Talk:Mu'awiya I: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 19:50, 6 February 2022 editLoverofediting (talk \| contribs)81 edits →The intro: new sectionTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit← Previous edit		Revision as of 20:15, 6 February 2022 edit undoApaugasma (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers17,817 edits →The intro: replyNext edit →
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	The term “tide turned” is incorrect and baseless. Even after the siege of Constantinople the Arabs continued ruling parts of the once Byzantine Anatolia (such as Cilicia). Thus the Arabs were still ruling parts of Anatolia even after the siege and throughout Mu’awiyah’s rule lol ] (]) 19:50, 6 February 2022 (UTC)		The term “tide turned” is incorrect and baseless. Even after the siege of Constantinople the Arabs continued ruling parts of the once Byzantine Anatolia (such as Cilicia). Thus the Arabs were still ruling parts of Anatolia even after the siege and throughout Mu’awiyah’s rule lol ] (]) 19:50, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
			:{{re\|Loverofediting}} the ] read: "Externally, he engaged his troops in almost yearly land and sea raids against the Byzantines, including a ], though the tide turned against the Arabs toward the end of his reign and he sued for a truce." You removed "though the tide turned against the Arabs toward the end of his reign and he sued for a truce", citing you explanation above. However, the article itself contains the following, very well-referenced information:

			:{{blockquote\|Under Emperor Constantine IV (r. 668–685), the Byzantines began a counteroffensive against the Caliphate, first raiding Egypt in 672 or 673, while in winter 673, Mu'awiya's admiral Abd Allah ibn Qays led a large fleet that raided Smyrna and the coasts of Cilicia and Lycia. The Byzantines landed a major victory against an Arab army and fleet led by Sufyan ibn Awf, possibly at Sillyon, in 673 or 674. The next year, Abd Allah ibn Qays and Fadala landed in Crete and in 675 or 676, a Byzantine fleet assaulted Maraqiya, killing the governor of Homs. In 677, 678 or 679 Mu'awiya sued for peace with Constantine IV, possibly as a result of the destruction of his fleet or the Byzantines' deployment of the Mardaites in the Syrian littoral during that time. A thirty-year treaty was concluded, obliging the Caliphate to pay an annual tribute of 3,000 gold coins, 50 horses and 30 slaves, and withdraw their troops from the forward bases they had occupied on the Byzantine coast.}}

			:Do you have any ] that contradict this information and justify your removing a summary of it from the lead? <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 20:14, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Greek inscription from Syria

@Cplakidas:@FunkMonk: Is there any way that this image, File:Greek Muawiya inscription of Hammat Gader, 663 AD.png, could be permissible to use in this article? It is an inscription dating to 663, unique in that it's the only epigraphic evidence of Mu'awiya's rule in Syria, and the only time we see this caliph in a Greek inscription. I do not know the current whereabouts of the inscription, probably in the possession of the Israel Antiquities Authority, so near impossible for someone to photograph. The source of the picture is a 1981 article in the Israel Exploration Journal. Because it's so old, I wonder if it could also be considered two-dimensional and thus permissible. If not, any chance a Fair Use rationale would be successful? Your advice is appreciated. Al Ameer (talk) 16:32, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I think it's a bit of a borderline case, perhaps it should be brought up at the Commons copyright village pump, where the real experts roam... FunkMonk (talk) 17:32, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

@FunkMonk: Took your advice. As this is a low-relief or bas-relief image inscription, looks like it qualifies as two-dimensional. Al Ameer (talk) 17:33, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Good to hear! FunkMonk (talk) 17:36, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

We us straight apostrophe (') for both hamza and ayn in basic transcription

@Kwamikagami: please stop what you're doing. Site-wide convention is to use a straight apostrophe (') for both hamza and ayn in basic transcription. There's no need to change this article to another style and make it inconsistent with other articles. Please consider self-reverting. Thanks! ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 21:04, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I could see not using either if it's anglicized, like in "Hawaii" or "Quran", but why purposefully make it wrong? Esp. in a FA? But I'll stop. — kwami (talk) 21:09, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I think the original reason for this is that article titles are preferred to only contain straight apostrophes. From WP:TITLESPECIALCHARACTERS: various apostrophe(-like) variants (’ ʻ ʾ ʿ ᾿ ῾ ‘ ’), should generally not be used in page titles. A common exception is the simple apostrophe character (', same glyph as the single quotation mark) itself (e.g. Anthony d'Offay), which should, however, be used sparingly.

It seems to me that this has been interpreted to mean that hamzas and ayns are important enough to be represented in article titles (they are real consonants that significantly impact pronunciation), but not important enough to use something different from ' as advised by the MOS (most English speakers wouldn't know how to pronounce ayn anyway, and pronounce it in the same way as hamza, i.e. as a glottal stop). From there, articles themselves were probably made consistent with article titles: if the article title uses the straight apostrophe for hamza or ayn, then it would be weird not to do the same throughout the article. And so it came to be that we use straight apostrophe for both hamza and ayn throughout Misplaced Pages...

Now WP:TITLESPECIALCHARACTERS continues: If, exceptionally, other variants are used, a redirect with the apostrophe variant should be created. I think a good case could be made to actually allow using strict transliteration (see WP:MOSAR) in article titles (including not only ʿ for ayn and ʾ for hamza, but also ḥ ṣ ḍ ṭ ẓ ā ū ī) and turn the current article titles using basic ASCII and straight apostrophe into redirects. That would also be an incentive to use strict transliteration throughout articles, or at least to get the distinction between hamza and ayn correct in basic transcription. But unquestionably, a broader discussion should be had before we start implementing something like this. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 21:48, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

As pointed out by AhmadLX, we apparently have also fixed this convention in MOS:ISLAM: The characters representing the ayin (ع) and the hamza (ء) are not omitted (except when at the start of a word) in the basic form, both represented by the straight apostrophe (').

You also changed Qur'an to Quran in one instance. I guess we do have a convention of using Quran and Quranic rather than Qur'an and Qur'anic, though I'm not immediately finding anything about this beyond Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#Religions, deities, philosophies, doctrines. Not sure if I should change this, so leaving it open for comments on the talk page. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 01:46, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

The intro

The term “tide turned” is incorrect and baseless. Even after the siege of Constantinople the Arabs continued ruling parts of the once Byzantine Anatolia (such as Cilicia). Thus the Arabs were still ruling parts of Anatolia even after the siege and throughout Mu’awiyah’s rule lol Loverofediting (talk) 19:50, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

@Loverofediting: the summary in the lead read: "Externally, he engaged his troops in almost yearly land and sea raids against the Byzantines, including a failed siege of Constantinople, though the tide turned against the Arabs toward the end of his reign and he sued for a truce." You removed "though the tide turned against the Arabs toward the end of his reign and he sued for a truce", citing you explanation above. However, the article itself contains the following, very well-referenced information:

Under Emperor Constantine IV (r. 668–685), the Byzantines began a counteroffensive against the Caliphate, first raiding Egypt in 672 or 673, while in winter 673, Mu'awiya's admiral Abd Allah ibn Qays led a large fleet that raided Smyrna and the coasts of Cilicia and Lycia. The Byzantines landed a major victory against an Arab army and fleet led by Sufyan ibn Awf, possibly at Sillyon, in 673 or 674. The next year, Abd Allah ibn Qays and Fadala landed in Crete and in 675 or 676, a Byzantine fleet assaulted Maraqiya, killing the governor of Homs. In 677, 678 or 679 Mu'awiya sued for peace with Constantine IV, possibly as a result of the destruction of his fleet or the Byzantines' deployment of the Mardaites in the Syrian littoral during that time. A thirty-year treaty was concluded, obliging the Caliphate to pay an annual tribute of 3,000 gold coins, 50 horses and 30 slaves, and withdraw their troops from the forward bases they had occupied on the Byzantine coast.

Do you have any sources that contradict this information and justify your removing a summary of it from the lead? ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 20:14, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

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