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Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in an archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. Baristarim 20:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC) Archives: Discussions from 2004 The Drina Corps US resolution January – July 2005 August – December 2005 January – July 2006 August 2006 September 2006 October & November 2006 December 2006 January 2007

KarlXII/Osli73 - identity crisis resolved

I removed all text in this section. This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Srebrenica massacre article (see Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines). It is not the place to discuss the behaviour of other editors. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 01:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Jitse, deleting Opbeith's comments borders on censorship. Let him speak. There is tons of genocide denial garbage on these discussion pages that were never bothered to be deleted. I know you are trying to be objective and fair, but please understand that double standard has been exercised for too long on this politicized topic. Suddenly we see urge to call genocide deniers "critics" and people with "alternative views", etc. Why don't you go ahead and call Holocause deniers "critics" and people with "alternative views"? Go ahead, test it at Holocaust and Holocaust Denial pages. It's simply not going to happen. If you question facts (whether it's the fact that holocaust happened, or the fact that Srebrenica genocide happened) you are not only questioning - you are denying them. Why? Because during the process of questioning, these deniers also seek theories that will support their conclussions! They are not interested in objective analysys of events, as it has been evident for a long time on these discussion pages. Opbeith tried too many times to reasonably explain people many facts behind the genocide in Srebrenica; he has been careful enough to place things into proper perspective, avoiding taking any sides. He is extremely objective and reasonable individual and he is one of those people who thinks thoroughly before he answers anything. He is very sensitive about facts of the case and his valuable opinion should be preserved, and not deleted. If people are going to question that one plus one equals two, then they are denying fact of the equation. We do our best to reason with unreasonable, but so many times world depends on unreasonable individuals who simply refuse to think and continue their ways of genocide/holocaust, small and large scale massacre denials. To get back to the topic, I am contributing this document from the United States Congressional hearing on Srebrenica genocide. Please read it carefully http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/intlrel/hfa49268.000/hfa49268_0f.htm . Bosniak 08:30, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to act kindof mediator here; maybe it's mea culpa for the first deletion of personal exchanges, but things are heating up again. So, let me express several opinions and/or facts, in no particular order:

• WP:TALK states, among other things, "Keep on topic", "No personal attacks", and "Never post personal details", with the proviso "Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal". I am not accusing you, Opbeith, of incivility, but you did post analysis of your opponents' views and personal background on several occasions. While those weren't grossly off topic, I deem their removal by Jitse as justified.
• The section "too few opinions" is archived indeed:: Talk:Srebrenica massacre/Archive 11#Too few opinions by Laughing Man. I don't quite approve this act, as it had some things relevant to the article, but it also had some nasty hints at "yet another onslaught by the revisionist concert party", and the tag is not in the article anymore so the issue is moot anyway.
• To me, it was more or less clear from the start that KarlXII is Osli73 (which doesn't necessarily mean it was clear for all). He ultimately confirmed that himself, and admitted it was an error; KarlXII account is now blocked. End of story, please. He did employ some questionnable tactics (talk-much-then-edit-quickly) in the past, for which he has warned by the ArbCom. However, I didn't see that repeated recently.
• I also knew that Hadžija was Estavisti. Since he's gone, it hardly matters now.
• For the record, User:Evv has requested username change to User:Ev. He's not very active in this article (but he is in related ones); just that anyone doesn't get surprised again.
• I kind of understand your frustration, but, trust me, the recent exchange of low kicks here is far milder than many edit wars I've seen. I don't want to be sound cynical, but get a skin. Apart from some questionnable (but not entirely inappropriate) removal of talk page comments, I don't think anyone has insulted you or Fairview personally.
• In sum, while the events at this talk page weren't exactly the model behavior, they were well within acceptable limits (with the exception of User:Bosniak, who is likely on his way to be banned from this and related articles). I sympathize with his strong feelings about the matter, but see WP:TIGER.
• We're dealing with a sensitive topic here, obviously. But the article seems to have reached a relative stability and the remaining question is how much of "alternative views" have enough due weight to be included in the article. But the spirale of assuming bad faith won't lead us to the solution.

Duja► 08:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Duja, I know I'm verbose, so feel free to delete this after reading it (I'll delete it anyway after it's had a brief run). I'm not concerned for my own right of expression. What I am concerned about is the outcome of discussions on this page.

Let us be clear. The Secretary General of the United Nations pointed out that what followed the fall of Srebrenica was a tragedy that was shocking in its magnitude - not since the horrors of the Second World War had Europe witnessed massacres on this scale. What we are constantly arguing about at the Srebrrenica Massacre discussion page is exchanges in which that reality, its scale or its motivation are denied.

You talk about Bosniak being banned for breaking the rules of Misplaced Pages when he fights to defend the facts that substantiate that reality while you, Jitse and Laughing Man condone the use of multiple identities to challenge facts established in many authoritative sources.

Your original deletion removed an exchange which centred on Bosniak challenging the actions and views of individuals whose behaviour appeared to bear out his accusation of their partisan motives. .

"I am keeping my head cool, but it's ridicolous to explain things to "those" people over and over again. They simply don't listen, just like their leaders refused to listen. Their target has stayed the same - destruction of this article, just as was their target to destroy muslims of Bosnia during early 1990s." That's a sweeping condemnation but looking at the reality of what goes on here I don't see it as being too far off beam. The fact and details of genocide are repeatedly denied here. When those who engage in that process of denial are challenged they change their names and come back again.

Duja, I accept that you and Jitse have made your interventions in the interest of promoting harmonious discussion. Even though I felt there was a degree of misrepresentation in your initial deletion I accepted that your action wasn't unreasonable in terms of its effect. I'm willing to compromise in the interests of ensuring a reasonable forum for discussion on this page.

What I'm not willing to do is to negotiate the facts of atrocity. When I have raised the issue of other people's views (not their personal background as you claim - simply their views, expressed openly here or elsewhere) it has been with the intention of establishing the reality behind their interventions here after that reality has been denied or dissimulated.

Just go back and look at the sequence of events that led to my exchange with the name-switching individual with the blog (whose personal identity I did not compromise - I couldn't, I don't even know it - even though he made accusations against me and identified me). Go back and look at the identity changes evident here and judge for yourself what sort of pattern emerges.

It's disingenuous to pretend that there's no history here and unwarranted to describe the situation here as stable. Periods of intermittent quiet rarely last. The substance of the article is not yet agreed. There are points where a more specific wording would be justified. I, and I'm sure others too, hold back from making those changes because I have a limited amount of energy available to defend those changes from the inevitable reversions.

Your reference to the TIGER page is quite inappropriate. The analogy comparing Misplaced Pages to a natural history museum safeguarding a collection of type specimens was obviously made by someone with little understanding of the sociology of knowledge or the role of information in the world.

The reference there to Simon Wessely is instructive. Here is a very powerful man who has sought to establish his authority over a field of knowledge. His victims' efforts to challenge his authority are not always as measured as dispassionate third parties might like. So their personal experience is denied because it is inappropriately expressed. The powerless driven to despair are rendered even more powerless when the rational but unengaged administer the rules of civilised conduct in a way that protects those who know how to exploit them.

You're quite right no-one has insulted myself or Fairview360 personally. I don't think either of us cares a fig about personal comments made about us, I think we both have a sense of proportion regarding the relevant significance of our personal sensitivities and the enormity of the subject at issue.

I think you've simply missed the point. Both Fairview360 and I are angry at the way facts are disregarded and the truth is distorted. We both started out with a "skin" of reasonableness and a willingness to engage in discussion.

I watched Fairview360 have his skin abraded away by the wilful unreasonableness and deceit of those with whom he engaged. Now I've experienced the same sapping of my reserves of tolerance. But I'm certainly not going to "get a skin" in order to live with duplicity and accept moral equivalency.

--Opbeith 19:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Things have stabilized here. But it's probably just a matter of time before someone comes and starts posting questions that were already discussed probably over 1,000 times so far (e.g. Lewis Mackenzie, Diana Johnstone, Oric attack on Serb village of Kravica in which 11 civilians died, challenging numbers of dead, challenging UN conclussions, challenging numbers of missing, etc). Misplaced Pages admins did nothing to stop obvious unreasonablesness with members who kept pushing their revisionist points even when they were presented with ICTY judgments. I mean, it's laughable to call obvious genocide deniers with such polite names as "critics" or "alternative views". Come on. What Opbeith stood for is calling people their proper names. I have no problem with people questioning what happened in Srebrenica. Me and Opbeight have questioned Srebrenica events for many months, but instead of looking for answers that would support our conclussion, we looked for answers that were supported by ICTY judgements, UN Conclusions, Congressional Hearings, Human Rights Reports etc. There are generally two types of genocide deniers, (1) those who reference other revisionists to justify their conclussions, and (2) those who reference factual findings (e.g. ICTY judgements) by taking carefully selected judicial findings and placing them out of context to gain credibility. For example, there was a case when someone holding revisionist views abused ICTY findings by cutting and pasting one sentence out of context which stated that Naser Oric attacked Serb villages. The point of this abuse was to prove that Serbs were victims of Oric attacks and that Serbs somehow needed to revenge for those attacks. Of course, nobody mentioned that long before Oric attacked and killed 35 soldiers and 11 Serb civilians in Kravice village, Serb forces massacred hundreds of Bosniaks in other villages around Srebrenica, Foca, Bratunac, Zvornik, etc. And of course, nobody failed to study judgements long enough to bring a point that these Serb villages were in fact military bases. But Opbeith was there to point out:

In the proceedings against Naser Oric when the ICTY examined the attacks by Bosnian Muslim units under his control on various villages in the vicinity of Srebrenica it found that although there was no justification for the wanton destruction that took place in these villages, there was evidence in many cases of militarisation, military presence and provocative military action. In various villages referred to in the proceedings village guards received at least some military support. At the time of the attack on Ratkovic'i, Gornji Ratkovic'i and Duc(ic'i, a number of Bosnian Serb village guards were present. Although there was conflicting evidence the more convincing evidence suggested that at least some of those village guards underwent special military training and were relatively well-armed. The Trial Chamber did not exclude a military justification for the attacks on the villages.

In Bjelovac and Sikiric village guards received weapons and ammunition from the Bratunac Brigade of the VRS, and there was a Serb and Bosnian Serb military presence in the area. Weapons and ammunition were stored in Bjelovac, and positioned in between houses in Ložnicka Rijeka and Kunjerac. The school building of Bjelovac was used as a kitchen to feed passing Bosnian Serb fighters.

With particular reference to the attack on the villages of Kravica, Šiljkovici and Ježestica on 7 and 8 January 1993 - the Orthodox Christmas day attack - the Tribunal noted that throughout the summer of 1992, Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Muslims engaged in mutual fighting in the area of Kravica and Ježestica. The fighting intensified in December 1992 and the beginning of January 1993, when Bosnian Muslims were attacked by Bosnian Serbs primarily from the direction of Kravica and Ježestica. In the early morning of the 7 January Bosnian Muslims attacked Kravica, Ježestica and Šiljkovici. At the time of the attack a number of village guards were present. Convincing evidence suggested that the village guards were backed by the VRS and following the fighting in the summer of 1992 had received military support, including weapons and training. A considerable amount of weapons and ammunition was kept in Kravica and Šiljkovici. Moreover there was evidence that besides the village guards, there was Serb and Bosnian Serb military presence in the area.

http://www.un.org/icty/oric/trialc/judgement/ori-jud060630e.pdf "Prosecutor vs Naser Oric, Judgement". United Nations. 30 June 2006. paras. 590-676]

In these various instances the Tribunal while not excusing the actions of the units under Oric's control also described the wider context of conflict and military aggression in which those actions took place. The argument that seeks to explain away the Srebrenica Massacre as a spontaneous act of revenge often makes reference to a series of attacks on Serb villages and implicitly on Serb civilians by units under Oric's command in a way that ignores or underplays the militarisation of those villages and the provocative and retaliatory actions launched from them in the months and years before the final onslaught on Srebrenica

Opbeith was here to point many, many important facts, and he tried his best to reason with unreasonable. I must admit I lost control many times, and I admire Opbeith for being patient and having a thick skin. Both of us voice strong opposition to genocide denial. He is very sensitive to denials of human suffering. He's not just sensitive about Srebrenica, he is sensitive about Holocaust and genocide in Rwanda. He is kind, gentle, peace-loving human being, and as such, his views were not challenged properly. Instead of a fair debate, revisionists spat on his views, attacked his character, refused to even take into consideration his opinion, and to my shock - some admins even censored his opinion, which is reminiscent of islamic dictatorships and censorship police we can see in the Middle East.

And on a positive side, things have stabilized here, and let's hope they stay that way.

Bosniak 22:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

See my coment below, at the #disputed tag section —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Duja (talk • contribs) 09:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

disputed tag

Hi everyone, well looks like I won't be the most popular person for adding a disputed tag to this article! I promise to read all through the talk-page archives when I get the chance (have glanced at a few) but I have to at least say that I don't see how the ICTY can be considered an independent and supposedly reliable source, as many arguing against the 'revisionists' appear to claim. The ICTY is an institution set up by NATO, after all! And I would argue a tag at least directs readers to the talk-page archives. Also, in response to the argument that people disputing the facts are 'revisionists' because Holocaust deniers are, this doesn't follow. Surely by that logic, anyone who disputes anything (well, any alleged massacre, anyway) can be called a 'revisionist' (a very loaded term) by a person who agrees with it. Anyway, looking forward to reviewing the archives. Cheers everybody.

Oops, forgot to sign and date that. PS, for the record, I am open-minded about this topic -- I'm not convinced the sceptics/ 'revisionists' are correct by any means. But I do know some shocking lies were told about the Serbs by the Western media -- eg Slobodan Milosevic's 'Kosovo Field speech' was portrayed as a nationalist diatribe, when it was nothing of the sort! (This was reported accurately by Western media agencies at the time, but later distorted beyond recognition. See http://emperors-clothes.com/milo/milosaid.html for a discussion of this.)

Jonathanmills 04:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi. The ICTY was not set up by NATO; it was by the UN Security Council Resolution 827. And if I may be so blunt, what would you call people who dispute the facts? The massacre was not an "alleged" massacre (and I'm not saying at all that you are claiming that it didn't happen); it is a proven fact; it not simply an opinion. Calling those who deny the that a massacre took place; or who cite considerably lower numbers, like only 2,000 dead "alternative views" seems to seriously call into question the basic absolute facts of the article; that a massacre occured in Srebrenica. Gardenfli 08:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

"The ICTY was not set up by NATO; it was by the UN Security Council Resolution 827." Apologies; I should have said 'set up by the NATO powers'. But it was clearly put through the UN on the urging of the big powers in NATO. Moreover, they largely provided the funding, etc, and indeed have given indications as to how fully they are the ones behind the agenda: eg, see here: http://emperors-clothes.com/docs/tribdocs.htm

But the main point is that it is absolutely ridiculous to portray the ICTY, or the Western media organisations (given the appalling scale of distortion they were responsible for vis-a-vis Milosevic -- again, take a look at http://emperors-clothes.com/milo/milosaid.html) as somehow beyond question. And, having looked over some of the discussion archives here, (as well as the fact that most of the references in the actual article appear to be drawn from one of the above), it appears this is the assertion of those attacking the sceptics (to the point of calling them 'revisionists' and 'deniers', both thoroughly loaded terms.) So it is not a 'proven fact'; it is a contested fact. The 'controversial articles' listed provide more than enough evidence to at least cast some doubt on the official story (although, I say again, I have no particular view, as I wasn't there -- but I would venture to guess no one on this talk page was.) All that said, there is no good argument for removing my tag -- the fact is that pages and pages of talk-page archives clearly demonstrate that the factual accuracy and neutrality of this article are indeed disputed. I am thus replacing it. Jonathanmills 08:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

You are a sockpuppet. And you didn't read the article. So you cannot judge about the article if you didn't read it, and you are a sockpuppet. Emir Arven 10:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Jonathanmills, if you want to challenge the legitimacy of the ICTY, as anyone is free to do, rather than refer us to the opinions broadcast by the brightest and the best at emperors-clothes it might be more useful if you cited the opinions of some more authoritative legal minds. The ICTY was set up by the UN which as is often the case failed to come up with adeqaute resourcing.

As I understand it the ICTY is funded partly out of the UN's general budget and partly from voluntary funding by individual member nations. As far as I'm aware you're correct in saying that NATO member countries who are also members of the UN have helped find the necessary resources to allow it to proceed.

If the ICTY continues to receive funding out of the UN's general budget this would suggest to me that the UN has not withdrawn its confidence from the ICTY and is still happy to have the ICTY continue its work. If you want to convince me that the ICTY is in fact an unreliable authority you need to show me evidence of a substantial loss of confidence on the part of the UN's member states.

If you want to convince me that the ICTY is simply a NATO creature I think you also need to show me that voluntary funding has not been provided by other non-NATO countries.

And if you want to convince me that the ICTY findings lack legal substance you'll need to offer me some evidence that the body of informed opinion in the field of international law rejects them.

The ball's in your court. --Opbeith 22:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Since when is murdering 2000 people at once not a massacre? —Psychonaut 09:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The past discussion seems to revolve around namecalling of "alternative"/"revisionist"/"denial" views. The general problem is that those views come by multiple people with a variety of motives, some of good faith, some of political agenda, and some of hatred. But I don't think that the relevant ones deny the scale of massacres, and putting them all under "genocide denialist" label is a) likely unfair b) dangerous. Some of those raise legitimate concerns, some less so. My general attitude (which doesn't have anything with any sort of revisionism of mine) is that we should avoid ugly namecalling and let the readers reach their own conclusions. Call it "overt political correctness" if you like, but see also WP:BLP: thus, I don't mind "alternative" or "sceptic", less so "revisionist", and I fail to see any actual relevant "denialist" view. Here's an interesting reading: (ad nauseam: I don't provide it because I endorse it, just because it gives an overview of additional sceptic views). Duja► 10:24, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Duja, you miss the point in dismissing the issue as one of namecalling. The article had a section "Denial of the massacre, revisionism and scepticism". You seem confident in your understanding of what has gone on here in the recent past so it puzzles me that you are describing what has happened as "putting them all under the heading of "genocide denialist"".

You say that you don't see any actual relevant "denialist" view when there has just been a lengthy exchange here on the subject of Lewis MacKenzie's view that happened could not have been genocide - which he expressed over a year after the Appeals Chamber of the ICTY had considered the line reasoning that he advanced and had confirmed that genocide under the terms of the Genocide Convention had taken place.

We have recently had the argument put forward at some length that the man on the street has a different view of genocide and so the rulings of the ICTY and the text of the Genicide Convention can be legitimately disregarded.

You say that the relevant views don't deny the scale of "massacres" when MacKenzie's downward revision of the figure accepted by the ICTY is repeatedly cited and only a month or so ago someone was claiming that only 2000 people had been killed.

Your analysis substantially misrepresents what has been going on here. It's not namecalling, it's not a game. And I'm puzzled as to your purpose in posting a link to a page that contains a ragbag of many of the "alternative views" points that have been dealt with here already - including the view that"What happened in Srebrenica was not a single large massacre of Muslims by Serbs, but rather a series of very bloody attacks and counterattacks over a three year period which reached a crescendo in July of 1995." What exactly are you trying to say with all this?

--Opbeith 11:16, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, we seem to talk past each other. I don't see how I "misrepresent what was going here", when you can see for yourself that 90% of edits in the article and 90% of talk page space were devoted to the section currently called "alternative views", and most of it was how to phrase those views. As for my statement that "no-one seriously suggested 2000 as the figure", I see I was wrong and I retract that, although you'll agree that MacKenzie just questions the total death toll not-really-suggesting 2000 as the figure. Nowhere did I say or hinted that it was a game either (nor I think it is), nor I have any intention to play with numbers.
As for the link I provided, I already wrote the disclaimer; sorry, I don't feel compelled to write a 100-word sentence "this-is-the-view-of-some-people-but-it-doesnt-have-anything-to-do-with-my-opinion" next to every sentence of mine. I provided it in good faith, in case anyone wishing to expand or clarify that section can find some material for research and/or see what we're talking about (what are we talking about, btw?). I don't think that "The Revisionist" is a reliable source and I don't plead by any means to include that in the article; it does quote some people which might be relevant though.
But, can we stay on topic, please? Is the phrase "Alternative views" acceptable (I'm not too happy with it, either)? If not, how it should be titled? "Scepticism" comes to my mind as a potentially useful word stronger than "alternative" (and, yet again disclaimer, I don't avoid calling "denialist" someone who is an outright denialist). Duja► 13:03, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Duja, your reference to "namecalling" suggested that the discussion of the words used to describe the positions that people took with respect to the question of genocide, the scale of the massacre and its reality was a simply a matter of personal disputation. If it's not a serious issue concerning the meaning of the words we use, then it's just a game.

The person who I was referring to who suggested the 2000 figure was not MacKenzie, it was an individual who posted to the Discussion page just before Christmas.

You say you don't avoid calling "denialist" someone who is an outright denialist, but you said that you didn't see any actual relevant "denialist" view. How are we going to define "outright denial"? MacKenzie questioning the view that what happened at Srebrenica was genocide when the ICTY Appeals Chamber's ruling on genocide at Srebrenica taking account of the issue of the transfer of women and children had been in the public domain for over a year seems to fall quite clearly into that category. --Opbeith 13:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

My use of term "namecalling" was inadvertently sloppy; I couldn't foresee it would be subject to such scrutiny. Well, fine, substitute it with "phrase". One way or another, if I thought it was a game, I certainly wouldn't spend so much time discussing it.
However, several editors have expressed concerns that "genocide denialist" is a libelous and loaded term, which should be avoided, especially regarding WP:BLP. We don't disagree about the substance fo MacKenzies views, and don't dispute the references, but their qualification is an editorial decision. Even if I might agree with your qualification of MacKenzie's statements. I'm trying to say is that we should err on the side of caution.
On the other hand, some stuff in the section regarding Serbia and Serbs' position in the article is outright wrong, i.e. the one that "Serbia, officially, has condemned the massacre from the very beginning". I watched the news at the time and I can tell you first-hand that it was met with utter silence and glorification of liberation, covered by Mladic's speech in front of frightened crowd of Bosniaks (I don't recall whether there were adult men in that crowd) regarding "how they have nothing to worry about and that they will get protected by VRS".
And, finally, another couple of interesting links NY Times Op. Ed. Vreme article on Scorpions (Serbian). Duja► 14:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Duja, I'm not trying to catch you out. I'm just emphatic about drawing attention to the implications of what is being said because it's important.

I don't class Lewis MacKenzie as a "genocide denialist", as I'd understand that term, in that I'm not aware of evidence of him having formally expressed his support for or having participated in a systematic effort to deny the fact of genocide at Srebrenica. The term hadn't in fact been used here before. The term we'd been discussing was "genocide denier"

From the evidence of his own words (his July 2005 article in the Globe and Mail) it's clear that MacKenzie questions the legal finding that genocide took place at Srebrenica, a finding that was arrived at after due consideration had been given to the argument MacKenzie expresses as "if you're committing genocide, you don't let the women go".

MacKenzie contests the ruling of the ICTY and its deliberations on the Genocide Convention. As a private individual with no specialist legal expertise he refutes the finding of genocide made by the competent legal authority. It's clear as daylight - MacKenzie is saying that what happened at Srebrenica should not be considered as genocide, in other words he denies that what happened at Srebrenica was genocide.

Having said that, I'm certainly happy to agree with you that there are parts of the article that do need calm review and reorganisation. And like you I remember the horror of those chilling pictures of Mladic reassuring those fearful children whom he was preparing to make orphans.--Opbeith 19:16, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Could someone notify the appropriate authorities about Osli using a sockpuppet to avoid his parole and have him blocked? There is no reason why anyone should have to listen to this person. Thank you. 89.146.136.242 20:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Well Osli, you again! After your sockpuppet role?! Come on man! Try to be honest sometimes. Emir Arven 19:07, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Osli. Your disputed tag was removed by an admin, and the admin happens to be of Serbian ancestry. It's obvious that support for your actions is diminishing, even among Serbs. The number is not 7,000 but 8,000 as confirmed by the United States Congressional Hearing on Srebrenica ( read here ). Let's not constantly play with number, we are not toddlers. 1. When it comes to "the exact number of kiilled" - there is no such number, as new mass graves are being discovered every month. It's a work in process, and as you know - DNA identification process is painstakingly slow and will take years to complete, so we can put names to the each victim. 2. I have no problem with presenting revisionist views unless they are placed in revisionist category. If you read the article, you will see that we mentioned Naser Oric's killing of 11 civilians in Kravice (please don't forget that before Oric killed 11 Serb civilians, 100s of Bosniak civilians were slaughtered by Serbian army). Also, MacKenzie's revisionist views were presented as they are. 3. I think rape accusations should be included, but for now, let's just avoid dealing with it. We all want to avoid another edit war, don't we? 4. Well, it could be useful to shorten the article, but when I say "shorten" I mean "paraphrase" longer paragraphs and make them shorter and more to the point. I am not sure would it be useful to categorize "disputed" issues... How about we categorize revisionist issues? Why is it so hard for you to accept the term "revisionism"? It's a widely used historical term. Bosniak 19:14, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Ex Osli73 semper aliquot aliquod novum. "My general feeling is that no one editing this article has disputed that some 7000 or more were killed or that it was a massacre and defined as genocide by the ICTY."

Forget that today someone claimed here that the ICTY can't be said to be an independent and reliable source, likewise the lengthy exchange that argued that the man in the street's definition or Lewis MacKenzie's definition of genocide should take precedence over the ICTY's or the Genocide Convention's. On 27 January you yourself were remarking at my Discussion page "Whether the casualties in the Tuzla column should be included can of course be discussed - though, again, the editors of the article aren't really the ones who should make that judgement. Attacking less well armed opponents with the intent to kill is quite common, but is generally not referred to as "genocide" or "massacre" ..."

The next day on your Discussion page, after informing me that I obviously saw the Tuzla column as unarmed refugees (when I had discussed the difference between and relative proportions of armed members of the column and the unarmed civilians fleeing the imminent prospect of extermination), you said that you saw the column as being "the poorly armed remnants of the 28th Division".

If you disregard the civilian members of the column who were slaughtered while prisoners in the custody of the VRS on the grounds that they are military casualties, how do you get to the figure you say you accept? And if you're suggesting that we shouldn't "generally consider" the deaths of people you've identified as "less well armed opponents" to be "genocide" how do you reconcile that point of view with the ICTY's ruling?

It's impossible ever to be certain what your circumlocutions mean, where you'll be shifting your position to next or what arbitrary action you're about to spring on us. That's why it's not as easy as you suggest to discuss these issues with you.

OK, Duja, Jitse, I'll delete this one myself as soon as you tell me to. --Opbeith 19:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Excellent response Opbeith. I would also like to add that we are not here to defend or apologize for Bosniak actions, but we are here to contribute our knowledge to this article. Osli, the attack on communist army (JNA - Yugoslav People's Army) in Tuzla is a separate issue. Tuzla is not Srebrenica, it has nothing to do with Srebrenica. However, if you want to discuss this issue in another article - you are more than welcome to do so. We should keep on topic with Srebrenica article and refrain from writing essays encompasing all Balkan events. Bosniak 19:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, you've got hold of the wrong Tuzla column. Osli73 and I were discussing the people "killed in fighting", as he described the members of the column of 12,000-15,000, approximately two thirds of them unarmed civilians, who died trying to escape from Srebrenica and make their way towards Tuzla. Members of the column made up the large majority of the victims at Srebrenica when they were slaughtered as defenceless prisoners. --Opbeith 19:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Again, quite obviously this is a controversial article with differences of opinion and understanding of the events and how they should be presented. So, therefore it would seem quite logical to have a contested-tag added to the article. It is of course equally understandable that those who feel that the article today reflects their views are not interested in a contested or pov tag.

• Regarding the numbers killed, which Bosniak raised, I have given numerous examples of how the most commonly used figure is between 7-8000 with the note that the exact number is not known. In light of that, it would seem very odd for this article to, with such certainty, state that over 8300 were killed, based on a document which includes missing and killed.
• Regarding the Tuzla column, which Opbeith brought up, I have simply argued that it would, for example, be questionable to include soldiers killed in fighting (no matter how uneven the armaments were) be included in the numbers of people killed in the massacre.
• To categorize all persons who don't believe that >8300 persons were killed, especially given that the numbers are so uncertain, as a 'revisionist', with the sinister connotations (ie "Holocaust revisionists") this is meant to give is POV.
• It is quite apparent that the allegations against Mackenzie back in the 1990s were part of a political smear campaign against him. To mention it here is nothing but a continuation of the same smear campaign.
• Finally, I completely agree with Bosniak that the article should be shortened/pruned.

Regards Osli73 23:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, perhaps you might deal with the specific point I raised about how your position with regard to the Tuzla column makes nonsense of your position on other matters.

Whatever you, I or anybody else thinks about whether the article needs shortening/pruning, you should be well aware that your record disqualifies you from acting as arbiter on the subject. --Opbeith 00:50, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, we've been over the Tuzla column issue several times. I don't see how my position on that contradicts my position on "other matters" (which ones are you referring to, if I may ask). As for being disqualified from editing this article, well, I'm sure this would be very convenient for you and for anyone else who doesn't wish to discuss these contentious issues. However, this is not up to you. Regards Osli73 00:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, We may have "been over" the Tuzla column issue several times but I still can't see where I get a plain answer from you.

If you hold that all the members of the column were members of the 28th Division of the BiH Army and hence combattants, that the members of the column who died were "killed in fighting" and that "attacking less well armed opponents with the intent to kill is quite common, but is generally not referred to as "genocide" or "massacre"" I don't see how this is consistent with your stated position that you accept the figure of 8000 victims of the massacre and you accept the fact of genocide at Srebrenica.

It's this inconsistency between what you claim to accept in one breath and what you believe in another that makes me challenge the sincerity with which one or other of these views is being expressed. I'm aware that questioning your sincerity is going to get me deleted again but despite the scruples of editors who are willing to allow you free rein, the Misplaced Pages "Assume Good Faith" guidelines provide adequate justification for comment on a pattern of provocative and disruptive interventions. --Opbeith 10:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, someone seems to have edited out Osli73's last contribution. When I raised the issue of Osli73 using the identity of KarlXII and this was deemed an unacceptable personal comment. Osli73's explanation that this was an error was accepted. So it's been decided that we have to go on putting up with him. That said, I'm grateful to the editor for relieving me of the tedium of returning to Osli73's inability to deal in a straightforward way with challenges to his logic/good faith. --Opbeith 13:35, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, this is getting quite tedious. I'm saying that

1. if a more or less well armed column of men as part of a formal military unit, in this case the 28th Division of the BiH Army are attacked while trying to escape this may be unfair, but it's not a "massacre". This report by the RS Government on the massacre (page 12 and onwards) describes it.
2. However, if they are captured and then killed as POW, then this certainly is a "massacre".
3. Therefore, to include all those 8300 identified persons "killed and missing" around Srebrenica around the time of the Serb takeover of the town in the number of persons killed in the Srebrenica massacre is stretching the truth.
4. As for the numbers killed in the massacre, I don't know. Most sources (see the list further down on the Talk page) say somewhere between 7-8000. So, that's what I believe and what I think the article should say as well.
5. The Srebrenica massacre doens't become any more or less Genocide just wether or not 7000, 8000 or more than 8300 persons were killed there. It's still Genocide.

Regards Osli73 23:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Duja

Hi Duja. I thought you were Serbian (well I guess you are), but based on the information you posted on your website, you are also a Bosnian. In fact, you were born and lived in the region I came from. No matter how you feel, you are full blooded Bosnian, and I am glad you are respecting your Bosnian roots and not trying to vandalize Srebrenica Genocide article. I have sent you an email, so drop me a line. Cheers. Bosniak 19:04, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Lewis MacKenzie rape allegations

I was under the impression that we'd come to an agreement that those ridiculous rape allegations have no place in this article. Do I have to keep this article on my watchlist forever to keep removing them? User:Emir Arven, please review the talk page history; I'm not going to waste everyone's time reposting the arguments again. -- Jim Douglas _(contribs) 20:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

We didn't agree that the rape allegations were ridiculous and we didn't agree that they had no place in this article. What we did agree was that without them there were already sufficient grounds to question Lewis MacKenzie's authority as a commentator on matters relating to Srebrenica without needing to mention the allegations. --Opbeith 20:12, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

They are patently ridiculous. The original allegations were fabricated; the current ones run over the same tired ground. No charges have been filed; a prosecutor engaged in idle gossip with an AFP reporter, having initiated no legal proceedings whatsoever. The allegations have been repeatedly added to the article for the past several months in an attempt to smear MacKenzie's name as an ad hominem attack on his character. Let's just stick to the facts. Ad hominem arguments simply make you look desperate, as if you believe that the simple facts aren't enough to make your point. -- Jim Douglas _(contribs) 20:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The rape allegations against Mackenzie are quite obviously attempts by some Bosniak groups to try to smear someone who is perceived as a critic.To reiterate them here has nothing to do with his credibility as a commentator on Bosnian affairs (which is why he is allowed to express his opinions in mainstream western media). It's the same as if/when Serb groups add charges of "islamic fundamentalism" to try to smear Bosniak politicians. Cheers Osli73 21:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, please don't...you have no shame, just remember when you pretented to be Karl in order to promote Serb propaganda! Emir Arven 03:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli or whoever you are now, the sentence is info about re-opening the investigation based on testimonies of raped women. Show some respect to the victims. Emir Arven 22:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

User:Emir Arven: Please review the recent talk page history; we've been over these arguments repeatedly. Opbeith: You have complained that you can never take the time to work on the substance of the article because you have to continually revisit old arguments. Here's a demonstration of why that happens. It appears from the edit history here and on other talk pages, including User talk:Osli73, that this politically motivated smear has been removed many, many times over the past several months, with exhaustive discussion about the source of the original fabrication, and the reasons why this ad hominem argument has no place here. Can I ask you to show some respect for WP:NPOV and drop this, please? -- Jim Douglas _(contribs) 22:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Emir Arven, regarding "Show some respect to the victims.": With all due respect, alleged victims. A local prosecutor engaged in idle gossip with an AFP reporter. He has not filed charges; Lewis MacKenzie has not been charged with any crime. The only reason for continually juxtaposing MacKenzie's comments with those unsubstantiated rape allegations is to serve as an ad hominem attack on his character. -- Jim Douglas _(contribs) 22:30, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

No, we don't know yet, because the investigation is re-opened (it was also opened during the war, because MacKenzie was well known by his friendship with today most wanted people that are hiding from justice, the war criminals Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic responsible for this genocide). But I put just the fact that the investigation was re-opened. Emir Arven 03:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Emir said:

MacKenzie was well known by his friendship with today most wanted people that are hiding from justice, the war criminals Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic responsible for this genocide).

Emir, with all due respect, that's ridiculous. MacKenzie's responsibilities in Sarajevo required him to have a working relationship -- not a "friendship" -- with all sides of the conflict. If you read his book, you'll find that his life was threatened by the JNA because they got it into their heads that he was personally responsible for a Bosnian ambush of JNA troops. As far as I can tell, the reality in the Balkans is that you're either an ally or an enemy -- nobody is accepted as being sincerely neutral.

But I put just the fact that the investigation was re-opened.

Just in passing, you added that comment using a non-reliable source that isn't even in English. Emir, can I ask you to honestly examine your motives for adding it? Is it possible that you added it because you believe MacKenzie is a Serb-loving, Bosniak-hating criminal, and calling him a rapist casts doubt on his credibility as a military analyst? The allegations themselves were known to have been fabricated when they came out of Borislav Herak's mouth in 1992. I spent far more time than I ever wanted to explaining all of this last month. These new allegations repeat the same old outrageous fabrications about MacKenzie raping Bosnian women in "Camp Sonja", a site that he never visited. It's now several months after Oleg Cavka gossiped to a reporter, and he still hasn't initiated any actual legal proceedings. Adding vague and unsubstantiated allegations as you've done here violates WP:NPOV#Undue weight:

'Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.

The only possible reason for juxtaposing MacKenzie's comments about the Srebrenica massacre with the observation that a local prosecutor had a chat with an AFP reporter about rape allegations is to tell readers that this witness is not to be trusted. That's not how you go about writing an WP:NPOV encyclopedia article.

There's certainly good reason for including that {{Round In Circles}} template at the top of this page. -- Jim Douglas _(contribs) 04:14, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Did you read the testimony of a raped woman from Sonja? Emir Arven 15:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Testimony! Perfect, now we're getting somewhere. Yes, please, Emir. I would love to read testimony reported by a reliable source. Please read WP:RS first, and note that Bosniak's blog is not a reliable source. -- Jim Douglas _(contribs) 21:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Jim Douglas, on the whole I agree with you that until charges have been laid and proven the victims should be referred to as alleged victims. That's potentially hurtful to people who have a far closer personal acquaintance with matters than you or I but if we are observing the principle of "verifiability" rather than "truth" then that's the line we should try to follow where it's reasonable.

The rape allegations are relevant and important in that they have a bearing on MacKenzie's apparent partiality towards the Bosnian Serb leadership (going beyond the requirements of a "working relationship") and subsequently his endorsement of Bosnian Serb perspectives. But MacKenzie is only relevant to Srebrenica insofar as his opinions are regularly cited in support of tendentious arguments about the scale of the massacre and the fact of genocide. His unreliability has been adequately demonstrated. That's why I'm not convinced that the allegations need to remain in place here.

But with all your insistence on observing legal niceties you actually misrepresent the position regarding the laying of charges against MacKenzie. And I also find it disturbing that you consider it appropriate to lecture people about observing the niceties of libel law who have actually been on the receiving end of genocide, an area where you consider anything goes and feel free to disregard and reinterpret the provisions and findings of international law. --Opbeith 09:15, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I think I should add that in Emir Arven's exasperated response to Osli73 it's clear to me that in the context of the Bosnian war where rape was used as a weapon of war it's legitimate to refer to women who say they have been raped should as victims plain and simple unless there's a concrete reason for disbelieving them. That's a separate issue from the matter of acknowledging that the identity of the perpetrator remains unproven. --Opbeith 09:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, it's quite clear that the original accusations of rape against Mackenzie were part of a propaganda war. That is why no respectable western media cover this or give it any credence. The Bosnian government, just as the Bosnian Serb government, the Croatian government and the Serbian government all engaged in propaganda, including exaggerating civilian casualties, gory details of beheadings, mujahedeen, etc etc. Just as rape was used as a "weapon of war" it was also used as a "weapon of propaganda" in the war. This is one very clear example of this. To qualify a persons comments with "alleged rapist" is not serious. To include it in the article would reduce its quality (even more). Regards Osli73 01:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I have removed a number of original comments regarding Mackenzie in the article.

1. To begin with, these were typical examples of original research and not sourced.
2. To a certain extent they were simply stating the obvious, eg that he disputes the numbers killed or that he apparently doens't agree with the findings of the ICTY.

Why not just say that there are also non-Serb commentators who don't agree with the view presented by the ICTY and then give examples of what some of them have said, including Mackenzie. There is no need to try to tarnish them with fake rape allegations or various allegations. Regards Osli73 10:29, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

My take on this article

Editing this article, there are a few: (1) a few Serb revisionists (2) a few hyperbolic Bosnians (3) a few sane people working towards an accurate article

In any case, edit wars by groups (1) and (2) have made editting this article by group (3) completely pointless. The goal of the first two groups is to push their version of reality as much as possible without getting banned from Misplaced Pages. Logic and argument are useless, because groups (1) and (2) aren't listenning to logical argument. They respond only to power, the threat of getting banned, and on Misplaced Pages, the standard for getting banned is quite high. There are really no penalties for raising bogus objections, making intermittent false edits, and otherwise being a massive nuisance.

I'm not editting this article because it's a massive waste of time. I could make a few changes, but protecting the changes, arguing on talk page etc..., would be an absolute full time job. If MacKenzie comes in and sues Misplaced Pages for libel, fine with me. That's what Misplaced Pages deserves for having a barely policed process that lets intellectually dishonest editors hijack an article because they have more free time. As far as I can tell, the only way to get banned is to blatantly vandalize, make personal threats or violate the 3 revert rule, other than that, everything appears to be fair game. -- Mgunn 05:40, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Mgunn, I share your frustration but at the same time I'm aware that this isn't an academic exercise. Knowledge doesn't exist in isolation from the real world. We're not engaged in describing a herbarium specimen. We're dealing with an event that has destroyed and continues to destroy people's lives.

We need to distinguish between attempts to promote a biased account of history and the irruption of understandable and proper anger when experience is being traduced. We're in the immensely privileged position of being able to take a relatively detached position, we should be careful how we judge the actions of others. --Opbeith 08:40, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Why shouldn't this be an academic exercise? Why should emotion have anything to do with this article at all? I'm disappointed with the constant conflict mentality. In the brief period I've watched this article there has been this constant barrage of inappropriate edits: some people keep trying to take out any reference to "genocide" and other people keep inserting stuff like this wild MacKenzie stuff. The allegation of rape against a Canadian general while on active duty is an absolutely extraordinary allegation. I'm not Canadian, but I have great confidence in their legal system and military, and if there anything to the allegation, I'm sure they would have taken action. Also, the idea that a NATO military officer should be turned over to a foreign country for alleged actions while on active duty is also extraordinary. The position being argued regarding MacKenzie is an absolutely radical position both with regard to facts and international politics/law. -- Mgunn 11:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't claim to have any knowledge of the precise legal situation so I would hope to be corrected by anyone with better information. The crux of the matter appears to be that MacKenzie has diplomatic immunity. The Bosnian prosecutor's office wishes to interview him. Unless he has been interviewed charges can't be brought in the Bosnian courts. Because MacKenzie has diplomatic immunity he does not need to respond to requests for an interview. The Canadian government is being lobbied to encourage MacKenzie to waive his immunity and agree to attend an interview, which I presume could be arranged on Canadian soil. I don't think that at this stage it's a question of the Canadian government simply "turning him over". --Opbeith 13:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Former General Lewis Mackenzie is already under investigation in Bosnia and he was invited to respond to charges of rape. Serbian and leftist web sites are posting distorted and highly suspicious material trying to prove that he is innocent, etc. Well, let him face rape victims, let him answer charges. If he is innocent, then be it. He has been avoiding responsibility for too long. And he's been paid by Serb lobby to hold speeches. I mean, the guy is obviously pro-Serbian, there is no question about that. Is he guilty of rape? I don't know - let the courts speak. He claims he didn't do it. However, he never wanted even to bother to visit Supreme Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina and answer allegations of rape. Jim Douglas, Osli73, and similar people will continue to disrupt this article - as they do right now. It is not my responsibility to police them. You know well when I react to vandalism that I either get blocked or banned. There is a clear double standard, however, I tend to assume good faith. What I learned here is that it's imposible to reason with unreasonable, so I don't take it to heart as I did in the past. Let's stop this endless Mackenzie discussion. He's not that important. Cheers. Bosniak 07:29, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, please don't mischaracterize other editors; it's not polite. Your definition of disruption and vandalism appears to be any contributions from editors who disagree with you. As far as being blocked for "reverting vandalism", I'm sorry; I don't see it. Here's your block log; which one of these was you getting blocked for "reverting vandalism"?

1. "No personal attacks"
2. "threatening legal action"
3. "vandalizing AfD votes"
4. "3RR"
5. "disruption, revert-warring, trolling, incivility - discussed on ANI"

For the record, I did stop the MacKenzie discussion. After a long, painful week, I was under the impression that we'd reached a consensus to omit unsubstantiated rape allegations -- and yet here they are again. Since we're all agreed that we'd like to stop this endless MacKenzie discussion, can I ask you to remove it from the article, please? -- Jim Douglas _(contribs) 07:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

No because it is not info about rape allegations, but about re-starting investigation. The problem is that he never showed up in Bosnia, in Courte to answer some questions. So, when you mentioned his Serb-frinedship, it might me the truth:

Lewis and Serbian Unity Congress

Lewis - SUC

While it is difficult to ascertain exactly how much has been directed towards payment for speakers and journalists, the SUC and Serbnet have set up a special fund for this purpose. Based on former UN General Lewis MacKenzie's own admission which was later corroborated by Serbnet -- that he was receiving over $15,000 per speaking engagement -- the amount spent on MacKenzie represents more than what the SUC is paying to PR firms such as Manatos and Manatos, Inc.

But just, who is Gen. Lewis MacKenzie? To answer that question, one must go back to 1992. In December - same year - the chief Bosnian military prosecutor in Sarajevo, Mustafa Bisic, formally charged Gen. Lewis MacKenzie with sexual misconduct against civilians while on duty in Bosnia, and requested that the UN revoke his displomatic immunity. MacKenzie was accused of raping several Bosnian women being held captive in a Serbian prison camp, as a "gift" from Serbian officials. The victims were later executed by Serbian soldiers, allegedly to 'erase evidence'.

Here is an archived version of investigative article published on June 4th, 1993 by Pacific News Services:

(...)

In a letter to the Bosnian president dated Dec. 3, 1992, Bisic cited the eyewitness testimony of a Serbian guard who had worked at the camp, known as Kod Sonje. The guard claimed he saw MacKenzie and several escorts arrive in a military transport vehicle with the UN insignia. The eyewitness claimed guards were then ordered to release four Bosnian Muslim women prisoners to MacKenzie. According to the prosecutor's complaint, the women were later murdered by camp guards under orders to "erase evidence" of this "unusual gift."

This is just according to Serb guard, you can read more in the source that I provided. Investigation started in 1992, is re-opened now, because new evidence came out.Emir Arven 16:13, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Emir, the organization you are referring to (www.freeserbia.net) doesn't have any address and only claims to be run by "Serbs who live in exile." You should know that setting up websites pruporting to respresent groups which in fact don't exist is a quite common media strategy (eg used by the Russian govt in lobbying for recognition of Transdniestr region in Moldova). The information you are referring to is collected by people described as follows:

"Students Against GEnocide (SAGE) -- Project Bosnia is a national student organization based at Stanford University and is an affiliate of the American Committee to Save Bosnia. Over the past eighteen months SAGE has been monitoring the activities of Serbian activists in the San Francisco Bay Area as part of an on-going campaign to discredit Serb-nationalist apologists and revisionists. The information presented in this briefing was collected from a vast number of sources. This includes personal correspondence, private meetings and forums organized by the Serbian Unity Congress and its affiliated groups. This briefing was written by Brad K. Blitz, a Ph.D. candidate in international development education at Stanford University.

So, to say that they are part of the "Serb guard" is a little bit misleading. The SUC is in fact the largest Serbian organization in the United States. Regards Osli73 14:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Editing in and out of existence

Laughing Man, I understood that you were supposed to be discussing your edits, rather than making them on an arbitrary basis. Nevertheless it's interesting to see Osli73's eccentricities returned to public inspection. Now perhaps you'd be so kind as to consult with Jitse and Duja about restoring other contributions that you've all chosen to dispose of without any form of prior discussion. --Opbeith 15:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Is it about this article? If it is yet another personal attack, please do not waste your time. I have restored relevant comments deleted (about this article) deleted by 89.146.128.58. It seems some editors here are more focused on getting the attention off the problems with this article and on to other editors instead. Please try comment on the article content, not the contributors here. Thank you. // Laughing Man 15:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Scorpions

I have removed the comment about the Scorpions being "special state security forces of Serbia" from the intro text. While it is clear that the Scorpions did indeed participate, it is not clear that they were, at the time, under the command of Serbia. This IWPR article goes into quite a bit of depth on the issue, saying:

The question that will necessarily arise at the tribunal, should the tape showing the executions be admitted into evidence, is under whose command the Scorpions operated in the summer of 1995 when they are alleged to have killed the six Muslim men and boys in Trnovo. The prosecution at the tribunal claim that the Milosevic-led Serbian security authorities were in charge of the unit, while the former Belgrade leader has insisted that it was under the control of the Croatian Serb authorities.

According to IWPR sources, the Scorpions at the time of the atrocity were formally part of the 11th Corps of the VRSK, the Army of the Republic of Serb Krajina, the self-proclaimed Croatian Serb statelet.

Medic, in testimony given a few years ago in a case involving one of his former comrades, said the Scorpions unit was formed in 1991, initially to provide security for the eastern Slovonian oil fields. He added that in 1996 it became a reserve unit in the Serbian Public Security Service Special Anti-Terrorist Unit, SAJ.

This was confirmed last week at the Milosevic trial, when witness General Obrad Stevanovic, the former Serbian assistant interior minister, told the court that “the earliest point that could have been would have been after the end of the war in Krajina, after mid 1996 or perhaps slightly earlier ”.

A recently published report by the Serbian organised crime department into links between the Scorpions and the Belgrade authorities says that the paramilitary unit did not come under the command of the SAJ until March 1999.

Likewise, this Centre for Southeast European Studies article writes that "While the perpetrators and the victims of the crime shown on the tape have been identified, it remains unclear under whose command the unit was in July 1995.". In conclusion, it would appear to be pushing it to label the Scorpions as "Serbian" implies that they were Serbian state control while this is far from established. Regards Osli73 01:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

There is a trial in Belgrade now, against Serbian police unit, Scorpions, so don't spread bull shit! Emir Arven 07:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

You have already tried this once, when you were blocked because of your sockpuppet role, and we have been through this discussion, the information is sourced. Emir Arven 07:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Emir, no need to use this type of language. You are correct, that there is a trial going on in Belgrade of some of the members of the Scorpions unit. If you read the iwpr article (see above) you will see that it is hoped the trial will spread some light on under whose responsibility/command the Scorpions acted. Until then, it would be premature to say, or imply, that they acted on behalf of the Serbian/YU state. The two references you are referring are quite clear in saying that the link is not yet clear.

There is, as you are probably aware of, another trial going on at the Intl. Tribunal between BH and YU (now Serbia) regarding alleged Serbian involvement in the civil war in Bosnia, where the issue of the Scorpions chain of command is seen as important. Again, neither of these trials have been completed. So, until then, it would be wrong for the article to make this appear as fact. Regards Osli73 13:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The Red Berets (Seb state security) were also sent to Bosnia, to take part in another massacre - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ZZ4HcWQBY#GU5U2spHI_4 (Serb paramilitary leader talking about their involvement). You can recall Red Berets from the crackdown on them after the Dindic murder. --HanzoHattori 10:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

~8000 vs >83008300-2007-02-11T01:56:00.000Z">

The article current states that "at least 8300" were killed based on figures of "missing and killed". I advocate using "an estimated 8,000" since most estimates vary between 7-8000. Thus "an estimated 8000" seems fair. Some examples:

1. HRW ("“Safe Areas” for Srebrenica’s Most Wanted; A Decade of Failure to Apprehend Karadzic and Mladic, June 2005) uses ther words "between 7,000 and 8,000"
2. The Enclyclopedia Britannica says "more than 7,000" http
3. "Accounting for Genocide: How Many Were Killed in Srebrenica?", European Journal of Population, Sept. 2003. It concludes that "We conclude that at least 7,475 persons were killed after the fall of Srebrenica." and
4. BBC writes "more than 7,000" ("Timeline: Siege of Srebrenica")
5. CNN referst to "up to 8,000" ("Srebrenica: 'A triumph of evil'", May 2006)
6. Domovina.net cites "Around 8000" ("Srebrenica : Introduction", May 2002)
7. NIOD report writes that "The Yugoslavia Tribunal concluded that between 7000 and 8000 men were executed, although this does not allow for the possibility that some will have died during the march for any of a number of other reasons. Based on the Bosnian Serb figure of approximately 6000 'prisoners of war' captured by the VRS, it seems that of the 7500 missing persons, approximately 6000 faced execution while the others met their end through some other cause." (NIOD report, Part IV, Chapter 2:20, "Review")
8. ICTY in its judgement against Krstic writes "between 7,000 – 8,000" (ICTY, April 2004, para. 2)

Remember, Misplaced Pages is not the place for Original research. Regards Osli73 01:56, 11 February 2007 (UTC)8300"> 8300">

Misplaced Pages is not place for Serb propaganda, and you were blocked because of that, remember? The information about 8300 people is sourced with the detailed list of people killed. The list is a based on research conducted by an institution, Federal Comission for Investigation. Emir Arven 07:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Everybody, please control yourselves. You know that we must not make personal attacks in the form of reminding contributors that they have been blocked or that they have deliberately misled other contributors as to their identity. You know very well that we must only talk about the article, not the reality that lies behind the changes made to it. Osli73 is a protected species. Please be civil and stop causing offence to the Friends of Osli73. --Opbeith 23:28, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Hello, Friends of Osli73, thanks again for your suppport and assistance in maintaining the quality of Misplaced Pages's content and reputation. Your eagerness to leap on all references to Osli73's disruptive background and willingness to allow him free rein on his return perhaps explains why he now feels justified as part of his campaign to establish the non-existence of rape charges against Lewis MacKenzie in deleting my addition:

"These views propose a different definition of genocide to that contained in the International Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. Writing in July 2005 MacKenzie chose not to refer to the ICTY Appeals Chamber's confirmation in April 2004 that the original Trial Chamber was correct in rejecting the defence that genocide could not have occurred because the women and children were transferred away from the area. The Canadian government has not publicised any intention to seek a revision of the Convention's wording.

MacKenzie's views also dispute the Appeal Chamber's finding in April 2004 that 7000-8000 Bosnian men and boys were murdered at Srebrenica although he offers no new evidence to contradict the Court's findings.

MacKenzie's views are frequently cited by commentators who are reluctant to accept the ICTY's findings."

Osli73 appears to consider these comments on a par with the rape allegations. So, Osli73, would you mind telling me why you object to me circulating these lies I invent? --Opbeith 01:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Emir, yes, you have used the Federal Commissions list of "missing and killed" as a reference. What I am saying, is that this doesn't necessarily equate the numbers killed in the massacre. This is also probably why most other sources (see list supplied above) cite figures between 7-8000. This has nothing to do with "Serb propaganda" (I'm interested, which of the above sources is it you are referring to?). Obviously, the exact number of persons killed is uncertain, which is why I prefer a more general comment like "7-8000" or "an estimated 8000". Regards Osli73 13:50, 11 February 2007 (UTC)8300"> 8300">

Osli73, you tell me that you consider all the members of the Tuzla column to be poorly-armed members of the 28th Division of the BiH Army. You tell me that the killing of less-well armed opponents are not "generally considered" to be victims of a massacre or genocide. So where do you get all these estimated 8000 victims of a massacre that you accept was genocide. You can't say that there were 8000 victims and then define victimhood so that the only people you accept as victims are the number separated at Potocari, roughly 2000 as far as I know. Please let's have a bit of straight talking / thinking. --Opbeith 22:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)8300"> 8300">

As a separate point, so that I hope you will answer it separately, you are constantly emphasising the "missingness" of a number of the victims as a reason for not accepting the list of reported names which have been memorialised at Potocari. The massacre occurred in 1995. It is now 2007. I understand, subject to correction by someone with more up-to-date / accurate legal information, that in English law a missing person can be declared dead by a court after a period fo seven years has elapsed without any sign of them being alive. I think the same is true in the US. A large number of mussing English victims of the tsunami were in fact declared dead after a period of a year. Can I ask on what grounds you feel entitled to believe that the missing of Srebrenica are still alive? --Opbeith 22:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)8300-1"> 8300-1">

Osli73, you are citing NIOD Report which was highly innacurate and biased. Read here... Peace. Bosniak 22:56, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Your using the "Srebenica Genocide Blog" to claim this? The most far thing from a reliable source as possible. // Laughing Man 23:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, very simple:

1. I suggest using the term "estimated 8000" simply because this is in line with the figures cited by the majority of sources when referring to the massacre.
2. I have no doubt that all of the 8300 persons on that list are most likely dead. What I am contesting is that all of them were 'massacred'. Some may, as I have said, have been killed in fighting before or after the attack on Srebrenica. This is the same as when Bosnian Serb authorities try to include military casualties in the number of victims of Naser Oric's attacks in 1992-1993.

Finally, I only suggest that the article use the figures used by the majority of sources when describing the massacre. I have nothing against mentioning that the total number of missing and killed in the Srebrenica region in the summer of 1995 is 8300. In fact, I have always been in favor of a speparate section discussing the numbers killed and where and the various attempts at identifying and counting them. Regards Osli73 23:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC)8300"> 8300">

"Osli73", you still don't seem prepared to explain how and why you agree with the figure you mention. You've said that you regard all members of the Tuzla column as poorly-armed members of the 28th Division. You suggest that members of the Tuzla column who died were "killed in fighting". You suggest that you don't believe that killing less well-armed opponents counts as massacre. That suggests that you don't in fact believe the 8000 figure, regardless of whether you're happy to suggest using it. So, how many of the dead and missing from the Tuzla column (estimated figures will do)will you allow to be included among those massacred at Srebrenica? --Opbeith 00:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, I don't see how the accusations of a political blog (which I believe you are actually a contributor to, if I remember correctly) can have any weight in the manner. There are plenty of Serbian blogs (even newspapers) who produce all kinds of twisted explanations and 'proof' that the ICTY is biased and nothing but a Nato invention to punish Serbs. Let's keep those types of accusations out of this article (including the ones about Mackenzie being an alleged rapist, which are also much promoted on the srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com). Again, please come up with some reliable sources. Regards Osli73 23:35, 11 February 2007 (UTC)8300"> 8300">

Osli73, why are you misrepresenting the point Bosniak made? He was talking about the NIOD Report being inaccurate. And Laughing Man, please keep yourself to the facts and save the insults for your own entertainment elsewhere.

Before dismissing Srebrenica Genocide Blog so summarily, I suggest you both read the relevant page first.

Srebrenica Genocide Blog cites its sources quite clearly. One relevant source is an IWPR article giving Jan Willem Honig's comments on the NIOD report, as follows:

"According to Jan Willem Honig, senior lecturer in war studies at London’s Kings College and co-author of the highly-praised “Srebrenica, Record of a War Crime”, the truth lies somewhere in between. Although he says the report “has an aura of independent academic research,” Honig is critical of its length, saying the sheer abundance of information makes it possible for anyone to pluck from it whatever they need to make their point. This, he says, is a liability because the report is not always consistent. “It's possible to draw different conclusions from the different parts in the book. Therefore one can imagine it is useful to both defence and prosecution,” he said. Honig said he found numerous errors in the report as well. For example, he said an explanatory map inserted as a graphic aid to explaining the Bosnian Serb battle plan does not correspond with the plan as described in the text. And neither the written description nor the map accurately describe the actual plan."

and the supplementary comment "Honig is not alone in criticising the report. Many readers have complained that the index is poorly organised and full of errors, particularly regarding peoples’ names. Even those who worked on the NIOD report have been critical of it. One of the nine NIOD-researchers, anthropologist Ger Duijzings recently told the Dutch newspaper NRC Handelsblad, “Information from sources that I found unreliable, I found back in Part 1 – used by Bob de Graaf, if he thought it fitted in his argumentation." (http://www.iwpr.net/?p=tri&s=f&o=166497&apc_state=henitri2004)

Call me old-fashioned if you will but when you say that something is inaccurate I think it's worth checking your own accuracy as well. --Opbeith 00:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, I’ll try to answer your three questions (as I understand them) separately:

1. I don’t see any need to specify exactly how the 7-8000 victims were killed. I simply accept that the vast majority of sources say that (a) it’s difficult to know exactly how many were killed and (b) then go on to give figures in the range of 7-8000. The article should reflect the common well-informed view of the massacre, eg that presented in the ICTY judgement against Krstic or the NIOD report, not draw its own conclusions. I would welcome a section on the various estimates of persons killed and missing and the attempts to identify them. It would certainly be in order to mention that the Federal Commission for Missing Persons has named 8300 persons missing or confirmed dead in the Srebrenica region during the summer of 1995.
2. The NIOD report was indeed criticised by one or two persons not involved in it. However, as far as I understand, these criticisms were about details, not the overriding findings of the report. Just as I don’t see any need to qualify the NIOD report as being “alleged inaccurate”, I don’t see any need to include rubbish like “the ICTY has been described as inaccurate and anti-Serb by many commentators” whenever the ICTY findings are presented. In the same way I don’t see any need to describe Mackenzie as an “alleged rapist” or the Bosniak government as “alleged Islamic fundamentalists”, etc.
3. The information on Mackenzie I removed was completely unsourced and part of the same type of negative labelling as the rape accusations. Why not just say that Mackenzie is one persons with differing views and then present what he says.

I hope I have answered your questions. Regards Osli73 10:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)8300"> 8300">

(1) OK, Osli73, now at last you've finally explained that you are making a distinction between the deaths of members of the Tuzla column before they were taken prisoner and their deaths as prisoners of war. That I can understand. It's just a shame that it takes so much effort to get that explanation from you. But anyway, that makes your position on the numbers understandable.

However I still don't understand why you insist on classing all members of the column as armed combattants prior to the time when they were taken prisoner. Given the evidence in UN and ICTY reports that the majority were unarmed civilians this seems an untenable argument. Since the evidence suggests that the soldiers were spearheading the column while the majority of casualties were suffered in what appeared to be planned and coordinated ambushes and attacks on the rear parts of the column by well-armed VRS forces I'm puzzled by your insistence that the deaths of civilians fleeing a well-founded fear of extermination should not be considered part of the plan of extermination within which those VRS forces were acting?

(2) "The NIOD report was indeed criticised by one or two persons not involved in it."? Five lines above the start of your answer - "One of the nine NIOD-researchers, anthropologist Ger Duijzings recently told the Dutch newspaper NRC Handelsblad, “Information from sources that I found unreliable, I found back in Part 1 – used by Bob de Graaf, if he thought it fitted in his argumentation." (http://www.iwpr.net/?p=tri&s=f&o=166497&apc_state=henitri2004)

"However, as far as I understand, these criticisms were about details, not the overriding findings of the report." Well, as I remarked already, was directed at the fact that the report's conclusions were not "overriding", because of a lack of coherence. I quoted the report of Jan Willem Honig pointing out that the sheer abundance of information makes it possible for anyone to pluck from it whatever they need to make their point - which is a problem because of the report's lack of consistency as well as its numerous errors. So I still think you misrepresent Bosniak's criticism of the report.

(3) MacKenzie's views about the Massacre are unsourced? Do I need to quote the full wording of the Genocide Convention? It's in the public domain. The Globe and Mail article is referred to. The established facts concerning the points at issue - the finding of genocide and the numbers of victims - are sourced throughout the article. MacKenzie has no direct knowledge himself of what happened but he is regularly referred to as a supporting voice by "alternative" commentators (as anyone would know who gave a moment's thought to what other people have asserted here). Are you denying that?

And are you really entitled to step in and delete something that was extensively discussed on the discussion page without you bothering to offer any point of view? There's a miscrepancy between the carefully measured way in which you express yourself verbally in your contributions and the way you act. --Opbeith 11:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)8300"> 8300">

Opbeith, I'll give a short answer to your above comments:

1. As I stated above, I support the 7-8000 figure or the estimated 8000 figure because that is what the vast majority of respectable sources say. There is no need for us to make our own analyses and draw our own conclusions in the text.
2. Yes, some people have been quoted as criticising aspects of the NIOD report. However, I'm saying that so has just about every other report, including the ICTY findings in its case against Krstic, but there is not need to denounce all of these. It's analogous to including a comment about Mackenzie being accused of rape, the intention is to tarnish a political oponent. Nationalist Serbs try to do it all the time here on Misplaced Pages, sayig that the ICTY is just a Nato invention and that the ICTY is biased, etc.
3. The comments you included on Mackenzie which I had removed were all your own analysis and conclusions, ie original research. Misplaced Pages isn't the place for this type of private analysis, no matter if you 'agreed' to it with some of the other editors.

Regards Osli73 12:41, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

As I see it, it's quite easy. We have several respected sources giving figures of around 8,000 or less (CNN, BBC, ICTY, etc.), even after disregarding the NIOD report. Against that, there is one link to a website listing 8373 names without giving any indication where these come from. If that list is generally seen as the best estimate for the number of victims, then it shouldn't be hard to find good references to that. Otherwise, we are bound to go with the majority of sources. This used to be the position of both Fairview and myself, and I haven't seen anything which makes me change my position. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 12:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Friends of Osli73

Friends of Osli73. You've been eager in the past to censor comments that draw attention to Osli73's disruptive behaviour, apparently not considering his record of activity to be relevant to the changes he makes to the article. Your eagerness to take action against comments on and analysis of Osli73's status and interventions constrasts very vividly with your inaction now he has resumed his old pattern.

Osli73's most recent hit-and-run attack on the content of the article has now been reverted but it's illustrative of his way of proceeding and the merits of his contributions. What he did was to delete, without warning, the analysis of Lewis MacKenzie's views on genocide and the scope of the massacre at Srebrenica that I had included as being directly relevant to the frequent citation here of MacKenzie's views on Srebrenica. I had very deliberately avoided any reference to the alleged visits to Kod Sonje.

I believe that I summed up the content of MacKenzie's position with regard to Srebrenica fairly, referring to his own published words. MacKenzie offers an interpretation of the Genocide Convention which refutes the careful deliberations of the ICTY on the matter. He is an individual, not a legal expert, arguing that the views of legal authorities should be ignored, with regard to genocide and to the scope of the murders that constitute the Srebrenica massacre. I did not point out that MacKenzie had no official status or responsibility at the time of the massacre that would give his pronouncements on the subject of Srebrenica authority.

I had also noted that his views are frequently cited by commentators who are reluctant to accept the ICTY's findings. This reference I considered justifiable because the section covered the general category of people who either reject the legal finding of genocide or contest the number of murders, or both.

Although I have no hesitation describing these commentators as genocide deniers, revisionists and apologists - not to insult them but to use words with their correct meaning to describe those commentators' position - I have not challenged the bowdlerisation of the section's heading to "Alternative views" or "critical views" (the positions can be understood whatever the words used to describe them). Osli73 swings into action without any thought of consultation to impose his new version of the title, "Non-Serb commentators".

A passing reference in the subject line indicates that Osli73 regards himself as "removing speculation about nature of Mackenzie's ideas." There was no speculation involved here. I had gone through the points raised very carefully and a number of times on the Discussion page, without any input from Osli73.

The way in which Misplaced Pages allows Osli73 to use the article as his own personal playground while protecting his reputation highlights the inadequacies of the Misplaced Pages process. Duja, "I should get a skin"? Is that what you think it boils down to? There's a deafening silence here from all the fine-minded defenders of civilised Misplaced Pages behaviour. Why? --Opbeith 09:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith,

1. Please see my comments above why I removed your analyses and comments on Mackenzie. Basically, the text in question was all your own analysis and your own conclusions.
2. I don't see this article as my own personal playground. However, several of the editors apparently do. I've never asked anyone to leave or called them names.

Regards Osli73 10:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, have you ever been asked to discuss your changes before making them? --Opbeith 10:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of the reference to Gendercide

Osli73, Another arbitrary deletion that shows how much attention you pay to other people's discussions. The sourced reference to "gendercide" has a direct bearing on the argument MacKenzie uses to argue that genocide did not occur. This was discussed. You don't take part in the discussion. You don't discuss your opinion regarding the point's relavnce. You simply delete. This is not good faith but fits the pattern. --Opbeith 11:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Anonymous user in Sarajevo censoring Osli73

El C, it's hardly a minor edit to delete the message reminding us "Osli73 willfully violated his parole. What is the consequence?89.146.148.169 11:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)" --Opbeith 12:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

The edit wasn't simply removal of that message. It was a reversion of an anonymous user in Sarajevo who has been systematically removing edits by Osli73 over the past few days:

• Special:Contributions/89.146.145.110
• Special:Contributions/89.146.136.242
• Special:Contributions/89.146.128.58
• Special:Contributions/89.146.148.169

Is Osli73 banned from this article? If not, then those edits are vandalism, and El C was simply reverting ongoing vandalism. -- Jim Douglas _(contribs) 12:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Selectivity / equivalency?

Duja, Jitse, Laughing Man, whoever - please break the silence and explain to me the principle by which someone may choose to leave in place the reporting of a non-expert's opinions that disputes established facts and principles (MacKenzie's views on the genocide and the number of victims at Srebrenica) and delete the efforts to provide evidence of the commentator's inconsistency without discussing the matter beforehand? Duja, what counts as "poison in the well" and what doesn't? I'm sorry, I seem to be too thick to understand the subtleties informing action on Misplaced Pages. --Opbeith 12:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

MacKenzie led the UN forces for some time prior to the massacre, and it is therefore to be expected that he has some grasp of the situation. Now, if MacKenzie were the only one with these opinions, I think they shouldn't be included in the article. However, there are a number of observers which did some substantial research and voiced similar opinions. I'm thinking principally of Ed Herman and "his group", but also Jürgen Elsässer and the ISSA (International Strategic Studies Association). Together, they are a big enough minority that their points probably need to be acknowledged in the article.

In my opinion, the section currently gives too much weight to MacKenzie's views. I'd prefer listing all "non-conformists" with some claim to expertise and briefly summarizing the points made by them, while removing all the quotes of MacKenzie. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 13:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

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