Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 7: Difference between revisions

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			== Nuclear high alert ==

			Was it "in response to the military aid to Ukraine" that Putin announced high alert for Russian nuclear forces? --] <sup>]</sup> 02:51, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
			:Not according to the source :/ ] (]) 04:11, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
			:It was in response to western sanctions and military aid AFAIK. If I properly recall. <span style="font-weight: bold" >] ] ]</span> 08:16, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
			:To tell the truth, strategic nuclear forces have only one level of combat readiness - full-alert posture. So Putin's statement doesn't mean any changes in military service regime, it's just disguised threat. He goes mad because his blitzkrieg failed and turns into position war. ] (]) 11:02, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

			:Not by the looks of it. The source used in the article (AP News) says he was "Citing “aggressive statements” by NATO and tough financial sanctions". From many other sources I've seen, it was due to "hostile rhetoric". See for instance https://www.thestatesman.com/world/russia-puts-nuclear-forces-high-combat-alert-1503049044.html Even russian state media such as RT, which many sources (such as above) in turn refer to as their source (https://www.rt.com/russia/550767-putin-nuclear-deterrent-forces-order/) does not elaborate further than that and simple says "hostile rhetoric". Putin may not have elabortated much further on it himself. Due to wp:blp though, it would probably be best if his supposed reason could be quoted as-was. Is there transcript of this announcement somewhere? ] (]) 13:59, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
			::I consider "'hostile’ rhetoric by top NATO officials" and "'aggressive statements' by NATO" to be the same. Could simply be a translation thing. ] (]) 07:10, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Revision as of 11:23, 7 March 2022

This is an archive of past discussions about Russian invasion of Ukraine. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 March 2022 (5)

This edit request to 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change:

Escalation (21–23 February) In the evening of the 21st of February, at 22:35 (UTC−5), Putin announced the recognition of the Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics.

To:

Escalation (21–23 February) In the evening of the 21st of February, at 22:35 (UTC−5), Putin announced the recognition of the Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics. In the same presidential address Putin also claimed that Ukraine never had "real statehood" and was part of Russia. Historian Timothy Snyder argues that is a myth that Putin used to justify the invasion. Similarly, according to Ukranian correspondent Olga Tokariuk, the speech "was perceived as a declaration of war on Ukraine" by Ukranians. 213.31.111.73 (talk) 21:37, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Not done: This is giving undue weight to Putin's justification of the war in a section about escalation. The article already mentions that Putin believes that Russians and Ukrainians were "one people" and that he expressed Russian irredentist views. Pabsoluterince (talk) 22:59, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

References

Kherson offensive main article

Double redirect (Southern Front Offensive -> Southern Front offensive)--2600:1700:4579:B80:AC93:64D2:7D79:C19E (talk) 20:21, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Fixed. — Hydrogenation (talk) 20:30, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Russian casualties per Ukraine and Twitter as a reference

Ukraine has announced that 9,000+ Russian soldiers have been killed, Please do not change this into casualties or losses without a reference. @EkoGraf: Confirmed Twitter accounts of NBC News correspondents should not be considered unreliable, just because Twitter is being used as an intermediary of nbcnews.com. Viewsridge (talk) 17:28, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

@Viewsridge: If its reported by NBC news then an appropriate non-Twitter source can be provided, like you properly did here . Thank you for that. As for the other thing, like I already said, as seen from the Ukrainian government's statements from the previous days, they have not been consistent, referring at some points to both killed and injured, not just killed. Pattern:

1st report - 2,800 "lost" ;
2nd report - 3,500 killed ;
3rd report - 4,300 "lost" ;
4th report - 5,300 losses/killed and wounded ;
5th report - 5,710 lost/killed and wounded ;
6th report - 5,840 lost ;
7th report - 6,000 killed ;
8th report - 7,000 killed ;
9th report - 9,000 killed .

The figures are consistent during their rise, but the 4th, 5th and 6th reports stand out that they do not refer to them as killed, but actually killed and wounded or lost. I also find it interesting that whenever its reported exclusively "killed" it comes from the President's office, but when they say it refers to killed and wounded it comes from the Ukrainian General Staff. In the same day that the General Staff reported 5,840 Russian soldiers were lost (which they previously showed to mean killed and wounded) Zelensky claims nearly 6,000 killed. Due to this uncertainty we should use neutral language until the situation becomes more clear so to not let any potential propaganda information be presented as factual information. I think the best course of action would be a compromise solution that was found for the War in Donbass back in 2014. We agreed then to not include potentially unreliable figures in the infobox, only self-admitted casualty figures or figures presented by a 3rd neutral party. We still included the potentially propaganda claimed figures in the article, but in its main body in the casualties section. EkoGraf (talk) 21:28, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

@EkoGraf: Ok, that makes sense. Thanks. Viewsridge (talk) 07:34, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Map outdated?

Judging by the "detailed map of the Russo-Ukrainian War" which is referred to under the main map shown at the top of the main Misplaced Pages page here, the main map seems to be quite a bit out of date. For example, in the detailed map of the Russo-Ukrainian War, this morning it was showing Russians encircling about 3/4ths of Kiev, but the map on the main page shows Russian presence in only about 1/3rd of Kiev's outskirts. Does anyone know the reason for this apparent issue? Ianbrettcooper (talk) 14:39, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

the oblasts

look I'm a stinky american could we get links to the oblasts when they are mentioned same with the cities. Yes it's me being lazy not wanting to spend an extra 45 seconds to look up where they are on the map. I would be bold and do it my self however this article is under reasonable protection, if its done thank you if not... oi Bruvlad (talk) 16:52, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

I think the general issue is MOS:DUPLINK prescribes that things should not be overlinked. But in this article, with how it's currently being used by its readership, it's reasonable to think (even more-so than normal encyclopaedia articles) people will read some parts and not others, so IMO this article is a good case to ignore that particular MOS guidance for now. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:01, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

I'd agree. In the circumstances, it's a reasonable exception. Laurel Lodged (talk) 17:22, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Wp:In the apocalypse, there are no rules - make it useful now and clean it up when it becomes historical? Kingsif (talk) 22:37, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

"if its done thank you if not... oi" might be my favourite quote from a discussion on Misplaced Pages now DirkJandeGeer (щи) 13:41, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Mostly done now. Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:44, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Detention of children at anti-war action in Moscow

This edit request to 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Russian police detained 7-11 years old children who wanted to lay flowers at the Ukrainian Embassy in Moscow. Police juvenile inspectors threatened their parents with deprivation of parental rights.

It's fucked-up! I feel like a character of dystopia. K8M8S8 (talk) 12:34, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Let's get a picture of the locked up children in the article. Alcibiades979 (talk) 15:01, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. Pabsoluterince (talk) 22:48, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

References

"Moscow Police Detain Children Holding Anti-War Placard". The Moscow Times. 2 March 2022.

Map

Please change the map or its provider. The Russian army does not control the rear and much of the territory in which they advanced. Example of a correct map at the link: https://t.me/ssternenko/3990 Block Baby (talk) 19:05, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

One solution would be to replace this map with a screen capture picture of Template:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map which does not have "shaded areas". Tradedia 23:05, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Please remove section

The first paragraph of the Feb 25 section should be removed. It was most likely included because it was seemingly a case of friendly fire... but friendly fire is bound to happen in all wars. However, if one reads the third (and final) source it can be seen that it is hardly mentioned amidst all the other reporting done by CNN. If the press does not see it as a major incident then we should not either. If it is not agreed that it should be removed, at least change the first sentence to read that there were many blasts heard, not just two. Sectionworker (talk) 21:23, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

OK, no comments. I did further research and found:"CNN has confirmed, however, that the video was actually that of a Ukrainian SU-27 that was shot down by Russia’s anti-air battery in the suburbs, rather than a Russian jet shot down. In an interview with CNN, a senior correspondent said the jet that was shot down was a Ukrainian SU-27." This is what happens when an article can hardly wait to get a daily review of what's going on. Invariably the press makes mistakes in their early sensationalistic reporting but later accuracy fixes are hard to find. In the meantime WP editors have gone on to the the next exciting reports. If an article is going to ignore the ten-year rule it should be willing to do frequent reviews and updates to what it has used. Sectionworker (talk) 16:54, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

"Map" of the invasion

I want to ask all of you: Who the fuxk made this map? Russians are not occupying whole territories, they are just moving through Ukraine. 195.205.75.1 (talk) 06:13, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

@195.205.75.1: The map was created by the contributors to the file File:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.svg (click 'History' to see the full list). Yes, military experts talk about zones of control and the fact that some of the shaded areas are arguably still under Ukranian influence but the map is reasonably accurate given what is publicly known and what can easily be communicated in the visual form given the complexity of a multi-pronged invasion. You are, of course, more than welcome to contribute civil and constructive feedback at File talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.svg. Melmann 07:29, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

One solution would be to replace this map with a screen capture picture of Template:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map which does not have "shaded areas". Tradedia 15:09, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Liquidation of Russian independent radio station Echo of Moscow

Board of directors decided to liquidate Echo of Moscow.

References

"Совет директоров решил ликвидировать «Эхо Москвы»". MediaZona (in Russian). 3 March 2022.

That's known in mafia circles as complying with "an offer that you can't refuse".

Chesapeake77 (talk) 07:55, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Does anybody know how to archive all references to Echo of Moscow contained in Misplaced Pages's articles in automatic mode? Otherwise all these links will become dead. K8M8S8 (talk) 12:29, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Foreign volunteers

According to President Zelensky, 16,000 foreign volunteers have arrived in Ukraine to fight in its defense. Should this number be added to the infobox? Viewsridge (talk) 11:36, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, in my opinion it is worth adding this info. P1221 (talk) 12:15, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

The claim should absolutely be added - as a claim. Not a fact that they're there and fighting until this has been confirmed somehow. I would point to the claim that Slovakia, Bulgaria and Poland was going to deliver 70 jets as an example of why.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/02/28/ukrainian-pilots-arrive-in-poland-to-pick-up-donated-fighter-jets-00012560

It was first reported as a fact (hence the title of that article), that ukranians were already picking up the donated planes.. and within a couple of days the same articles was updated to say that "actually, there aren't even any planes at all". The claim was baseless from the start and yet reported as fact. Misplaced Pages itself, by simply looking at the respective airforces of the listed countries, could be used to show that this aid was never going to materialize. They never had these planes to give. 78.78.200.165 (talk) 16:16, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Removal of the North Crimean Canal section

I have removed the section below as I believe it contains trivial information that do not belong to this overview article. It was also weirdly placed in the ramifications, at the level of 'sanctions' and 'economic impact'. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:34, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

North Crimean Canal

Following Russia's annexation of Crimea, Ukraine blocked the North Crimean Canal, which provided 85% of Crimea's drinking water. On 24 February, the first day of the invasion, Russian troops advancing from Crimea established control over the North Crimean Canal. Sergey Aksyonov, the head of the Republic of Crimea, told local authorities to prepare the canal to receive water from the Dnieper river and resume the supply of water, which was planned for the following day. On 26 February, the concrete dam was reportedly destroyed by an explosion and the water supply was resumed. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:34, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

References

"Crimea's Water Crisis Is an Impossible Problem for Putin". Bloomberg News. 19 March 2021. Archived from the original on 1 March 2022.
"Russia Says Captured Key Water Supply Route to Crimea". The Moscow Times. 25 February 2022. Archived from the original on 1 March 2022.
"Dam leaves Crimea population in chronic water shortage". Al Jazeera. 4 January 2017. Archived from the original on 1 March 2022.
"Russian forces unblock water flow for canal to annexed Crimea, Moscow says". Reuters. 24 February 2022. Archived from the original on 1 March 2022.
"Canal in annexed Crimea to be readied for water from Ukraine's Dnieper, official says". National Post. Reuters. 24 February 2022. Archived from the original on 1 March 2022. Retrieved 24 February 2022.
"Russian troops destroy Ukrainian dam that blocked water to Crimea - RIA". Reuters. 26 February 2022. Archived from the original on 1 March 2022.

About the "crushing tank"

What about the "russian tank" (not a tank, nor russian, nor a "military column") that crushes the vehicle? It has been debunked by analysts, but is still being shown in the article. Some example by the press and fact checkers: , , , Even those who see the complete videos, the place, the facts and the moment in time it happened, realize it and comment about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.55.154.178 (talk) 15:05, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the source. I left the word "tank" as this is still seems to be the reference word used for this incident. I've also specifically avoided declaring the operator of the vehicle as this is still unclear from the sources. Until more is known for certain, I clarified that the vehicle is Russian-made rather than "wholly" Russian. As this line already has other inline citations, I've just added the USA Today source for now in preference to English language sources where possible. Here's the change. --N8 16:05, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it's an AA vehicle. So strictly speaking, not a tank. But that seems secondary to the weasel wording of "russian-made" and "veering across the road to crush it" which of course leads the reader to believe that it was a Russian vehicle that was part of the invasion, driven by a Russian, that ran over a car on purpose. But the verdict of the various fact checkers seem to be that this was part of the Ukranian military and that it was an accident. I don't suggest changing it to "Ukrainian AA vehicle ran over a car" though as that also makes it appear like somebody wanted to run it over. Between those two, I would suggest simply removing it. All indications are that it is a traffic accident, it simply happened to involve a military vehicle in time of war.78.78.200.165 (talk) 17:05, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Reviewed this again. Agree it needed further improvement. Updates have been made at Timeline of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine since the section was moved there. Because this event was widely shared and additional details may still emerge with time I avoided removing it entirely. According to the "France24" source experts seem to agree that clarity is lacking; not that it was definitely an accident. --N8 17:50, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:52, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 March 2022 (2)

This edit request to 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

to include photographs of Russian military equipment captured and destroyed, to include photo of Scuttled Ukrainian flagship in the harbour, to include more information on weapons being provided by the west, to provide more detailed timeline of events in areas within Ukraine. 81.2.177.196 (talk) 20:17, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Maybe you can provide a list of references. (Misplaced Pages is written by volunteers, not paid workers. It means that nothing happens unless one does it by oneself, or at least helps.) · · · Omnissiahs hierophant (talk) 20:20, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. BSMRD (talk) 20:31, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Financial Crisis

In the introduction paragraph it says:

   including new sanctions imposed on Russia, triggering a financial crisis.

It isn't clear from the sentence that Russia is suffering a financial crisis. It could say ", triggering a financial crisis in Russia."

It could also say the sanctions are causing widewspread financial uncertainty to many countries, due to the sanctions, but that would likely need a lot of citations etc. to document then impact on imports, exports, etc.

MeekMark (talk) 20:53, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

The statement isn't properly sourced either. "The invasion received widespread international condemnation, including new sanctions imposed on Russia, triggering a financial crisis." There should be sources there but there isn't.

Next comes "Global protests took place against the invasion, while protests in Russia were met with mass arrests." Source 69 here deals with the sanctions. 70 with the arrests. So even if we're keeping the text as is, it should be "The invasion received widespread international condemnation, including new sanctions imposed on Russia, triggering a financial crisis. Global protests took place against the invasion, while protests in Russia were met with mass arrests."

That said "financial crisis" is not mentioned in the source. Only the sanctions. We should probably not say "triggering a financial crisis" until such is a fact (and then add a source for it). What can be said now is only what effects are seen now (and thus sourced), such as the ruble losing value for example.

So how about:

"The invasion received widespread international condemnation, including new sanctions imposed on Russia, causing the ruble to plummet. Global protests took place against the invasion, and protests in Russia were met with mass arrests." ?

78.78.143.46 (talk) 00:35, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Invasion section + fronts

Today's changes removed much of the material about the invasion itself, replacing it with unsourced summaries. While some structure other than a chronological one is indeed needed, could perhaps someone more capable do it? Thanks. WikiHannibal (talk) 21:41, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Include Merchandise to Help Ukrainian Victims of War

Example : Snake Island Go Fuck Yourself Shirts

I wouldn’t agree here; this is an online encyclopedia, not a shopping mall. We aren’t here for advertisements. 2601:802:8180:3790:89F1:EEE9:A3BC:24DD (talk) 23:44, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

This is correct. Misplaced Pages is not here to right great wrongs. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:47, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

"Wikimedia says it ‘will not back down’ after Russia threatens Misplaced Pages block"

Not sure if this should be added to the press template at the top of this page (and/or others?):

https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/3/22960007/russia-wikipedia-wikimedia-foundation-censorship-demand

---Another Believer _(Talk) 20:17, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

If we go by the book, it doesn't mention this WP-article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:18, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

@Another Believer, added at Misplaced Pages:Press_coverage_2022#March. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:36, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:42, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Qatar

Just to put some balance to the investment withdrawals, heres qatar. Oddly al jazeera has been markedly different from the govt itself, but this is off al jazeera, which ive not seen there.

Also, "see also" can use a link to the Georgia war since this is eerily parralel in the build up, entrance and sakkazhvili/zelensky reactions changing from agressive to defensive.78.109.69.246 (talk) 11:55, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

It's a good idea, however, it doesn't appear to be very notable. If it becomes more widely covered then it I would agree with the inclusion. Pabsoluterince (talk) 08:42, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

cbignore

Why is {{cbignore}} being added to every ref? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:58, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

@ProcrastinatingReader I had a look on WikiBlame. Special:Diff/1074118070 provides part of the answer.

@Rlink2 are you able to shed light on why this tag ({{cbignore}}) is needed? Also, while we're at it, is there a reason for using "ghostarchive.org" instead of the Internet Archive? (the latter is, as I understand it, quite well established?). Your input would be appreciated.

Local Variable (talk) 15:18, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

@Local Variable cbignore fixes a phab bug with iabot.

To answer your second question: Usually when preemptive archiving refs at large on articles like these, I would use IABot (which would use archive.org), but alas this article is too big for IABot. IAbot was run on the article when it was smaller though. I have a workaround for this which will extract the URLs for archiving for me to place manually, but archive.org has enabled CORS on their website again, hence the usage of other sites. Archive.today has CORS disabled too but the site hasn't been working for me recently, preseumbly due to the events the article in question is describing. Rlink2 (talk) 16:02, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

@Rlink2 I see, so effectively it avoids an issue with IABot. Thanks for providing the detailed response. Local Variable (talk) 16:08, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

@Rlink2: what phab bug? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:45, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

@Rlink2 I'd also be interested to know the phab bug. An alternative approach may use {{bots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} at the top of the article, rather than a {{cbignore}} tag for each archive reference. That would seem cleaner and could have a HTML comment indicating its purpose. Local Variable (talk) 14:27, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

@Local Variable

@ProcrastinatingReader

Phab bug tracked here: phab:T292816

An alternative approach may use {{bots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} at the top of the article, rather than a tag for each archive reference. Ah yes, i forgot about this. IAbot can't even run properly on this article anyway, so I can do this later today. Rlink2 (talk) 17:32, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Added a bots-deny directive with a comment and now also cleaned up all of the cbignore usages Phiarc (talk) 19:28, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Hetman Sahaidachny Problem

Saw that someone said they updated the Air and Naval section-they did but as with their comment the link to the frigate now links to a random sailing yacht. 2601:802:8180:3790:89F1:EEE9:A3BC:24DD (talk) 23:24, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

whoops, my fault, see someone has now fixed Ilenart626 (talk) 23:56, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

¨¨Putin Personality Disorder¨

Source: https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/putin-personality-disorder/

The keyword here is "opinions". --Whydoesitfeelsogood (talk) 02:06, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Apart from being an op-ed, as I said about the line "Before the invasion, in an attempt to provide a casus belli, Putin accused Ukraine of committing genocide against Russian speakers in Ukraine" in the article - motives are by their nature unknowable because they cannot be verified in any way. It doesn't matter what source one can find that claims to know them. It's simply impossible. One cannot both follow the principle of verifiability and state somebodies motivations and thinking as if this was some kind of fact. 78.78.143.46 (talk) 03:00, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

As with Trump and Biden, no wp:blp even protects Putin. Slatersteven (talk) 10:23, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Belarus Refugees

This may have already been discussed... but is there any available & reliable information of any Ukrainian refugees that have travelled/fled to Belarus...? 81.108.244.153 (talk) 01:51, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Saw a pretty reliable source but forgot what it was. I remember it being in the thousands, 2 to 5 thousand. Same source also mention refugees that went into Russia. Will update if I chance upon it again Nebakin (talk) 02:00, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Operation "Mongoose Leap"

Hi, did anyone ever hear anything of this??

Translation from Russian:

"The video message about the forced evacuation of residents of the occupied territories of Donbass, which was made public today, February 18, by the leaders of the terrorists, was recorded in advance. Public figure Sergei Sternenko announced this on Telegram."

""I discovered that, according to the metadata, the video about the 'evacuation' with the head of the occupation administration of the Russian Federation in the occupied part of the Luhansk region, Pasechnik, was recorded at least 2 days before publication, on February 16, 2022. That is, even before, according to the Russian version, February 17 "Ukraine launched an attack," Sternenko said and noted that this proves that this forced displacement of the population is a pre-planned operation of the Russian occupiers."

--Whydoesitfeelsogood (talk) 01:35, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes. Renat 01:55, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Add? --Whydoesitfeelsogood (talk) 01:58, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

And? Do we say this was not planned in advance? What dio you think this tells us? Slatersteven (talk) 10:25, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Request to add information 1.

(1)Please add this information in "Foreign military support to Ukraine" section: On March 2, Ukrainian defense minister Oleksii Reznikov announced the arrival of additional TB2 drones. The Gentle Daffodil (talk) 07:51, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

References

"Ukraine receives new batch of Bayraktar TB-2 drones from Turkey". Aero Time Hub. 2 March 2022.

Done--TZubiri (talk) 17:16, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Infobox conflict duration is wrong

The conflict started less than 1 week and 1 day ago, but the infobox claims it's been going on for 1 week and 2 days. Sunkcaves (talk) 00:40, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

The invasion started early on the 24th of February, so today on the 4th of March, it has been ongoing for nine days (24th, 25th, 26th, 27th, 28th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th) or one week and two days. Phiarc (talk) 16:09, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

I don't know how else to put this, but that's not how time works. If 24 hours pass, we've visited two dates on the calendar but only one day of time has passed. Sunkcaves (talk) 19:10, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

What time would you claim the conflict started? I can find out what time the infobox is based off.--TZubiri (talk) 07:16, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Humanitarian corridors

I propose adding that Russia and Ukraine are making a deal to allow civilians to pass through humanitarian corridors to evacuate. They have both agreed on a need to create the corridors in their talks. It seems notable and has been reported in several independent media outlets. Perhaps we could add a sentence about it under the "Humanitarian impact" section, perhaps under "Refugees." Perhaps we could say "On March 3, The Russian and Ukrainian governments agreed on the need to create humanitarian corridors for civilians to evacuate." I would welcome any suggestions of how better to word it, or general thoughts on whether we should even include it.JMM12345 (talk) 06:01, 4 March 2022 (UTC)JMM12345

References

U.K. should be listed as a supporting party

I think my previous topic was not clear. So, I'll limit this to a specific case: if Belarus is listed as a supporting party, then the U.K. should as well.

	United Kingdom	Belarus
Stationed Ukrainian/Russian troops in their territory	No	Yes
Stationed their troops in Ukrainian/Russian territory w/a military function	Yes	Maybe
Trained Ukrainian/Russian troops	Yes	No
Gave recon support	Yes	Yes
Arms Support	Yes	Maybe
Financial Support	Yes	Maybe

References

^ "Ukraine: PM weighs up bigger troop offer amid Russia border crisis". BBC. 30 January 2022. Archived from the original on 6 February 2022. Retrieved 28 February 2022.
"Large-scale aerial surveillance effort underway". 23 February 2022. Archived from the original on 25 February 2022. Retrieved 28 February 2022.
Faulconbridge, Guy (2022-02-25). "Britain's spy chief claims intelligence scoop on Putin's invasion of Ukraine". Reuters. Retrieved 2022-03-02.
^ "UK support for Ukraine following Russia's invasion: Foreign Secretary's statement 28 February 2022". GOV.UK. Archived from the original on 28 February 2022. Retrieved 2022-02-28.

For these reasons, if we're going to list Belarus as a supporting party for Russia, then we should be listing the United Kingdom as a supporting party for Ukraine. Fephisto (talk) 00:35, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Maybe indeed. I would look at precedent. Take for example https://en.wikipedia.org/Syrian_civil_war .. Under support for "interim government"/syrian opposition, a number of countries is listed. Qatar, US, Saudi Arabia, UK, France, Lybia. Most of this support was indeed material or financial rather than any active participation in combat. So there seems like there might be precedent for it. At the same time, I'm not sure if there is any established consistent pattern / policy in regards to this. There should be (one should always have one standard, not several) but there may not be. And the syrian civil war article may be the one that isn't consistent with articles about other conflicts. Someone might have to dig through a bunch.. 78.78.143.46 (talk) 00:48, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

I think this is an exceptional nonsense. Did UK host an army to attack Moscow or Kyiv? Belorus hosted an army to attack Kyiv. Did someone fire rockets from UK territory to attack one of these countries? I do agree though that Belarus is actually a belligerent, not just a supporter. My very best wishes (talk) 01:15, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Ground invasion of Iraq was launched from Kuwait, but yet Kuwait isn't even listed as a belligerent on the wiki page. Nebakin (talk) 01:36, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

That is a good point w.r.t. Kuwait not being listed as a "supporter" Belligerent for the Iraq War. In fact, that page is quite telling, as Spain is also listed as a 'supporter' despite not even having a source listing them as an arms suppliers at the very least, as with what's going on in the discussion above. Fephisto (talk) 02:55, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

@My very best wishes:Please keep in mind I agree with you that Belarus should be on that list, and I also want to emphasize that I'm discussing this here as opposed to just editing the article outright to try to reach a consensus and maintain good faith here. That said, I apologize, but I don't think it's "exceptional nonsense." To explain my point a bit more, is Belarus offering recon and potential targeting fire support for Russian troops IN a currently active battlefield? If you're offering support that is a traditional military function, then surely that's above and beyond even quartering troops, correct? At least, that's a bit more of explanation of where my head is coming from here.

References

"Three British and American surveillance aircraft are in the air over Ukraine". 2022-02-23. Retrieved 2022-03-03.

Fephisto (talk) 02:32, 4 March 2022 (UTC)


Country	UK	Belarus
Sent their own citizens to die in the war?	No	Yes

Your table is missing this. Unless I am terribly mistaken Belarus is directly a belligerent, more than a supporter. UK is a supporter, although it may be contested.--TZubiri (talk) 07:13, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

link to 2022 boycott of Russia and Belarus

In the intro of the article 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, update/change:

The invasion received widespread international condemnation, including new sanctions imposed on Russia, triggering a financial crisis.

to:

The invasion received widespread international condemnation, including new sanctions imposed on Russia, triggering a financial crisis in Russia and a massive international boycott of Russia and Belarus.

Thank you. S 0524 (talk) 08:57, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Support. The boycott article lacks a prose overview, but there are plenty of WP:RS and the size of the list is massive. We don't formally need support/oppose arguments, but since this is the WP:LEAD of an article with an overwhelming number of interested editors and readers, I'll let others take the initiative to guess how many comments are needed to judge the likely consensus. Boud (talk) 10:58, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Because this article is directly linked to the main invasion article I don't think voting is needed to add a reference here, so I just did, though at a later point in the paragraph so it goes: Condemnation - sanctions - financial crisis - refugee crisis - global protests - boycott - aid, which seems about the right order to me. Phiarc (talk) 16:21, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

US accusations

I recently added a Dec. 3 2021 WaPo article about an accusation by US intel that Russia was planning to invade. This was reverted. I think it's important to show that the accusations started by at least that date. Adoring nanny (talk) 13:29, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

The lede needs to be concise; 2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#US_release_of_invasion_plans, not so much. Pabsoluterince (talk) 14:12, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

All information added to this article must be presented from a NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW

I am talking about the page "2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine". I find that, from the first lines (description, introduction the point of view is clearly NOT neutral. And I understand, it is hard to make it neutral, when it is about war. Each country "knows who's right". The page is presented in a "Russophobic" point of view ("Indeed ... frequently engage in strategies of manipulation through deception involving exaggeration, omission, and misdirection") The Misplaced Pages is written by people. Just volunteers. They write what they think. But I think it would be more neutral to say (in a visible place!) that this is the point of view of a country (US, in this case). Also I want to say that it is wrong to lock that page (or parts) as if 100% certain and known by all. Even proven facts in neutral articles (f.e. blue is a colour, Tchaikovsky is a composer, the Sun is a star...) aren't locked. 2A00:1FA1:8262:30AA:0:60:51B8:1B01 (talk) 07:48, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Any specific claims? Or just rhetoric on "russophobia"? K8M8S8 (talk) 08:33, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi, first of all, many editors are not Americans. Secondly, any proposed revision is welcome, but it has to be substantiated and well sourced. I kindly invite you to make specific requests, possibly hrough the "edit extended-protected" template. P1221 (talk) 08:54, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Since Misplaced Pages is banned in Russia/Moscow, I'm uncertain why you are concerned about "locked articles"?50.111.36.47 (talk) 12:27, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

IP user :1B01, see WP:V and WP:NPOV § Due and undue weight. Feel free to contribute, citing reliable supporting sources expressing differing viewpoints. If an article is locked to editing by unregistered users, feel free to register for a free Misplaced Pages account. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 12:45, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

NPOV doesn't mean that you look at "both sides" and present the midpoint. That's WP:FALSEBALANCE. Phiarc (talk) 15:04, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Referring to the views of a government of a major country (ie Russia, which is in turn also supported, or partly supported, in their view by other major countries such as China) a mere minority view might be to strech the limits of that term "just a tad bit" (that's sarcasm - it's really pushing it to the limit) That said, I don't think this article is as biased as claimed here. Calling it "russophobic" is also pushing it. Hard. 78.78.143.46 (talk) 17:31, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

No, we repeat what RS say. And as said above, we do not represent both sides of a one sided debate to ain't a false balance (and by the way I am not American). Slatersteven (talk) 15:13, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Does this constitute due weight/ reliable sourcing?

I have already reverted three times on this page, otherwise I would have reverted this already. I am interested if this sentence should remain in, be removed or edited. 2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#Russian_military_build-ups:

'V' has been spotted as well.

References

Pabsoluterince (talk) 05:17, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Unless we have some clue as to what 'V' means, then no. Mr rnddude (talk) 05:22, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Maybe this ? E Eng 16:54, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Mmm this is great. Pabsoluterince (talk) 04:04, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Invasion of Moldova?

Shouldn't we mention this in a way or another, despite nothing being official? Here are English and Romanian sources. I added it yesterday, but it got deleted despite one user at first accepting it and making some corrections.

https://nypost.com/2022/03/01/belarus-dictator-alexander-lukashenko-appeared-to-show-russian-plans-to-invade-moldova-through-ukraine/

https://news.yahoo.com/belarus-president-lukashenko-appears-stand-101548955.html

https://observatornews.ro/extern/va-fi-invadata-si-republica-moldova-lukashenko-ar-fi-prezentat-o-harta-in-care-ucraina-e-impartita-in-patru-transnistria-face-parte-din-una-dintre-aceste-zone-460990.html

Lupishor (talk) 15:41, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

It's a bit speculative, so I can see why (at this time) it should be left out. Slatersteven (talk) 15:51, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Has this been reported on by more established newspapers/media than the ones listed? NYPost is a tabloid and Yahoo is a news aggregator, this particular article is lifted from Fox – neither have good reputations. Jr8825 • Talk 16:26, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Reliable UK press reporting on it:

The Independent Ukraine crisis: Belarus leader may have inadvertently revealed Russian invasion map on TV
The Telegraph Bumbling Belarusian leader lets slip Vladimir Putin’s secret plan for more attacks
iNews Will Russia invade Moldova? What Lukashenko’s ‘battle map’ could indicate about Putin’s plans after Ukraine

Unfortunately I'm not in a position to evaluate non UK sources, beyond looking for their entries on RSN or RSP. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:50, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

It’s been reported in multiple sources, and is no question it’s a fact that Lukashenka showed a map that might show an invasion route into Moldova (I must say there’s a weird colour change in the line), and it could be mentioned in this article. We should not read anything else into it, like “~~there’s an invasion plan~~.” —Michael Z. 17:31, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

This is interesting. It shows the map used by Lukashenko, and the map shows the strike to occupy Moldova from the south of Ukraine. The Russian forces made a lot of "progress" on the south of Ukraine, but they probably need to take the city of Odessa before striking Moldova. Also, the division of the entire Ukraine territory into 4 zones of occupation on the map is significant. But one probably needs a little more coverage for inclusion. My very best wishes (talk) 18:09, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Yes, I think this now should be included because of coverage here . My very best wishes (talk) 18:17, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Is this other source considered reliable? . For further backing of the claim. Super Ψ Dro 18:27, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

I think The Week is fine. Definitely superior to tabloids, my guesstimate is that it's probably about the same standard in terms of reputation as the New Statesman. Jr8825 • Talk 18:45, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Opposed to inclusion, The Hill isn't a great source either btw but I'd be opposed even if CNN/NYT posted it. It's WP:CRYSTAL with a hint of fear-mongering and speculation. Opposed to inclusion until either it happens or government officials start raising the alarm (rather than tabloids raising the alarm). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:35, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

This is not a WP:CRYSTAL. This is a fact that the Belarus president was standing in front of map indicating Moldova invasion plans as multiple RS say. That is significant because Belarus is an active participant of the invasion. Hence the coverage. EU just sanctioned 22 Belarusian officials and military for involvement in Russian invasion of Ukraine. My very best wishes (talk) 22:33, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

EU just sanctioned 22 Belarusian officials and military for involvement in Russian invasion of Ukraine. which is relevant to an alleged future invasion of Moldova how...?

If this were a credible rumour I'm pretty sure US/UK intelligence would be ringing alarm bells, as they did for the Ukraine invasion and various specific events relating to it. There's no way we should be increasing fear based on speculation that seems to originate from the Daily Mail (according to The Week), before spreading through the tabloids and then into culture and political magazines, all based on a supposed interpretation of an old map. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:18, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

I note that a Moldovan official has now commented on the topic . Super Ψ Dro 21:59, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
Am I missing something? Looking at that video, it seemed to me that the forces were coming out of Moldova, into the coastal area of Ukraine west of Odessa. Presumably that's Russian or Transnistrian forces from inside the breakaway Moldavian region of Transnistria entering Ukraine - presumably to enlarge the territory of the breakaway Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic to include sea access. Moldovia hasn't had control of that breakaway region for about 30 years, and Russian troops have been there for decades. I don't see any indication on that map of any forces entering Moldovia from anywhere. Nfitz (talk) 22:26, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it is quite obvious that Russian Army would (I am not saying "will") attack Moldova from Transnistria, rather than from the occupied Ukrainian territory. Does it make any difference? But they probably will not attack before finishing their "business" in Ukraine, which becomes more and more difficult for them with every passing day. My very best wishes (talk) 16:23, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Rename please the article

It is not good to tell 'germans' instead of 'nazi'. In the same way it is not good to tell 'russian invision' while it is just one president's army. Russians are in most keep anti-war side. But most scared to declare their position. Simple russians does not see ukraine enemy. Sory my bad english. PavelSI (talk) 23:28, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Although "some" of the Russian people oppose this invasion, this is still an invasion by the country of Russia and the Russian military into Ukraine. Oppose this request to move the article. Natg 19 (talk) 23:40, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

- As for me, the more correct to name the article 'Putin's invasion of Ukraine (2022)' while it is just his own war. .... English language does not distinguish details: russian ethnic group and Rossia'ns (meaning Russian Federation attribute). So You should be more correct. County is Russian Federation to be exact, not shorten it in this case. Russian Federation mean the Federal govenment and oficial forces which make the Federal control. And please mention them as agressors, not 'russians'. And should to note russian ethnic group is just one of multiple in 'Federation'. For example, my father has never been russian while being RF-resident till his end - he was ukrainian by ethnic, so my own family-name is ukrainian. And in return, there are numerous russians in Ukraine and they does not invade. And not call federal troops 'russians' while there are chechens for example. If so, write at least '2022 Russian Federation invasion of Ukraine' to note it is NOT an ethnic conflict. PavelSI (talk) 00:40, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

An RM was already attempted for this and failed. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:11, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Regardless of how you feel about this invasion, it is an invasion by the Russian Federation, which is commonly shorted to Russia - our page on the English Misplaced Pages about the country is simply titled Russia. "Russian invasion of Ukraine" does not imply an ethnic conflict, but one country invading another. Natg 19 (talk) 01:14, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

- It is bad. Article name is incorrect. PavelSI (talk) 00:40, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

In russian, my english is too bad... Попробуйте донести идею. Русскоязычная статья названа абсолютно корректно - Российское вторжение. А не русское. Это нейтральное название. А англоязычная статья - названа совершенно некорректно. Не надо разжигать ненависть между русскими и украинцами. Не 'русские' вторгаются, а Россия как государство и политический режим. PavelSI (talk) 00:56, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello Pavel. Perhaps the distinction you are able to make in idiomatic Russian is between "Russia's invasion" (the state) and "the Russians' invasion" (lots of individuals). In idiomatic English, "the Russian invasion" is the normal phrase which could mean either, but in this context it means the former. If we wanted to mean individuals, which we do not, we would change the title somehow. Google translate uses "Russian" for both Российское and русское. Mirokado (talk) 01:43, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Am sympathetic, and I would be in favour of making the title more specific: “2022 Russian Federation invasion of Ukraine,” making it clear that it is the Russian state, under its government, that is persecuting this war, and not the Russian citizenry, or the ethnic nation, or something else. However, the great majority of reliable sources use “Russia” for the name of the state, and our guidelines are to follow RS’s. —Michael Z. 06:00, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Wiki is a powerful resource to change humans opinion, even the 'great majority'. Wiki to declare trueth, not common opinion and common fake. As for me, it is "Putin's invasion" to be the best tittle. PavelSI (talk) 08:24, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Sorry this is a Russian invasion, ordered by a democratically elected leader, who is up for reelection if a couple of years or so. Slatersteven (talk) 11:26, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Democratically elected? Great joke! To tell the truth, Putin is a bloodthirsty dictator, but it doesn't have any significance in the context of the article. Russians (I mean all Russian citizens, not only ethnic group) could overthrow him but they have not yet done this. I realize that it is very very very difficult but it should not be the problem for the rest of the world. Germans could overthrow Hitler and prevented Second World War but they were unable (or unwilling) to do so, and subsequently they had been repenting for many years. K8M8S8 (talk) 16:16, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Russians cannot protest. Previos protest suffocate in blud and Europe not protect us. PavelSI (talk) 13:41, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Note the tanks (on the image) shooting our parlament. Can we resist the tanks? People are scared to declare their opinion in the internet. PavelSI (talk) 13:51, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

I don't think this would be a great change, per WP:COMMONNAME the most recognized name of the country should be used, not the 'official' name. I don't know about you, but I personally have never heard "Russian Federation" in a conversation, and the vast majority of news sites use "Russia" or "Russian Invasion", almost never saying "Russian Federation" MutantZebrea999 (talk) 15:39, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Why? Naming it after the nation appears to be the usual practice, ie precedent. Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/German_invasion_of_Denmark_(1940) and https://en.wikipedia.org/United_States_invasion_of_Afghanistan A 'compromise' would be to do as here https://en.wikipedia.org/2003_invasion_of_Iraq and call it "2022 invasion of Ukraine". But is there a point to that change? It would seem that the invasion of Iraq was called "2003 invasion of Iraq" because it was done by a multi-national coalition (even though the US was the dominant party in it) And if anything, that article should really be called the 2003 US invasion of Iraq regardless because of how dominant the US was in the coaliation. Here however, there's only Russia and Ukraine. 78.78.143.46 (talk) 20:10, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

I suspect that the reason it is not the US invasion is that there was a coalition (of two and a half countries, but a coalition none the less.)Mozzie (talk) 10:26, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

RfC: Should we begin migrating reactions to the dedicated reactions page?

I've started cutting down some of the reactions section, but there's a ton of stuff with questionable relevance to the article. I propose that we whinny it down to the reaction of the US, EU, China, NATO, UN and India and get rid of the rest. It's wonderful that Transnistria believes in peace and that Kazakhstan has offered to mediate but I'm not sure if this is relevant to the article, especially as the article has gotten too long. Alcibiades979 (talk) 16:26, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

I deleted/moved a lot of content to the dedicated page. I also added subheadings under countries. The NATO section doesn't really cover the US in depth so the US can then be added under the countries section, and Germany could be added as well. Countries has China and India for obvious reasons, I also left Kazakhstan since Russia requested Kazakh troops and Kazakhstan denied the request which seems pertinent. I also cut down the Religious leaders section by about half. Works still needed: EU reaction can be added to, OSCE can be subtracted from as can Entertainment and sporting organizations. Ultimately it seems like the reactions should be somewhat pertinent to the war. The reactions of the US and China for instance are very pertinent. The reactions of those who would have little impact on the wars outcome seem like they should instead go to the dedicated page. Ie China can affect the wars out come, China stays, Serbia most likely will not affect the wars outcome so it goes to dedicated page. Alcibiades979 (talk) 20:05, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Agree and thanks. Good solid WP:10YT editing there. Lots of stuff gets added because it seems relevant in the moment, but that isn't really historically relevant form a long term perspective. Thanks again.Mozzie (talk) 10:22, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Kazakhstan's defence ministry made an official comment on its Telegram blog where it denied that Russia had ever requested troops from them

NATO (Primarily USA and Germany) have supplied a plethora of munitions but are not mentioned as allies

Add “Munitions support from NATO” please 130.184.252.76 (talk) 18:01, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

There is no NATO request that Germany deliver anything. NATO is a defensive alliance. No NATO state was attacked. There were also no official NATO supplies delivered from Germany to Ukraine. Germany's deliveries are not NATO deliveries. Some of the weapons come from very old stocks.

The German government (as well as the opposition) distinguish between types of ammunition and types of weapons. Weapons are supplied that were optimized to destroy war equipment, but not weapons that were optimized to kill as many people as possible directly. A distinction is made also between Putin's war against civilians and military units. It is assumed that the delivery of small arms could lead to escalation in Russian army's dealings with civilians. It was decided to supply armor-piercing weapons and anti-aircraft weapons, but not small arms.

Already delivered (officially): Response of the 'German Ministry of Defense' to an inquiry from a public television station ('Zweites Deutsches Fernsehen', Public broadcasting TV; March 2, 2022, translated from German): Germany's announced arms deliveries for Ukraine have arrived. The material has been handed over to the Ukrainian side, a spokeswoman for the German Defense Ministry said Wednesday in response to a request. The German government had announced over the weekend that it would deliver 1,000 anti-tank weapons and 500 surface-to-air missiles. Source (German): https://web.archive.org/web/20220303034308/https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/cherson-kiew-russland-ukraine-krieg-100.html

And (current discussions, March 4, 2022); There are currently discussions about 2,700 "Strela" anti-aircraft missiles, which originate from old NVA stocks. : The Ministry of Economy has approved the delivery of 2700 "Strela" anti-aircraft missiles. However, these old weapon systems are said to have quality deficiencies. A Bundeswehr press release from January literally says: "The missiles of the type 'Strela' have been blocked for use since 2012." There is talk of micro-cracks in the propellant charge of the ammunition, of mold on the packaging boxes. Source (German; „Tagesschau“, Public broadcasting TV, March 4, 2022): https://web.archive.org/web/20220304093458/https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/europa/ukraine-deutschland-waffenlieferung-101.html

NATO; EU; Schengen; private people: To divide the world into NATO, Non-NATO or states in general is a far away from living in Europe. Switzerland (e.g.) is located in Europe, but is not part of the European Union, which was also founded to overcome nationalism. The borders between nation states are open. There are no border controls within the European Union and other states caused by Schengen Agreement. European Citizens are not locked up. You have to distinguish private citizens from state initiatives because the state cannot know what individual citizens are doing. (e.g. See: Mathias Rust) No government or NATO can control every private individual.

For example, the Ukrainian border is only 700 km away from Germany. There are currently a number of privately-organized convoys driving through Ukraine, consisting of a few vehicles, each taking a few dozen private Ukrainian women and children out of the country in private cars. At the wheel of the car is sometimes a German priest on a private mission, bringing refugees from Odessa to Germany. These private persons will probably not have informed the German government, nor have they probably "officially" approached the Ukrainian government, and they probably have not asked anyone, because the Ukrainian government certainly has quite different problems at the moment. (Where to register officially in southern Ukraine? Is the building where an office of the official 'Ukrainian tourist information' was located still standing?)

Another example: There are many millions of private handguns and rifles in the European Union. The state authorities will probably not be able to influence their whereabouts. Therefore, many rifles or pistols from the European Union will probably turn up in Ukraine sooner or later. If a European hunter tells you he lost his gun in some forest, no one can check the story anyway.

It is important to note, however, that so far no handguns from state stocks have been officially delivered from Germany to Ukraine, and no state-organized groups are operating in Ukraine. But of course: No European state is likely to be able to control small-arms shipments from private individuals to Ukrainians. (E.G.: Switzerland (NON-EU) or Austria are not part of NATO but accept of 'Schengen-agreement'. Anyone can drive from a 'Schengen country' to an Ukrainian border without beeing controlled) --Eneliting (talk) 10:27, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Unless NATO is explicitly taking actions as that organisation (and not the individual actions of its constituent states), then these are not the actions of NATO and to claim otherwise is not accurate. If anything, it is WP:SYNTH. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:59, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

I see it exactly the same way. That is why I have given sources that quote "German ministries". In Germany, there are no statements available on NATO deliveries, only on arms deliveries explicitly provided by the Federal Republic of Germany. Regards (Sorry, but my post slipped because I didn't find a "reply button".) --Eneliting (talk) 13:34, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Horlivka Offensive evidence.

One of the sources saying the city is occupied by the UAF is from a pro-Ukrainian news outlet whose source is a blogger? That doesn't seem very reliable. Nebakin (talk) 01:38, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I added that one from the Ukrainian WP. Apparently it wasn't blacklisted, plus the source itself is in Russian so I doubt it's disinformation. --Whydoesitfeelsogood (talk) 01:40, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Just because it might not be disinformation doesn't mean it is reliable. Nebakin (talk) 01:47, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Well, I can't find another RS. The others state Horlivka is under siege, but not yet taken by Ukrainians. --Whydoesitfeelsogood (talk) 01:59, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Then perhaps it is better to remove it until the UA or RU MOD/military depts makes a statement. Nebakin (talk) 02:02, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Okay, how about we keep it with for at least until the Ukrainian morning? --Whydoesitfeelsogood (talk) 02:05, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

That or dubious source. Nebakin (talk) 04:34, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Is the blogger identified and if so, does said blogger in turn present a source? If he does, then maybe see what that source is and if that is usable instead? If claims from a blogger is the primary source of the news outlet, then the outlet should not be regarded as reliable in this case either. All the secondary source could be used for is as a source that the primary (ie blogger) made this claim, not that the claim is true. 78.78.143.46 (talk) 20:25, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Belarus as a belligerent

Belarus allowing foreign military access for the purposes of an invasion is an act of war on behalf of Belarus. As is allowing missiles to be launched from Belarusian territory. In addition, Ukraine reports Belarusian soldiers in Ukraine.

This point has been put forward numerous times on this talk page and there was consensus that Belarus was a belligerent. Please change Belarus from "supporter" back to "Belligerent" in the infobox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lluq (talk • contribs) 21:15, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Where is this consensus? Regardless, if a country is a belligerent in a conflict.. should that really be a question of opinion and consensus (we should add any nation if enough people agree to it?) and not more of a yes/no question based on a simple criteria: Are they taking part in military action, yes or no? If yes, they're a belligerent. If no, then they're not. Afaik, a nation allowing another to pass troops through their territory is not regarded as making them a belligerent in said war. Consider Sweden allowing German troops to pass through their territory during world war 2 as an example. 78.78.143.46 (talk) 22:37, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

During the Midsummer crisis Sweden violated its neutrality, by allowing German troops to pass. Violating neutrality does not automatically make a state a co-belligerent. For a state to become a co-belligerent, at least one of the following 3 conditions much be met.

The state declares war
The state participates in hostilities to a significant extent
The state systematically or substantially violates its duties of impartiality and non-participation.

I am not a lawyer, but it is blatantly obvious that Belarus is much closer to being a co-belligerent than Sweden ever was during WWII. That said, the conclusion to this, much be based in sources by actual legal experts. BFG (talk) 23:06, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, closer as in Belarus has far closer relations with Russia than Germany and Sweden had with each other, with Belarus speaking out in clear support of Russia. And that's likely to matter. But the example more was more in reponse to the sole claim that letting someone invade through your territory is an act of war in itself and then that makes you a belligerent - that does not seem to have any precedent.

"That said, the conclusion to this, much be based in sources by actual legal experts.". Agreed. At the very least, I really don't think it can be decided upon by opinion. There must be some kind of standardised, neutral criteria. 78.78.143.46 (talk) 23:29, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

See "Role of Belarus/belligerent" in Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 2. According to paragraph (f) of the article 3 of the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3314 (XXIX) of 14 December 1974, the action of a State in allowing its territory, which it has placed at the disposal of another State, to be used by that other State for perpetrating an act of aggression against a third State, is qualified as an act of aggression. The head of State Border Guard Service of Ukraine accused Belarus of the conduct of war against Ukraine, in his official letter to the head of State Border Committee of the Republic of Belarus, referring to the fact that Russian troops use Belarusian territory for their invasion of Ukraine. But the definition described in United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3314 is not binding on the United Nations Security Council. Russia vetoed Security Council resolution that denounces its invasion of Ukraine.

But I think we can consider Belarus as belligerent because United Nations General Assembly Resolution of 2 March 2022 established "the involvement of Belarus in this unlawful use of force against Ukraine" (see paragraph 10). United Nations General Assembly resolutions are not binding, but it does not have a significance in the context of the article. The fact of condemnation is enough.

Yes, I think this answers the question. It does not matter if a resolution was binding. We can say that Belarus is a belligerent in the conflict according to resolution by United Nations General Assembly My very best wishes (talk) 16:33, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

References

"UN resolution against Ukraine invasion: Full text". Al Jazeera. 3 March 2022.

Babi Yar

"On 3 March, three Personal Representatives of the OSCE Chairmanship: rabbi Andrew Baker, dr Regina Polak and ambassador Mehmet Paçacı condemned the Russian missile attack on Babi Yar." https://en.wikipedia.org/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#International_organisations_2 The article seems to make no mention of the strike (was it cut?), then just drops this reaction. So the event isn't mentioned.. but the reaction to it, is?

I know this was earlier claimed to have been hit, bit this claim that it was hit seems to have been rather premature & it was actually a nearby communications tower that was targeted and hit: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/sk8byetx9 "Ynet reporter in Ukraine says Holocaust memorial is unscathed despite three missiles being launched toward nearby communications tower, which suffered great damage". "The damage was caused to nearby Kyiv's communications and television tower complex, some 300 meters (400 feet) away from the new memorial and a kilometer (3,000 feet) from the old one."

Unsure how to treat this, it seems most strange to include reactions to things that are not even mentioned in the article. Yet at the same time, the strike should not be added in if it didn't actually happen. Should the reaction be moved to the timeline article instead? (Where one could also then add that it was not hit, despite initial claims it was etc)

78.78.143.46 (talk) 02:48, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Likely collateral damage. If you look at a map of the Babi Yar you'll see that the memorial is directly next to the tower which has been hit by multiple missiles. Phiarc (talk) 16:14, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the distance is mentioned right above you. Source for damage to it? According to Ynetnew, the most recent source and who talked to reporters at the site, there isn't damage. Also, there's still the issue of including a reaction to an event that isn't mentioned anywhere in the article. 78.78.143.46 (talk) 16:45, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Casualties and losses in infobox

The casualty and loss section in the infobox is getting very long, especially via mobile view. Additionally, the massive amount of information makes it a bit convoluted, which I believe goes against WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Clearly much of the information is disputed between countries and organizations, perhaps we summarize the info. KD0710 (talk) 09:41, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

I would agree, I do not think we need a list of every piece of equipment destroyed. Slatersteven (talk) 10:21, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Agree. the infobox is meant to be an "at a glance summary". If it is not, it fails WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:54, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

I suggest that 1.) Get rid of material losses. This is a war and each material items lost will likely be forgotten in relatively little amount of time unless it is something of major significance. 2.) Change the personnel losses to a range such as Russian deaths 498-10,000/Ukrainian deaths 110-2,800. Then change this to UN numbers once they announce them.KD0710 (talk) 14:29, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Numbers come from what's currently listed on the infobox. I would use the current sources and put the low estimate and high estimate. KD0710 (talk) 14:32, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

@KD0710: If UN (a third party) casualty figures are more reliable than figures given by involved actors, then perhaps we should take out the claims of the foreign ministry of Ukraine? Most of material losses are sourced from them. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 20:19, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

I removed the materiel losses from the infobox. (reverted) Phiarc (talk) 15:18, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

?? Can't see this change so I suppose the edit was reverted anyways.. But why would materiel losses be any less relevant than manpower losses? 78.78.143.46 (talk) 19:52, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Use of interfax as a reliable resource

Information from interfax a Russia controlled site is completely unreliable and cross fact checking leads to a lack of credibility support for information posted there. Many interfax post are clearly just Russia government propaganda stated as is with no additional information or statements and how much or how little is actually fact is completely questionable at best. 96.58.103.123 (talk) 11:26, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

I think we are only using it for attributed statements about each side's claims, it seems OK for what. Slatersteven (talk) 11:32, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

It is an private news agency that is often quoted by other respected RS, like Reuters. You did not address what the issue is here, nor is it used for exceptional claims. "It's just propaganda" doesn't say anything. Mellk (talk) 16:05, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Use of interfax as a reliable resource

I think we are only using it for attributed statements about each side's claims, it seems OK for what. Slatersteven (talk) 11:32, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Request to add articles about donations to the Ukrainian Army alongside state aid

I request that alongside the mention at the top that "Various states provided foreign aid to Ukraine both prior to and during the invasion, including arms and other materiel support." a quick sentence should be added that this war has triggered one of the first ever people-funded donations directly to a military, via crypto and bank transfers to the Ukrainian Armed Forces. This is a very important distinction to make, both since it is very unique in world history and because it is directly contributing to the war.

Donations are now running at a rate of $3 billion USD a year ($55m a week) which is one third of Ukraine's entire defence budget. This is a highly highly important distinction to make with lots of high-profile trusted sources reporting on this. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanponciano/2022/03/02/crypto-donations-to-ukraine-top-52-million-as-funds-pour-in-from-bitcoin-ether-polkadot-and-nfts/?sh=6aab46e74e59 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/03/ukraine-to-issue-non-fungible-tokens-to-fund-armed-forces https://techcrunch.com/2022/03/02/ukraine-deputy-minister-talks-it-army-and-deploying-25m-in-donated-crypto/ https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/24/bitcoin-donations-to-ukrainian-military-soar-as-russia-declares-war.html

@anon: This is an interesting point. Thank you for sharing. When I have more time I might dig deeper here. In the future, please sign your posts (~~~~) and consider following the method outlined at Misplaced Pages:Edit requests § Making requests. Another editor might still take care of this after reviewing for WP:V but the steps there can help requests get implemented faster. --N8 19:35, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 March 2022

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Please add it into the subsection "United Nations" of the secction "Reactions" of the article:

The same Resolution confirmed the involvement of Belarus in unlawful use of force against Ukraine. K8M8S8 (talk) 12:47, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

See paragraph 10 of the Resolution. K8M8S8 (talk) 21:19, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

References

"UN resolution against Ukraine invasion: Full text". Al Jazeera. 3 March 2022.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 March 2022 (2)

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected redirect at 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

I’d like to edit the number of foreign students killed in the fighting. There was 4 Chinese students and 1 Indian student killed by Russian attack on Kharkiv college dorm, as reported by Taiwan News: https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4461836 Maximations (talk) 13:57, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 March 2022 (4)

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I think the last sentence of the subsection "Censorship and propaganda" should be amended to read:

" On 4 March, the Russian State Duma, controlled by Putin's United Russia party, passed a law, under which "fake information" about Russian Armed Forces and "discrediting" a use of the Russian Armed Forces including calls for obstruction of the use of the Russian Armed Forces punishable by up to 15 years in prison. On the same day, Russian Federation Council approved this law and Putin signed it. "

There's information about the content of new law (in Russian). Sources already used in the article contain the information about "discrediting a use of the Russian Armed Forces including calls for obstruction of the use of the Russian Armed Forces" too. I believe this is very important nuance because it criminalizes any anti-war protest and speech in Russia; so it should be included in the text of the article. K8M8S8 (talk) 16:29, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Note: The information proposed here is already outdated: Putin has signed the amendments to the Criminal Code into law. Otherwise the fragment is partially implemented in the text. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 20:35, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

This law must go down in history as Pacifism Prohibition Act. K8M8S8 (talk) 20:59, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

I've found an English source: " this law also makes it illegal "to make calls against the use of Russian troops to protect the interests of Russia" or "for discrediting such use" with a penalty possible of up to three years in prison. The same provision applies to calls for sanctions against Russia ".

Another English source: " Mr. Putin signed a law that effectively criminalizes any public opposition to or independent news reporting about the war against Ukraine. Taking effect as soon as Saturday, the law could make it a crime to simply call the war a “war” — the Kremlin says it is a “special military operation” — on social media or in a news article or broadcast ".

The text of the Russian Federal Law of 4 March 2022 №32-FZ and the Russian Federal Law of 4 March 2022 №31-FZ K8M8S8 (talk) 22:52, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

References

"«Фейки» о действиях российских военных и «дискредитация» армии теперь уголовно наказуемы. А «фейки» и «дискредитация» — это что?". Meduza. 4 March 2022.
"Russian Lawmakers OK Bill On 'False News' About Military Operations, In Further Curb On Media". Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty. 4 March 2022.
Troianovski, Anton (4 March 2022). "Russia Takes Censorship to New Extremes, Stifling War Coverage". The New York Times.

Peace talks, humanitarian corridors, nuclear plant seized

There's a few major events that should probably be added. For starters - there has been peace talks and while no major agreements, they did announce humanitarian corridors for civilians to evacutate. The nuclear plant that is reported as under siege in the article, has been captured by Russians.

Humanitarian corridors announced after peace talks: https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/60615310 "Russian and Ukrainian negotiators have agreed for the need to create humanitarian corridors for civilians. It's after a second round of peace talks between the two countries took place. Several Ukrainian cities are currently surrounded or almost surrounded by Russian forces, following the invasion of the country by Russia last week. It's hoped the humanitarian corridors will allow for the evacuation of civilians and the arrival of aid such as food and medicine, although at the moment no humanitarian corridor has actually been announced."

Russia seised the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant, there were initial fires, but these are now put out: https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/russia-attacks-ukraine-nuclear-plant-invasion-advances-83245801

78.78.143.46 (talk) 16:35, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

As your own source points out "although at the moment no humanitarian corridor has actually been announced.", so we need to wait until they are. I agree that we should have some stuff about peace talks. As to the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant, yes we should say it has not been captured. Slatersteven (talk) 16:40, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

I have now added the stuff about the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant. Slatersteven (talk) 16:55, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Great. Check the typo though: "but whilst fires were repotted there was no radiation leak."

And you're correct, "announce" was a really bad choice of words on my part. To correct myself: They've annonounced they should be created. (I should really say "they've agreed they should be created" rather than use the word announce again) They're indeed not announced as in actually created. I do think we should mention them being agreed upon though. Then when they materialize (or if they fail to do so!), that can be added to it.

78.78.143.46 (talk) 17:11, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Enerhodar fell according to map but not articles

Someone I think updated the map wrong. Siege of Enerhodar still shows the battle is ongoing, but the map shows it under Russian control. Can someone please fix which one is incorrect? Elijahandskip (talk) 17:15, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

It seems to have been changed to being over and that Russia won and took the city. Anyways, much like the wiki says (and the source in the subsection, the one from ABC news, above mentions), Enerhodar is the site where the nuclear plant Zaporizhzhia is located, which has been taken. So the map was correct.

78.78.143.46 (talk) 17:58, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

The plants are not the city. Very different. If someone cannot find sources for the city being captured & update the siege article, I would kindly ask if someone could fix the map. People are spreading information using the map on social media saying the city was captured, but it appears the city has not be captured. Only the plants (located outside the city) were captured. Elijahandskip (talk) 18:15, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Never said it was the same thing either? I said it was the site of the plant. The plant is in the city, by the river. (Dniepr) I suggest you look at "Zaporizhzhya NPP" on google maps. You can also look here for instance. https://anonw.com/2022/03/04/where-is-zaporizhzhya-nuclear-power-plant/ 78.78.143.46 (talk) 18:38, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

This is why this live-update idea just does not work with an encyclopedia, the situation will change hourly. Slatersteven (talk) 18:18, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

No, actually it is quiet easy to do it. Update the map when the articles are updated. Not that hard. Elijahandskip (talk) 18:27, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

The map is not hosted on en.wiki. It's being edited by commons editors, some of whom do not edit en.wiki and some of whom do not speak English at all. Mr rnddude (talk) 22:51, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Scuttling of Hetman Sahaidachny

I have updated the brief comment on the scuttling of the Ukraine flagship Hetman Sahaidachny in the Air and Naval subsection. Have removed "It was reported" as there now appears to be enough references, including from the Ukrainian Defence Minister. The photo of the scuttling is already on the Ukrainian frigate Hetman Sahaidachny page, worthwhile to include on this page? Ilenart626 (talk) 23:13, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Aeroflot Removed From Sabre System

Hello,

https://www.sabre.com/insights/releases/sabre-terminates-distribution-agreement-with-aeroflot/

Please edit the article to mention that Sabre (the international code-sharing company), has removed the Russian state airline 'Aeroflot' from it's system as of 3-March-2022. Above is the link to the Sabre website. -- Post by someone

We need a secondary source explaining why this particular corporate action, out of zillions, is worth calling out. E Eng 03:09, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Media Censorship

Article needs an update on this. News reports are being made at present showing that Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube have just been blocked by the Russian government. It's made me question something significant in relation to this - would the next thing Russia do be to block Misplaced Pages's Russian version next for refusing to shut down this article in Russian? 2A02:C7F:50C1:8300:D104:3771:2635:4B89 (talk) 21:31, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Why, you must be a mind-reader! https://www.euractiv.com/section/digital/news/russia-threatens-to-block-access-to-wikipedia/ E Eng 03:10, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Material losses in infobox/article

Material losses have been included in the infobox. It has been suggested to put them into the body of the article instead because of autoexpand issues. What are everyone's thoughts with including this material in the infobox vs putting it into the body of the article. If it would go into the body of the article is this a table that is included or is this a paragraph summary of the each side's claims of material losses? For my part it does seem easier to include in the infobox though I understand it can make the infobox rather ungainly. Words in the Wind(talk) 15:53, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

I am unsure we need such a list anywhere, but if we must have it let's not clutter up the infobox. Slatersteven (talk) 15:55, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Prior discussion at #Casualties_and_losses_in_infobox. I don't know where the materiel losses should go - they are relevant but at the same time the current numbers are obviously not verifiable, which lowers the value of having them. The casualties section as-is appears under "Humanitarian impact", so materiel losses should not be in it. Phiarc (talk) 16:01, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

I think the biggest issue is that given the PR/rhetoric/propaganda and limited information that provides competing numbers for losses in an active conflict. Past conventional wars such as the Winter War and the Pacific War both provide losses of materials, such as vehicles, ships, tanks, etc. In those cases these numbers were not actively changing from day-to-day from various sources. I do think it is important to include these numbers as I believe they provide encyclopedic value. The hard part is how to include these numbers in an active war. A section may need to be included and the headline of humanitarian impact could be changed to impact, with the numbers included in a paragraph or table there. At that point whenever this war ends, the numbers could be put into the infobox. If we do not have a section in the page, then the numbers should remain in the infobox for now. This is my argument at least. Words in the Wind(talk) 23:55, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Timeline a little hard to find…

It’s obviously a good thing that the article has been shortened a bit, as short as some of the replacing summaries may be, but since the timeline got moved to its own page wouldn’t it make sense to link it somewhere in the article? It’s a little odd that I only found out it exists by coming to the talk page and for those of us who have been following the war progress it would be nice to have an easy link to the timeline. 2601:802:8180:3790:89F1:EEE9:A3BC:24DD (talk) 23:05, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

It's linked at the very top of invasion (see the further information links). Perhaps this isn't prominent enough. Mr rnddude (talk) 23:14, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Ah, you’re right. Thanks! Might do well to put it at the very top, may not be something necessary. I’ll let someone else make that decision. 2601:802:8180:3790:89F1:EEE9:A3BC:24DD (talk) 23:35, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

The relative obscurity of the timeline article was the reason why I amended the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) heading on this talk page to mention its existence. JaventheAldericky (talk) 01:44, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

The section "Invasions" holds the timeline of main events. It is currently organized with cardinal subsections, this might be a byproduct of an early version of the article where there was no time-wise division of events because only a day had transpired. I don't think a geographical structure is sustainable across time, and even if it is, it's atypical for events not to be achronological.

The best path forward here would be to return to a chronological ordering of the invasion events, perhaps provide a less detailed summary of the events listed in the timeline article, and if needed the 4 cardinal divisions can remain as sub subsections (subsections being each day or time period) when necessary.

I say sub sub section, but I think it prudent to not use actual sub section or sub sub section headers, rather just consider it as an implicit internal structure to the paragraphs. Such that each paragraph corresponds to a day, and eventful days, like the first two, can be further subdivided into geographic zones, however it's better still to further subdivided them into narrower timeframes like 'night' 'morning' 'noon', but that might take more work, so keeping that structure is acceptable. --TZubiri (talk) 02:36, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Victory article by Ria Novosty

I propose to mention an article published on February 26, 2022 by RIA Novosti (read about its realibility) that hailed Russian "victory" over Ukraine and the "beginning of new era". The article is now deleted. It was widely covered by western media. It worth adding it. Links

Article (in Russian): https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html
EN Sources:
RU Sources:

AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 19:08, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

IN what way? Slatersteven (talk) 19:15, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

As I remember, we discussed this. K8M8S8 (talk) 19:16, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Previously on Misplaced Pages: Talk:2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine/Archive_4#Russian_plans_according_to_RIA and Talk:2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine/Archive_5#Russia_state_media_prematurely_declared_victory,_hailed_'new_world'_in_now-deleted_report Phiarc (talk) 19:27, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

@Phiarc: Thanks. It seems there are no objections. I wonder why it wasn't added earlier. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 21:08, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

If you think this premature claim of victory should be included somewhere.. wouldn't the timeline be a better place for it anyways? 78.78.143.46 (talk) 19:49, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Do you mean the Timeline of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine? If so, I'm totally ok with that. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 21:10, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

"Do you mean the Timeline of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine?" Yep. Of course, I cannot give "permission" nor "deny" you from editing this one or that one. It's just my own suggestion for where it would fit best. :-) 78.78.143.46 (talk) 21:30, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

I think its probably notable enough for a brief mention of its existence (nothing too lengthy). The Economist article is a good source, and shows that early longer-form analysis (rather than breaking news coverage) treats it as significant, illustrating the pan-Russian/imperialistic intentions of the regime, as well as its miscalculation about the speed of the invasion. Admittedly a degree of editorial judgement/guesswork is needed about its importance until more comprehensive secondary overviews are written. I attended an academic panel discussion yesterday where it was mentioned several times and referred to as illuminating. Perhaps a scour for other sources will turn up more? Jr8825 • Talk 21:25, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
Perhaps a scour for other sources will turn up more? Let's hope so. For now though, I'm only proposing to briefly mention it. I can't do it by myself because I'm busy with consequences of the war. Just wanted to make sure that this irredentist piece is remembered. Thanks. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 08:33, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

It was in multiple Russian state sources, including also Sputnik. This article, or perhaps Russo-Ukrainian War needs a section on the causes, rationales, and promotion of the war (as in Putin’s broad intentions, “on historical unity,” etcetera, and not just a list of events leading up to it), and secondary sources’ discussion of this article would belong in this section. In the meantime, it should at least be mentioned. —Michael Z. 21:40, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

English translation:

Petr Akopov, “The new world order,” The Frontier Post.

—Michael Z. 23:31, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Mercenaries

Add “Supported by” Wagner Group, Kardyovites in belligerents? 216.193.170.144 (talk) 06:03, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Presumably both of those would be covered by "Russia" Phiarc (talk) 09:59, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 March 2022

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The Russian casualties according to Ukraine should say "disputed" in brackets beside it in the column list as this number is a bit far fetched. Magichands92 (talk) 05:32, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

We're just reporting what the Ukranian government says. While I understand what you're saying, we're saying explicitly that this is self-reported. It's a given that all of the figures are disputed, in some form or another. If you can find a handful of reliable sources explicitly saying that the Ukranian figures are thought to be "far fetched" or otherwise unreliable, then that's another story. But we don't make edits based on original research. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 05:39, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Only if you got sources for that. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 08:15, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Certainly not. They are both just claims made by respective governments. Neither should be trusted and we don't need to put "disputed" on any of them, and certainly shouldn't on only one of them, that'd be far from NPOV. 78.78.143.46 (talk) 14:15, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 March 2022 (2)

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Please update the infobox with Ukraine's claimed inflicted losses: https://twitter.com/KyivPost/status/1500046086865661952 Other source: https://twitter.com/MFA_Ukraine/status/1500040899304333313 P4p5 (talk) 10:04, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

If there's a possibility to authorize me to edit the page, I'll gladly make those updates myself. P4p5 (talk) 17:49, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

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Under section 8.3.1 Religious leaders, a citation is needed for Patriarch Kirill of Moscow's reaction. I am not familiar with this topic but perhaps this source is reliable: religionnews.com/2022/02/24/orthodox-patriarch-of-moscow-kirill-calls-on-all-parties-to-avoid-civilian-casualties-in-ukraine/ Clay Bahl (talk) 22:35, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't realize the citation for the next bullet point covered both claims. Clay Bahl (talk) 22:40, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 March 2022 (3)

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Under Sanctions

Please change:

Further information: International sanctions during the Russo-Ukrainian War and List of people sanctioned during the Russo-Ukrainian War

To:

Further information: International sanctions during the Russo-Ukrainian War, List of people sanctioned during the Russo-Ukrainian War, and List of companies that applied sanctions during the Russo-Ukrainian War

It is important to explain the role of non-state economic actors and the suspension of their services in Russia during this conflict.

GeorgeHenryBorrow (talk) 15:31, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Done ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 17:11, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

A notice regarding one file used in this article

Hi there, I just want to let you know here that I added the English subtitles to the Putin's speech on February, 21 used in this article (File:Обращение_Президента_Российской_Федерации_2022-02-21.webm). I don't know if it's relevant for English Misplaced Pages, but I would like to suggest adding a notice in the article to the video's text like:

<small>(English subtitles available)</small>.

Thanks for your attention! — Pacha Tchernof (talk) 11:14, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Done: I honestly have no idea what the guidance for this is but I went ahead and added this suggestion because without it, I probably wouldn't have looked for the button to turn these captions on. This is incredibly helpful on English WP when including foreign-language media. Thank you! --N8 16:02, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 March 2022

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Please change:

In early 2021, Russia began assembling military forces along the Russia–Ukraine border.

to:

In early 2021, Russia began assembling military forces along the Russia–Ukraine border, triggering the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis.

In the current intro section, the Russo-Ukrainian crisis is linked but never mentioned by name (see MOS:SUBMARINE). This leaves it unclear to readers what "During the crisis, " refers to later in the paragraph. By my reckoning, it could be any of the 2014 revolution, the annexation of Crimea, the occupation of the Donbas, the "ongoing eight-year war", or the military buildup. --Xarm Endris (talk) 02:19, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Done. Pabsoluterince (talk) 10:05, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 March 2022 (2)

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Please update the infobox with Ukraine's claimed inflicted losses: https://twitter.com/MFA_Ukraine/status/1500406475616927749

If there's a possibility to authorize me to edit the page, I'll gladly make those updates myself. P4p5 (talk) 13:20, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

It will be updated you are not the only person with access to that Twitter feed. I really have to ask again, can we please not have tones of edit requests to update losses as it is being done without being asked. Maybe this needs adding to the FAQ "losses claimed by both sides will be added". Slatersteven (talk) 13:28, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

The map illustrating the situation in Ukraine is wrong

Not all red zones are territories occupied by Russian forces. The only zones really occupied are the Crimea annexed by Russians and the Donetsk zone controlled by separatists.

These red zones are not even "zones of control" understood as areas where Russian military denies Ukrainian military presence. We know that the Ukrainian military successfully operates on these areas and is able to attack Russian's backs.

Most of these red zones are simply territories with Russian troops presence.

Therefore painting these zones red and describing them as occupied is greatly misleading.

Also, there are no clearly defined „front lines” in this war. It's not a trench war.

Here's a Twitter thread explaining this in more detail: https://twitter.com/Calthalas/status/1498998318755680260

77.255.79.188 (talk) 15:06, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

You will need to provide more reliable sources than just a Twitter thread. Thanks, EDG 543 15:15, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

This source looks reasonably reliable. I have seen other sources make similar statements, but sorry, I don’t have one at hand. Is there a source saying we should treat this the opposite way? —Michael Z. 15:38, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

The Twitter thread not only question the accuracy of this map but maps as a whole. Arguing that the colored territory does not imply total control, but area denial. The Twitter thread also questions the accuracy of BBC, NYT and Die Welt maps (that are almost exact with the one used on Misplaced Pages). WP:FRINGE Viewsridge (talk) 15:54, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

The maps from BBC or NYT are misleading too. And it's not a fringe view, military maps are looking very different for a reason. Recently retired US Army general suggested live in BBC that these big swatches of red are misleading and that they “ain't controlling jack.” 77.255.79.188 (talk) 16:46, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

I don’t think it questions the accuracy; it discusses better ways to represent the information in them, with implications on how to interpret them. Granted, it does recommend that some ways to represent it are better than others. —Michael Z. 17:36, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

As per the Geneva convention and UN Charter, the zone described as "Ukrainian territories occupied by Russia and pro-Russian separatists" is incorrect. I highly recommend that we all read the article on | Military Occupation. My understanding is that the Donbass (area prior to Feb 24) is occupied by pro-Russian separatists. Most of the rest is an area of denial or - and I find this term more intuitive - a zone of control.

Additionally, we should probably have a third type of zone to indicate where the conflict is active, the zone of control is fluid or uncertain. P4p5 (talk) 19:37, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

This is an interesting map

Showing more clearly the lines of troops / military vehicles. Could we do something similar? Maybe with the red being darker. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:27, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Strongly support something along the lines of the Doc James link above. In particular, the current map shows Russian "control" of regions adjacent to the roads along which Russian forces have advanced. But I haven't seen any sourcing to support that. Adoring nanny (talk) 14:20, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

One solution would be to replace the current map with a screen capture picture of Template:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map which does not have "shaded areas". Tradedia 05:13, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

I strongly agree the map does not represent the situation on the ground, thin columns of vehicles along the axis of a road do not represent the zones of control of the Russian army, these are contested areas, I put it that the map that Nathan Ruser had linked ] is a much better representation of the situation. An analogy can be made to Napoleon invasion of Russia, Napoleon only controlled the areas just around his troops not the entire Oblasts his troops were passing through. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Larsobrien (talk • contribs) 09:13, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Crimea is internationally recognized as a part of Ukraine. The land was occupied by Russia in 2014 and not in 2022. It should be mentioned on the map. Ukraine lost control of the parts of Donetsk and Luhansk in 2014 as well and not in 2022. The map is about the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. M.K.Dan (talk) 21:58, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

US intelligence support to Ukraine

According to this CNN article, from a few minutes ago, "US is sharing intelligence with Ukraine about Russian force movements and locations, as well as intercepted communications about their military plans." Should US be added under support or Intelligence support under Ukraine in the infobox? Viewsridge (talk) 12:28, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

More than that, the U.S. and the U.K. have been offering direct military recon in Ukrainian territory. Fephisto (talk) 12:41, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

The link is pre-invasion (23 Feb). Viewsridge (talk) 12:48, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

@Viewsridge: I'm getting confused by the dates, sorry. Fephisto (talk) 14:38, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Recent additions - Encyclopedic tone

Alcibiades979 - Misplaced Pages is not a PR team. Write your additions to the article in encyclopedic tone. I'd edit it for you but I do not have a subscription to the Economist. Emmanuel Macron of France has walked a fine line, on the one hand he has striven to help create a unified EU response to Russia's invasion to help ease the concerns of EU members in the east but on the other hand he has also worked diligently to keep communication lines with Vladimir Putin open and to allow him off ramps to end the war without further escalation. 'Walked a fine line', 'striven to help', 'worked diligently' - this is not encyclopedic language. Mr rnddude (talk) 01:09, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. These are qualitative opinionative statements that don't really qualify to be written in WikiVoice. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 01:53, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

@Alcibiades979:It would also be nice if that line had a more up-to-date source. Fephisto (talk) 03:13, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

If your issue is the prose like you say then you don't need an economist subscription to change that nor do you need to create a section on the talk page: 'walked a fine line' -> 'worked both to'. Before this section was a word salad of random quotes with zero context. This is a tertiary source. It's not opinion that France has both worked diplomatically with Russia whilst working to coordinate EU sanctions, that's precisely what they have done and what they are continuing to do if you have sources that say otherwise please provide them. Alcibiades979 (talk) 09:22, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

There wouldn't be much left if I simply cut it down to plain facts: Emmanuel Macron helped create a unified EU response to Russia's invasion while maintaining an open line of communication with Vladimir Putin in an effort to bring an end to the war. I'd also have cut out: ... to help ease the concerns of EU members in the east ... because alone this statement conveys little information. What concerns? Whose concerns? How have his actions helped ease these concerns? I'd assume this is expounded upon further by your source, but again, I don't have access to it. But my main problem remains with the use of idiomatic expressions and opinion statements in Wikivoice. Nevermind all that now, as somebody has already done it and with better results. Mr rnddude (talk) 13:32, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Mr rnddudeI've been the one editing it. I'm trying to formulate how to best put this... In the future instead of coming on to the talk page and trying to order me around on what you do and don't like why don't you show a little initiative? Which is to say, I'm done with this thread. You have privileges to edit the article, so if you see something that you don't like then do it and don't waste my time. Alcibiades979 (talk) 13:48, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

WP:TONE - this is a part of MOS. I didn't raise a concern of personal taste, I raised a concern based on WP:P&Gs. Beyond that, I have nothing to reply to either. Carry on, Mr rnddude (talk) 14:16, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Friendly Fire

I may have missed it in the article... but are there yet any known/reported cases of friendly fire... by either side in this conflict? 81.108.244.153 (talk) 01:26, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Not that I have seen. Pabsoluterince (talk) 04:22, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Ukraine reports friendly fire among Russian forces: https://twitter.com/AVindman/status/1499753688478494721

Translation by @ChrisO_wiki: Just in the Kiev region, near Severinovka, the Russian occupation forces came into battle with ... the Russian occupation forces. As a result, thanks to "friendly fire", 9 tanks and 4 armored personnel carriers were destroyed. Accordingly, it saved us 13 Јavelin. We understand the manifestation of such suicidal tendencies in the occupiers and ask them to continue in this spirit. And mothers of the Russian Federation are recommended to find out where their offspring are now on the lists of captured occupiers or still alive. But this is only at will. It is possible not to find out. All the same - all of them will be in one list, but in different plastic bags. P4p5 (talk) 10:10, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

There are quite a few claimed incidents. Mostly on social media such as twitter, like the one P4p5 linked above. But claims on twitter are not exactly very RS. I suppose some here might have seen that truck video for instance (you can see a man jump out of a truck and is instantly gunned down) It's also referenced here for instance: https://www.the-sun.com/news/4768170/russia-ukraine-news-kyiv-attack-explosion-war-2-2/

That is alleged to be friendly fire by some - the man (men, but only one of them was seen being shot on-camera if I recall it correctly) was shot by ukranians and he was in ukranian uniform and driving a ukranian vehicle. Others allege (like the article references) that it was really russians disguised as ukranians. How do you actually verify either claim when the actual identities of the shot men aren't forthcoming?

A confirmed incident that might be regarded as friendly fire could be the Israeli tourist. https://www.timesofisrael.com/body-of-israeli-man-killed-in-ukraine-returning-to-israel-for-burial/ "The remains of an Israeli man who was killed by Ukrainian troops due to apparent mistaken identity were being flown back to Israel on Friday ahead of his burial, the Foreign Ministry said." 78.78.143.46 (talk) 13:29, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Friendly Fire

I may have missed it in the article... but are there yet any known/reported cases of friendly fire... by either side in this conflict? 81.108.244.153 (talk) 01:26, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Not that I have seen. Pabsoluterince (talk) 04:22, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Ukraine reports friendly fire among Russian forces: https://twitter.com/AVindman/status/1499753688478494721

Additional Battles

Should there be additional battles listed as the Ukrainians have re-taken some smaller towns outside of Kyiv, such as Bucha and Hostomel? (Those are some that come to mind but I believe they've also pushed into some other towns near Kharkov as well. The Bucha firefight involved several dead VDV soldiers and several destroyed vehicles. There's a few videos and official statements from the Ukrainians regarding all this. There's also some reports that the Ukrainians re-took the power plant as well. Just curious. LeukonTheBosporan (talk) 11:27, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

That content would fit much better in the either the articles about the individual battles, the 3 main offenses, or the general timeline article. But the invasion section for this article is trying to give just a general overview of the war's progression.ErieSwiftByrd (talk) 19:02, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

@LeukonTheBosporan: If you feel like a battle is particularly notable, feel free to start a draft of it. If it is notable, someone will move it into mainspace and link it up with the List of military engagements during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Elijahandskip (talk) 19:21, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Bloat

Please think of the reader who comes here looking for an overview of the topic. I am trimming or moving extraneous content. A crisp article that gets to the point, free of digressions should be the goal. Jehochman 12:55, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Thoughts on merging the "Reactions" and "Ramifications" sections? I think we only need one which can then be cut down considerably. Hollth (talk) 15:43, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Airspace restrictions

The map that shows countries should also show their teritorial waters (as seen hereAirspace bans and unfriendly skies around Ukraine ), or in other words all the airspace that is closed to Russia

Justas.pingvinas (talk) 13:41, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Enlargement of NATO

From the intro:

>During the crisis, Russian president Vladimir Putin described the enlargement of NATO after 1997 as a threat to his country's security, a claim that NATO rejected,

The way this is written makes it look like NATO rejects the claim entirely (that they're enlarging, and that it's a threat), not that (if you read the source article) NATO rejects only the part of that claim that their enlargement would be viewed as a threat. It is true that NATO has been working together to include Ukraine and Georgia. Could this be rewritten as:

>During the crisis, Russian president Vladimir Putin described the enlargement of NATO after 1997 as a threat to his country's security, NATO rejects that this is a threat,

Fephisto (talk) 14:37, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

I disagree. Slatersteven (talk) 14:42, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

@ Fephisto. Agreed. It doesn't make this very clear at all. Saying for instance: "During the crisis, Russian president Vladimir Putin described the enlargement of NATO after 1997 as a threat to his country's security. NATO rejected his claims that this would constitute a threat to Russia." (could also give their reasoning as to why) would be better. @ Slater. Much like the discussed sentence brought up by Fephisto, that's not very clear. You disagree with some part of what he said, or all of it? And your argument is..? 78.78.143.46 (talk) 15:38, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

My argument is that it is perfectly clear we are only talking about his perception that NATO enlargement threatens Russia has been rejected by NATO. Slatersteven (talk) 15:41, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Slatersteven. Especially given there is a link to the article on enlargement of NATO, I don't see how it could be confused. Hollth (talk) 15:46, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Alright, but is it though? Fephisto does not seem to think it is that perfectly clear, and I don't either. Linguistically it doesn't seem clear either. There are really two claims being made by Putin. A says X and Z , B rejects A's claim. So, which claim did B reject? X, Z or both? Is that really clear? No, it isn't. 78.78.143.46 (talk) 15:52, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Is there even a problem with changing "a claim that NATO rejected" to "NATO rejects that this is a threat"? Fephisto (talk) 16:55, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

No seriously, I'm surprised that even only adding two words to improve clarity gets shot down here. Fephisto (talk) 23:15, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

The sentence occurs in the middle of a paragraph which has already addressed events from 2014 to 2022 making it clear the phrase, "the enlargement of NATO after 1997" is simply a historical reference. Reading this in the context of the paragraph I find it difficult to interpret as NATO rejecting the claim of its enlargement. --N8 17:27, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Agree with N8; don't agree that a change is needed. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:25, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

NATO enlargement is Putin justification narrative, not sure why this statement is even in the lead.. Decades prior Putin also said that the collapse of the Soviet empire "was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century". Since then Russia has attempted to coerce post-Soviet states into a Russian led version of security and economic unions whether they like or not, and failing that use of force. There is always some excuse why the victim is to blame, currently its Ukraine grasp for NATO safe-line against Russian aggression, before the war it was Ukraine's reach for free trade agreement to balance Russian economic coercion (then Russia threatened with 'inevitable financial catastrophe and possibly the collapse of the state, and allowed for the possibility of separatist movements' which soon after "spontaneously" manifested itself with Russian support). Since then we have had 8 years of politically frozen portracted conflict with recognizing Donetsk and Luhansk its last move. Not sure how you can linguistic dissect all of that, maybe its best to leave the various media narratives perception/interpretation of events to background and focus on Russian military invasion of Ukraine--Nilsol2 (talk) 22:38, 5 March 2022 (UTC).

second opinion

I rewrote the summary for the southern offensives to, among other things, specify what direction the various forces were moving towards. I was reverted with the edit summary, "This was too badly worded to be in improvement." I figured I'd just drop a note here for posterity, in case anyone wonders why it's so hard to parse what is happening in the invasion section. - Featous (talk) 16:58, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

The problem was that it was (as I said) very poorly written, with some of it not flowing due to poor choices syntax, or tense. Slatersteven (talk) 17:01, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Rename topic to “2022 Russia-Ukraine War”

It’s evident it’s moved past the “invasion” phase and into the “war” phase. 2607:9880:4218:142:FD3B:55EB:57E6:787A (talk) 19:50, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

There's been a war for eight years, and we have an article on it: Russo-Ukrainian War. This invasion is actually the third in the course of the war. RGloucester — ☎ 19:54, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Russian forces are still trying to advance into Ukraine and invade its territory and cities. Operation Barbarossa, for example, was an invasion that lasted over five months. —Michael Z. 23:07, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Let's wait for the historians to give it an official name - that will come in the comming months.50.111.36.47 (talk) 00:21, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

There's almost no WP:RS'd information on Ukraine attacking Russian territory (I think there was one incident across the eastern border). While the invasion is a form of war, it's better to have the more specific title ("invasion") rather than a general title ("war"). Boud (talk) 02:37, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

International brigade

Is Ukraine call for foreign volunteer fighters, and Zelensky's claim that 16,000 have answered, worth being somewhere in the main page? So far its just in the info box. Maybe in the "Foreign military support to Ukraine" section? ErieSwiftByrd (talk) 22:15, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 March 2022 (4)

This edit request to 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

"The invasion was the largest military attack in Europe since World War II." Remove 'was' as invasion is still ongoing. Honestly I have no idea why someone would make this change. 2601:196:200:6380:C541:31C:793D:121 (talk) 22:58, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Encyclopedia's often talk in the past tense - and as the warning at the article states, this is documenting an ongoing event. This is a gnat as far as problems with this article are concerned. 50.111.36.47 (talk) 00:18, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

WP:RELTIME. Boud (talk) 02:38, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Address by President Vladimir Putin, Feb 24, announcing the invasion

The site of Kremlin seems to be continually down due to active DDoS, but I managed to save a copy of the address by Kremlin that announced the invasion. Here's the PDF, in case it's of any use for the article: download link Might be retrieved from Web Archive as well if there's any working snapshot. PS: The original link was also mentioned by the Russian MFA on Twitter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AndreiSf (talk • contribs) 00:35, 6 Mar 2022 (UTC)

Leadership of Putin and Zelenskyy

Reintroducing this section, which was archived by a bot for further comment. Incidentally, it was deleted from this talk page but not added to the archives.Mozzie (talk) 10:28, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

This section seems incredibly biased. We only see negative portrayals of Putin and positive portrayals of Zelenskyy. Could we maybe have some level of balance here, as the article is verging into propaganda. Ianbrettcooper (talk) 11:26, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Care to give some examples? Slatersteven (talk) 11:40, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

I'd also like to see some examples, but as a general note: almost the entire world is against Putin's war, and this extends to reliable sources discussing the war. So it's not really surprising that most sources portray Putin's involvement negatively and Zelenskyy's positively, especially given Ukraine's predicted odds. Since Misplaced Pages reflects reliable sources (per WP:DUE etc), it follows that the same portrayal will exist in this article, otherwise we'd be doing WP:FALSEBALANCE. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:00, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

The section looks more like an op-ed piece that have no business being on wikipedia. Moreover, your claim that almost the entire world is against the war is simply untrue as proven by the International Reactions section, close to half are neutral, made no comments or are supportive.Nebakin (talk) 13:10, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

"Close to half are neutral or are supportive" is an interesting way to put it, as there are only a handful of countries supporting Russia here (and Belarus and Syria are Russian puppets). Phiarc (talk) 16:39, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

I have at least tweaked this section slightly https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?diff=1074838524&oldid=1074838374&title=2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diffmode=source given the existing sources. ·addshore· 13:20, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

In the context of this war, what "positive portrayal of Putin" would you like us to give? Maybe we could praise his dress-sense? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:14, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Lets see some RS praising him.Slatersteven (talk) 13:16, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

"Made no comments" doesn't mean appraising Putin. In addition, no comments means there isn't anything we can write... P1221 (talk) 13:19, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, kind of my point. Not having an opinion is not the same as having a positive opinion. Slatersteven (talk) 13:28, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

I've removed the section for now and copied the text below for discussion, as I think it needs a heavy rewrite before it's ready. I agree it reads like an op-ed piece/WP:OR, in particular the WP:TONE isn't impartial/detached, which means it violates WP:NPOV, one of the core content policies. There are also a lot of exceptional claims and subjective statements, which require excellent sources and clear in-text attribution. Misplaced Pages doesn't have the authority to say, in article voice, claims such as "Putin was effectively in sole control of the country's policy and was the sole architect of the war with Ukraine" – who is this according to? Which experts of Russian politics say this? Or "His leadership was characterised by his failures to anticipate the will of the Ukrainian people to oppose the invasion, the worldwide backlash, and the poor performance of his own forces" – again, who knows what Putin was expecting? This is the viewpoint/analysis of several journalists. These kind of analyses need in-text attribution, e.g. "According to the Economist..." Also, we should prefer subject experts/academics over columnists/journalists writing in magazines. I appreciate that a lot of effort has gone into the section, and there are some good ideas to work with, but it needs a careful rewrite before it's ready, especially given how highly trafficked the page is currently. Jr8825 • Talk 16:18, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

WP:FALSEBALANCE is also a concern (and a part of NPOV), So far we have seen no sources praising Putin, so to argue "we have to be neutral" when it's clear RS is not is a false balance argument. Slatersteven (talk) 16:23, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: I don't largely object to the substance of what's written, my issue is with how it's written. All of these claims, which I largely believe are correct, are written as fact in article voice, which is inappropriate. Pretty much every sentence is problematic. In-text attribution is required for assessments of how Putin may have been thinking, or subjective assessments. We don't write "Hitler thought X", or "Churchill believed X", we write "According to historian X, Churchill believed X". For example, "Zelenskyy was highly effective in lobbying his allies for support" – according to who? Writing "Zelenskyy was widely seen as being highly effective in lobbying his allies for support" is different from stating this assessment (a judgement of effectiveness) as fact. We don't make our own assessments, because Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source. "Putin swiftly became a pariah, and was shunned by much of the global community" – this is a subjective opinion, not a fact: what constitutes a "pariah"? What does "shunned" mean? How much of the global community is "much"? We need to be accurate and factual, not sweeping and subjective. Jr8825 • Talk 16:35, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Except, of course, the Ukrainians are getting help from all kinds of places (even countries traditional Nuetral), and Russia has pretty much been treated as a pariah. So do we really need to attribute what is staring us in the face? Sure if it was open to some doubt that Zelenskyy was highly effective in lobbying his allies" (in truth allies should be removed, as many of them are not allies) you might have a point (the same with Putin's Pariah status) but it's not the case. Slatersteven (talk) 16:42, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Zelenskyy's effectiveness is perhaps the least controversial claim, so I accept that may not need attribution. Putin's status as a "global pariah" is not something Misplaced Pages should proclaim in article voice, however. Kim Jong-un doesn't say "he's a pariah". Has China (world's largest population) condemned Putin? Or Iran? Or Venezuela? These are also members of the global community, even if they have unpleasant regimes. The democratic world is not the entire world. That's why such a statement should be attributed to whichever expert is saying it. What do the sources supplied actually say? And yes, we do need to attribute the obvious unless the reliable sources are unanimous about it, in which case we don't need to attribute it. So if all the sources say Zelenskyy was effective, that's fine. But the reason we need to avoid stating as fact the things we find obvious is that we don't all agree on what's obvious - tertiary sources collate other sources without adding any additional analysis, which is why readers can trust them. Jr8825 • Talk 16:53, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

True, but if we list the countries that are outright sending arms compared to those not condemning which is larger? But we do in fact say (in the first line "According to the portrayal in Western media") and we go on "was shunned by much of the global community", and this https://www.statista.com/chart/26946/stance-on-ukraine-invasion/ implies it is most of it (look at all that blue). If anything we downplay the degree to which he has been condemned. Hell he is being stripped of honorary titles and wards, by people like the IOC (hardly known for not being neutral) Slatersteven (talk) 17:00, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm not saying we need to compromise on what's being said or water it down – the general content is fine, it's just large parts of it are clearly analysis, and Misplaced Pages doesn't (and shouldn't) do analysis in its own voice. So we can either attribute the analysis, or demonstrate the validity of the analysis by providing relevant facts. Unfortunately, the use of these sources in the paragraph below is poor. Look for example at the Guardian article for the statement "Putin swiftly became a pariah, and was shunned by much of the global community". It takes the attention-grabbing headline and repeats it as fact, directly contravening WP:HEADLINES. The actual article itself says "Putin was facing ... the prospect of pariah status" – not the same as saying he already has it. Our sentence should reflect what the article actually says, and could go something like: Putin faced international isolation after the invasion; in the global condemnation and outrage which followed, even long-term allies such as China and Hungarian president Viktor Orbán refused to support his actions. Jr8825 • Talk 17:16, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

No, this is all wrong for a number of reasons. For example, "Putin was effectively in sole control of the country's policy and was the sole architect of the war with Ukraine." No, he was not "the sole architect of the war". General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation was, not mentioning a lot of other people who are now sanctioned. My very best wishes (talk) 17:44, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

As the primary contributer of this section, I welcome the use of the BOLD, revert, discuss cycle and than Jr8825 for using it. In writing this, I found it very difficult to adopt a neutral tone. The best available contemporaneous reliable sources say are highly praising of Zelenskyy and generally damning of Putin. How do we come up with NPOV tone here? Is it even possible? To quote WP:NPOV "Articles must not take sides, but should explain the sides, fairly and without editorial bias. This applies to both what you say and how you say it." and then goes on to say with respect to bias in sources: "A neutral point of view should be achieved by balancing the bias in sources based on the weight of the opinion in reliable sources and not by excluding sources that do not conform to the editor's point of view. This does not mean any biased source must be used; it may well serve an article better to exclude the material altogether." Is this article better served by leaving leadership out altogether? It is clearly a significant issue in the conflict.Mozzie (talk) 01:06, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

If RS say it’s bad leadership, then it is neutral to say it is bad. —Michael Z. 05:45, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

RS is not the same thing as neutral. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Biased_or_opinionated_sources "Misplaced Pages articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject." 78.78.143.46 (talk) 14:11, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

In my view the question is not if this content is all supported by reliable sources, the question is does it fit in this article? This article is already bloated enough. I think it is better suited to other articles that discuss the media presentation of the conflict. I'd suggest Media portrayal of the Ukrainian crisis Hollth (talk) 14:48, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

While most of the individual points above can be supported by RS, this Z versus Pu comparison in the same section is an example of WP:SYN. Well, maybe one can find a couple of opinion pieces about this somewhere. My very best wishes (talk) 16:11, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Consensus building

Is there consensus that the leadership of Putin and Zelenskyy has been a prominent factor in the conflict?

I'm not sure if an original source says this specifically, but I think this is pretty self evident.Mozzie (talk) 10:56, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

No RS say this exactly, but yes it more or less encompasses the whole of the coverage. Slatersteven (talk) 14:17, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Is there consensus that Putin is effectively in sole control of Russia and that this war was his choice and his choice alone?

Perhaps this should be that analysts and commentators widely speculated that the invasion was the sole decision of Putin?Mozzie (talk) 10:56, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Less sure, but yes he has been the focus of the coverage. Slatersteven (talk) 14:17, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Is there consensus that Putin failed to anticipate Ukranian opposition, worldwide reaction and the poor performance of Russian forces (is any of those three things wrong?)?

This is all speculation by various experts, observers and commentators. Perhaps it needs that caveat.Mozzie (talk) 10:56, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

As above this is widesrapd speculation, so maybe caveat it. Slatersteven (talk) 14:17, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Is there consensus that Putin become a global pariah?

In RS yes there is, but maybe it needs to be less about him, and more about Russia itslef.Mozzie (talk) 10:47, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Is there consensus that Zelenskyy's become a national hero and a global figurehead?

Yes,l amounfg RS that is clear. Slatersteven (talk) 14:17, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Leadership of Putin and Zelenskyy

The leadership of the presidents of Russia and Ukraine was a prominent factor in the conflict. According to the portrayal in Western media, as the autocratic ruler of Russia, Putin was effectively in sole control of the country's policy and was the sole architect of the war with Ukraine. His leadership was characterised by his failures to anticipate the will of the Ukrainian people to oppose the invasion, the worldwide backlash, and the poor performance of his own forces. Putin swiftly became a pariah, and was shunned by much of the global community. This contrasted with the leadership of Zelenskyy, who quickly became a national hero, uniting the Ukrainian people and rising from obscurity to become an international icon.

In the beginning of the conflict, Zelenskyy refused to leave the capital, pledging to stay and fight. When the US offered to evacuate him, Zelenskyy replied that he needed ammunition and not a ride. He used social media effectively, posting selfies of himself walking the streets of Kyiv as the city was under attack to prove that he was still alive. Zelenskyy was highly effective in lobbying his allies for support. He appeared before numerous gatherings of international leaders, telling a conference of European leaders that this might be the last time they would see him, and appearing before the European Parliament where he earned a standing ovation.

References

"Vladimir Putin has shifted from autocracy to dictatorship". The Economist. 13 November 2021. Retrieved 2 March 2022.
Nast, Condé (26 February 2022). "Putin's Bloody Folly in Ukraine". The New Yorker. Retrieved 2 March 2022.
Bump, Philip (28 February 2022). "The bizarre, literal isolation of Vladimir Putin". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2 March 2022.
Harris, Shane (2 March 2022). "In Putin, intelligence analysts see an isolated leader who underestimated the West but could lash out if cornered". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2 March 2022.
Beaumont, Peter; Graham-Harrison, Emma; Oltermann, Philip; Roth, Andrew (26 February 2022). "Putin shunned by world as his hopes of quick victory evaporate". The Guardian. Retrieved 2 March 2022.
Pieper, Oliver (26 February 2022). "Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelenskyy: From comedian to national hero". Deutsche Welle. Retrieved 2 March 2022.
"Zelenskyy's unlikely journey, from comedy to wartime leader". AP News. 26 February 2022. Retrieved 2 March 2022.
"To many he's the face of Ukrainian bravery — but Volodymyr Zelenskyy is an unlikely wartime leader". ABC News. 27 February 2022. Retrieved 2 March 2022.
Pierson, Carli (26 February 2022). "'I need ammunition, not a ride': Zelenskyy is the hero his country needs as Russia invades". USA Today. Retrieved 2 March 2022.
"Ukraine's Zelenskyy says he is Russia's 'number one target'". Al Jazeera. 25 February 2022. Retrieved 2 March 2022.
"Zelensky rejects US evacuation offer: I need ammunition, 'not a ride'". Times of Israel. 26 February 2022. Retrieved 2 March 2022.
Jack, Victor; Stolton, Samuel (1 March 2022). "Ukraine wages 'information insurgency' to keep Russia off balance". Politico. Retrieved 2 March 2022.
"Ukrainian President Zelenskyy posts a selfie video from Kyiv, says 'we will defend our country'". The Economic Times. 26 February 2022. Retrieved 2 March 2022.
Ravid, Barak (25 February 2022). "Zelensky to EU leaders: 'This might be the last time you see me alive'". Axios. Retrieved 2 March 2022.
"'Nobody is going to break us': Zelenskyy's emotional plea to EU brings interpreters to tears". ABC News. 1 March 2022. Retrieved 2 March 2022.

"Second War of Ukrainian Independence" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Second War of Ukrainian Independence and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 6#Second War of Ukrainian Independence until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Liz 04:10, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

RfC: Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

On the numbers, there are 30 bolded "support" !votes and 31 oppose !votes. On the strength of arguments, there is no global consensus to be applied that would give one side or the other sufficient weight to overcome the numerical split of opinion. Although this RFC has only been open for a little over a week, continued discussion in this RFC is unlikely to lead to consensus, and as an uninvolved editor, I am closing it, although a subsequent RFC, which can be launched at any time, may yield consensus, if it takes into account the discussion in this RFC, which I will summarize below. Thus, this is a "no-consensus-without-prejudice-to-speedy-new-discussion" result.

There is clear consensus against adding countries that are supplying arms to the |belligerent= section of the infobox without at least some form of separation from the countries that are combatants and are listed as "belligerents". Several editors directly opposed this, and combined with the recent NATO RFC, the consensus against listing supporting countries along with active combatants together in one unseparated list is clear.

The consensus about listing countries in a separate list, e.g. "Supported by", which might be a collapsed list under the "belligerents" section, is less clear. This RFC, which asked the open-ended question, "Should the individual countries that are supplying arms be added to the infobox?", has probably done as much work as it can in terms of generating consensus for such a list. On the plus side, it asked a general question (not indicating exactly which countries should be listed, or where in the infobox and under what heading), which allowed for a general discussion in pursuit of consensus. On the minus side, because the question was very general, it is not exactly clear what editors were supporting or opposing, with many participants supporting some specific implementations and opposing other specific implementations, or supporting/opposing conditionally. As such, a new RFC, with a more narrowly-drawn question, may yield consensus about a "supported by" list, especially if it takes into account the discussion in this RFC about a "supported by" section. I see the relevant parts of that discussion as follows:

1. Editors pointed to a number of other articles about wars that included, or did not include, a "support by" section in the infobox. There is ample precedent for both approaches and no universally-consistent practice. Nobody pointed to any documented global consensus either requiring or prohibiting inclusion of a "supported by" section in the infobox. With the lack of a binding global consensus, editors are free to come to local consensus at this article about whether to include, or not include, a "supported by" section in the infobox.

2. A number of editors !voted to "support if" or "oppose unless" there was a consensus of reliable sources that verified listing a country in the infobox under a particular heading. This is already a requirement of global consensus, documented at MOS:INFOBOX (e.g., the section MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE), which documents the global consensus that infoboxes should summarize the body of articles. This means that no country can be listed as a "belligerent" or a "supporter" unless the body of the article says the country is a belligerent or supporter (and of course, per the Verification policy, the text in the body must be reliably sourced). In this case, the article does identify countries that are belligerents in this war, as well as countries that are providing support (see, e.g., the "Foreign military support to Ukraine" section of the article). Thus, global consensus such as WP:V, WP:RS, and MOS:INFOBOX, is or can be met, at least for some countries to be listed in the infobox as belligerents and for some countries to be listed as supporters, if the local consensus of editors here is to do so.

3. A number of editors who opposed did so on the basis that listing all the supporting countries in the infobox would make the infobox so long as to be unusable or disruptive, especially for mobile readers, for whom collapsed lists are automatically uncollapsed, and who have smaller screens, resulting in a lot of scrolling to get past a long infobox to the article content. I am going to note here that this is an example of an unnecessary technical limitation constraining editors' content decisions – there is no reason infoboxes can't collapse for mobile readers, and that's something we could change as a community if we wanted to. Putting aside my soapboxing on unnecessary technical limitations affecting content, this objection nevertheless leaves open the possibility that editors who oppose this RFC may support adding a "supported by" list if that list were not too long.

TLDR: While this RFC is not resulting in consensus, editors who wish to add supporting countries to the infobox may want to launch a new discussion (or even a full RFC) proposing the addition of (1) a specific list of countries (2) to be added under a specific heading (e.g. a nested list within a paramater, such as "supported by" under "belligerent"). The list of countries and their designation in the infobox must be in the body and properly sourced. The list should also be short (although I have no numerical cut-off for how long is too long), which might mean grouping the countries somehow (e.g. "NATO" instead of listing individual members), or listing the "major" countries with the last entry being something like "... and XX additional countries", or some other creative solution. This RFC close does not prevent anyone from launching such a new, more narrowly-focused, RFC at any time, although a pre-RFC discussion may help, and if that discussion leads to consensus on the talk page, a full RFC may not be required.

In sum, I believe this RFC has done as much as it can to hone consensus, and while it didn't achieve consensus, it did illuminate the issues, and hopefully paved the way for a consensus to be reached on this topic through further discussion going forward. (non-admin closure) Levivich 21:34, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Should the individual countries that are supplying arms be added to the infobox? - LouisAragon (talk) 23:35, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Update : several users rightfully asked what sort parameter I would suggest. I suggest adding the collapsable parameter "Arms suppliers" (cf. Korean War, etc.). - LouisAragon (talk) 10:49, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

"Arms suppliers" isn't a parameter. You're suggesting using the belligerent param |combatant2a= with {{collapsible list}} (and I'd note that collapsed lists do not work on mobile, they auto-uncollapse, so this is going to extend the scroll length by several scrolls as well). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:34, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

How is there not a WP:Skin auto-collapsing on mobile :/ Maxorazon (talk) 12:50, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Survey

Support as nom. There are dozens of WP:RS making world headlines for more than a day about the millions of dollars worth of (lethal) weaponry that are being sent to Ukraine. In fact, this very article includes numerous of these RS already. In addition, there are numerous articles on Misplaced Pages which likewise list arms suppliers in the infobox, such as 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh War and First Nagorno-Karabakh War (FA-class). Thus I don't see why this should be an exception. - LouisAragon (talk) 23:35, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
To be clear, the FA-class article you reference didn't have arms suppliers at the time it was promoted to FA, plus its current title is probably OR. The 2020 article is not the best example to use either - I remember closing an RfC on that article where the majority position was not policy compliant. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:46, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
Support countries have been sending hundreds of millions of dollars of equipment, including lethal weaponry. Even though they aren't committing their armed forces, their assistance is vital to the Ukrainian war effort. >>> Ingenuity.talk(); 23:43, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
Oppose. First of all, just supplying or selling weapons (like by Turkey) does not make any country a belligerent in a military conflict. Secondly, what exactly list of countries do you suggest to include? This is a long list, and they must be explicitly named in the RfC. My very best wishes (talk) 23:47, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Also, per comment by ProcrastinatingReader, one needs multiple RS saying that "country X is a participants of a war against Russia", not that "country X delivered weapons to Ukraine". Claim that delivering weapons makes country X a participant of the war against Russia would be WP:SYN. My very best wishes (talk) 00:48, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Oppose: UK, Poland, Germany, Netherlands, etc., cannot be labelled as "belligerents" by any reasonable definition. Any of them would deny that they are participants in a war against Russia. The claim needs to be contextualised and explained, which is best done in the body (incl the lead), lest people start thinking half of Europe is at war with Russia, which would be quite problematic indeed. I also think it's an excess emphasis on Western military involvement; the equipment I'm sure is valuable but as the Ukrainian President said they're defending Ukraine alone and, absent further context and considerations (best done in the body, as infoboxes are space-limited), that does seem correct. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:51, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
Support obviously - only if USA is at the top of the list. Let the peacekeeping friendly USA take the spotlight with the peacekeeping friendly Russians.Maxorazon (talk) 23:53, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
Support - most articles have countries that sent support to any belligerant in the infobox, so i think that it would make sense for it be the same here. EpicWikiLad (talk) 00:00, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Support - this is a significant part of the story. --Surv1v4l1st 00:30, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Support if they can be reliably sourced or are otherwise notable for inclusion. --lomrjyo (talk) 00:39, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Oppose. per My very best wishes and ProcrastinatingReader. Much of NATO and the EU as well as the US is selling or giving weaponry, or has done so. Any list would be absurdly long and fail to give context. The infobox is not the best place for this information and supplying arms certainly does not make a country a 'belligerent'. Even with more 'normal' wars, this would not be done ordinarily. Of course this is a significant part of the story, but that story is not simplisticly reducible to an infobox list. Pincrete (talk) 00:49, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Question and alternative How big is this list going to be? An extensive list would not fit with WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. An infobox is intended to be an "at a glance summary". Bloating an infobox with extensive and intricate detail defeats the purpose. Also, the infobox detail must be verifiable and supported by the body of the article. I am not opposed to such inclusions subject to the preceding. However, I am almost certain that such a list would quickly become inconsistent with WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. The alternative is to place a note that would direct the reader to a section in the article eg - See section Foreign military support to Ukraine for countries that have supplied material aid and arms to the Ukraine. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:19, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

PS adding what would be an extensive list becomes a matter of WP:ACCESS. Collapsed lists do not display as collapsed on mobile devices. Consequently, a mobile user must navigate past a bloated infobox to even get to the second para of the lead. Links to a section and, even better, to an article are the best options to indicate "support" from the infobox. Cinderella157 (talk) 13:37, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Support The arms shipments and now calls for foreign volunteers is not an isolated incident and appears to occur on a continuous basis, with vocal government support from the supplying nations. The inclusion of individual countries supplying weaponry appears in other major conflict pages including the Vietnam War and Iran–Iraq War. This precedent, in conjunction to the ongoing aid, provides added weight that such information should be added to this conflict. ElderZamzam (talk) 01:54, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Comment, good point. I'd add the Korean War article might be a good guide for layout.--Surv1v4l1st 05:12, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes, very good find. I like how it is broken down into sub-categories. ElderZamzam (talk) 05:19, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Support per precedent and if reliable sources indicate the arms support is related to the invasion. Suggest adding the European Union. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 02:49, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Support but only if they are clearly indicated as providing arms and not as belligerents. A separate portion of the infobox would be helpful if the infobox can be tailored that way. (Summoned by bot) Robert McClenon (talk) 03:06, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Support - Clearly analogous to the "supported by" section in the Iran-Iraq war infobox. Meets the H:IB criteria for infobox inclusion. 李艾连 (talk) 04:34, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Support per Robert McClenon. Peter Ormond 💬 07:04, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Strong support Although I suggest the title be called Arms Suppliers unless countries are not providing support beyond supplying weapons. Viewsridge (talk) 08:56, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
General support - This is common practice and actually communicates something important about the conflict appropriate for a summary, though if need be make it a collapsible list or direct it to a section (and inevitable new article) on "Foreign support for Ukraine" or something. -Indy beetle (talk) 09:19, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Oppose. In the belligerent section should’t be included in any form the name of countries which are just selling weapons to one or even both factions, without fielding any soldier nor shooting any bullet. The process is just a supply of weapons, no different from what always happens between countries. The said countries are not involved in the conflict, nor have received any aggression from Ukraine or the Russian Federation. The fact that military competence is the cornerstone of statehood and sovereignty shouldn’t be a push for including as participant in a war every country that has shown preference or hatred for a determined part in conflict. --Foghe (talk) 09:55, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Oppose Copying my statement from the previous survey. Only entities participating in combat operations should be included as belligerents. I understand the desire to include ever more information in the infobox, but it is one area where we should be ruthlessly prioritising. Too many conflict infoboxs end up overburdened with minor details, and it simply distracts from the essence of the situation. Ukrainian is at war. NATO is not. --RaiderAspect (talk) 10:54, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Seems you didn't read the RfC. I never mentioned NATO. - LouisAragon (talk) 10:57, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

I did. However my position that only entities participating in combat operations should be listed in the infobox applies just as much to the Netherlands or Estonia as it does to NATO. --RaiderAspect (talk) 11:48, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Support As long as it is material support and not merely diplomatic. --NoonIcarus (talk) 12:13, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

A lot of countries (may be around 40) have provided some support that was not merely diplomatic, including imposing sanctions, even Switzerland. And even Finland promised to supply weapons. Sure, this should be noted on the page, but listing all of them in "belligerent" section would be misleading. My very best wishes (talk) 19:23, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Support They are included in similar articles so I don't see why this should be an exception. The supply of (at least) hundreds of millions of $ worth of military aid is not a "minor detail", especially when you take into account Ukraine's yearly military budget of around $5 billion. Qowert (talk) 13:53, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Oppose under the basis this should be elaborated on beyond a simple infobox mention. The International reactions section would, I believe, be more appropiate, and enable more contextual elaboration. Calling them belligerents is a bit overboard though, even if it is for organizational purposes. Mooshua1857 (talk) 20:27, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Oppose. This is exactly the kind of thing that shouldn't go in the infobox; it would lead to infoboxes that are huge and useless for... well, most wars. For example, 1948 Arab–Israeli War correctly does not include Czechoslovakia as a belligerent on the Israeli side, despite their arms support for Israel being so huge and significant that there's an entire article on it at Arms shipments from Czechoslovakia to Israel 1947–1949. And that's correct: for basically every single Cold War conflict, we'd have a useless infobox of half the countries in the world if we adopted such a lax standard. Now, if something like armed Ukrainian insurgents start operating out of Poland with Polish support, then we can talk... but not merely arms shipments. (Canvass warning: saw this RFC on a neutral request for comment at the WP:DISCORD.) SnowFire (talk) 21:26, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Support Relevant, suppliers are partial belligerents in all cases, and main belligerents in some ( Iran-Saudi Arabia proxy war.)
Acceptance criteria would include:
- Listing the countries as arms suppliers
- Listing the countries as supporters
- Listing the countries individually
- Listing the countries under groupings (like NATO)
- When combined with other reasons, and if this extends over time, listing the country as a main belligerent. --TZubiri (talk) 01:00, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
'Support As previously mentioned by others, this adds to the value of the article, is important information and it demonstrates which countries support the Ukraine by action and reflects values exceeding hundreds of millions of dollars. Jurisdicta (talk) 06:07, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
Support if we're listing them as arms suppliers and not "belligerents". I myself came to this page to see who had officially sent Ukraine lethal aid, it would have been useful information to have clearly listed. I don't support them being listed as belligerents, however. NATO nations are going to great lengths to avoid ending up at war with Russia, and while I personally don't understand why shooting a Russian plane down is a declaration of war but funnelling weapons to Ukraine and explicitly trying to bankrupt Russia are not, that appears to be the reality of the situation. John Bullock (talk) 11:15, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
~~Provisional support~~ (edit: on reflection, I now oppose adding this per Lyndaship's point about the difficulty of distinguishing what level of support warrants inclusion and the concerns about mobile accessibility raised below Jr8825 • Talk 08:51, 2 March 2022 (UTC)) - while it's useful information to show, as many point out above, arms suppliers shouldn't be listed below (i.e. within) a "belligerents" section/header, like the Korean War example given above. Either {{Infobox military conflict}} needs to be adjusted to allow for a dedicated section, or the | combatants_header = parameter should be used to change the section name to something broader than "belligerents". I oppose adding it if neither of these changes are made, as it'd be inaccurate. Jr8825 • Talk 11:40, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
Support infobox, so long as it is clearly not under "belligerents". Belligerent has a very specific meaning, and supplying arms does not make one a belligerent. It is however, useful information that would be nice in the infobox (preferably in a collapsible form so it doesn't take up too much space). BSMRD (talk) 12:10, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
Support as per nom.--BlackShadowG (talk) 14:19, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
Support as nominator? Pabsoluterince (talk) 06:43, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
Suggest speedy close to RfC, overwhelming support. Viewsridge (talk) 15:19, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter how much support a proposal gets if it's not feasible (WP:LOCALCONSENSUS). As already pointed out, these infobox sections auto-expand on mobile, which is how 70%+ of readers will see this article. An "arms supplier" list of 40+ anything in an infobox would render the mobile infobox unusable, so it's a non-starter. Infoboxes are not for every single true fact, just the ones short enough to be summarized. (At best, we could have a "see section/list" for Arms Suppliers that was an internal link.) SnowFire (talk) 18:49, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
  would render the mobile infobox unusable Not just the mobile infobox, but the article in general. The infobox, which appears after the very first paragraph, goes on forever (on mobile devices) if it's too long, and it's a heck of a scroll to get further down to even the second paragraph of the lead, even though the actual summary of the events is contained in the lead and not in the infobox. So a lot of people might just not, and that means they're deprived of actually useful information. It's considered a given in web development at this point, to design for mobile devices first because that's how most people consume information these days; I feel like the same principle should be applied to editing Misplaced Pages articles. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:03, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
  Other similar pages show that not to be the case. In the Gulf War article, a whole 40 countries are listed on one side under "Belligerents" and it doesn't seem to be a major issue. But if it was really an issue it could easily be rectified by putting "Supported By" and under it, text linking to the separate page listing all the countries providing arms shipments and aid. SouthernResidentOrca (talk) 06:56, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
support I want to know it, in addition to arms dealers. also those who put sanctions on Russia as it this war is more than just Ukraine now, but that's an opinion. as for the arms dealing it's not just selling there is a fair amount of just throwing weapons at them and telling the Ukrainians here use these. or that is what it looks like.... i could be wrong I don't have proof on hand. Bruvlad (talk) 17:01, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

    i think another way to satisfy this is maybe have a separate list to show supportersBruvlad (talk) 17:45, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Oppose. A pointless bewildering of our readers. The epitome of what shouldn't be in an infobox. Refer readers to the text, or a separate article. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:30, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
Support. It's my perception and many readers' that the rule is actual belligerents are listed directly in the infobox, and material support goes into a "supported by" list. Pretty much every article does this in some way, and readers are able to make this distinction that while the US may not be directly fighting Ukraine, they're a participant in the war in the sense they're sending lots of weapons. I can see the argument that this is technically incorrect based on the definition of belligerent, but the fact is that pretty much all the Misplaced Pages articles on wars list the countries actually fighting and then provides "supported by" in a separate list within the infobox. This isn't WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, I'm advocating encyclopedic consistency with how pretty much all the other articles on wars deal with this issue. If we're going to change this, this should be both a global change and done after the top 6 most viewed pages on the English Misplaced Pages aren't related to the current conflict. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 23:49, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
Oppose this is how things work..... that is two sides getting arms from other countries. Definitely not worthy of being included under belligerents. This paramater was taken out years ago...so we dont list 100 places in the infoboxMoxy- 00:01, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
@Moxy:What about providing military reconaissance in warzone airspace? Fephisto (talk) 12:48, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
Support Significant material support is important to mention. Also per the arguments put forward by User:Chess and User:Ingenuity. --Inops (talk) 00:19, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Oppose Arms suppliers are not belligerents. This will just clutter the infoboxes and detract from the readers' understanding. Arms and equipment are often secured from many neutral countries. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:45, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Bewildering indeed. Nazi Germany would be added to the nations supporting the Allies in World War II, and Sweden in the Vietnam War. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:40, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Oppose Arms suppliers, especially of defensive equipment, are definitely not classified as belligerents. Involved parties in infobox must be extremely clear. Tellarin (discuss) 01:57, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Oppose frankly, this is pointy nonsense, and a rabbit hole that would severely bloat the infoboxes of almost all modern conflicts. Mention in the body is all that is needed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:23, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Oppose Not against naming supporting countries per se if they are actually notable, but it's difficult to say whether supplying equipment by itself is worth mentioning. Maybe in huge quantities, or in combination with other gestures or actions that, taken together, might be significant, but otherwise it's debatable. CurryCity (talk) 07:55, 2 March 2022 (UTC) Propose Alternatively, link to a list instead of enumerating all the arms suppliers. CurryCity (talk) 07:34, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
Oppose mention in prose (if adequately sourced) but it's too much detail for an infobox. Think we're going to hit a problem here defining just what level of arms supply qualifies Lyndaship (talk) 08:04, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Oppose There are way too many countries and individual donations to keep the list accurate.Mozzie (talk) 08:42, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Oppose, because now there is a dedicated article. P1221 (talk) 09:06, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Edit: I would support however to add a link to that article in the infobox P1221 (talk) 09:10, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Strongest possible oppose - Infoboxes should be summaries of key points about an article, not a replacement for the article itself. Additionally, adding these countries with only minor roles to the infobox would overplay their role and minimize the efforts of the actual belligerents. Finally, this would set a bad precedent for other articles' infoboxes. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 09:42, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Oppose Would add clutter for little benefit. Infoboxes are meant to be a simple summary of key facts, and the more facts you try to squish into them the less useful they get. Nick-D (talk) 10:14, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Support as it is already done on conflict pages --Spafky (talk) 13:26, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Oppose No problem with it being listed in article as its an important part of what is happening but would make for an extremely long Infobox which is not desirable for all the reasons listed already. Thx811 (talk) 18:04, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Oppose and move discussion to infobox talkpage - On a basic level, I oppose listing out the countries per User:My very best wishes's reasoning. Listing countries there would redefine what "belligerent" means. That said, this discussion would be moot if the infobox had an "Arms Supplier" param per User:LouisAragon's idea. Adding that parameter to the infobox, then listing the countries under it seems like the right idea to me. NickCT (talk) 19:26, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

I would argue it still should not be used in this specific case. In this case, the issue should be handled by creating a separate list, i.e. List of foreign aid to Ukraine during the Russo-Ukrainian War that we already have. My very best wishes (talk) 19:33, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Oppose as this is against the purpose of infoboxes and creates issues for mobile accessibility. We should link out to a section or a different article for the context being sought here. Ed 21:07, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Support per TZubiri . He points out that this has been done in other pages, and it makes sense to be consistent with them. If this measure is not passed, then Belarus should be removed as a supporter of Russia as well to be consistent. If not, then at least provide some sort of criteria. E.g., if the argument is that Belarus provided recon, the U.S./U.K. have provided sat recon. That they've housed troops, then the U.K. has trained Ukranian troops. At the very least, they should be place under the "Supported by" column, right? Fephisto (talk) 05:23, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
Oppose - infobox is supposed to be sort and concise. List of arms suppliers would be 30+ countries long at this point.--Staberinde (talk) 13:37, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
Oppose - Too verbose for infobox and too unclear now, if evidence of significant material support with training etc manifests then there's a possibility. Battleofalma (talk) 16:57, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
Support - Just look at other conflict related infobox’s (particularly Cold War related) and it’s quite misleading to suggest that it’s just Ukraine vs Russia and its allies. This just depends on where you draw the line. Belarus has not used its troops but has supported Russia by letting them use their territory to invade so why not include arms suppliers. - Fluffy89502 (talk) 17:06, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
Oppose - This has already been brought up before about adding NATO. The request was denied.--Fruitloop11 (talk) 17:58, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
Support - Even if the arms suppliers are not sending soldiers to Ukraine, they are still involved in the conflict. It’s misleading to suggest that is only Ukraine against Russia and the separatist republics when there are countries actively supporting Ukraine. Davidmejoradas (talk) 18:32, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
I agree, imagine "indirect" supporters were removed from the infoboxes of Cold War proxy conflicts, it would be ridiculously misleading. A large amount of readers don't go beyond the lead section and/or infoboxes as well. Qowert (talk) 21:03, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
Oppose due to mobile UX; just try looking at the article as it is on a phone. The infobox is already a very long scroll and imho details should be removed from it (e.g. materiel losses) instead of adding more and more stuff. Also, listing e.g. Poland and Belarus both as "supporters" would imply a false equivocation (Belarus being a staging ground for the Russian attack and allegedly also adding forces of its own versus Poland providing arms and humanitarian aid). So if the very long list of countries which supply or support the Ukraine in one way or another (be it training, arms, aid, sanctions etc.) were to be added, it clearly would have to be in a fashion that demarcates it from direct military involvement. Phiarc (talk) 21:11, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
Oppose This is not what infoboxes in war pages should be used for. They should be in reference to the two sides of the conflict. We don't put arms support in Soviet–Afghan War. Gimiv (talk) 21:32, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
Oppose Should follow the layout used in FA level articles.2605:8D80:541:667F:4DFD:EC42:1E57:5C1A (talk) 03:35, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
Strong support Countless other related Wiki articles give a "Supported By" section composed of nations alliances or groups that provided arms, equipment, or humanitarian aid without direct troop involvement. Examples:

Iran-Iraq War. China, Libya, Israel, Poland and others are all listed under "Supported By", with only financial and/or weapons support.

Vietnam War. Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Cuba, Sweden, Taiwan, and Malaysia are all listed under "Supported By" with no direct troop involvement and only providing weapons/humanitarian aid. It even says diplomatic next to Sweden.

Yom Kippur War. The Soviet Union, East Germany, North Korea and Pakistan and on the other side the United States are listed under "Supported By". All mentioned parties only provided weapons and equipment.

Soviet-Afghan War. East Germany "(Military and Political Support)", India "(Humanitarian aid)".

Korean War. Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Mongolia, Poland, Romania on the North Korea side and Israel, Taiwan, Japan, Pakistan Pakistan, Cuba, El Salvador, and Spain are listed on the South Korean side. Again nations which provided, financial, humanitarian, or arms shipment assistance.

Football War. The United States and Nicaragua area listed under "Supported By". Nicaragua provided weapons and ammunition, the US supplied various military arms and hardware.

Cambodian Civil War. Australia, Canada, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, Taiwan, Thailand, United Kingdom, China, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, North Korea, Romania, Soviet Union all supplied arms or medical aid. Again listed under "Supported By". SouthernResidentOrca (talk) 06:37, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Support (but not as "Belligerents" or any collapsible list, "Supported By" is fine) - Belligerents should be restricted to those with involved troops/pilots/captains/etc actually pulling triggers. Now, "Supported By" is not something that needs to be in every article about any war ever, but this war in particular is practically a proxy war being fought via non-trigger pulling "support", so I think it's particularly relevant for this article. And yes, the list of supporters is long. That's why a lot of people are thinking this might legitimately become WWIII. It's vitally important information. Fieari (talk) 06:52, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
support adding NATO only to support. Beshogur (talk) 13:11, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
You missed the boat on that RFC... Pabsoluterince (talk) 04:33, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
Strong oppose: Listing "Arms Suppliers" may be acceptable someplace but under/within the label "Belligerents" falsely implies a connection that does not exist. Several countries in question have very deliberately limited support to the supplying of arms because this is accepted internationally as nonbelligerent. States have a shared implicit consensus about what constitutes direct military involvement and thankfully their leadership is both keenly aware of where that line is drawn, and for the time being, holding steady on the nonbelligerent side of it. Blurring that line by adding "arms suppliers" in this location is at best shoehorning data into a someplace it doesn't belong simply because we've made the same/similar mistake in other WP articles and at worst giving undue weight to a fringe theory that this topic has involved 25+ additional nations as co-belligerents. This proposal would be a poor summary of the primary topic flooded with unnecessary and potentially misleading details that are already contextualized where it's appropriate to do so: in the article prose. --N8 04:00, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
Oppose: The infobox is too large as it is. Additionally, I think that it's too crude a delivery to lump countries as belligerents or not where there is no clear answer if they are belligerents. This information can be added somewhere else in a less crude way. Pabsoluterince (talk) 06:43, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Pabsoluterince: I propose the question of "belligerence" is one of the few very clear cases in which involved parties (notably exclusive of WP editors) actually agree. Putin himself has acknowledged the distinction saying, "These sanctions that are being imposed are akin to a declaration of war but thank God it has not come to that." He further contrasts the current status quo with the possibility of another power imposing a no-fly zone in Ukraine which Russia would consider as entering the military conflict. (via Reuters) Russia and "the west" have a mutual understanding on this point. --N8 17:07, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Putin says a lot of things, that does not mean they are true. If he thought it aclty meant Russia was at war with NATO they would be attacking us, they are not. Thus that is all just hyperbole. As poitneds out, he contradicts himself. Slatersteven (talk) 17:13, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

I think we agree here Slatersteven. The whole point is that Russia's actions specifically indicate Russia does not view "arms suppliers" countries as belligerent. The refusal of NATO countries to send troops via air, water, or land indicates an understanding of where they have common definition of nonbelligerent with Russia. These parties clearly agree about this definition. It's just the discussion here that seems willing to expand the scope of belligerence despite that agreement. --N8 22:00, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Oppose - Clear difference between belligerents and countries engaging in trade. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 15:24, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

Note: this RfC differs from the one above, in which the inclusion of NATO as a group was specifically discussed. - LouisAragon (talk) 23:35, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
I feel that the RfC question should specify which parameter will be used to add this information? I am inclined to support the inclusion but not if the supplying countries will be listed as belligerents in the conflict.--John Cline (talk) 09:31, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

@John Cline: Thanks, yeah. Suggesting the collapsable parameter "Arms suppliers". Will add that to the description of the RfC. - LouisAragon (talk) 10:44, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

BlackholeWA mentioned in a previous section the idea of a WP:VPPRO to better define belligerence in armed conflict infoboxes. I think that wikipedians should not be comfortable stating that only direct armed forces on the ground can be qualified as belligerents. I am a supply chain advisor and know that, for one soldier firing a rifle on the front, there are 10 other soldiers providing for him in the background. Ensuring the supply chain of war - as far as simply financing the operations, is belligerence in my eyes, and tracking the chain of responsibility up is beneficial for a wider understanding of the reader. The risk is WP:OR, and turning to geopolitics, then philosophy, then void. But some wise geopolitics coverage cannot hurt. I think that this deserves a systemic discussion and attention. Maxorazon (talk) 11:57, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

This is a bit moot – even if you have experts saying that belligerence means what you say it does (so it isn't OR), Misplaced Pages is for readers (WP:RF/WP:AUDIENCE) so we should be using words in layman's terms, as they're commonly understood. My concern is that many people may take "belligerent" to mean "someone involved in a fighting". Jr8825 • Talk 12:13, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

PROPOSED INFOBOX

Part of the Russo-Ukrainian War

Date	24 February 2022 (2022-02-24) – present (2 years, 10 months, 2 weeks and 5 days)
Location	{{{place}}}
Status	Ongoing (list of engagements · control of cities · timeline of events)

Belligerents

Ukraine

Arms Suppliers:

This is how I think, proposed infobox to the left should look like, with a collapsiple for arms support, and note describing what arms have been provided by the countries. Viewsridge (talk) 11:53, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Nice job. I vocally disagree with full alphabetic state. I can find another wikipedia article if you want as precedent, but sorting by descending order on the budget of supplies is mandatory in my opinion. Maxorazon (talk) 16:38, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

This is pretty nice work. Fephisto (talk) 03:05, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Comment. I dropped off a neutrally-worded notice of this RFC at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Military history#RfC_@_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine_No._2. SnowFire (talk) 19:27, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
Also, while I'm here: I stated my opposition above, but if this RFC is seen as passing anyway (which I would not agree with), having a mobile-readable infobox is required, not optional. I would humbly suggest that a simple link to Military aid to Ukraine during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine or an internal-link to the relevant section of this article ("Foreign military support to Ukraine") would be better - just one line. Even if this is decided to be pertinent to the "belligerents" field of the infobox, it's simply not feasible to list so many countries. Note that the infobox at, say, World War I cuts off a "full" list of Allies and Central Powers and simply has an "and others" link at the end, and that's for countries that are non-controversially part of the Belligerents field. SnowFire (talk) 19:27, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, there are two issues here. The first is about recording foreign support to the Ukraine. I am not arguing against that. The second is where and how it should be recorded. The responses don't necessarily distinguish the two issues. There is some perception that the infobox is the best and perhaps the only place to do this. Such an extensive list is contrary to WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Bloated infoboxes help nobody. Even in the body of the article, such an extensive list details would be a disproportionate section. List of foreign aid to Ukraine during the Russo-Ukrainian War is perhaps a better article to link to. It currently lists (almost exclusively) aid provided leading up to and subsequent to the invasion. There is a discussion to merge this with Military aid to Ukraine during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. There is also a suggestion to rename this to better reflect that it is primarily focused on recent aid - leading up to and subsequent to the invasion. Linking is much better than bloating the infobox in the first instance and the article in the second. Cinderella157 (talk) 09:08, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Comment. What about moves other than just being an arms supplier? For example, the U.K. training Ukrainian troops; or the U.K. and U.S. supplying intel and sat recon? Fephisto (talk) 16:10, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Notes & references

The following notelist & reflist consists of the notes & references of the proposed infobox:

Notes

Relevant citations
- "How President Zelenskyy's wartime leadership has transformed his image". NPR.
- "3 years ago Zelenskyy was a TV comedian. Now he's standing up to Putin's army". NBC.
- "How Zelenskyy emerged as the antithesis of Putin and proved you don't need to be a strongman to be a great leader". The Conversation.
^ The Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic are separatist states that declared their independence in May 2014, while receiving recognitions from each other, the de facto state of South Ossetia, and Russia (since 2022).
Russian forces were permitted to stage part of the invasion from Belarusian territory. Belarusian president Alexander Lukashenko also stated that Belarusian troops could take part in the invasion if needed. Belarusian territory was also used to launch missiles into Ukraine. See also: Belarusian involvement in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine
Belgium is sending 3,000 automatic rifles and 200 anti-tank weapons.
Bulgaria is sending 16 MiG-29 and 14 Su-25 combat aircraft.
Canada is sending lethal military aid.
Croatia is sending small arms.
Czech Republic is sending 4,000 mortars, 30,000 pistols, 7,000 assault rifles, 3,000 machine guns, sniper rifles and over a million rounds ammunition.
Denmark is sending 2,700 anti-tank weapons.
Finland is sending 1,500 rocket launchers, 2,500 assault rifles and over 150,000 rounds of ammunition.
France has sent anti-aircraft weapons and digital military equipment.
Germany is sending 1,000 anti-tank weapons and 500 Stinger surface-to-air missiles.
Greece is sending defensive equipment.
Netherlands is sending 200 Stinger surface-to-air missiles and 50 Panzerfaust 3 anti-tank weapons.
Poland is sending 28 MiG-29 combat aircraft.
Portugal is sending grenades, ammunition and automatic rifles.
Romania is sending military material.
Poland is sending 12 MiG-29 combat aircraft.
Spain is sending defensive equipment.
Sweden is sending 5,000 anti-tank weapons.
United States is sending anti-aircraft weapons.
United Kingdom is sending light anti-armour weapons.

References

"South Ossetia recognises independence of Donetsk People's Republic". Information Telegraph Agency of Russia. 27 June 2014. Archived from the original on 17 November 2016. Retrieved 31 January 2022.
Alec, Luhn (6 November 2014). "Ukraine's rebel 'people's republics' begin work of building new states". The Guardian. Donetsk. Archived from the original on 26 January 2022. Retrieved 31 January 2022.
"Общая информация" . Official site of the head of the Lugansk People's Republic (in Russian). Archived from the original on 12 March 2018. Retrieved 11 March 2018.
Cite error: The named reference CNN invasion routes was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
Rodionov, Maxim; Balmforth, Tom (25 February 2022). "Belarusian troops could be used in operation against Ukraine if needed, Lukashenko says". Reuters. Archived from the original on 25 February 2022. Retrieved 25 February 2022.
"Missiles launched into Ukraine from Belarus". BBC News. 27 February 2022. Retrieved 27 February 2022.
^ "Which countries are sending military aid to Ukraine?". Al Jazeera. 28 February 2022. Retrieved 1 March 2022.
^ Mcleary, Paul (28 February 2022). "Ukrainian pilots arrive in Poland to pick up donated fighter jets". Politico. Retrieved 1 March 2022.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nuclear high alert

Was it "in response to the military aid to Ukraine" that Putin announced high alert for Russian nuclear forces? --Mhhossein 02:51, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Not according to the source :/ Pabsoluterince (talk) 04:11, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

It was in response to western sanctions and military aid AFAIK. If I properly recall. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 08:16, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

To tell the truth, strategic nuclear forces have only one level of combat readiness - full-alert posture. So Putin's statement doesn't mean any changes in military service regime, it's just disguised threat. He goes mad because his blitzkrieg failed and turns into position war. K8M8S8 (talk) 11:02, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Not by the looks of it. The source used in the article (AP News) says he was "Citing “aggressive statements” by NATO and tough financial sanctions". From many other sources I've seen, it was due to "hostile rhetoric". See for instance https://www.thestatesman.com/world/russia-puts-nuclear-forces-high-combat-alert-1503049044.html Even russian state media such as RT, which many sources (such as above) in turn refer to as their source (https://www.rt.com/russia/550767-putin-nuclear-deterrent-forces-order/) does not elaborate further than that and simple says "hostile rhetoric". Putin may not have elabortated much further on it himself. Due to wp:blp though, it would probably be best if his supposed reason could be quoted as-was. Is there transcript of this announcement somewhere? 78.78.143.46 (talk) 13:59, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

I consider "'hostile’ rhetoric by top NATO officials" and "'aggressive statements' by NATO" to be the same. Could simply be a translation thing. Pabsoluterince (talk) 07:10, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

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