMB was made policy to stop people from fighting about this; Misplaced Pages has decided this editor should not be on Misplaced Pages regardless of the quality of their edits, and Wikipedians removing those edits should not have to waste time defending their removals. Deprecated source ≅ banned editor.

As for "edit-warring", let's be honest: it was on both sides - the fact that you were there to back up Nishidani's reverts, or his yours, just means that you were able to divide the edit-warring between the two of you, as opposed to David Gerard, who did is on his own. Nobody came out of those disputes looking good. And to be even more honest, I don't think you would care if David wholesale or "carelessly" removed all citations to Breitbart News or VDare or most of the other deprecated sources; it's only when "your ox was gored" that you became concerned. Your issue is not with David's "careless editing", it's with CounterPunch's deprecation.

Anyway, time to get off the soapbox. I only edit intermittently these days, but will try to keep an eye on this issue as it develops, and I appreciate your offer to keep me informed. Thanks also for your kind wishes; I hope you too enjoyed your holidays, and have a wonderful 2022! Jayjg 19:00, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

No, it was not identical, he expanded the original CP essay in to a much longer one. I still dont understand how somebody can argue that Dershowitz is not entitled to defend himself, and Im honestly a bit stunned at how the turns tabled here with me defending Dershowitz's right to a defense here and you saying toss it. As far as deprecation and policy, I dont actually see what policy was ever approved to support this. And I do think the idea that 4 editors at RSN one time can ban a website from all articles to be absolutely insane (FPM), or 15 for that matter (CP-the Icewhiz and NoCal100 socks). Would I ever cite FPM? No, of course not. But how deprecation has turned RSN into a voting booth is absolutely bonkers to me. But Jayjg, this started, for me at least, over this article used in Edward Said. It is astonishing to me that anybody can claim it is not a reliable source. It is cited over and over by other sources, all of them giving credit to that article for uncovering the FBI surveillance of Said. And it is insane to me that people are removing what is the most authoritative source by the most qualified expert in that article. I have pretty high standards for sources, but here this is the very best source on the topic. And no, my issue is with both. I posted several diffs of David removing sources that are not deprecated. Totally ignored. David wouldnt even look before reverting. Totally ignored. Im still tempted to take this to ArbCom, will see though. nableezy - 19:15, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

May I but in here, just to state this.

I don't think you would care if David wholesale or "carelessly" removed all citations to Breitbart News or VDare or most of the other deprecated sources.'

I can understand how it might look like that, but the assumption is editors read everything. They don't. I haven't even examined the deprecated list, but all of the examples given in these CP discussions, -Breitbart, Daily Mail, VDare etc - I've never read them, and have only a name familiarity with the first two. I have read CP desultorily, when, visiting it once or twice a week, I run down the articles listed, and of names I recognize usually click on just one or two, and I have done so for 15 years. While I think the deprecation judgement a farcical kangeroo court/caught result, I can live with it, as long as 'generally' in 'generally unreliable' is respected. I don't even look at David's contributions to see what he is doing re CP. I respond only when one of his edit removals affects an article I have edited and have on my watchlist. I noted the other day one article I had on my watchlist, where he removed a CP source, and, examining the source removed, agreed that the wiki article suffered no damage, and left his edit untouched.Nishidani (talk) 20:13, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Soros/Shelby

Hi! I’m curious if you have anymore information on Gregory James Shelby? It only says he is an artist. 64.71.174.172 (talk) 05:46, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Would you be interested

in working on User:Doug Weller/Goyim Defense League? I think the network's recent activities have made it notable. Doug Weller talk 09:21, 18 January 2022 (UTC)